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Recently, amendments to the World Health Organization international health regulations were hastily

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passed behind closed doors in a late-night blitz at the World Health Assembly in Geneva.

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Fortunately, several of the most egregious sections of earlier drafts had been removed.

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However, this rushed approval process provided a big lesson on what we can expect to come

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from the World Health Organization and how proposals of the same ilk could be arbitrarily

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pushed through in the future. And at the same time, we have Dr. Anthony Fauci's recent testimony

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where he distanced himself from a key advisor and denied receiving any of the $710 million in COVID

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royalties that the NIH was paid by pharmaceutical companies from 2021 to 2023. Join us for this

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week's episode of Fallout with a special guest, Frank Gaffney, co-founder of the Sovereignty Coalition.

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fallout with Dr. Robert Malone and myself, Jan Jekielek,

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senior editor at the Epoch Times. Today, we've got a very special guest. We've got Frank Gaffney.

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Frank is the co-founder of the Sovereignty Coalition, and they are both recently fresh off a plane

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from Geneva, having been there as the international health regulations were passed.

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Frank, it's great to have you. Robert, always a pleasure. So what happened in Geneva?

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What happened in Geneva was that there was a meeting of something called the World Health

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Assembly, which is the equivalent for the World Health Organization of the UN's General Assembly.

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That is to say, all of the member nations are gathered. It's usually a once-a-year event. And this

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year, they were supposed to do not one, but two things, two different accords. I believe they both

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should be considered treaties because they're international legally binding documents. One

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that was intended to give vast new powers to the director general of the World Health Organization

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in the event of pandemics, or more broadly, actual or potential public health emergencies

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of international concern. And he could then advise nations as to what they better do about it.

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That treaty foundered for lots of different reasons. There was an official promoted narrative

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about why it failed. Essentially that the emerging economy nations wish to have better access to

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products and technology. This is the official line. The developed nations and their pharmaceutical giants

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were not interested in technology transfer and enabling the emerging economies to be able to produce their

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own medicines, I think is kind of the punchline. Yeah, I think that's basically right. I mean, it was

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parochial interests at the core. That was shelved for the time being, probably not for very long,

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in favor of trying to get something done, anything done on this other treaty, which would amend

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the existing international health regulations of the World Health Organization. Which have been

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in place since 2005, right? Well, they've been amended, I think, once after that, 2022,

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in a relatively modest way. But 2005 was the bigger one. But the problem here was we watched the evolution

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of this from everything that was initially desired by the negotiators into something that I compare it to

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kind of a balloonist trying to get over a high peak. And they had to keep throwing things off the

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balloon in order to clear the mountain. And in this case, some of the really problematic stuff did go over

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the side. But the process was very problematic, and we were there to be witnesses to it. What was actually

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one? Because from what I've heard, I mean, we've discussed this. There's a number of things, from what I

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understand that we're actually stricken. So, as we're flying back from Geneva to land in Dulles,

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both Frank and I are busy poring through the PDF that documents what exactly was agreed upon, or

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if you call that an agreement. And what strikes me in reading the document is absolutely that there's

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this unilateral power, amazing level of power in terms of global public health. It's vested

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exclusively with the Director General. But what also strikes me is a lot of the terms and conditions,

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which are largely inherited from the prior document, which was mostly written as an advisory.

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So you can kind of imagine the WHO as a quasi-diplomatic organization,

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serving as a somewhat of a neutral broker between nation states. But then this new language came in

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with the earlier drafts that was very prescriptive, that was saying, you will do this. You shall build

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this kind of infrastructure. You shall take these actions. You shall vaccinate or provide medical

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treatments if the WHO says you should. We had this language come out in the early drafts that could

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be traced back to our administration that was, you know, frankly, authoritarian and very prescriptive

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and very much aligned with what a lot of the practices have been that we've observed during the

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COVID crisis, including mandates and all these other things, lockdowns, things that have traditionally

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not been considered best practices in public health, as our colleagues Jay Bhattachary and others would

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teach based on what the history in epidemiology and public health practice has been. So this language

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came out and there was nine or 10 key points that your group identified and others concurred with

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that were particularly egregious. That language was largely replaced with language

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that was more like what had been in the past, the more... Hortatory, advisory, collaborative.

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Yeah, a lot of collaborative. Remember we said earlier on that there was this tension between the

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developed world and the emerging world. So this document now has a lot of language in it that we might

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say is very pro-technology transfer infrastructure development around... Redistribution of wealth.

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...is another way to put it. Yeah, it's written around the logic that it is the responsibility of all member states

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to collectively work together to advance equity and inclusion

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and to enable the development of infrastructure and capacity and the transfer of technology

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into these developing nation states so that they can produce their own medicines, basically.

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Yeah. So it's agreement in principle. Yeah.

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They kicked the thing down the road, but again, not very far. But to your larger point,

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what they've done in setting the stage with what's left in the balloon is the precursor to any number

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of subsequent changes, which using the precedent that they've just established or established most

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recently this weekend is going to enable them at will to return to some of those really egregious and

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worrying things. Just to provide a bit of context, you have many hats, Frank, but one of them is your

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leadership and co-founding role in this group called the Sovereignty Coalition that I've been watching

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and have been kind of at the periphery of for quite a while now. We think of you as a member.

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Okay. Well, that's kind. A member in absentia a lot of times. But you and your group, I think, have been

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providing consistent leadership and analysis, detailed analysis of this process now for over a year.

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This very opaque process, they really have not been transparent about what they have been doing,

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what the plans have been, what the text has been. It seems like at every turn they've tried to hide

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things. Well, they have. Actually, it's not just that it seems this way. It's the design. At the end of the day,

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the proponents of these things have made it absolutely clear that what they seek to do

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is to advance a long-term agenda they call global governance.

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And the truth of the matter is, the American people, and I think others around the world,

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are not going to go for creating some new elite entity or entities that would tell them what to do,

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rather than, in our case, limited, accountable, representative, and constitutional government.

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So you had to do this by stealth. As you think about what has just played out, and the bottom line of

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what we witnessed in Geneva was, in the dark of night, and I mean literally, in the dark of night,

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about 9 p.m. on a Saturday, they blew through. The last day of their conference. The last

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minutes of the conference, without any opportunity to actually go through, let alone have a proper

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public review or debate, what they were agreeing to. And the agreement was done, we're told, with

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only about a third of the members in the room. Some have actually reported that the microphones were

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turned off when it was announced that a consensus had been arrived at, and the agreement was now approved.

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This is the kind of thing that I think reinforces most of our concerns about having these guys run anything,

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let alone anything that might impringe upon our constitutional form of government.

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This isn't the first time that we've seen this type of decision-making emerge from the World Health

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Organization. I like to cite the example of how the monkeypox public health emergency event was managed,

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which was very unilateral and really arbitrary and capricious. It provides a great example to illustrate

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the language that is in what we're talking about now is the international health regulations that were

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in place going back to at least 2005 that are now being amended in this kind of dead-of-night,

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last-minute thing. And so the monkeypox outbreak and, of course, COVID have provided great examples of how they

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actually deploy these steps and action items that are laid out in the document, even as it existed before these

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amendments, in which they have a panel of expert advisors that are appointed by the director general,

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no other oversight. The director general has the full authority to appoint the panel of experts,

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and then from that is derived an advisory panel that's convened around any particular issue that the

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director general may wish to convene it for. And then there's also a review panel that's assembled to look

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at the advisory that comes out of this expert panel. And then that information comes to

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none other than the director general, who's appointed them all, who can accept their advice or decide to do

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otherwise. In the case of the monkeypox outbreak, which is fascinating, is the expert panel convened

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initially to make a determination. He gives them the question to be addressed, and so they address the

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question of whether or not monkeypox, at that time after the Canary Islands outbreak,

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represented a public health event of concern and a potential pandemic threat. And the panel decided

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that it wasn't. At which point the director general, Tedros, Mr. Tedros, decided that he would disband that

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advisory panel and convene a new one, which was more representative of the population at risk for

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monkeypox. And so he convened that panel and they examined the issue and they had a vote about whether

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or not they believe that it met the criteria for an emergency event, which Mr. Tedros decided that that

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was a tie. And so he would just go ahead and break the tie and declare it a pandemic, an emergency event

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that would then trigger all of the capabilities that are vested in the WHO by this accord, this agreement,

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this international health regulations document. This is again established that this process of apparent

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consensus, passing key decisions without actually having a vote, where no one is able to be held

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accountable for that decision. When a true stakeholder or member input is not solicited,

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it becomes basically decision-making by fiat by the director general. It's hard to argue that

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they haven't established a precedent in the latitude to make whatever changes they want unilaterally

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whenever they feel like, because they clearly don't feel bound by their own article. This is article 55 that

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lays out exactly how amendments are to be done and they've just completely disregarded that and moved ahead

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and are busy celebrating. Now, there are, as they call it, states parties, that's their word for nations,

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independent nations, that are raising the alarm about this. And one of them has, surprisingly to me,

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been the United Kingdom, the British government, where there are dissenters and senior people in their

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judicial system that are making the point that this, quote, agreement now that they have moved forward,

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this new modification of the IHRs, is illegal. That they have not followed their established procedure.

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I'm hearing Britain is objecting to this. The United States and France were among the key sponsors

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of this, so they're all in on it. But there appears to be a subset of more European nations that are

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objecting to it. But in particular, with respect to this set of amendments, they were, by their own

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regulations, supposed to provide at least four months' advance notice of what was in these amendments

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before the World Health Assembly could give them consideration. That was supposed to happen by the

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end of January. It didn't happen. So our concern is these guys will use whatever authority and rules

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they choose to abide by to get them accomplished in the future. Let me give you a couple of examples of

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what we're really concerned about here. There are a couple of infrastructure things, as Robert said,

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one of which is a requirement. Now this was in the last one, now it's slightly modified, but a requirement

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to have some kind of health IDs. Now it's described as either digital or paper. A digital ID for health

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purposes becomes a platform for adding all kinds of other information besides your private personal

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health information. They do appear to mirror the agenda in terms of identification and information

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tracking on individuals that has been put forth by the World Economic Forum and the Bank of International

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Settlements. But what it also gives rise to, if I may, is something that can be the platform for

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finishing out the China model that Tedros recommended we adopt instead of our pandemic response. But the

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point is that if you insert into this a digital identification apparatus, you can get the rest of the

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China model which is called the social credit system, the most comprehensive totalitarian surveillance

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and control apparatus ever imagined, not alone in place. And it is operating today in communist China and

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they seek as part of their global governance vision to make sure that it applies worldwide as part of a scheme.

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And I want to just say how much I appreciate the Epoch Times and your programming. It's indispensable

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to explaining just how intent the Chinese are on world domination. And this is a place where you can see

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it being advanced incrementally, yes, but inexorably towards that grand global governance design. And what

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we're going to see next almost certainly, especially at the United Nations, where on the 23rd of September,

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there is going to be a similar effort to confer upon the UN's top bureaucrat, the Secretary General,

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the authority to have these extraordinary powers, supra-national powers over non-health

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emergencies. Asteroids, for example, or black swan events, what have you. And they're going to simply

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try to run, I think, the same play. The other thing I just wanted to mention that really is another example

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of the totalitarian intent here, and that is still in the balloon, is a requirement that member nations,

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these states' parties, will manage, control, preclude, if possible, anything that can be described as

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mis- or dis-information. So this is absolutely in Annex I. They propose the development of basically a new

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bureaucracy that will serve as the socket between the nation-state or the states' parties and the WHO,

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that is basically the IHR operational group within a nation-state. And that will exist at the top

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level. And then they also propose that it being at the intermediate level. And one of the key tasks

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that these groups that will be embedded within the state parties or nations, but will be linked

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basically as the socket back to the WHO, is transmitting information. And under the gathering

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and transmitting of information are these clauses that they'll also be responsible for building

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capabilities relating to mis- and disinformation. And what does that entail? That entails enforcement

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by a censorship. We talk now about the censorship industrial complex and the fact that we've created a

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whole mercenary industry behind this. And it's not a stretch to say that you're basically defining a

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business opportunity for those that are staffing and building the capabilities in this censorship

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industrial complex that will be strongly encouraged to be developed with a two-year timeline and

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monitoring to see if you build those capabilities in virtually every nation-state that is a participant

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in the World Health Organization. What a business opportunity.

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We have on the wall as our backdrop, the founders of our constitutional republic. And I will guarantee you,

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they are spinning at a high RPM in their graves at the moment at the prospect of what the Biden

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administration has put in motion here and what has now been agreed in this very bizarre and I think,

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frankly, illegal fashion. And unfortunately, the president is quite intent on keeping the United States

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Senate, which Robert talked about, has expressed its insistence that these one or two of these treaties,

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whatever comes out, be submitted to them for their advice and consent. And by the way, it is worth mentioning

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that in addition to the 49 United States senators who've taken that position, there are 22 attorneys general

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across the United States and 24 governors who have also said, in addition to the other constitutional

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problems here, these agreements, this one in particular, illegally consummated, will infringe upon states' rights as

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well as national sovereignty and personal medical and other freedoms. They don't want any part of it. We shouldn't either.

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So this is, and I'm hearing this is a big debate within the legal community, the constitutional scholars

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in the United States, is there appears, a case can be made, there's some ambiguity in the constitution

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about the primacy of the constitution relative to treaties. An argument can be made that taking an

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executive action to endorse this kind of an agreement carries the force in terms of creating the

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socket with international law as if it is truly a treaty and that this ambiguity that some claim within

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the constitution built around the logic that the executive branch needs to have the latitude to engage in

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international treaties and shouldn't be constrained by constitutional questions if there is an

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overriding national interest allows the ability of such a document to bypass constitutional regulations.

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And the point you're referring to is that the powers vested in the federal government are fairly specific in

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the constitution. Those powers that are not vested to the federal government flow to the states. And one

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of those is the regulation of the practice of medicine. And I was hearing today in the news

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people talking about the need to, I think it was even in the context of Tony Fauci's testimony

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this morning about the need to empower the CDC to have more direct links with the states for gathering

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and distributing data and providing guidance. Right now we've, during, and it was stated during the

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testimony today that this is one of the things that went wrong in the opinion of some members of the

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House and Dr. Fauci, that the CDC really didn't have enough power to insist on gathering information

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from the states and deploying strategies back into the states. And that's something that has to be fixed.

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And a cynic might say that this is a backdoor way for the current administration to implement that.

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Well, look, just to go back to the censorship for one moment, what they're talking about instituting

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in the United States in terms of censorship in violation of our First Amendment freedoms is in fact

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what the Biden administration was doing during the pandemic. It was working with the tech companies

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and it was going and it was saying people like Robert Malone are disinformers and they should be

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censured, they should be silenced, but if possible they should be deprived of employment. And that's

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the problem here is this is the starting point. And what we've seen with all of that ballast that's over

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the side is where they want to take this. We've seen what they do when they have power in the pandemic.

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We've seen the mechanisms that they've used to accrue more power. This must be stopped. It was illegally done.

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It will have profound constitutional implications, I believe. And there is also case law before the

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Senate, the Supreme Court has ruled that you can't use a treaty to infringe upon constitutional rights

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like freedom of speech. So we'll see how this will sort out. But what we need to do first and foremost

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is ensure that the Senate of the United States advises and consents on this agreement as the treaty it is.

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And hopefully with 49 already saying they're not in favor of this, we'll have ample numbers to exceed the

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one third that is required to block such a treaty. And in sum, and I hope it's not the case,

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but the appearance is that this is a stocking horse or a Trojan horse or another metaphor is the camel's

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nose that's got itself into the tent and pretty soon the whole camel is in the tent. And so there's the

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appearance that that might well be the case. And the fact that this was just deployed

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in this kind of Saturday Night Massacre strategy certainly doesn't give me any comfort that

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Mr. Tedros and the WHO and the World Health Assembly are going to

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abide by their own regulations. Behave better in the future. Yeah, right.

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Could I just put in a plug since you've been kind enough to applaud us. This has been a wonderful

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team effort. But SovereigntyCoalition.org is a place that people can find out more about all of this

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and also enlist in the fight by signing declarations that we have there and sending them on to their

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elected representatives. So Jan, you actually went to the House and sat there during this amazing

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or not amazing testimony by Anthony Fauci today.

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I did. And Frank, thank you for giving us the update. I mean, it's amazing that you

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you basically just both got off the plane to do this episode. You look in great shape for that,

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I have to say. Thank you. The hearing was fascinating in the sense I was only there for the first hour and

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a half or so. I had an interview that I had to rush back to. I have to say, I think that Dr. Anthony Fauci

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is an absolute master at answering these sorts of questions. Absolutely. There seems to be a

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bipartisan consensus that that both Dr. Morenz and Peter Daszak are going to be held accountable for

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something. That's the main. Well, perhaps, perhaps. But there is going to be some accountability.

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But it didn't seem like from that hearing, like it would have to do with Dr. Fauci. It was very

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bipartisan. Both sides of the aisle seem to be relatively supportive of Dr. Fauci, thanking him

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for his public service, his decades of contribution, which was very much in contrast with the prior

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messaging that we heard with both Daszak and Morenz, in which there was a bipartisan consensus

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in the other way that they both wanted to feed him to the dogs, it felt like. One of the things,

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you know, of course, there's all these emails that Dr. Morenz has talked about in this recent kind of

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like shocking testimony for this. That was pretty stunning. The reciting of that email after email

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after email in which he's communicating back with his friend Daszak about these routine meetings that

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he's having with Tony Fauci. Dr. Morenz, your senior advisor for over 20 years, said in an email dated

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February 24th, 2021, I learned from your FOIA lady here now how to make emails disappeared

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when I am FOIA, but before the search starts, so I think we are all safe. Plus, I deleted most of

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these earlier emails after sending them to Gmail. In another email dated 4-21-21, Dr. Morenz said,

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I forgot to say, there is no worry about FOIAs. I can either send stuff to Tony, meaning you,

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on his private email or hand it to him at work or at his house. He is too smart to let colleagues send

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him stuff that could cause trouble. Dr. And Dr. Fauci completely denied

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any association with that, basically made it sound as if Morenz was just fabricating this,

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that it was his fantasy in his mind that he had had these repeated conversations with Tony Fauci.

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Now, the questioner at that time, who is from the Republican side, said, well, this is just further

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evidence of why we need to have more Congressional oversight, because clearly you're giving titles

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to staffers, and then you're telling us that they aren't actually doing the thing that their title

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implies, that this is a senior advisor to Tony Fauci, who's had decades of working closely with Dr.

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Fauci, and Dr. Fauci is positioning himself as if, I hardly know that guy, you know, somewhere works in

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the building, I'm not sure, and it's, you know, that in the context of all the email traffic that

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then is read aloud to us is not, something isn't consistent. It calls to mind that old Marx Brothers

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line about who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes. Just so, yeah, so there's, I agree with

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you, I've been watching Tony Fauci my entire career, and he conveyed, you know, kind of an avuncular

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grandfatherly kind of aura, you know, kidding around, calling the congressman by their first name.

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My sense is most of the committee was already with him on this. There was, there seemed to be no

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appetite for really pressing Dr. Fauci, and he made a series of statements that the vaccine is safe and

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effective, that it saved millions of lives. Vaccines save lives. It is very, very clear that vaccines

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have saved hundreds of thousands of Americans and millions of people worldwide. I'm not debating,

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we're talking about the COVID-19. Downplayed the adverse events, uh, and, and, uh, um,

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repeatedly threw CDC into the bus. Again, you know, there was, the questions were asked again and again

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about the six foot distancing. That, because that was recently in the news, right? This, uh, his

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admission that this was arbitrary and had no basis in science. And so he was pressed on what was his

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science and were there any data for this and why didn't he challenge this? And that that had been the

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basis for, uh, you know, the, a lot of the actions that were taken with school children and they're

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isolating. Remember that some of them were actually in bubbles, uh, or they were forced to wear masks.

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And, uh, this was part of the logic for the school closure was there was no way that we could implement

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a six foot social distancing. And it, it turns out that this is all completely arbitrary. And when

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pressed about it, he basically said, Oh, it's CDC did that. Uh, all in all, he, it was a kind of a pretty

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strong defense of policies, except those that were tied back directly to president Trump.

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And he seemed to, uh, find his tongue, uh, when speaking about some of those policies. And

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notably he, he did this strategy again, where he would link, like he linked hydroxychloroquine to bleach

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on this kind of, uh, false equivalency. When I was saying that if you attack me,

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you attack science, I didn't mean that I am science. What I meant was that when the data show

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that hydroxychloroquine does not work, and there are people saying, Oh, it does, I'll give it to

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people. And we know it can be hurtful to them. Then when you're attacking what I'm saying, that the

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science shows, it doesn't work. And the science shows that bleach doesn't work. That when you attack

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that, you really are attacking science because science has shown that it doesn't work.

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This is strategy that we've seen deployed in the kind of propaganda and psyops around the COVID, uh,

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management decisions all the way through this is, is, um, uh, like this was used early on in the

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discussions about the lab leak. Uh, and, and there was, uh, um, false equivalency made between some of

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the observations that suggested that this could have been an engineered pathogen with, uh, statements

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that the virus had HIV sequences in it. Um, and that was ridiculed and, and by extension, anybody that

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was suggesting that the virus might've been engineered was also ridiculed. This, this kind of

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linkage, uh, where you take one extreme and tie it to something that's actually reasonable. I'll tell

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you something that just strikes me from our conversation. You know, the whole purpose of this hearing

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ostensibly was to get Dr. Fauci to talk about COVID origins, but we haven't talked about that yet.

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Yeah. Because, because he adroitly sidestepped that issue all the way through. I mean, that's,

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that's astonishing. I mean, he, we did talk about, he said, there's this definition which was created

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and according to that definition, we weren't funding gain of function. Yes, the technical

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definition of gain of function was trotted out. And actually I'm glad you brought that up because

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there was one subtle, uh, adjustment in his position compared to what I've heard him say in the past,

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which was that he's always, uh, considered, he's always had an open mind about whether it was, uh, a

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natural origin, uh, or a laboratory engineered agent. Uh, but of course the preponderance of evidence in

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his opinion was that it was of, uh, animal origin or natural origin, but that he kept an open mind that it,

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that might not be the case. That was actually an opening for him to say that this had been the case,

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that his belief was that it could be either. So he acknowledged the, the point that it could have been

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a laboratory origin and some of the questioning, uh, really put him on the spot, uh,

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uh, pointing out in the proximal origin paper, for instance, that the authors, which had, he had

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reviewed that, but he claimed didn't edit it. By the way, that was another thing. He'd reviewed that

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paper before it was submitted, but he didn't edit it. Uh, and, and he tried to kind of create some

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opening for the authors that they had been fair and objective about the possibility that it might be a

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laboratory origin. And then he was corrected in real time. He was fact checked by the questioner,

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um, that in fact they had explicitly concluded that it couldn't possibly have been from a laboratory

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origin based on their sequence analysis. And there was all kinds of talk around, uh, Christian

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Anderson in particular, one of the lead authors of that paper, um, having flip-flopped from a prior

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position three days before in which he was pretty clear that he thought this had the characteristics of a

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laboratory origin to deciding that there's no way it could possibly be a laboratory origin.

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And when pressed how that could happen in three days, Dr. Fauci said, well, he analyzed the sequence

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and that could only be take a day. And so as soon as he analyzed the sequence, then it was clear to him

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that in fact it, it was otherwise that it couldn't possibly be a laboratory origin. They, uh,

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uh, pulled their punches on a number of issues where they could have confronted Dr. Fauci.

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There was a couple that, uh, you know, notably, uh, Marjorie Taylor Greene kind of, uh, got a little

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worked up, uh, probably didn't do herself any favors. And there was a couple of others that made

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statements that, uh, in, in addition to MTG that, uh, he should be locked up or, uh, subjected to criminal

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charges, but clearly the committee had no appetite for that. Adam Andrzejewski over at Open the Books,

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regular guest on American Thought Leaders. And so he figured out that basically NIH has gotten

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about $700 million in royalties during the pandemic, uh, from pandemic related. I had two numbers, one,

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seven, 30, six, nine, six, 90 and seven, 10. And there's a bit, let's just, let's just call it 700

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million. It's sizable, sizable. 10 million here, 10 million there. Well, and so the, the one thing that

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was incredibly notable and he was incredibly definitive on this, he said, I got zero of that,

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right? They said 700 million. So, so someone else did. I, I mean, it would, it would be very

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interesting to figure out who actually is getting this incredible amount of money and royalties.

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Well, and we know his institute was. A lot of that money will go directly under the Bayh-Dole Act. A

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lot of that money will go directly to NIAID. So that'll supplement their budget. And it'll come in

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in a form that really isn't subject to congressional oversight. So it creates these, these royalty

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payments creates somewhat something like a slush fund, just like the foundation for NIH and the

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foundation for CDC are congressionally authorized, basically slush funds that Bill Gates or Pharma or

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anybody else can donate to that those agencies can use at their discretion. Well, that's, but that's

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interesting. So they, so are you saying that people in the NIH don't directly benefit? No, the, the actual

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inventors, they get a fraction of the royalties. And it's interesting that almost all of the top

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leadership at the vaccine research center, which is where the Moderna vaccine was engine engineered,

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have resigned. They're now private parties. They slipped away. Nobody ever hears of them anymore.

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And they're collecting probably until they pass away. And so there's, there's a cap on that.

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And then typically what happens is that a fraction of the revenue goes to the department or entity that

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those people were working at. And then the lion's share in academia typically goes to the dean and to the

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university. And by inference, it must be that the lion's share of those royalties goes to,

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I would suspect, uh, NIAID, uh, writ large in general budget and, uh, the NIH director's office,

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which, you know, people don't realize they think about Francis Collins as Tony Fauci's boss. That's not

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really true. Um, the director can't fire, um, these division directors. They're appointed technically by

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Congress. And so the truth is that Tony Fauci has historically only been answerable to Congress,

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which is why he plays so carefully to, um, Congress when, when he needs to. It's really outside of even

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presidential oversight and certainly outside of oversight by, you know, Francis Collins or whoever

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the director is, the director of NIH actually has a smaller budget than the considerably smaller than

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the one that Tony Fauci was managing and very little discretionary capital. So some of that discretionary

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capital is probably also going to be augmented by this patent royalty. So I suspect that Francis Collins,

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when he was overall NIH director would, was getting, um, uh, organizational, uh, benefit through, uh,

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being able to access a, uh, uh, unencumbered funds that were coming in through these royalties.

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So I think we've reached the end of our episode here and Frank, thank you for being here with us

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and everyone we'll see you next week on Fallout.

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We'll be right back to that episode

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