1 00:00:38,719 --> 00:00:50,359 I'm speaking to someone I've known for almost 10 years, actually, that we know each othe... 2 00:00:50,359 --> 00:00:57,119 So, it was just very lucky. Everything just fell into place that we were able to set t... 3 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:12,959 I really appreciate your support. I've had some amazing support from you. Thank you s... 4 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:22,640 I just want to really acknowledge you for the funds that are coming in, and of course, a... 5 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:42,120 So, my guest today is Alondra Markman, and he's a survivor like myself, or maybe a 6 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:02,079 So, very happy to see you again. I'm glad we got reconnected. Me too. 7 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,000 Sure. Thanks. 8 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:47,360 Yeah. So, did you grow up with just your mother? 9 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:59,360 In front life, yes. It was primarily me and my mother, and that's essentially what I w... 10 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:27,439 So, there were a lot of different kinds of adults around, and some of them had family 11 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:34,959 Yes, I was. 12 00:05:34,959 --> 00:05:36,560 I'm sorry. 13 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,879 Thanks. 14 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:48,160 So, that was your first role, because your mother even, you know, publicly was a sex 15 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:54,240 Yes. 16 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:20,399 Yeah, a wide variety of torture and abuse was happening. I suppose I can just get right 17 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:41,759 Yeah, some of it lethal to the participants' murders. So, that was also happening. 18 00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:50,319 And you were there. Did you feel that you were not going to get killed, or was there 19 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,800 Yeah, several questions in there. 20 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:36,319 So, there's this push-pull that a lot of us, especially when we're born into it, I mean... 21 00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:51,439 Yeah, like in your day life, in your front life, did you even know? 22 00:07:51,439 --> 00:08:06,240 I was in and out of knowledge. Of course, you can't forget things like this, not really. 23 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:20,720 So I have many dozens of altars, some of them quite well thought out and with a lot of 24 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:38,159 Yeah, most of what I'm describing is taking place in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. 25 00:10:38,159 --> 00:10:40,960 Oh, is that where you lived? 26 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:41,679 Yeah. 27 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:49,600 Okay, so you lived on the Lower East Side, and I'm sorry, when was this happening? Wh... 28 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:13,759 I have other family and siblings who are not supposed to exist that I was never allowed... 29 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,320 Okay, so very young. 30 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:37,519 Yeah, and everything I'm describing was already happening, I mean, from birth up 31 00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:41,759 So this is very, very early, like most of this is pre-conscious. 32 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,000 Yeah. 33 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:57,600 While your mother is continuing to be a sex worker, and you're her only child. 34 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,399 I'm not actually her only child, but... 35 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:03,759 But you're the only one that lived in that place with her. 36 00:12:03,759 --> 00:12:04,240 Yeah. 37 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:14,879 This is true. 38 00:12:14,879 --> 00:12:16,240 Yeah. 39 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,639 Good people, too? 40 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:22,720 Not so much. 41 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:29,679 When I was a little bit older, my mother had a boyfriend who was not in the cult. 42 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,840 And so that's part of the reason I'm saying today. 43 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:50,240 I did have a few healthy people around, healthy adults, teachers at school, you kn... 44 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:57,840 But he wasn't allowed to see her for very long because the handlers didn't like me 45 00:13:02,639 --> 00:13:03,759 Sorry to hear that. 46 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:05,679 Thanks. 47 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,720 Yeah, so it's... 48 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,799 These people that are your handlers, were there any that you were particularly close 49 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:16,480 I mean, obviously, I mean, I was very close to some, so... 50 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,360 Yeah, I had very deep bonds with several of them. 51 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:27,519 One whose name was Patrick was like an uncle figure to me. 52 00:13:32,799 --> 00:13:44,240 I think, you know, through all the torture and shame and confusion, I think there was 53 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,200 So, yeah, I have a lot of mixed feelings. 54 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,200 But he would be introduced as my uncle sometimes, like if we were out in public. 55 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:59,200 And, you know, I was alone with him. That's how he would be described. 56 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:12,200 Yeah. Yeah, I was being trained for a wide variety of things. 57 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:25,200 Most obviously to accept sexual violence, to perpetrate sexual violence, to accept and ... 58 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:39,200 So I was supposed to create many children and I did create many children after I passed 59 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:44,200 So this is now you're talking after you passed through puberty, so this is in your 60 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:54,200 Yeah, I'm jumping ahead a bit, but I'm just saying I was basically being trained for 61 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,200 Oh, with your mother as a sex worker, it's kind of normalized already, yeah? 62 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,200 Yeah. 63 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,200 But she also had a non-profit. 64 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:22,200 Yeah, she did. She also did a lot of really good work actually as a civil rights activ... 65 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,200 How interesting. 66 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:42,200 Yeah, so that's, well, I don't want to get, just let it flow, see what happens. 67 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:50,200 Yeah, the cult network uses electricity, electric torture, electroshock quite 68 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,200 So that was the case for my mother. It was the case for me. 69 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,200 And me. 70 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,200 Sorry to hear that. 71 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:11,200 But then also in front life, she went through medically prescribed like mainstream 72 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,200 I mean, part of the idea with that was that it would discredit her. 73 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,200 Of course. 74 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,200 Of course, yeah. 75 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:43,200 So in spite of the fact that her issues came from her circumstances, you know, she was 76 00:16:46,200 --> 00:17:02,200 So I don't, yeah, I wasn't there for some of them, but she went through many 77 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,200 Well, I've worked with several people. 78 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,200 You know, I was never in a psychiatric institution. 79 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,200 I was never diagnosed even. 80 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:30,200 But I worked with several people who were survivors that have spent a lot of time in 81 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,200 It seems to be always the same story. 82 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,200 Yeah, that was definitely the case. 83 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,200 She was very much on the victim side of the network, except that she also abused you. 84 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,200 She did. 85 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,200 Yeah. 86 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Yeah, we had an incestuous relationship from birth also. 87 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,200 Yeah. 88 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,200 That must be so complex. 89 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,200 I'm glad it's over. 90 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,200 And she also abused me, you know, but she presented very much as a victim on the 91 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,200 And of course, she was at some point, she was. 92 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:25,200 She was not so much in her adult life when she was my mother. 93 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:33,200 She wasn't really being victimized, but she put herself in these situations all the ti... 94 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,200 And I mean, she would be raped in front of me and beaten in front of me. 95 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:57,200 And, you know, it was, yeah, I mean, they wanted me to know that she, you know, was ... 96 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,200 Yeah. 97 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,200 Also. 98 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:15,200 So were some of the handlers perhaps better parental figures or? 99 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,200 I guess in some senses. 100 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,200 Yeah, some of them were more coherent. 101 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,200 And so I was able to bond with them more consistently. 102 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,200 That's true. 103 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:26,200 Yeah. 104 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,200 But the rape was coming from everywhere. 105 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:39,200 They were all they were all guilty of that. 106 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:46,200 The normalization of that sex sexuality with children. 107 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:57,200 You know, in my public role, I was even supposed to promote that promote the 108 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:09,200 And you were, were you, do you think that you were being groomed to stay in the network? 109 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,200 Definitely. 110 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,200 Yeah. 111 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:18,200 I was supposed to be a breeder for the whole rest of my life after puberty. 112 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:25,200 And I was supposed to be supposed to, you know, in there in the cult network way of 113 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,200 It was perceived in me that I would make a very good handler myself, that I would mak... 114 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,200 And so a lot of my training was in that direction as well. 115 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:45,200 Right. 116 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,200 Well, actually, I know you to be a very creative, artistic person. 117 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,200 Interesting. 118 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,200 And you're also a great musician. 119 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,200 I've actually experienced that. 120 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:11,200 And not just one instrument too, you know, many instruments and really beautiful musi... 121 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,200 That also runs in my family. 122 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,200 My mother was a piano player as well. 123 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,200 Oh. 124 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:35,200 I think that may be what she was being groomed for early in her life. 125 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,200 Yeah. 126 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:43,200 I mean, what a turn, though, if she was being groomed to be a pianist and then ends up a... 127 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,200 Yeah, quite a turn. 128 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:55,200 I mean, heartbreak is part and parcel of all these experiences. 129 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:03,200 But yeah, I think, I think she really hoped to be a major classical concert pianist. 130 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,200 And that was a dream that she dearly cherished. 131 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,200 Really? 132 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:08,200 Yeah. 133 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,200 Oh my goodness. 134 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,200 Yeah, that's also on both sides of my family. 135 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:26,200 My biological father also plays a lot of instruments and sings and paints and write... 136 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,200 Really? 137 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,200 Yeah. 138 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,200 So yes, we talked about that somewhat. 139 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:41,200 But so do you have a sense of what you were supposed to be on the outside, like your 140 00:22:49,200 --> 00:23:00,200 But I guess what my handlers and my mother had sort of settled on by the time I was 141 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,200 And that was appealing to me and thought about it a little bit. 142 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:25,200 And so that may have been a public role that I was being groomed for a little bit. 143 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,200 How interesting. 144 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,200 Yeah. 145 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:42,200 So do you remember getting like, trained? 146 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,200 Because I do, you know, like for singing and everything. 147 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,200 Yeah, well, I guess I should, yeah. 148 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,200 I was, I worked as a model, as a child and an actor. 149 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,200 I was supposed to be working as an actor from a young age, from childhood. 150 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,200 I was on a lot of advertisements and magazines and things. 151 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,200 As a child. 152 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,200 As a child, yeah. 153 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:17,200 Supposedly, I was, you know, I was just noticed at random in a Starbucks in downto... 154 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:25,200 Like, oh, you know, you have a very photogenic child, like, maybe you want to 155 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,200 Right. 156 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,200 That's the story. 157 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:34,200 Yeah. 158 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,200 But that's the story that I was supposed to tell. 159 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,200 Like, oh, we met this nice man in the Starbucks and, you know, it sounds very 160 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,200 The next thing, wow, you're all over advertising everywhere. 161 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:46,200 Yeah. 162 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,200 So I did a lot of magazine advertisements. 163 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,200 I did a little bit of TV. 164 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,200 It was, like, totally laundered away, which is infuriating. 165 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,200 And your mother didn't see it either. 166 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,200 I don't think so. 167 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,200 Yeah. 168 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,200 But, yeah, and then I was supposed to be an actor. 169 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,200 I had auditions for different films. 170 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,200 Dead Man on Campus. 171 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,200 Yeah. 172 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,200 I don't know these films. 173 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,200 They tell on themselves with these titles a little bit. 174 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,200 And the movie came out. 175 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,200 It was produced. 176 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:42,200 It's like, it's out there with another child actor, not me, because I totally froze dur... 177 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,200 So I think that kind of threw things off a little bit. 178 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:58,200 And I went through the requisite torture for being a failure and all this stuff. 179 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,200 And I didn't do a lot of modeling or acting after that. 180 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,200 So I guess I was on a different track. 181 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,200 It was mostly still photographs. 182 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,200 The challenge came when I had to actually talk and have lines as an actor. 183 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,200 And I'm like, wait, I'm supposed to be silent and not use my voice. 184 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,200 And this is like going against that programming. 185 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,200 And I just couldn't. 186 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,200 And so that's basically why I froze. 187 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,200 I couldn't do it. 188 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,200 So it was understandable as part of the programming. 189 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:58,200 But basically, if I could get past that hurdle, if I could learn to use my voice 190 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:10,200 And if you do get through it, then you're basically on your way to a career as a 191 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,200 But I couldn't do it, I guess. 192 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:23,200 And from then on, my voice was very, very shut down to the point where when I got aw... 193 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,600 mother later on as a teenager, I was practically nonverbal. 194 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:24,600 Wow. 195 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:25,600 Yeah. 196 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:26,600 So interesting. 197 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:36,160 It was almost like you, you're not successful at lying enough, so you couldn't even 198 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:42,880 enough really, because I did some, you know, I mean, not public, I mean, I had a 199 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:56,200 But it was almost like when I was, I felt like I was acting when I was with these, when 200 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:04,620 I was sold to men, I was, you know, going around with this big politician in Germany. 201 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:19,920 And I think that's how the dissociation, the part that I had been made into for to be my 202 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,640 persona was going to be the sort of light and fun and sexy. 203 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,280 I was 10, but I was that persona around him. 204 00:28:34,780 --> 00:28:35,780 to me. 205 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:40,220 And I think that was a big hook for me, that these people looked up to me or they, you 206 00:28:40,220 --> 00:28:42,740 know, cause they knew that I'm going to be a star. 207 00:28:42,740 --> 00:28:49,740 And so they were already, so my treatment was just so much better compared to before, 208 00:28:49,740 --> 00:28:55,980 but I was completely dissociated and then believing it 100% in the moment, like what 209 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,880 Like you weren't dissociated enough, I guess not. 210 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:06,880 Thank goodness. 211 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:07,880 Exactly. 212 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:08,880 Yeah. 213 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:09,880 Yeah. 214 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:17,000 And I was ultimately not dissociated enough either, you know, that I, I mean, it seems 215 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:24,400 that if you have this, um, this connection to truth somewhere for whatever reason, because 216 00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:30,420 sometimes it's just pure spirit. 217 00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:35,380 It's not, you know, I had this person taking care of me in the first few years of my life 218 00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:39,140 and I, and I felt loved by her and I knew what it was like to be loved. 219 00:29:39,140 --> 00:29:44,940 But it's, but you had something that you couldn't do it. 220 00:29:44,940 --> 00:29:50,580 It's, it's very interesting to me that the way that you speak about your voice, that 221 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:03,800 shut down completely, um, like if there's no truth, there's nothing. 222 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:04,800 Yeah. 223 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:05,800 Yeah. 224 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,240 That's, that's well said. 225 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,240 Yeah. 226 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:15,880 So then, yeah, that was probably, it's probably about nine at that time, uh, that 227 00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:37,980 where, um, non-speaking roles, um, it's kind of, it's funny how normal acting terms kind 228 00:30:37,980 --> 00:30:45,100 of blend with these very abnormal things, um, so then I was, I sort of pulled back and 229 00:30:52,740 --> 00:31:01,280 but, um, usually in a sexually exploitative way or in a silent way, um, I remember being 230 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:12,440 used for a lot of different gatherings, parties, like, um, as a sex slave, um, and... 231 00:31:22,740 --> 00:31:30,900 of those years, uh, pre-puberty, ten, eleven, um, and then they started sending me to a 232 00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:34,380 breeding compound, um, a breeding compound. 233 00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:35,380 Yeah. 234 00:31:35,380 --> 00:31:36,380 Okay. 235 00:31:36,380 --> 00:31:37,380 What is that? 236 00:31:37,380 --> 00:31:38,380 I mean, I, I mean, I can guess. 237 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:57,960 um, in Jalisco in Mexico, um, so I'd be brought down there once I hit puberty and ... 238 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:07,000 all sorts of, uh, steroids and aphrodisiacs and drugs and, um, I mean, it's a, it's a 239 00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:11,740 breeder. 240 00:32:11,740 --> 00:32:20,820 Um, um, they, you know, try to induce puberty as early as possible, um, and they put you 241 00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:28,260 on different sexual enhancement drugs, um, and different mind-numbing drugs and, um, 242 00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:40,720 It's because of, because of all the, all the drugs that you're on and the environment 243 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:41,720 that you're in. 244 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,200 Um, and that's the idea, I mean, if, if you're in a breeder role, you just basical... 245 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:52,039 sex constantly or you're raped more properly, just every day, all day. 246 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:58,000 Um, so that was the case for me, um, yeah. 247 00:33:01,060 --> 00:33:03,460 Was that place like, like a lab? 248 00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:08,220 Um, I often compare it to a monastery, to be honest. 249 00:33:08,220 --> 00:33:10,060 It was like a satanic monastery. 250 00:33:10,060 --> 00:33:13,780 It had kind of a feeling of, uh, of a cloister. 251 00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:14,780 Wow. 252 00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:15,780 Yeah. 253 00:33:15,780 --> 00:33:19,200 But it was a breeding facility. 254 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,700 But it was a breeding facility. 255 00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:21,700 Yeah. 256 00:33:21,700 --> 00:33:24,260 So there were other children like you. 257 00:33:24,260 --> 00:33:25,660 Many, many other children. 258 00:33:25,660 --> 00:33:26,660 Yeah. 259 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,840 hit puberty, um, but also grown women, older women, all sorts of people. 260 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:45,120 So it's a monastery where it's not random sex, but it's sex everywhere all the time. 261 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,360 For me, that was the experience. 262 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,200 I think there were different roles that I didn't get to experience as much, um, going 263 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,200 on there. 264 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,840 But yeah, for me, it was basically that. 265 00:33:56,019 --> 00:34:00,580 It was always someone looking over your shoulder and directing you. 266 00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:01,580 Pretty much. 267 00:34:01,580 --> 00:34:02,580 Yeah. 268 00:34:02,580 --> 00:34:07,260 If not in person in the room, then, you know, through a camera or to a mirror or something. 269 00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:08,260 Really? 270 00:34:08,260 --> 00:34:09,260 Yeah. 271 00:34:09,260 --> 00:34:18,099 You know, I actually hadn't heard about the existence of these, such a place before. 272 00:34:18,099 --> 00:34:23,099 Um, I mean, I've heard a lot, obviously, working with people. 273 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:40,039 not at this time, but, um, some of them are, uh, famous or moderately famous people. 274 00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:45,519 Um, one of them, one of them is a major philanthropist in the Seattle area. 275 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:46,519 Really? 276 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:48,400 Um, yeah. 277 00:34:53,340 --> 00:34:57,180 or, um, yeah, a major role. 278 00:34:57,180 --> 00:35:02,380 So the philanthropist I just mentioned, um, I called her the Abbas. 279 00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:05,220 She was basically the director as far as I could tell. 280 00:35:05,220 --> 00:35:07,340 I mean, of course, this is from a child's perspective. 281 00:35:07,340 --> 00:35:11,940 So hard to say what's really going on, but from my perspective, she was the Abbas of 282 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:29,519 and for me, that was usually, yeah, various forms of, um, yeah, just sexual functioning. 283 00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:41,000 Um, I mean, I'd be, I would often be chained up for, um, sometimes days or weeks at a time 284 00:35:47,699 --> 00:35:49,699 How dehumanizing? 285 00:35:49,699 --> 00:35:54,940 Yeah. 286 00:35:54,940 --> 00:35:55,940 I do relate. 287 00:35:55,940 --> 00:36:03,059 I mean, I was also supposed to be, you know, that persona that was age nine from nine to 288 00:36:03,059 --> 00:36:07,140 ten was supposed to be a wild sex thing. 289 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:20,079 I was taking all the time also to just make sure that I was always constantly feeling 290 00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:21,240 sexual and everything. 291 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:22,440 I don't know what they were. 292 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:30,720 I know they were uppers and, uh, and then I was also, but as the persona, right? 293 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:36,920 But then as the persona even made to participate even in some rituals, but this... 294 00:36:43,619 --> 00:36:44,619 Yeah. 295 00:36:44,619 --> 00:36:45,619 Yeah. 296 00:36:45,619 --> 00:36:50,659 I, I should also say, um, I'm calling this a monastery pretty intentionally. 297 00:36:50,659 --> 00:36:51,659 It wasn't just sexual. 298 00:36:51,659 --> 00:36:54,380 There was a lot of ritual associated with it. 299 00:36:54,380 --> 00:36:59,900 And basically to produce the sort of children that they were interested in, they believed 300 00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,500 that, um, different forms of black magic were necessary. 301 00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:15,960 involved, um, prayers and, um, sacrifices and killings, all sorts of things going into 302 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:23,960 this process basically so that I would conceive, um, what they considered desirab... 303 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,680 So and this, do you think that is a lot to do with your blood? 304 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,360 I think a lot of it has to do with that. 305 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:30,360 Yeah. 306 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:31,360 They're very interested in bloodlines. 307 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:46,360 Um, I mean, a lot of other people, other boys, for instance, you know, I would just 308 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:52,940 dying, you know, from, from just sheer exhaustion, from stress, from all kinds of 309 00:38:00,659 --> 00:38:02,659 Yeah. 310 00:38:02,659 --> 00:38:06,579 Well, I'm really sorry. 311 00:38:06,579 --> 00:38:10,460 Thanks. 312 00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:19,340 So you were taken to Mexico, obviously, and then, but you were still officially living 313 00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:20,340 in New York City. 314 00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:21,340 Officially. 315 00:38:21,340 --> 00:38:22,340 Yeah. 316 00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:24,340 I did. 317 00:38:24,340 --> 00:38:27,220 I had many aspects of a normal life in my front life. 318 00:38:27,220 --> 00:38:28,220 Yeah. 319 00:38:28,220 --> 00:38:36,900 Um, so, I mean, I, I, I'd be taken away from New York sometimes for weeks at a time. 320 00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:43,059 Um, during summer breaks, for instance, obviously, maybe not obviously, but, um, b... 321 00:38:43,059 --> 00:38:48,340 be brought back to New York for a lot of the school year and I, I'd have a relatively 322 00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:53,100 Yes. 323 00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:58,380 And then on the breaks, that same with me, like for that year anyway, I was gone the 324 00:38:58,380 --> 00:39:00,019 whole summer. 325 00:39:00,019 --> 00:39:05,699 I was gone for every vacation and then that was when the training was happening or what, 326 00:39:05,699 --> 00:39:08,220 in your case, what was it? 327 00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:16,539 Um, yeah, training, breeding, um, I, I was brought all over the world and different 328 00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:23,380 It's very delicate. 329 00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:27,300 Um, they do a tremendous amount of genealogical research. 330 00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:34,619 Um, they have agents all over the globe who are looking for, um, certain bloodlines, but 331 00:39:34,619 --> 00:39:39,980 also a certain psychic characteristics, um, other kinds of, I don't, I'm not privy to 332 00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:45,300 everything they're looking for, obviously, um, but this is a very global program. 333 00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:58,000 to other places, other countries, um, or they would bring in women and girls from, from 334 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:03,300 outside the U S to me and like, okay. 335 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:06,740 So genealogically you're, you're Jewish mostly mostly. 336 00:40:06,740 --> 00:40:07,740 Yeah. 337 00:40:07,740 --> 00:40:15,180 According to ancestry.com, like 95% or 90 90 something percent Ashkenazi Jewish. 338 00:40:16,180 --> 00:40:20,460 And so can you talk a bit, because it's just so specific, right? 339 00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:21,460 We're talking about bloodlines. 340 00:40:21,460 --> 00:40:25,579 I mean, for a lot of people that doesn't even mean anything at all. 341 00:40:25,579 --> 00:40:26,579 Like who cares usually. 342 00:40:26,579 --> 00:40:30,420 So can we, can we just talk a little bit about that or what we do know? 343 00:40:30,420 --> 00:40:31,420 Sure. 344 00:40:31,420 --> 00:40:32,420 Sure. 345 00:40:32,420 --> 00:40:41,900 Um, well, uh, I'm no expert in this area, um, but I, but I do have a lot of experience 346 00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:53,100 magic. 347 00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:55,860 Um, this is my understanding so far. 348 00:40:55,860 --> 00:40:58,019 Again, I'm not interested in black magic. 349 00:40:58,019 --> 00:40:59,659 I don't know a ton about it. 350 00:40:59,659 --> 00:41:02,100 Like I haven't really researched it on my own, but. 351 00:41:02,599 --> 00:41:15,599 But for some purposes, the Jewish bloodlines are considered essential to the process, 352 00:41:28,599 --> 00:41:39,599 In many cases, as I mentioned before this interview, when we were talking, they need 353 00:41:50,599 --> 00:42:05,599 Well, I want to stay a little bit with your experience also because you also, okay, so 354 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:20,599 That is to say, more deeply into the Delta programming. 355 00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:44,599 I believe in her book, but maybe also in other interviews for sure, that she was al... 356 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:07,599 And when we spoke, you mentioned that something similar had happened to you. 357 00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:46,599 I was sold to a man that I knew as Louis Velloux, and I feel okay using the name 358 00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:13,599 And he was one of my handlers growing up, and I had a very intense relationship with him... 359 00:44:20,599 --> 00:44:22,599 In the mafia, then? 360 00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:33,599 Essentially, I mean, I'm not totally clear on the details, but it's some aspect of the 361 00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:41,599 And I had to do a lot of physical violence towards other children as part of his 362 00:44:52,599 --> 00:44:57,599 How would an audience, I mean, this must all be inside the network. 363 00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:03,599 I can't imagine that there'd be something like that that anybody could ever figure o... 364 00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:07,599 I'm imagining the invitations were very exclusive, yeah. 365 00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:10,599 I strongly doubt any random people would find out about it. 366 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:16,599 All sorts of venues. 367 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:18,599 Really? 368 00:45:18,599 --> 00:45:28,599 I mean, to be honest, I was often drugged and blindfolded and taken to these places, so 369 00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:37,599 I know some of them are in wealthy enclaves outside the city, like in Westchester Coun... 370 00:45:40,599 --> 00:45:48,599 But then there are also versions of it that happen right in Chinatown, you know, just ... 371 00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:59,599 Which is, you know, it seems like just some sort of racist fantasy that someone would 372 00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:16,599 They don't even see what a child is. 373 00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:20,599 They just see creatures that are below them or something. 374 00:46:20,599 --> 00:46:21,599 That's true. 375 00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:28,599 Yeah, like cockmatches, like animals fighting, pretty much like that. 376 00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:35,599 More exclusive, more expensive, yeah. 377 00:46:35,599 --> 00:46:43,599 And you did tell me that you saw some prominent people present at some of these 378 00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:48,599 I did, yeah. 379 00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:04,599 And a lot of the really wealthy people who are anonymous would show up, of course. 380 00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:14,599 And some of them, I still don't know their names, but people in positions of power 381 00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:29,599 Totally fine. 382 00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:33,599 And we can cut it out if you change your mind also, that's no problem. 383 00:47:33,599 --> 00:47:40,599 But also, yeah, let's just, let me ask you, is it like when we're talking about levels... 384 00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:52,599 It's on every level, yeah. 385 00:47:52,599 --> 00:48:03,599 I think, I mean, I saw people who I didn't necessarily know, but I understood them to... 386 00:48:03,599 --> 00:48:09,599 international politicians and leaders, definitely. 387 00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:18,599 You mean clergy? 388 00:48:18,599 --> 00:48:20,599 Yeah. 389 00:48:20,599 --> 00:48:26,599 There were Jesuits specifically. 390 00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:35,599 Many, yeah, many different kinds of, there were officials from abroad. 391 00:48:48,599 --> 00:48:54,599 who were particularly interested in my career as a fighter, apparently. 392 00:48:54,599 --> 00:49:02,599 Yeah, so, I mean, there seems to be a very established practice of these kinds of 393 00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:12,599 Of course, yeah. 394 00:49:12,599 --> 00:49:21,599 Had my scalp, like, ripped off of my head almost entirely and had to recover from that. 395 00:49:21,599 --> 00:49:24,599 You mean you have weapons? 396 00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:41,599 even if you place restrictions on it, people are going to find ways around it. 397 00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:46,599 So, yeah, I was taken by surprise quite often. 398 00:49:46,599 --> 00:49:49,599 I mean, I'm just glad I'm still alive. 399 00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:06,599 sort of under a fingernail usually, that could be very deadly. 400 00:50:06,599 --> 00:50:17,599 So, there were quite a few weapons, but they were concealed. 401 00:50:28,599 --> 00:50:41,599 But I was, and I felt like it was the, so the part of the training in Germany that I 402 00:50:48,599 --> 00:50:59,599 And I was put in a room that had white leather padding, you know, maybe it was a 403 00:51:14,599 --> 00:51:16,599 I assumed that it was filmed. 404 00:51:16,599 --> 00:51:24,599 I assumed that this was actually a snuff film, that I was a child, you know, I was ... 405 00:51:33,599 --> 00:51:41,599 And I know that I had to kill them. 406 00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:52,599 And I felt that they didn't know what was going to happen. 407 00:52:08,599 --> 00:52:13,599 So that's the experience I had that resembles that, that resembles that. 408 00:52:13,599 --> 00:52:19,599 But it wasn't, it wasn't really a fair match to tell you the truth, because I had a wea... 409 00:52:26,599 --> 00:52:28,599 But then we were trained. 410 00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:34,599 We were, yeah. 411 00:52:34,599 --> 00:52:46,599 So the idea, I just have this image now, you know, of the Lower East Side, the basement... 412 00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:57,599 And I'm sure it was also girls, correct? 413 00:52:57,599 --> 00:53:02,599 Yes, also. 414 00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:13,599 I usually didn't have to fight girls, but it did happen. 415 00:53:25,599 --> 00:53:34,599 There was this little thing inside of you that, you know, your truth somehow, you kn... 416 00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:38,599 We have no choice. 417 00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:53,599 Sure. 418 00:53:53,599 --> 00:53:55,599 Well, a lot of things were happening. 419 00:53:55,599 --> 00:54:07,599 As I approached being an older teenager, after I'd been a breeder for already three... 420 00:54:16,599 --> 00:54:28,599 maybe someone like Louis, someone who could, basically, they saw that I had great aptit... 421 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:44,160 And for that to work, it became increasingly important 422 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:52,880 for them to have my consent, because you can't-- 423 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:54,840 essentially, they couldn't trust me 424 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:59,200 to do the job unsupervised unless they had my full consent. 425 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,519 that I wasn't just doing it because I was being coerced. 426 00:55:06,519 --> 00:55:07,960 It had to come from inside me. 427 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:14,280 I mean, any teacher of anything who's good at what they do 428 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,880 will tell you that's necessary for teaching, 429 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,360 regardless of the subject, regardless of whether it's 430 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,120 ethical or not. 431 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:24,840 So I think there's some wisdom there. 432 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,400 it was very heavy when I was about 15, 16-- 433 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,720 where they were presenting me with anything 434 00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:42,880 they could discern that I desired, absolutely anything. 435 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:49,920 I mean, I would desire some actress, for instance. 436 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,560 And she'd just be brought in for me to rape if I wanted, 437 00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,560 or anything that I thought of. 438 00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,400 Or speaking within the narrow confines of your breeder 439 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,320 training, of course, you desire, but then 440 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:05,720 you're completely programmed. 441 00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:07,240 This is true. 442 00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:10,240 I mean, yeah, desire-- 443 00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:12,440 I eventually learned that my desires were much broader 444 00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,200 than I had been led to believe, thankfully, 445 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:16,600 and I appreciate that grounding. 446 00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:39,320 attempts to entice, I guess. 447 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:45,280 They took me to private islands in the Bahamas, 448 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,440 showed me, basically, how some of the trainers were living. 449 00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:54,039 Among others, yeah. 450 00:56:54,039 --> 00:56:55,360 You were there. 451 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:56,240 I was there. 452 00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:58,960 And he owned it at that time, I'm assuming. 453 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,600 Yeah. 454 00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,680 And you came across him, too, by any chance? 455 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,160 I did. 456 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:10,160 I've heard a lot about him, privately, from people. 457 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:15,360 Yeah, he's relatively safe to name these days. 458 00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:16,800 Was there anything that stood out 459 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:25,519 since someone that people know was involved with these things, 460 00:57:25,519 --> 00:57:27,480 is there something that you remember about him? 461 00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:40,720 It's been a while since I've thought about him. 462 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,240 I-- he was never-- 463 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,039 I didn't get that close to him, personally. 464 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,600 I mean, when I was being taken to these islands, 465 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:57,080 I would see all kinds of popular and famous people. 466 00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:07,200 About Epstein himself, he was really 467 00:58:15,039 --> 00:58:19,800 killing to just completely pleasant and affable. 468 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:31,720 And I guess his programming was more successful than mine, 469 00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,560 because he could-- he really-- 470 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,160 he was very quick on his feet. 471 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,360 That's probably why he was in the role that he was in. 472 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,640 Yeah, I remember that about him tremendously versatile 473 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:51,480 and very good code switcher. 474 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,520 And just really, you know, he could 475 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,000 deal with the high-minded and the low-minded 476 00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:03,039 and just kind of bring everybody to their basis level 477 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,720 whatever horrible things they might want. 478 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,880 So I mean, it was a well-run operation. 479 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,560 Obviously, it wasn't just him. 480 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,440 Like, huge numbers of people on these islands 481 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,520 specifically, incredibly disciplined staff. 482 00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,000 Not that I'd want to use discipline for things like that, 483 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,079 but-- 484 00:59:34,039 --> 00:59:36,200 and it works. 485 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:37,640 Yeah, that's what you mean, right? 486 00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,000 That the staff is very well disciplined. 487 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,320 Like, everybody knows exactly what they do, and it works. 488 00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,560 Yeah. 489 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,520 So I can't speak that much to him, 490 00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,520 because I never had that much of his attention. 491 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,240 It's just like sizing me up for something, 492 00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:52,960 and then immediately on to the next person. 493 00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,160 So I can't say I was ever spending much time with him. 494 00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,039 So that was on his island, particularly, 495 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,840 on to the next that was on his island. 496 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,400 So this is at the time when you're a teenager 497 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:09,079 and you're being enticed, you're 498 01:00:09,079 --> 01:00:10,440 being shown what you can have. 499 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,280 Basically, if you follow along, you can be like him. 500 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:24,560 Yeah, needless to say, that was not so appealing to me. 501 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,400 But it's really gross. 502 01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:31,240 I mean, literally anything you want. 503 01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:36,280 I could have owned my own island if I wanted, you know. 504 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,840 If I cared about that sort of stuff more, 505 01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,840 I'd probably still be in the call. 506 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,160 But thankfully, I don't. 507 01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:53,039 So basically, it came to a point where they just couldn't use 508 01:00:58,440 --> 01:00:59,600 that they would want me for. 509 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:03,200 Essentially, they basically said, we're done with you 510 01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:09,000 unless you want to join and make this your own thing. 511 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:13,480 Yeah, so I've heard about the five I wills in the programming 512 01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:18,760 that the children go through these steps. 513 01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,160 And normally, at 13 is the last I will. 514 01:01:26,039 --> 01:01:33,160 let's say, willing participants in all the harm. 515 01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,039 I guess that rings true for me, because they 516 01:01:35,039 --> 01:01:39,400 were trying to convince me very aggressively from 13 to 16 517 01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,880 to convert, or whatever you call it. 518 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:48,320 It's not like I was innocent at this time. 519 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,480 I had plenty on my conscience. 520 01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:55,280 beyond just the cage matches. 521 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,280 I couldn't even begin to describe all of it, the rapes 522 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,200 and killings that I was forced to participate in. 523 01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:08,160 So it's not like I was necessarily above any of this. 524 01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:14,520 I had sadistic murderer alters who 525 01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:16,840 went in the right circumstances on the right drugs 526 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,120 Easily could kill dozens of people. 527 01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:26,039 So I can empathize with that experience 528 01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:27,400 and that sort of mentality. 529 01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:35,960 So I don't wish to indicate that I'm above any of that. 530 01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:37,840 But because you just-- 531 01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:38,520 Oh, we can't. 532 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:42,400 Like no child goes through that experience that 533 01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,400 is prepared to be part of it. 534 01:02:49,079 --> 01:02:50,440 Again, 9 to 10 only. 535 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:56,039 But discovered at age 9 and then trained for one year, 536 01:02:56,039 --> 01:02:58,000 but there was a lot of promises. 537 01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,240 So I think it's the same. 538 01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,360 The promises that were made about what my life was going 539 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,240 to be like, it had a lot to do with wealth. 540 01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,360 Had a lot to do with wealth of fame, of course. 541 01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:10,800 But the respect I was always going 542 01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,920 and the house on the Côte d'Azur, and the yacht. 543 01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,880 I mean, it was all told me repeatedly 544 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:29,760 that I would picture this very easy and luxurious lifestyle. 545 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:30,240 Yeah. 546 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:31,680 Yeah. 547 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,760 So there's a lot to say no to. 548 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,400 Just to mention it. 549 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:37,360 We were children. 550 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,520 And we said, no, I don't think so. 551 01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:43,920 It takes guts for sure. 552 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,360 There was a lot of back and forth for me from 13 to 16. 553 01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,960 I mean, each time I said no in a different way, 554 01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,920 I would be tortured in a different way. 555 01:03:52,920 --> 01:04:00,520 And they would try to basically kill the altar who had said no 556 01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,800 and create another altar that they could talk to 557 01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,760 to start the conversation over. 558 01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,160 So you actually went through a lot of torture. 559 01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,600 Because you didn't want to-- 560 01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,960 From 13 to 16, you did not give them the last I will, 561 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:16,840 it sounds like. 562 01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:18,160 I didn't. 563 01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,280 No. 564 01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,960 What was really liberating for me was-- 565 01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,240 I think it was 14-- 566 01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,960 was my first real suicide attempt in the context 567 01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:37,400 of being tortured to try to elicit my allegiance. 568 01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:50,120 I believe it actually was in the Bahamas somewhere. 569 01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:52,240 It's a very warm place. 570 01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:59,840 And I managed to find a way to cut myself to slit my wrists. 571 01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:01,440 And I was committed to it. 572 01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:05,600 I was like, OK, this is my only way out. 573 01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:10,360 They found me. 574 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,840 They resuscitated me. 575 01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:13,440 I healed. 576 01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:18,880 And that was when I started to realize that I actually 577 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,880 had some power in the situation. 578 01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:23,680 I never thought that I did before that. 579 01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,520 And I was like, well, I'm going to-- 580 01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:29,280 basically, I'm going to have to yield to this at some point. 581 01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,000 Because I don't have any other option. 582 01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,360 But after the suicide attempt, I was like, oh, 583 01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:37,600 I do actually have some power. 584 01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,039 They're trying to get something from me 585 01:05:39,039 --> 01:05:41,760 that I don't actually have to give. 586 01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:45,079 And that was very, very empowering. 587 01:05:45,079 --> 01:05:45,920 Yeah. 588 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:47,680 And resulted in a lot more torture 589 01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,160 and attempts to erase my memory again 590 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:52,079 and a lot of electroshock. 591 01:05:52,079 --> 01:05:55,079 Horrible, horrible electroshocks, especially at 15. 592 01:05:55,079 --> 01:06:03,840 Yeah, but I just wouldn't do it, I guess. 593 01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:05,640 Oh, thanks. 594 01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,079 Yeah. 595 01:06:07,079 --> 01:06:10,520 Yeah, awesome that you're sitting here. 596 01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:14,680 Yeah, because again, I speak to many people. 597 01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:19,079 But everyone's experience is different. 598 01:06:19,079 --> 01:06:21,640 And my sense of your experience is 599 01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,480 that it was like nonstop. 600 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,280 Yeah. 601 01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:25,760 Yeah. 602 01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,320 That you were one of those children who born into it 603 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:29,039 and that's it. 604 01:06:29,039 --> 01:06:32,960 You know, you're just surrounded by these creeps 605 01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:35,840 And you have to befriend them. 606 01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:37,760 And you're a child. 607 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:39,480 You have attachment issues. 608 01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,200 You have no choice. 609 01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:46,640 So that some of those slaves, child slaves, 610 01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:48,680 it's like nonstop, nonstop. 611 01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,600 And like you said, you were used all the time. 612 01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,680 It's unbelievable that you're sitting here. 613 01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,360 I'm very happy about it. 614 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:01,000 Yeah. 615 01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:07,320 that have to do with raising your spiritual vibration. 616 01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:09,000 So that's the other aspect of it. 617 01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:13,360 So it wasn't just that they couldn't use me as a trainer, 618 01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:17,720 although that was obviously the main practical concern. 619 01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:23,440 But my more sensitive handlers were also 620 01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:28,039 making me aware, not intentionally, but-- 621 01:07:28,039 --> 01:07:30,240 oh, I haven't really touched on this yet. 622 01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:34,600 that goes along with the physical battle. 623 01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:35,480 Of course. 624 01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:37,200 Yeah. 625 01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:38,920 And it just plays into how I got out. 626 01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:40,920 So I guess it's time to mention it. 627 01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:45,980 So it came to my attention essentially 628 01:07:45,980 --> 01:07:52,680 that my core vibration, my soul signature, 629 01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,920 was raising to a point where they couldn't harness it 630 01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:59,920 anymore. 631 01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,240 I hear-- I talk about raising your vibration 632 01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,680 in a spiritual context. 633 01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:13,120 I'm glad you wonder. 634 01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:14,480 Yeah. 635 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,600 Because obviously it's on everyone's lips today. 636 01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:21,000 Raising your vibration is like, OK, let's not bypass-- 637 01:08:17,819 --> 01:08:22,859 our vibration is like, okay, let's like not bypass now, let's like look at what you, who 638 01:08:22,859 --> 01:08:25,079 you are, what you do. 639 01:08:25,079 --> 01:08:30,460 Well apparently this is a real thing, it's real enough that my handlers perceived it 640 01:08:30,460 --> 01:08:33,979 and cared about it deeply. 641 01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:48,720 Well, you realize you had power to say no, yeah, and the battle that began then, that 642 01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:52,159 must match on a spiritual level too. 643 01:08:52,159 --> 01:08:56,739 Yeah, that's true, a lot more of my spirit entered my body after the suicide attempt, 644 01:08:56,739 --> 01:09:03,479 a lot more actually, I became a lot more myself, I became aware that I had a massive 645 01:09:10,199 --> 01:09:16,979 I became aware of a lot of spiritual information, a lot of past lives and futur... 646 01:09:16,979 --> 01:09:21,159 I was much more in touch with my guides after that, I mean a lot of people say this after 647 01:09:21,159 --> 01:09:23,520 a near-death experience, it's almost universal. 648 01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:27,000 I had one too. 649 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,119 But just to validate that, again. 650 01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:39,680 revelatory on a spiritual level. 651 01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:48,960 It was, because after that I never left myself in the same way after that, no matt... 652 01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:49,960 happened. 653 01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:57,000 I left my body obviously because I was being horribly tortured still, but I was able to 654 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,439 I would leave my body. 655 01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:14,720 And that also was, yeah, a tremendous revelation as you say, kind of helped me g... 656 01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:20,399 myself on some deeper, deeper levels. 657 01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:37,000 to align with love and overcome fear, isn't this the dual realm here that has basically 658 01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:41,920 fear on one side, love on the other side, and we're just all in between and isn't it 659 01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:46,439 our task really, isn't that a spiritual, what we're here to do ultimately? 660 01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:48,960 Yes, this is the task of all humans. 661 01:10:55,479 --> 01:11:01,920 And of course trauma is all about fear, trauma inducing trauma is all about induci... 662 01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:08,680 And look how we over, I mean, I feel like this is more recent experience for me. 663 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:15,680 I don't know in my childhood, but in more recent in my healing, I reached a place where 664 01:11:24,079 --> 01:11:27,119 of course, saying that, but I don't feel that I'm horribly afraid. 665 01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:32,800 It's more like, I feel more deeply aligned with love, but that's a place that I reach 666 01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:33,800 through healing. 667 01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:43,000 So obviously you must have positioned yourself to begin to heal by that, by that... 668 01:11:45,739 --> 01:11:50,479 Yeah, and honestly, things kind of aligned to help me get free of the cult at that time 669 01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:53,279 in pretty miraculous ways. 670 01:11:53,279 --> 01:12:01,479 So also some, some practical results of raising a vibration, yeah, incredible 671 01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:11,720 started to happen where, yeah, a lot of things I still can't explain. 672 01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:27,840 short version is I ran away from home and I wound up living with my best friend at the 673 01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:32,399 time in high school, because I still had my front life, I had high school friends and 674 01:12:32,399 --> 01:12:35,159 things amazingly. 675 01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:44,439 create friendships that way. 676 01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,960 It doesn't take much as a teenager also. 677 01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:53,960 But it's like, oh, we like the same video games. 678 01:12:53,960 --> 01:13:00,880 But anyway, I found solace with this friend of mine and I wound up living with his 679 01:13:05,359 --> 01:13:13,880 not a cult person, they were a theater family, which was very familiar for me, bu... 680 01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:15,840 as I can tell, a non-cult one. 681 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:16,840 Right? 682 01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:17,840 Plenty of them. 683 01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:18,840 Yeah. 684 01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:27,680 And that was really good for me, so 16 turning 17, I never really went back after 685 01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:48,359 my own at 17 and out of New York and, yeah, I really just started a process of getting 686 01:13:48,359 --> 01:13:52,680 free, which continues to this day, on more and more subtle levels. 687 01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:53,680 Yes. 688 01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:54,680 Yeah. 689 01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:07,640 and then when did the healing start for you? 690 01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:12,359 Well it really started after my suicide attempt, which I appreciated, I appreciate... 691 01:14:12,359 --> 01:14:13,520 of pointing that out. 692 01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:24,279 It really started there, but my conscious self-healing, you know, on the physical 693 01:14:32,239 --> 01:14:38,560 me compassion and they showed me what a more sane adult lifestyle might be. 694 01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,140 For sure. 695 01:14:41,140 --> 01:14:49,039 You know, they were not without their problems, but they were so, so far from 696 01:14:49,039 --> 01:14:50,039 experienced. 697 01:14:50,039 --> 01:14:51,039 So normal. 698 01:14:51,039 --> 01:14:52,039 Yeah, so normal. 699 01:14:53,039 --> 01:14:58,720 I'm just like, oh, like, you know, you just work at a community theater and, like, 700 01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:08,159 no, there's nothing secret about it, like, that's amazing, or, like, my friend's dad 701 01:15:08,159 --> 01:15:13,960 was like, oh, yeah, you work as a stage manager, like, it's like, it's like, I mea... 702 01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:18,680 there's a lot that can go with that, that is called connected, but it just seemed very 703 01:15:25,079 --> 01:15:30,039 like, successfully, you know, they can be okay, you know, they can, like, yeah. 704 01:15:30,039 --> 01:15:39,560 But, burning question, having been trained as a breeder and having been, you know, so, 705 01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:45,800 you know, manipulated sexually from the beginning of your life, when you then end ... 706 01:15:53,079 --> 01:15:55,600 pretty out of it. 707 01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,119 I was very nonverbal. 708 01:15:57,119 --> 01:16:02,039 I was in a constant state of extreme confusion. 709 01:16:02,039 --> 01:16:10,159 But you were not compulsive sexually? 710 01:16:20,119 --> 01:16:27,520 games, compulsive with other things, but no, I kind of froze sexually, which was my 711 01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:28,520 at that time. 712 01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:36,119 Well, that's healthy, I mean, that's a great, that's, I mean, yeah, that's my celibacy, 713 01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:43,359 else first, it seems. 714 01:16:43,359 --> 01:16:50,920 Yeah, yeah, I was pretty frozen at that time, 17, 18. 715 01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:57,079 I started trying to have some girlfriends in my free life, and it was extremely awkward 716 01:16:57,079 --> 01:17:03,319 and overwhelming, and I couldn't do anything sexual for a very long time. 717 01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:18,159 Yeah, but I guess, yeah, in retrospect, freezing was not a bad choice. 718 01:17:18,159 --> 01:17:22,680 Probably saved me from, I could have very easily gotten back into cult circles, 719 01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:27,680 acting out sexually, so I'm glad I didn't at that time. 720 01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:28,680 Right. 721 01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:29,680 Yeah. 722 01:17:35,559 --> 01:17:40,279 beginning I used to ride a lot, and then, you know, always a lot of therapy, and then 723 01:17:40,279 --> 01:17:45,479 for me yoga and meditation, so everything is in the context of healing. 724 01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:46,479 Yeah. 725 01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:47,479 Okay, so. 726 01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:49,640 Yeah, my healing stuff, yeah. 727 01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:58,800 Well, I went to Marlboro College in Vermont, that's where I went at 17, and pretty quickly 728 01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:10,420 There was a Quaker meeting in that area, a lot of Quakers in Vermont, where a bunch 729 01:18:10,420 --> 01:18:15,479 of students from the college would pile into the back of a pickup truck, and we'd drive 730 01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:20,159 over to the Quaker meeting, and that was really good. 731 01:18:20,159 --> 01:18:26,960 That was my first experience of group meditation, you know, a sane group meditat... 732 01:18:30,039 --> 01:18:37,440 It was so nice, like, that was really the first time I experienced a group of people 733 01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:44,079 being silent together with that level of intention, and it's very beautiful. 734 01:18:44,079 --> 01:18:49,760 Just these little Quaker meetings, and basically a converted barn in southern 735 01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:52,199 So I'm grateful for those. 736 01:18:57,199 --> 01:18:59,199 you know, with a non-cult person. 737 01:18:59,199 --> 01:19:05,720 That was also quite informative, and I found someone who was willing to be patient with 738 01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:07,119 my freezing. 739 01:19:07,119 --> 01:19:11,119 That was really good, yeah. 740 01:19:11,119 --> 01:19:15,960 My father was helping me a lot. 741 01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:22,039 Eventually, well, I guess my big watershed moment when I really started getting my 742 01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:27,119 about them. 743 01:19:27,119 --> 01:19:33,760 I sort of still had them, but they were very far from my consciousness. 744 01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:39,680 The thing that really brought it together was I had a summer job when I was about, 745 01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:48,119 yeah, around this time, 19, maybe 20, as a summer camp counselor, and just working with 746 01:19:53,520 --> 01:20:00,680 of intense childhood trauma, like, immediately, like, just brings it up. 747 01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:05,140 And again, like, I was just synchronistically guided to these kind of perfect situations 748 01:20:05,140 --> 01:20:07,279 in retrospect. 749 01:20:07,279 --> 01:20:14,520 The camp that I was working at, the previous summer to my arriving there, had gone through 750 01:20:22,239 --> 01:20:26,359 Everybody was in fear, like, oh, my God, the camp's going to get shut down. 751 01:20:26,359 --> 01:20:32,640 They replaced the camp director with somebody who only does, like, recovery situations, 752 01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:39,880 basically, like, that's his job is to go around and, like, you know, manage 753 01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:51,960 So that whole experience was a pressure cooker, and just, like, being a counselor ... 754 01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:58,960 under all the scrutiny for molestation specifically brought was bringing up stuff... 755 01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:07,300 first really big chunk of sex trafficking memories come back in a dream as I was 756 01:21:08,300 --> 01:21:09,800 Oh, wow. 757 01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:10,800 Yeah. 758 01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:16,000 And I just woke up sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. 759 01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:19,840 Because you immediately knew. 760 01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:20,840 Yeah. 761 01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:21,840 It was, like, intuition. 762 01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:24,760 You knew it's an intuitive dream and that there's no question. 763 01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:25,760 Yeah. 764 01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:26,760 Boom. 765 01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:27,760 It was a memory. 766 01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:28,760 It was a straight-up memory. 767 01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:30,640 It was not fabricated at all. 768 01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:31,640 It was not imaginative. 769 01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:32,640 It was, like... 770 01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:34,199 No, I have no question about that. 771 01:21:34,199 --> 01:21:35,199 And, you know... 772 01:21:35,199 --> 01:21:36,199 Oh, I just mean... 773 01:21:38,699 --> 01:21:39,699 Oh, yeah. 774 01:21:39,699 --> 01:21:42,899 I just mean for this specific context, of course, there are plenty of imaginative 775 01:21:42,899 --> 01:21:43,899 I just... 776 01:21:43,899 --> 01:21:45,100 This was, like... 777 01:21:45,100 --> 01:21:49,059 This was just a reliving of memory while I was asleep. 778 01:21:49,059 --> 01:21:50,059 Yeah. 779 01:21:50,059 --> 01:21:55,340 Yeah, I've had memories through dreams as well, yeah. 780 01:21:55,340 --> 01:21:56,340 Come always. 781 01:21:56,340 --> 01:21:57,340 Yeah. 782 01:21:57,340 --> 01:22:00,340 So, yeah. 783 01:21:56,319 --> 01:22:08,239 Yeah, so yeah, I was off to a good start at that point, found ways to stumble along. 784 01:22:08,239 --> 01:22:16,479 I finally went to therapy, like actual trauma therapy, which I was terrified to do because 785 01:22:24,399 --> 01:22:29,000 practices, doing different art practices. 786 01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:33,079 But I was too scared to work with the therapist because I thought they would jus... 787 01:22:33,079 --> 01:22:35,199 person and I thought I would… 788 01:22:35,199 --> 01:22:36,199 Understandably, right? 789 01:22:36,199 --> 01:22:37,199 Yeah. 790 01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:38,199 I look at your mother. 791 01:22:38,199 --> 01:22:43,599 Yeah, I thought I would be abducted and electroshacked and stuff, which yeah, seem... 792 01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:52,000 Yeah, but I also started studying Zen Buddhism. 793 01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:58,599 I studied with different Zen teachers around the U.S. and Canada, started getting more 794 01:22:58,599 --> 01:23:02,559 in my meditation practice, that was pretty good. 795 01:23:02,559 --> 01:23:08,559 And the kind of militaristic feeling of Japanese Zen, especially Rinzai Zen. 796 01:23:08,559 --> 01:23:11,519 Yeah, it is, a little militaristic. 797 01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:22,000 It was like, "Oh, okay, like discipline bordering on sadism, like, got it." 798 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:23,000 So yeah. 799 01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:24,000 That was actually… 800 01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:26,720 Did he get his end master? 801 01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:27,720 I did. 802 01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:34,840 I had a few, yeah, my favorite teacher is in Portland, still working. 803 01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:39,039 His name is Satya Vayu and he's not really aligned with any particular school, which 804 01:23:39,039 --> 01:23:40,039 I appreciate. 805 01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:51,279 In terms of hereditary Japanese Zen masters, oh, I was just going to mention, Jashu Sasaki 806 01:23:51,279 --> 01:24:00,159 Roshi gave me Dharma transmission, where you kind of are empowered to do some teaching 807 01:24:00,159 --> 01:24:03,359 or to share something with others. 808 01:24:03,359 --> 01:24:04,359 Beautiful. 809 01:24:04,359 --> 01:24:05,359 Yeah. 810 01:24:05,359 --> 01:24:06,359 Which you do also. 811 01:24:06,359 --> 01:24:08,960 Which I do, yeah. 812 01:24:15,220 --> 01:24:23,319 And when I was, yeah, 25 or so, found a wonderful trauma therapy place, the Crime 813 01:24:23,319 --> 01:24:25,679 Center in New York City. 814 01:24:25,679 --> 01:24:26,679 Wow. 815 01:24:26,679 --> 01:24:29,559 Yeah, strongly recommend it. 816 01:24:29,559 --> 01:24:33,439 Wow. 817 01:24:41,659 --> 01:24:45,779 When I began that process, I was still in a semi-verbal state. 818 01:24:45,779 --> 01:24:50,880 And when I came out of it, I was like speaking as I am now. 819 01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:58,920 So that in and of itself is quite indicative of the power of good trauma therapy. 820 01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:10,760 It came in waves. 821 01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:14,800 My girlfriend at the time noticed it happening, and it was basically like, oh, 822 01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:16,920 in complete sentences. 823 01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:23,000 And then like a few months later, you're talking in paragraphs. 824 01:25:31,960 --> 01:25:38,359 I think it really accelerated after my primary therapist earned my trust. 825 01:25:38,359 --> 01:25:43,159 And that was the first time I actually trusted another human being. 826 01:25:43,159 --> 01:25:49,159 And trust is radical in what it can do, yeah. 827 01:25:49,159 --> 01:25:51,559 And that allowed you then to speak the truth. 828 01:25:51,559 --> 01:25:52,559 Yeah. 829 01:25:59,439 --> 01:26:06,159 about wasting everyone's time, like, oh, I don't know what to talk about, and just 830 01:26:06,159 --> 01:26:08,760 getting the message, like, talk about whatever you want. 831 01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:12,039 This is your time, you know, very nurturing. 832 01:26:12,039 --> 01:26:20,639 Fortunately, the therapist that I had had a lot of experience working with teenagers. 833 01:26:24,319 --> 01:26:27,920 still very much one on the inside. 834 01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:32,239 So it was a good fit for me. 835 01:26:32,239 --> 01:26:35,639 She just kept holding the space for me. 836 01:26:35,639 --> 01:26:40,479 And yeah, eventually I decided I could talk about actual trauma, like we didn't talk 837 01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:42,279 any actual trauma. 838 01:26:42,279 --> 01:26:46,920 That was also a really key, like, to not overwhelm me. 839 01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:56,880 So they were, we were in it to win it. 840 01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:03,719 I mean, yeah, honestly, I think this is kind of good advice for providers working with 841 01:27:03,719 --> 01:27:07,899 people who have really extreme trauma background and no therapy background. 842 01:27:07,899 --> 01:27:14,279 Like it's good to start out really, really slow, like really slow. 843 01:27:20,019 --> 01:27:25,000 come to me, they don't know their history, really, but they come to me. 844 01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:31,559 So you know, I'll just ask how are you, you know, but some sessions in and they're 845 01:27:31,559 --> 01:27:36,059 memories of SRA. 846 01:27:36,059 --> 01:27:37,059 This is true. 847 01:27:37,059 --> 01:27:38,359 I shouldn't speak for everybody. 848 01:27:45,719 --> 01:27:46,719 Yeah. 849 01:27:46,719 --> 01:27:47,719 All right. 850 01:27:47,719 --> 01:27:48,719 Never mind the blanket statements. 851 01:27:48,719 --> 01:27:50,840 We'll just throw those out. 852 01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:59,279 Well, clearly for you, it was extremely important for me that person who was very, 853 01:27:59,279 --> 01:28:05,039 like these five months, this person was creating an atmosphere of safety for you, 854 01:28:12,019 --> 01:28:15,239 the message that it's all right. 855 01:28:15,239 --> 01:28:16,239 This is true. 856 01:28:16,239 --> 01:28:17,239 We could take risks here. 857 01:28:17,239 --> 01:28:18,239 Yeah. 858 01:28:18,239 --> 01:28:20,760 Yeah, that happened. 859 01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:21,760 Very nice. 860 01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:22,760 Yeah. 861 01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:31,479 So after that, things started coming relatively quickly and I still talked abou... 862 01:28:38,119 --> 01:28:39,800 speaking inside me. 863 01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:48,719 They needed the chance to, well, A, realize that they had not in fact died. 864 01:28:48,719 --> 01:28:55,119 They were alive and had been banished, but they were not dead. 865 01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:06,680 to integrate and grow up. 866 01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:10,559 It's like, oh, oh, that's cool. 867 01:29:10,559 --> 01:29:11,559 Yeah. 868 01:29:11,559 --> 01:29:15,199 I've never heard anyone speak about it this way. 869 01:29:15,199 --> 01:29:21,960 Because of what you said earlier, that the parts that there were when you started 870 01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:33,639 you were tortured until you were then told that this part was dead specifically. 871 01:29:33,639 --> 01:29:45,439 Then now you realize, but I've had dead parts show up and then, yes, yes, slowly come back 872 01:29:53,639 --> 01:29:58,479 up and integrate even, but I've never heard. 873 01:29:58,479 --> 01:29:59,479 It's true. 874 01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:00,479 It's for you. 875 01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:04,479 It's like this realization, not dead. 876 01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:05,479 It's true. 877 01:30:05,479 --> 01:30:06,479 The parts are not dead. 878 01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:13,039 They're just in a state of extreme freeze or believing that they're dead. 879 01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:28,359 Once all these people inside me realized they were not dead, then they started to come to 880 01:30:28,359 --> 01:30:37,719 terms with being part of a big system of personalities and that was a big process. 881 01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:52,559 I got CPTSD, which is the complex post-traumatic stress disorder, kind of th... 882 01:30:52,559 --> 01:31:00,079 everyone who's been through really extreme experiences on a regular basis. 883 01:31:07,559 --> 01:31:08,559 Not from my therapist. 884 01:31:08,559 --> 01:31:14,239 This was actually later, so I had about two and a half years at the Crime Victim's 885 01:31:14,239 --> 01:31:23,880 Center and towards the end of that time, they basically said, "You're doing great," 886 01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:27,279 and we ran out of funding. 887 01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:35,079 It's unheard of for somebody to go more than two years. 888 01:31:35,079 --> 01:31:38,359 It's supposed to be for people in very acute trauma recovery. 889 01:31:38,359 --> 01:31:41,880 Well, it was acute for two and a half years, absolutely. 890 01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:44,199 It could have been acute longer. 891 01:31:44,199 --> 01:31:52,199 It would have been very acute if it was longer. 892 01:31:52,199 --> 01:31:55,960 Basically they're like, "Okay, you're no longer in crisis. 893 01:32:05,039 --> 01:32:11,519 I had mixed feelings about, I was like, "I'm just getting started." 894 01:32:11,519 --> 01:32:17,079 I respect that it's like a state-funded thing. 895 01:32:17,079 --> 01:32:21,840 They have pretty limited resources and I definitely got the full benefit of those 896 01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,199 But you had to lose your therapist. 897 01:32:24,199 --> 01:32:25,199 I did. 898 01:32:26,199 --> 01:32:28,920 That was the painful part. 899 01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:36,880 Well, so then I went through a period of some confusion like, "Oh, I went through a few 900 01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:42,800 therapists who are just not doing it for me." 901 01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:48,000 That's when I started reaching out a little bit more to other survivors. 902 01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:52,039 That's when I met you and I was going to 12-step groups. 903 01:33:01,319 --> 01:33:05,840 people who were trafficking survivors, and then finding out that most of those people 904 01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,559 were also ritual abuse survivors. 905 01:33:08,559 --> 01:33:09,760 We had our group even. 906 01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:10,760 Yeah. 907 01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:11,760 We had a group going on. 908 01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:12,760 Yeah. 909 01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:13,760 A meeting in person. 910 01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:15,279 I mean, unheard of. 911 01:33:15,279 --> 01:33:16,279 Yeah. 912 01:33:16,279 --> 01:33:20,479 That was very normalizing for me, positive. 913 01:33:25,239 --> 01:33:30,680 about these kinds of things, like the kind of content we're currently creating. 914 01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:36,479 I found a little bit of it from other people and really helped. 915 01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:41,399 Every time I would watch an interview like this, a part of me would just activate. 916 01:33:41,399 --> 01:33:44,119 I'd be like, "Oh, that's real? 917 01:33:44,119 --> 01:33:46,439 I didn't imagine that. 918 01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:58,479 But eventually, come back and be like, "Oh, that's real. 919 01:33:58,479 --> 01:34:03,039 I can accept that that's real." 920 01:34:03,039 --> 01:34:04,039 Yeah. 921 01:34:04,039 --> 01:34:08,880 Going to the support groups and hearing other interview videos really started opening 922 01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:09,880 up. 923 01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:11,559 I joined a chat group. 924 01:34:11,559 --> 01:34:13,079 I joined your chat group. 925 01:34:13,079 --> 01:34:15,439 Oh, I didn't know. 926 01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:22,039 Where people were just talking openly about ritual abuse. 927 01:34:22,039 --> 01:34:23,039 Yeah. 928 01:34:23,039 --> 01:34:26,279 100 people in the chat group at the moment. 929 01:34:26,279 --> 01:34:27,279 Yeah. 930 01:34:27,279 --> 01:34:28,279 Wow. 931 01:34:28,279 --> 01:34:29,279 Yeah. 932 01:34:29,279 --> 01:34:32,639 That really helped me start putting some pieces together. 933 01:34:32,639 --> 01:34:34,680 Did you come with your name? 934 01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:35,680 I mean, I don't remember. 935 01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:36,680 I did. 936 01:34:36,680 --> 01:34:37,680 Oh, gosh, I forgot. 937 01:34:37,680 --> 01:34:38,680 Sorry. 938 01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:39,680 Yeah. 939 01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:40,680 I think so. 940 01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:41,680 Yeah, I think I did. 941 01:34:41,680 --> 01:34:42,680 I must have forgotten. 942 01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:43,680 It must have been in the beginning. 943 01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:44,680 Yeah. 944 01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:49,760 It was just when we changed away from WhatsApp around that time. 945 01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:50,760 Gotcha. 946 01:34:50,760 --> 01:34:51,760 Yeah. 947 01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:52,760 Yeah. 948 01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:54,920 I was on WhatsApp when I joined. 949 01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:55,920 Yeah. 950 01:34:55,920 --> 01:34:56,920 Yeah. 951 01:34:56,920 --> 01:35:07,840 And then also, I had a new spiritual teacher at that time who kind of covered this a 952 01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:08,840 bit. 953 01:35:08,840 --> 01:35:13,359 But she helped me integrate more visioning practices into my meditations. 954 01:35:19,159 --> 01:35:28,439 It was much more, you know, channeling stuff and New Age belief, star seed terminology 955 01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:31,960 kind of started coming into my life. 956 01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:37,279 And of course, this was all aligned with the experience I was actually having. 957 01:35:37,279 --> 01:35:39,399 But before that, I wouldn't have used that language for it. 958 01:35:40,879 --> 01:35:47,319 new language and it helped me open out a little bit more. Yeah, and between all the... 959 01:35:47,319 --> 01:35:51,339 I kind of entered the phase that I'm in now. 960 01:35:59,779 --> 01:36:06,759 it's not like me. Even though I didn't have a good first years either, but it was not 961 01:36:06,759 --> 01:36:12,619 like yours, you know, where there was so much abuse happening from all sides. And so 962 01:36:21,819 --> 01:36:32,619 is really no way. I mean, I don't know. Without connecting to the higher power, 963 01:36:32,619 --> 01:36:38,059 how could you ever really heal from that? Because you can't, how could you ever get, 964 01:36:44,579 --> 01:36:49,899 There has to be a force which is greater than the forces that abused us. Yeah. It doesn't 965 01:36:49,899 --> 01:36:56,579 have to be explicitly spiritual, although it is definitely for me. You know, it can 966 01:36:56,579 --> 01:37:02,179 be just creative. I mean, even before I could bear to talk about spirituality, I feel like 967 01:37:08,460 --> 01:37:14,139 myself as a spiritual person. But like before that, I would just say, I believe in 968 01:37:14,139 --> 01:37:18,739 I believe in creative force. You know, it can be pretty agnostic. Like it doesn't have 969 01:37:18,739 --> 01:37:25,539 to be. Absolutely. Because it's about experience more than about belief. Yeah. B... 970 01:37:32,339 --> 01:37:38,059 That's kind of the big thing. Yeah. And then you have to believe that there 971 01:37:38,059 --> 01:37:44,259 is something greater and you had that through your suicide, you know, your suicide attempt 972 01:37:44,259 --> 01:37:49,339 when you went to the other side and had that in your death experience. Yeah, this is true. 973 01:37:55,939 --> 01:37:59,779 just ask if there's something that you, you know, to close it, there's something that 974 01:37:59,779 --> 01:38:07,819 you still want to share that you really want to share. Yeah, lots. 975 01:38:32,819 --> 01:38:37,099 spiritual love, at least you can believe in personal love, because we need that as humans 976 01:38:44,699 --> 01:38:51,939 in all its forms, yeah, is the highest power. And like there's like, no matter what level 977 01:38:51,939 --> 01:38:57,899 you're relating to it on, you can't be wrong, you know, it's infinite. And and however much 978 01:38:57,899 --> 01:39:05,059 of it you can receive or even believe to exist at any given time, like lean into that.