1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,020 Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fallout with Dr. Robert Malone and myself, Jan Jekielek, 2 00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:24,480 Senior Editor with the Epoch Times and also host of American Thought Leaders. 3 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:32,160 Today, we're doing a very special episode. It's going to be a live Q&A on all things mRNA. 4 00:00:32,740 --> 00:00:38,500 mRNA technology is kind of, I guess, the discussion around it, at least, and the research around it, 5 00:00:38,540 --> 00:00:44,000 is going through the roof as we speak. We have UPenn. We have Moderna telling us they're developing 6 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:50,120 all sorts of products. We even have something, let me actually go through our little list of what 7 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:56,020 we've noticed. There's actually a concept of a self-replicating mRNA technology. We've got 8 00:00:56,020 --> 00:01:03,380 mRNA in livestock. We've got mRNA possibly for avian influenza. We've got a Moderna cancer vaccine, 9 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:10,120 an mRNA product that's got their stock shooting through the roof. A whole lot going on with 10 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:18,100 mRNA vaccines. So, Dr. Malone, Robert, let's start here. Is mRNA technology ready for deployment? 11 00:01:19,740 --> 00:01:27,220 Depends on the use, and we're absolutely seeing a gold rush right now in biotech and pharma of this 12 00:01:27,220 --> 00:01:34,040 opportunity of a whole new technology platform for developing drugs, vaccines, and other agents. 13 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:40,320 And there seems to be a massive rush going into it. So, is it ready for prime time? Depends on what 14 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:45,500 you're going to use it for. And remember that a lot of these applications, people have been trying 15 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:51,960 to find solutions for, at least for my entire career. I don't know how many times I've seen 16 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:58,400 hype and excitement about a new cancer vaccine that doesn't pan out or shows promise in the initial 17 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,740 phase, much like we're hearing with this Moderna announcement. 18 00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:09,560 Let's talk about that first, actually. I mean, it's fascinating, right? And this is something 19 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:16,160 actually that's worth mentioning. I remember when we first talked about these mRNA products for COVID 20 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:21,340 specifically, right, to deal with coronavirus, there's this issue of the risk-benefit analysis. 21 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:28,120 The risk for most people was so low that even if there's even any harms, any significant harms of 22 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,360 the product, that's a big deal, right? You don't want the product to have harms. 23 00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:37,060 But if you're terminally ill and you've got six months left to live, that calculation might be 24 00:02:37,060 --> 00:02:44,720 very different. So, what do you make of this mRNA product for the cancer vaccine that Moderna is now 25 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:50,000 saying it looks very promising? And I think Peter Marks is saying open for business, if I understood 26 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:50,700 that correctly. 27 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:56,960 Yeah, he said this to a recent vaccines conference. And it was kind of a general statement. Of course, 28 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,900 the FDA is open for business. They get paid for anything that they review. So, they've always 29 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:07,520 been open for business. But Peter Marks, remember, is a hematologist-oncologist. And so, for him, 30 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:14,640 this is his sweet spot, is cancer therapeutics and cancer prophylactics. So, of course, he's very 31 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:21,360 excited about seeing new products come in. So, in terms of what Moderna is announcing, remember, 32 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:30,040 this is a co-development agreement with Merck involving a already licensed established biologic 33 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:41,560 and monoclonal antibody that's marketed as Keytruda. And they're adding this mRNA, custom mRNA vaccine 34 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:49,280 that has up to 32 different antigens in it, custom developed based on your particular cancer, 35 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:57,620 to an existing product that's already licensed, which acts by blocking the ability of your body, 36 00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:05,300 if you're the person with the cancer, to discriminate between your cells and other foreign information 37 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:13,140 or cells. So, it's blocking, basically, the ability of your body to recognize self and enabling sort 38 00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:18,980 of a massive autoimmune disease. Well, this is what I was going to say. It sounds like the equivalent of 39 00:04:18,980 --> 00:04:24,980 carpet bombing. And it is. So, one of the problems with Keytruda, one of the acknowledged risks associated 40 00:04:24,980 --> 00:04:33,120 with it, is a disease in other organs as you are taking the drug for your cancer. So, you may have cancer 41 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:41,660 of a malignant melanoma of the skin that's gone metastatic, or in this latest case, a head and neck 42 00:04:41,660 --> 00:04:49,480 cancer, squamous cell carcinoma of the throat, for instance. And that may be localized to that area, 43 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:56,940 but with Keytruda, you can get basically autoimmune disease against any of your organs. So, it's really 44 00:04:56,940 --> 00:05:03,940 important to take a skeptical eye at what is being announced here and was previously announced in 45 00:05:03,940 --> 00:05:12,000 this Merck-Moderna collaboration involving Keytruda and customized vaccines for malignant melanoma. So, 46 00:05:12,060 --> 00:05:17,660 those results in phase two were announced about a year ago. Now, we have these new results from a very 47 00:05:17,660 --> 00:05:24,480 small study in head and neck cancer. I think it was a little over 20 patients. So, phase one, tiny study 48 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:31,760 in which the results are promising. We're not told what they actually are, and it doesn't appear that 49 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:38,000 they actually did the control group of Keytruda alone in this patient group. So, all we can really 50 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:45,640 say is that in a small phase one study, even though this is causing the Moderna stock to pop, what we have 51 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:55,480 is an established, licensed product from Merck, with this custom Moderna vaccine added, and it's, it's not 52 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:03,640 causing problems, overt problems in a small group. What it's really demonstrating is that Moderna can take a 53 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:13,000 sample from somebody's tumor, analyze it genetically, so this is probably sequence analysis, the whole genome from tumor cells, 54 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:23,000 then compare it to the norm, the normal genome from that patient, using artificial intelligence, that's one of the other gizmos that they're using here, 55 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:41,000 which the AI is telling them up to 32 different antigens, which is to say, protein sequences that are coded by the RNA, that the AI thinks are most likely to be tumor antigens that the immune response could be mounted against. 56 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:53,000 And then they're custom manufacturing, apparently up to 32 different RNAs, putting it into a cocktail with this standard formulation technology that they have, 57 00:06:53,000 --> 00:07:01,000 that they use for COVID, and injecting it into patients at the same time that they're giving this licensed monoclonal antibody drug, Keytruda. 58 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:11,000 So that's what's going on. And when you unpack all of that, then suddenly the bloom is off the rose a little bit, as far as I'm concerned. 59 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:23,000 This really doesn't sound that impressive to me. What it is, is a statement that at least they can turn the crank on this particular engine for custom manufacturing RNA vaccines. 60 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:30,000 Well, and just really quickly, there's this element also of the stock price, which probably is playing a role here, right? 61 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000 Right. 62 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:44,000 So that, you know, we don't want to ascribe intent to Stefan Boncel and the Moderna team, but there is this long standing practice in biotech of pump and dump. 63 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:51,000 Particularly in the area of infectious disease responses in which there's a risk of a new infectious disease. 64 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:58,000 A company will create what's called a shelf offering. So they'll put stock on a shelf awaiting some event. 65 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Then a new infectious disease threat presents itself. 66 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:10,000 And the company makes an announcement that we're going to develop a vaccine against this new threat. 67 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,000 And the market cap on the, on the, the price, stock price goes up. 68 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:21,000 And then the company can start selling this shelf offering into that market, raise a whole bunch of capital. 69 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,000 And they don't have to give it back. 70 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:30,000 So then if they never develop that product and the stock market price for their company goes back down again, 71 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,000 because they never actually performed, it kind of doesn't matter. 72 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:40,000 Then they typically do what's called a reverse split and start the whole process again. 73 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,000 So this is the pump and dump strategy. It's been refined by a number of vaccine biotechs. 74 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:53,000 In particular, I don't want to name names because I don't want to be sued, but there could be an element of this kind of, 75 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:00,000 we'll call it a plane to the market with forward looking statements. 76 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:07,000 Well, so, you know, before I jumped to some of the questions, I see a bunch of questions are coming up here on the iPad. 77 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,000 Here's what Moderna is developing right now. 78 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,000 We've got five flu vaccines. 79 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:20,000 These are mRNA technologies, the mRNA pipeline, one RSV, one flu plus COVID, one flu plus COVID plus RSV, one flu plus RSV, 80 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:36,000 endemic COVID vaccine, RSV plus HMPV, pardon me, pediatric RSV, CMV, EBV, HSV, VZV, two HIV vaccines of all things, right? 81 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,000 Neurovirus vaccines, Lyme disease vaccines, Zika. 82 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,000 I mean, basically the gamut and multiple, multiple cancer vaccines. 83 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:50,000 Yeah, I'm amazed at what Moderna is taking on because they're not really that large of a company. 84 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,000 I think they have over 150 clinical trials. 85 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,000 I can't imagine being their clinical director right now. 86 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,000 It must be a three ring circus going on. 87 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,000 And you've got to take this into context. 88 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:10,000 Moderna has had a huge hit on their market cap on their stock valuation because people aren't buying COVID vaccines anymore. 89 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:20,000 And so when we talk about a big bump or an increase in Moderna stock valuation, that is coming off a very low baseline. 90 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:34,000 And it's hit Moderna's bottom line hard enough that they've recently announced that they're canceling plans for an African Kenyan based mRNA vaccine manufacturing plant that they were going to drop about a billion dollars into. 91 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,000 So they've taken a billion dollar apparently right off because they're going to halt these plants. 92 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:46,000 And what that teaches to you is that I think as the venture capitalists like to say, the dogs aren't eating the dog food. 93 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,000 And so they have to come up with something. 94 00:10:49,000 --> 00:11:01,000 And this seems to be kind of a kitchen sink approach rather than targeting two or three specific products that they'll go all in on and put all their resources towards. 95 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 They seem to be kind of doing a scattershot approach. 96 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:10,000 You would never see the likes of Merck do this or Pfizer or any of the majors. 97 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:16,000 They don't do this kind of strategy where they invest in a whole lot of things simultaneously. 98 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,000 They're much more cautious about their investment strategy. 99 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:26,000 So I find this fascinating and it smacks of a certain amount of corporate immaturity as far as I'm concerned. 100 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Well, the one thing. So let's jump to the first question. 101 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,000 And this is a great question. 102 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,000 It has to do with shedding. 103 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,000 So we know that shedding is real. 104 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,000 Let's see. What do I know about that COVID vaccine shedding? 105 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,000 Well, at a minimum, it's in breast milk. 106 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,000 Right. Well, 100 percent. 107 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:50,000 And there's also, you know, multiple doctors that have been working with patients that, you know, there's no other explanation. 108 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Maybe exosomes. It may be exhaled essentially as tiny aerosols. 109 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,000 It may be in other body fluids. 110 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,000 We don't have to go into the specifics of other body fluids. 111 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:13,000 And none of this has been well characterized because the FDA, if it was a gene therapy product, typically would have required shedding studies be performed. 112 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,000 Well, exactly. 113 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,000 So, you know, have no official shedding studies being done on the mRNA products. 114 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,000 Not to my knowledge. 115 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:21,000 Not to my knowledge. 116 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:26,000 Well, because, I mean, it seems like the obvious thing because they are, after all, gene therapies. 117 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Right. 118 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:34,000 Well, and this is why there's been such strong denialism about those words, calling them gene therapy strategies. 119 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,000 And there's a whole swarm of fact checkers that have been denying this. 120 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,000 They don't have any real background in the science. 121 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,000 They don't really understand what they're saying, but they are adamant that these are not gene therapies. 122 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:52,000 My position is, this is absolutely genetic material, whether it's self-amplifying or self-replicating RNA. 123 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,000 Or it's just these standard modified mRNAs. 124 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:04,000 But they are absolutely genetic material that is being transferred to patients in order to cause those patients to get better. 125 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,000 To have some sort of a response, vaccine or therapeutic. 126 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:16,000 And this kind of comes to a point, in particular, if you look at the portfolio that UPenn is developing right now. 127 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:24,000 Where they're going all in on a lot of the classical gene therapy strategies, including ornithine transcarbimylase. 128 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:31,000 Something that UPenn has had experience with, with prior gene therapy technologies. 129 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:40,000 And so this whole controversy, and it's really manufactured, that these aren't really gene therapies. 130 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,000 It's a falsehood. 131 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,000 It's splitting hairs. 132 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,000 It's manipulating language. 133 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,000 And if it was a gene therapy product, which I assert these are, 134 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:59,000 then shedding studies would have been obligated before they ever went into human beings in the general population. 135 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:05,000 Well, and presumably with these new products, there will be shedding studies, or at least one would hope there would be. 136 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,000 And I disagree with that assessment. 137 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,000 It seems like the norms have been discarded. 138 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:23,000 The prior regulatory strategy that is still on the books, that has been worked up over 20 or 30 years of gene therapy research, 139 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:30,000 seems to have just been discarded out of convenience, I guess. 140 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:42,000 And the logic that was proposed in a WHO meeting, chaired by Margaret Liu, formerly of Merck, in their genetic vaccine program, 141 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:54,000 was that once this was established, this tech was established in a pilot situation like COVID, 142 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000 then it could be grandfathered for all other applications. 143 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:06,000 It's assumed that, as we hear stated again and again by FDA and other regulatory authorities, 144 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:11,000 well, there's been over a billion doses of this administered, and it's safe and effective. 145 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:18,000 Therefore, we never need to go back and do those non-clinical or early-stage clinical safety studies. 146 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,000 That's how this is being said. 147 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,000 This is absolutely terrifying. 148 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,000 Let's do a question from, there's a relevant question here from Waters Home. 149 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Will the next wave of mRNA vaccines have to go through all three stages of testing? 150 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,000 No. The answer is no. 151 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,000 And that has, at least as things stand right now, this relates exactly to what I was just saying 152 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,000 about this committee that was established at the World Health Organization 153 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:57,000 that set this plan that once they were established as safe through some initial deployment like we've seen with COVID, 154 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:03,000 then a lot of the non-clinical and early-phase clinical studies are not necessary 155 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,000 because it's presumed to be safe and effective. 156 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,000 Just let me get this straight, okay? 157 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:18,000 Because you've said this a couple of times now, so a lot of the testing, they're not safe, right? 158 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,000 I mean, we have ample evidence. 159 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,000 That's my position. I agree. 160 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,000 We have ample evidence. They're not. 161 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Abundant. Abundant evidence to the contrary. 162 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,000 Right. 163 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,000 Right. 164 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:32,000 But you're saying, as a blanket, your expectation is that around these specific technologies 165 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,000 that are using this pseudouridine modification... 166 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:44,000 So long as they keep the core formulation the same, the thesis is that they can just swap in different coding sequences 167 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:54,000 into the same manufacturing process and go ahead and rapidly expedite their deployment and entry into the general population. 168 00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:03,000 So the only thing that is being debated now in terms of regulatory strategy is whether that specific payload, 169 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:11,000 that specific gene is safe or not, and whether it is effective or potent. 170 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:21,000 And in some of these cases, like cancer, the bar is really low to allowing things to enter into human clinical trials 171 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,000 and also in defining what the endpoints for licensure would be. 172 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:34,000 So if, on average, you have a pancreatic cancer and your survival rate at three months is very low, 173 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:40,000 then you can define a clinical endpoint of surviving pancreatic cancer for six months 174 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,000 and go ahead and get a license for that product based on that. 175 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:49,000 So all you need to do is get a little bit better than what exists right now. 176 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:55,000 That's the way things are in the cancer field, which is why the investment community loves it. 177 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,000 Fascinating. Here's another question. 178 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,000 Mary Beth Bolling, are there other options than mRNA? 179 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,000 That's kind of a very open-ended question. 180 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Of course there's a lot of options. It depends on what you're talking about as the therapeutic area. 181 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,000 There's many different vaccine technologies for just one example. 182 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:22,000 And in terms of therapeutics, in the case of Keytrudeau, we got a great example there. 183 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,000 This new product that is showing significant effectiveness is a monoclonal antibody. 184 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:37,000 So monoclonal antibodies generally have been more widely accepted within the pharmaceutical industry for years now. 185 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,000 This mRNA technology is kind of a new entry. 186 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,000 It's the new kid on the block and everybody's fascinated with it. 187 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,000 And of course then there's classical pharmaceuticals, 188 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:55,000 which are basically oil-based manufacturing processes, organic chemistry. 189 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,000 So those are just three examples. 190 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,000 There's many different technology platforms. 191 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:07,000 But right now this is the new kid in town, mRNA-based vaccines. 192 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:13,000 And it has the eye of Wall Street and the investment community. 193 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,000 There's a lot of money floating out there. 194 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,000 And like I said at the opening, there's a sense that this is a gold rush. 195 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:27,000 That there is just a huge landscape of new product development opportunities and everybody's rushing into it. 196 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:33,000 Now the bloom will be off the rose in two, three, four years when most of these fail, 197 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,000 as is always the case with new biotech platforms. 198 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,000 You know, I'm fascinated by some of these new things that are being developed too, 199 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,000 like these self-replicating mRNA. 200 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,000 And there's also just this issue, I find it actually quite terrifying, 201 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:54,000 the idea that using this specific technology that was developed for COVID purposes, 202 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:01,000 we might just simply be able to not look at a whole lot of clinical trial information 203 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,000 or not even do it in the first place. 204 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,000 But let's actually talk about that after the break. 205 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000 So folks, for those of you that are watching the live stream on Twitter, 206 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,000 we're actually, you know, our main platform, as you probably know, is EPOC TV. 207 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,000 EPOC TV is, you know, that's actually how we keep the lights on, subscriptions and so forth. 208 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,000 You know, there's a QR code and a link right below. 209 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,000 If you would like to join us as we continue with this live stream, 210 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,000 we'd like to invite you over to EPOC TV. 211 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,000 For those watching on EPOC TV, just stay with us. 212 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,000 We're going to take a short break. 213 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,000 I had a vaccine and I began to shake uncontrollably. 214 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,000 We just died 33 days later. 215 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,000 I can't hold my head upright. 216 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,000 I collapsed. That's all I remember. 217 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:45,000 From the very outset, we did not meet the normal conditions required to proceed. 218 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,000 We're going to be talking about the vaccine injured, 219 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,000 which the federal government and state agencies pretends doesn't exist. 220 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:58,000 We went to a local hospital and they treated her like a crazy person. 221 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:04,000 I see this as a breakdown of our bureaucratic structures that we're supposed to keep safe. 222 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,000 I think there's a lot of people that don't know that they're injured. 223 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:14,000 We have substantial data showing miscarriages increased by 300% over the five-year average. 224 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:19,000 Pfizer should have been off the market by February 1st of 2021. 225 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,000 300% increase in cancer. 226 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000 Data reported to Pfizer, it's eight pages long. 227 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,000 They are novel and unexplained symptoms. 228 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,000 Neurological, over a thousand percent increase. 229 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,000 A thousand. 230 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,000 The doctor doesn't know what that is and how to treat it. 231 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,000 The mind games are ridiculous. 232 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,000 She was faking it, that it's misinformation. 233 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000 There is almost no opportunity for justice. 234 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,000 If you can't see it, then you don't know that it needs to be fixed. 235 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,000 It was becoming pretty apparent that the hospital knew something was going on. 236 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,000 The virus stops with every vaccinated person. 237 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,000 In other words, you become a dead end to the virus. 238 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick. 239 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,000 I never knew that was going to be the last time I talked to my son. 240 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,000 They know at a very intimate level what's going on with this. 241 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,000 They know all of it. 242 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,000 And yet, nobody's coming to the rescue of truth. 243 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:29,000 Hello everyone and welcome back to Fallout here on Epoch TV with Dr. Robert Malone and myself, Janja Kellek, Senior Editor with Epoch Times. 244 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:40,000 So we were just starting to talk about something fascinating, which is actually a new technology in the mRNA, a new variant of the mRNA technology, which is self-replicating mRNA. 245 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,000 And it sounds very scary perhaps is the word that I'd like to use. 246 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,000 So tell me about that. 247 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,000 So it's not actually new. 248 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:55,000 This is a technology platform that's been developed since the very earliest days. 249 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:10,000 I first visited Dr. Peter Lilliestrom at the Karolinski Institute and talked about his work with self-amplifying or self-replicating mRNA back in 1993, I think it was. 250 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:21,000 And one of his senior graduate students, Peter Bergland, was actually my first postdoc and brought the tech into my laboratory at UC Davis. 251 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:27,000 Peter is now independently working at one of these seven largest mRNA companies developing this. 252 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,000 So what is it? 253 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:40,000 There are various single-stranded RNA viruses that infect animals and in particular infect humans. 254 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Of those, one particular category, alpha viruses, that by the way have a tendency to infect the brain and cause encephalitis, can be modified. 255 00:23:52,000 --> 00:24:12,000 You can genetically use scissors, reverse genetics, you know, metaphoric enzyme scissors, to modify the structure of these self-replicating RNA viruses, single-stranded RNA viruses, that do their whole business in the cytoplasm. 256 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:19,000 If you think about the fried egg, that's the white part of the fried egg as a metaphor for a cell, whereas the yellow part is the nucleus where the DNA is. 257 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:26,000 So all they have to do is get into the white part and then they can replicate this type of virus. 258 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:34,000 You can just put viral RNA straight into that white part of the egg and it will replicate in the cytoplasm of the cell. 259 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,000 There are many of these infectious RNAs. 260 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000 Polio is actually an infectious RNA. 261 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:46,000 You can manufacture or purify polio RNA, put it on cells and get polio virus back out. 262 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,000 So alpha viruses turn out to be really small, readily manipulated in this way. 263 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:58,000 And there's a lot of excitement about the use of this self-amplifying or self-replicating RNA technology, 264 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,000 because you can start off with a really low dose. 265 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:13,000 So you can avoid many of these dose-dependent toxicities that have been plaguing the coronavirus vaccine by using a much smaller dose of RNA. 266 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,000 But then once it gets into your cells, it makes lots of copies of itself. 267 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:30,000 So you'll recall that with the coronavirus pseudouridine modified mRNAs, your cells become a manufacturing facility for the protein spike in the case of these vaccines. 268 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:39,000 But with self-replicating RNA, your cells become a manufacturing facility for the RNA itself, which then makes the protein. 269 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:57,000 So that's the big difference, a lot less dose, potentially less initial toxicity, but a risk associated with the other virus proteins that are necessary to make these RNAs replicate. 270 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:08,000 And then there's the problem of what happens if you get infected by the parent virus or something related that can take those RNAs that have been engineered, 271 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:24,000 package them and put them out as basically defective viruses that can infect other cells or could be shed and could infect other people just the same as the virus itself normally spreads. 272 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:35,000 So that's what's happening here is basically the creation of something like a defective virus as another gene therapy strategy. 273 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:42,000 So here's a question from Love Rubies. 274 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,000 So she asks, this is, what about blood transfusions if needed? 275 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:55,000 And I'm guessing what she's trying to get at here is, you know, what if there's, you know, blood that's basically contaminated by some of these products, 276 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,000 either mRNA or proteins made through mRNA and so forth? 277 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:07,000 So you'll recall that this was a really hot topic early on in the COVID crisis and the vaccine rollout, in particular in New Zealand. 278 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:19,000 There was a case of a family who absolutely did not want their newborn child to receive a blood transfusion, which was necessary to save the child's life, 279 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:26,000 that was contaminated by the mRNA that had been injected into a blood donor. 280 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:37,000 And at the time, the New Zealand government felt that that was so unlikely that they took the child away from the parents and then administered the blood, 281 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:43,000 whereas the parents had made arrangements that they could get blood from donors that had never received the jab. 282 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,000 But the New Zealand government insisted that that baby shall take that RNA. 283 00:27:49,000 --> 00:28:06,000 So there are documented cases suggesting that individuals have had some adverse reaction after receiving a transfusion from a donor that had recently received an mRNA product. 284 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:16,000 And there is guidance in the transfusion community that you should not donate blood for a certain period of time after you received these vaccines. 285 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:24,000 And there also is, and this generated some excitement and kind of mischaracterization. 286 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:34,000 There is a statement that if you are sick in some way after having received an RNA vaccine, you shouldn't donate, you shouldn't be a blood donor. 287 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,000 So that's kind of the facts as they exist right now. 288 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:53,000 And it's certainly a reasonable consideration that the blood supply, that those that have not received these vaccines or haven't been infected, 289 00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:06,000 that's a tiny little population now, might not want to receive a blood transfusion that had the potential to have some of this material in it. 290 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,000 Is that a real concern? 291 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000 Is that just theoretical paranoia? 292 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,000 As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. 293 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,000 It's up to the patient. 294 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:28,000 If the patient, with informed consent, still believes that there's enough risk, they should have the right to receive a product that is free of this material. 295 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,000 I think that's a fundamental human right to choose what goes into your body. 296 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,000 And that has been denied. 297 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,000 And all of this comes in the context of an awareness by the transfusion community, 298 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,000 that blood transfusion was a major source of transmission of HIV early on, 299 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:50,000 because there was denialism about the risk of HIV transmission. 300 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,000 So that kind of colors this whole topic. 301 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,000 And I think that this is something, there are blood banks that have been established, 302 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,000 I think one in Switzerland in particular, that are free of vaccine material. 303 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,000 And this is absolutely a hot controversial topic right now. 304 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,000 All right, let's jump to Daniel LaRusso. 305 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,000 So I want to touch on this. 306 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,000 This isn't a question focused on MRNA, but it's a topic that we're very interested in. 307 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,000 So maybe we'll handle it after. 308 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,000 I just want to keep it in mind. 309 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:27,000 Do you think, Daniel LaRusso, do you think the administration will be successful in handing the authority to manage a health crisis to the WHO, 310 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,000 such as mandates, lockdowns, and response? 311 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,000 So, you know, we actually have had, for those of you that haven't watched, 312 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,000 we do have a follow-up episode on this topic in general. 313 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,000 I recommend watching that, checking it out. 314 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,000 But we actually would like to answer this. 315 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,000 But let's save that for the end of our discussion. 316 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,000 I'll cover a few more things here. 317 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,000 WHO. 318 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,000 WHO. 319 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:58,000 Carleen Henderson, what can we do, what can we take to undo the MRNA and particles' effects? 320 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,000 So, Darlene, that has to do with a couple of different questions that are embedded into that. 321 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,000 Which effects are you talking about and what is it that's causing it? 322 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,000 So there's the effects of the payload. 323 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,000 This is the jargon that one uses in this field. 324 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:18,000 The coding sequence of the RNA and the protein that it produces. 325 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,000 So that's the effects of spike. 326 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,000 And are there things that you can do to counteract the effects of spike? 327 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,000 And that science is evolving right now. 328 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,000 It hasn't been rigorously studied. 329 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,000 But there are a number of protocols that seem to provide people with relief. 330 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:43,000 And there's some evidence of reduction in levels of spike protein with some of these protocols. 331 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:49,000 And right now over YouTube or over Epic TV, I really don't want to get into making suggestions 332 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,000 about this drug or that drug. 333 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:56,000 But there are some agents and protocols that look like they might be effective. 334 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:03,000 In terms of can you get rid of the MRNA or the lipid nanoparticle product itself? 335 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:11,000 It turns out that this modification of the pseudouridine incorporation makes these things last a really long time. 336 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:18,000 Brett Weinstein once used the metaphor that this is like creating plastic logs and expressing them, 337 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,000 creating plastic logs, putting them in the forest, and expecting fungus to break them down. 338 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,000 It just doesn't happen. 339 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:33,000 That's kind of an extreme metaphor, but these products with this modification aren't normal RNA, 340 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:39,000 and they don't behave like normal RNA, and we don't really understand their degradation pathway. 341 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,000 Therefore, we don't really know how to get rid of them. 342 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:47,000 So that's the unfortunate truth as far as I'm concerned. 343 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:53,000 There may be some half-life where they get out of the system, but at this point we just don't know. 344 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,000 And here's the problem with that. 345 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,000 So I agree with you, Jan. 346 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Technically, we have experiments published in peer-reviewed literature that draw blood, for instance, 347 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:10,000 or do lymph node biopsies that show that this RNA disappears within those compartments, blood 348 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000 or draining lymph node, over weeks to months. 349 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:23,000 What we don't know is have they disappeared because they've been degraded, or have they disappeared because they've just redistributed to other places? 350 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,000 We don't know. 351 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,000 Maybe it's all getting taken up in the spleen and liver. 352 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:38,000 So as just one example, where the failure to perform the necessary non-clinical studies, typically in animals, 353 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:45,000 has led us to a situation in which I, and I don't think anybody, can give you a straight answer about your question. 354 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,000 And it's like we're still kind of in the midst of a big experiment, in a way, without the controls. 355 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,000 But it's now assumed that that experiment has been successful. 356 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,000 Billions of doses have been administered. 357 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,000 And so we can go on with all these other applications. 358 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,000 You know, there's this lovely list here from UPenn. 359 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:10,000 Quote, we're working on every imaginable infectious disease with mRNA tech, as well as classic gene therapy targets. 360 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:16,000 Heart attack and stroke, heart failure, neurodevelopmental disorders, food and environmental allergens, 361 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,000 RNA vaccines for cancer, et cetera, et cetera. 362 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,000 Just goes on and on with all the classic gene therapy applications. 363 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,000 And it's all assumed that the tech is safe and effective and we don't need to go back and ask these basic questions. 364 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:36,000 And of course, it's UPenn that has the patent on that pseudouridine modification to create the plastic log, so to speak. 365 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,000 Yeah. And just to put a cap on it, here we've got a statistic. 366 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:49,000 The global mRNA therapeutics, that's not vaccines, market size was valued at U.S. 39.9 billion in 2021 367 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:54,000 and is expected to grow at a 1.7% annual compound growth rate. 368 00:34:54,000 --> 00:35:02,000 So if you are a venture capitalist or BlackRock, this looks like something you want to have a piece of. 369 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:10,000 You want to get involved in this because, or you're a new biotech startup. 370 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,000 What's not to like? Those are great numbers. 371 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,000 All right. Let's jump to something a little different here. 372 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,000 Veronica Worthy, can COVID cause tinnitus if I didn't get the shot? 373 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,000 Can COVID cause tinnitus or tinnitus? The answer is yes. 374 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:40,000 So it seems that tinnitus or tinnitus is a more common side effect associated with the mRNA-based products. 375 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:48,000 But absolutely, it can occur consequent to primary infection with SARS-CoV-2. 376 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,000 So here's Chicken Farmer 001. 377 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:58,000 And this is great because I actually specifically wanted to talk about the use of mRNA technology in livestock. 378 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,000 So the question is, is the safety, oh, where did it go? 379 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,000 What is the safety of mRNA vaccines given to our food supply? 380 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000 For example, pork, and of course, we've been talking about cattle in the past as well. 381 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:20,000 So I've consulted and spoken about this a fair amount with various legislators, etc. 382 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:30,000 And the safety question is complicated because there's the safety to the livestock themselves, the animals. 383 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:36,000 And then there's the safety to the consumer if we're talking about livestock for human consumption. 384 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:46,000 What has been asserted is that this material all degrades by the time it's been processed for meat. 385 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,000 The carcass has been processed and cooked. 386 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,000 So this is akin to saying, can you get trichinosis from pork? 387 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,000 Well, yes, if you don't cook it. 388 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:08,000 So that's one domain is, are you safe in the case of this material having been administered to, say, pigs? 389 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,000 Because that is absolutely a marketed product for Merck. 390 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:22,000 They are making custom vaccines for pigs based on whatever the flora is, the bacteria and viruses that are circulating on your pig farm, on your swine farm. 391 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:29,000 Is it safe for the animal? 392 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:38,000 If we accept that these products are not fully safe in humans, then it's reasonable to assume that they're not fully safe in animals. 393 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:52,000 And we know that in humans we do have some incidents of these disabling neurologic disorders, myocarditis, stroke, blood clotting problems, et cetera, associated with them. 394 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,000 So it's reasonable to infer that that may happen with livestock. 395 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,000 And there's a special case in dairy farms in particular. 396 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:13,000 And I've counseled, for instance, to some legislators in Wisconsin, where dairy farming is a big issue, that this, I believe, must be resisted. 397 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:21,000 The deployment of this technology in particular in dairy cattle, because we know it is shed in milk. 398 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:34,000 And whether or not that represents a true human risk, if you're a dairy farmer or you're representing the dairy industry, think about the blowback, the potential fallout. 399 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:52,000 If you now have to admit to your customers that your cows are receiving this material that can be shed in the milk, and they might receive that material indirectly in that milk product, people aren't going to want to buy that milk. 400 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,000 Just like they don't want to buy the hormone-manipulated cows. 401 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,000 So that's how I see it. 402 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:14,000 And since it's a chicken farmer, as he knows he or she, as a chicken farmer, the margin on poultry vaccines is extremely tight. 403 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:22,000 So there would have to be some way to deploy this tech in poultry that would only cost pennies a dose. 404 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,000 The only way I can imagine that is aerosolized. 405 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:37,000 And if you're aerosolizing in major chicken barns, then you're putting anybody that's downstream, including your technical help, at risk for indirect exposure to the material. 406 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:47,000 A lot of complications around using this technology widely in livestock. 407 00:39:47,000 --> 00:40:01,000 Has Dr. Malone seen the new so-called CDC study supposedly saying that the vaccine has no adverse effects on younger adults? 408 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,000 I'm assuming this is the myocarditis study they're talking about. 409 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,000 Yeah. 410 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000 And if so, what are his thoughts on the study and so-called conclusion? 411 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,000 Yeah, this person's highly skeptical, we can see. 412 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,000 So that's a fascinating study. 413 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:23,000 It basically, fascinating, I'm being a little bit sardonic, it is basically a survey of records from the state of Oregon. 414 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:41,000 And in those records, those health records post-vaccination, they have a very small number of deaths that are temporally associated with the vaccine in the reported information. 415 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,000 Now this is based on surveillance. 416 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,000 It isn't reporting, so it's not VAERS. 417 00:40:46,000 --> 00:41:00,000 They're actually looking at codes in the state of Oregon of death events that have occurred with some sort of a temporal linkage to when the vaccine was administered relatively short term. 418 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:09,000 So what they're talking about is sudden deaths, a term that's used widely in the resistance community. 419 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:16,000 And they have a very small number of those sudden deaths that they've identified. 420 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:22,000 And based on that very small number, they have made a conclusion that there's no association. 421 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:33,000 What I see is a very limited study, very small scale study, with overly broad conclusions that is then being amplified in corporate media. 422 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:41,000 I don't see this as anything much more than almost anecdotal case reports. 423 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:53,000 So I don't place a whole lot of merit in that particular small surveillance study. 424 00:41:53,000 --> 00:42:06,000 And I think that the fact that it's drawn this conclusion based on these small number of cases makes it almost more propaganda-like than a serious analysis of the problem. 425 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:15,000 All right, Richard Hawkins, are mRNA vaccines for livestock just replacing existing STD vaccines? 426 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,000 If so, what is the supposed advantage? 427 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,000 That's interesting. 428 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:30,000 So he's talking about vaccines for sexually transmitted diseases. 429 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,000 That's the acronym that he's using. 430 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:46,000 And would mRNA vaccines be potentially replacing HIV or for other sexually transmitted diseases like shingles, for example? 431 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:53,000 Many of those STDs have turned out to be really difficult to get an effective vaccine for. 432 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:59,000 You know, we're still arguing how effective the human papillomavirus vaccine is. 433 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,000 And that's a more traditional product. 434 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,000 So are these just going to replace? 435 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,000 Let's broaden the question a little bit. 436 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:14,000 I think he may have been asking about livestock, but I guess it's just as relevant. 437 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:32,000 So for sure the tech creates an opportunity for a large pharma or a small startup or innovator to come up with a product that would displace or replace an existing vaccine. 438 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,000 What would be necessary in order to do that? 439 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:44,000 You would have to show that there was some significant advantage to an mRNA based product compared to the existing product. 440 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,000 What that means is it has to either work better or be safer. 441 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,000 And you're going to have to come up with the data. 442 00:43:52,000 --> 00:44:03,000 This is why once you get a vaccine into the children's vaccine schedule, for instance, you basically acquire a monopoly, a virtual monopoly in perpetuity. 443 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:12,000 Because any new product has to undergo a particular structure of clinical trial called a non-inferiority trial. 444 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:19,000 It turns out to be very large and very expensive because you already have a product that's partially effective. 445 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:24,000 And you want to say that your product is a little bit more effective, a little bit more safe. 446 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:33,000 Then you have to do a very large trial to power it so that you can demonstrate statistically that you meet that criteria. 447 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:42,000 And functionally what this means is that once you have a product in the marketplace accepted for a given indication, 448 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:49,000 it becomes extremely difficult and expensive for your competitor to enter that market space. 449 00:44:49,000 --> 00:45:01,000 So it may be that there are investors that think that this gold rush is a great opportunity to create new products to displace all the existing ones. 450 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:06,000 Those would probably be naive investors, I think. 451 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:14,000 Well, except that if I can jump in, you mentioned that if you're using the technology that's already been used, 452 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:21,000 sort of pseudo-uridine plus lipid nanoparticle plus hopefully they're cleaning out the DNA contamination and all that. 453 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,000 That's another question, but do they have to? 454 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,000 I don't know. 455 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,000 This is still troubling me, Robert, greatly. 456 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,000 Maybe they don't need to look at the safety. 457 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,000 Except for, don't they need to look? 458 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,000 If they're going to assert that the new product is superior than the existing product, 459 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:45,000 which is what's going to be necessary to enter the marketplace and gain acceptance as the standard of care. 460 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,000 It has to have some advantage to say, 461 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:55,000 I'm going to advise Mrs. Smith that little Johnny should take this vaccine and not the old vaccine. 462 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,000 It has to have some superior characteristic. 463 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:07,000 And so, in order to demonstrate that superiority, you have to do very, very large scale clinical trials. 464 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,000 And that's the thing with this whole vaccine business that gets overlooked again and again, 465 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:17,000 is most of the time and the cost is actually not up front. 466 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,000 It's in the late phase clinical trials. 467 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:26,000 These massive, that's why you end up with a billion dollars up to $10 billion to get to licensure, 468 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:32,000 is because the cost of the clinical trial, which varies from, you know, at the lowest, 469 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,000 $5,000 per subject and can easily be $20,000 or more per subject. 470 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:43,000 And if you have to have a trial that enrolls 10,000 subjects in order to show that your product is superior to the other one, 471 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,000 you can figure out that you quickly end up with big money. 472 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,000 And then suddenly you turn to your board of directors and your investors and say, 473 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,000 hey, we want to go develop this new product because we think it's really cool. 474 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,000 And they go, yeah, let's run the numbers. 475 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,000 And then they look at it and they say, nope, we're not going there. 476 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:05,000 So that's, that's what these, you know, what, what you're encountering is, 477 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:13,000 we can call it irrational enthusiasm, that, or we call it hype. 478 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,000 You know, a lot of, a lot of forward looking statements. 479 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,000 I've used that phrase before. 480 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:25,000 That's an approved phrase in, in a wall street in the biotech industry, 481 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,000 a lot of forward looking statements about where this is going. 482 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:34,000 But as a, as a over 30 year veteran of having seen these things come and go, 483 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:41,000 I'm pretty wary about the probability that this actually, these things make it to market 484 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,000 in the way that a lot of people are, are hyping, including in the press. 485 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,000 But as you said earlier, you know, for those that haven't watched, uh, from the beginning, 486 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,000 you know, this, it could be part of this kind of pump and dump. 487 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,000 Yeah. 488 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,000 Absolutely. 489 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:55,000 Absolutely. 490 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,000 It works. 491 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:02,000 Uh, if you're, if you're the small to mid-sized company with a, you know, 20 to 150 million 492 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,000 dollar market cap, and you can announce that you're going to develop some new product. 493 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:13,000 Now that's the big difference, is if it's a new product, for a new infectious disease, 494 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:18,000 that let's say, has just been discovered by the Wuhan Institute of Virology, 495 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:23,000 or by EcoHealth Alliance, because they've been traveling the rainforests of Peru, 496 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,000 or whatever the thing is, and they come out and they say, 497 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,000 holy moly, we found this new virus and it looks like it could really be lethal. 498 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,000 And we need to have a vaccine for this pronto. 499 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,000 Okay. 500 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,000 Then it's a gold rush because there isn't an existing product in that niche. 501 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,000 Okay. 502 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:45,000 And so that's why in, in this space, you really want to find the new threat agent, 503 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:50,000 which drives a lot of this fear and excitement and hype that we're all encountering. 504 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:57,000 We're, we're, we're constantly being confronted by, oh my God, there's this new thing. 505 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,000 And, uh, we should be very afraid of this new thing. 506 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:05,000 Uh, and we absolutely have to get a vaccine for this new thing. 507 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:12,000 There's, it's, it's a fascinating exercise to go back in C-SPAN and look at Tony Fauci testify 508 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:19,000 to Congress as he's seeking billions of dollars again and again and again for new outbreaks. 509 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,000 He did it with, uh, um, Ebola. 510 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,000 He did it with Zika. 511 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,000 Uh, he did it with West Nile virus. 512 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:33,000 Um, again and again and again, you see Tony Fauci coming before Congress saying, 513 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:39,000 I guarantee we can make a vaccine in two to three years if you only give me $10 billion. 514 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:44,000 And they give him $10 billion almost to the T again and again and again. 515 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,000 And he goes off and he spends the $10 billion. 516 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,000 It goes out into all these congressional districts. 517 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,000 And invariably nothing happens. 518 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:57,000 The only vaccine that's come out of the vaccine research center that's worth a 10 years damn. 519 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,000 And we can argue about that is the one that is licensed to Moderna for COVID. 520 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:03,000 Okay. 521 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,000 All the other ones have failed, but it doesn't matter because he gets the cash out of Congress 522 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:13,000 each time by speaking about the fear and the threat of this thing to the American public. 523 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,000 And of course that gets amplified in the press. 524 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:20,000 And then there becomes all this pressure that Congress has to do something. 525 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,000 It's a perfect storm. 526 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:26,000 It works perfectly for, uh, Tony Fauci to raise money for NIAID. 527 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,000 And it works perfectly on the other side in Wall Street. 528 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,000 You can play the same game. 529 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,000 Well, I mean, but except that, as you know, we've discussed again and again, 530 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,000 you know, in your opinion, these are not successful products. 531 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:44,000 And many, many other, you know, doctors that have been on American thought leaders and so forth. 532 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:50,000 But from a, from a strictly financial standpoint, they have been enormously successful. 533 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,000 I see. 534 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:57,000 So if you're an investor, this, this game works well, unless the slang is, 535 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:02,000 unless you end up being the bag holder or another phrase is you catch the falling knife. 536 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:07,000 What you want to be is on the side of the curve where all this equity is building up 537 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,000 and all the excitement and hype is, is coming out. 538 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,000 You don't want to be on the other side of the curve when people realize, 539 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,000 you know, like when's the last time you heard about Zeke? 540 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,000 Right. 541 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:23,000 Um, uh, if you're on the other side of that curve and suddenly people are saying, 542 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,000 Hey, this turns out to not have been such a big threat. 543 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,000 Um, then remember, remember just recently, 544 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,000 how much excitement there was about the leprosy outbreak in Florida. 545 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:39,000 That leprosy outbreak, which by the way, leprosy is readily treated with antibiotics. 546 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,000 Okay. 547 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,000 Um, and in Brazil, they treat it with thalidomide, just good to know. 548 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:48,000 Uh, so probably you don't want to get treated for leprosy in Brazil if you're pregnant, 549 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:59,000 but, uh, um, seven cases, eight cases in a state that has a significant immigrant population coming from the Amazon where leprosy is endemic. 550 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,000 But still we had all this press hype. 551 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,000 We absolutely have to have something. 552 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:09,000 And I'm sure if somebody had launched a leprosy vaccine program at that moment in time, 553 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,000 they would have been able to capture 50 or a hundred million dollars in, 554 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,000 in investment capital off of Wall Street by floating a stock offering. 555 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,000 It's the way this ecosystem works. 556 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:20,000 Oh, my gosh. 557 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,000 Makes me feel a little ill, frankly. 558 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:31,000 Um, well, actually this, this is a good question and also makes me feel a little, um, we have, okay, let me see. 559 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:39,000 JT wid 75 twidwell, any ideas on the future of prions or prion based diseases? 560 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:48,000 So, prions is complicated and, and, uh, really goes beyond my core competence. 561 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,000 I haven't studied prion based diseases. 562 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:57,000 Uh, these neurofibrillary tangles in the brain, which is basically what we're talking about, 563 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:09,000 um, can be triggered by certain proteins and they can also be triggered by central nervous system inflammation. 564 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:18,000 And so things that cause the inflammatory cells, you can think of them akin to the nerve system cells, 565 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,000 I'm sorry, the immune system cells of the brain. 566 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:27,000 Uh, so neuroglia, um, uh, astrocytes, some of these cell types. 567 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:36,000 Um, if they're triggered to respond as if they have a threat signal, inflammatory signal, 568 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:42,000 they can release, uh, signaling molecules, proteins, proteases, et cetera, 569 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:52,000 that cause the development of these tangled webs of proteins that we call neurofibrillary tangles. 570 00:53:52,000 --> 00:54:01,000 And, uh, so they can apparently be caused by, uh, some proteins that can be eaten, 571 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,000 that presumably trigger this cascade of response. 572 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:11,000 Uh, they can be triggered by things that cross the blood-brain barrier 573 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,000 and cause inflammation. 574 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,000 And that is a hot topic in the case of SARS-CoV-2. 575 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,000 That appears to be happening. 576 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:25,000 And there are those like the Luc Montagnier, Nobel laureate, 577 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:34,000 now deceased, unfortunately, that strongly believe that the, uh, lipid nanoparticle mRNA products 578 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,000 can trigger this process also. 579 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:43,000 Um, so prions, prion diseases, neurofibrillary tangles, and of course underlying all of that, 580 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,000 what we're talking about is Alzheimer's-like disease, 581 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:53,000 uh, is, is a complex evolving landscape and seems to be multifactorial. 582 00:54:53,000 --> 00:55:03,000 Uh, and, uh, it does seem to be that at a very rare event rate, there is some association 583 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:09,000 with these lipid nanoparticles and that type of disease process. 584 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:17,000 So I think we're kind of, we're getting close to the end of our live stream here. 585 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,000 Um, I'm gonna ask one more question. 586 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,000 Um, is there, um... 587 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,000 This is from Liz, uh, Erickson. 588 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,000 That's right. 589 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:31,000 Is there an effort to make sure products are clearly labeled if they include mRNA? 590 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:36,000 Will we be warned before those products are administered? 591 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,000 Hmm. 592 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,000 Oh. 593 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:44,000 So, in, let me, Liz, let me unpack that a little bit more. 594 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:53,000 Are the components of these products going to be disclosed in the package labeling? 595 00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:01,000 Normally, uh, when you get the box in which the drug or the vaccine syringe or the vial 596 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:07,000 comes, there's a little product sheet in there that's inserted in with very, very small type 597 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:11,000 that is a key component of the product itself. 598 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,000 It's the product label. 599 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:20,000 It's the labeling that discloses what's in the mixture, what the formulation consists 600 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:26,000 of, what the chemicals are that are there, what the studies are that verify that it's 601 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,000 safe and effective, the nature of those studies. 602 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,000 All kinds of details about the product normally would be included. 603 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:38,000 And I recall, if I might jump in, that I, uh, Bobby Kennedy Jr. says that's the one place 604 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,000 where the companies tell the truth. 605 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,000 That's just jumping to my mind. 606 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,000 They, they are supposed to tell the truth because they can be held liable. 607 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:51,000 Now, early on in, through much of the pandemic, as the MRNA products were deployed, those product 608 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,000 information sheets were blank. 609 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:57,000 And they were printed with a statement, this is left intentionally blank. 610 00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,000 Then they started providing some of that information. 611 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:07,000 But Liz is asking, is there going to be disclosure about the contents of any products that would 612 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,000 be administered to you that you could accept? 613 00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:18,000 And, uh, normally I would say, of course, there's going to be full disclosure because those are the rules. 614 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:27,000 But we seem to be in kind of a post-rule environment where a lot of things that normally I would expect would 615 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:32,000 be required are, um, not being required. 616 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,000 So, are we going to have full disclosure? 617 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:42,000 For instance, if you eat pork, whether or not that pork had received these products? 618 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:46,000 Um, the Merck vaccine, custom vaccine, for instance. 619 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,000 I think probably not at this point. 620 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:57,000 I think probably there's not going to be a requirement that they disclose vaccines, because it has never been the 621 00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:04,000 thing in the past, that when you buy your pork chop, there's a label on the package that says this 622 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,000 comes from pigs that were fully vaccinated. 623 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:12,000 So, I think that she's getting to a key issue here. 624 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:23,000 There's the human-administered products, and there seems to have been a willingness to not fully disclose 625 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:28,000 things that previously would have always been disclosed. 626 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:37,000 And in terms of food animal products, there's never been a tradition of disclosing whether or not those 627 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,000 food animals were fully vaccinated. 628 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,000 So, I very much doubt that's going to start happening now. 629 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:49,000 Well, and there's also this kind of attitude of, you know, trust us, we know better. 630 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:53,000 Which has kind of been, you know, throughout the, accepting the noble lie. 631 00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:54,000 Yeah. 632 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,000 Let's jump to our last question. 633 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,000 So, this is going back to our topic of the WHO. 634 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:05,000 I want to remind everyone that we do have an episode, a couple episodes back, about the 635 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,000 WHO, International Health Regulations and the Pandemic Treaty. 636 00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:13,000 The question from Daniel LaRusso was, do you think the administration will be successful 637 00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:19,000 in handing the authority to manage a health crisis to the WHO, such as mandates, knock lockdowns 638 00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,000 and response? 639 00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:25,000 So, he's asking a crystal ball question of me. 640 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,000 He's asking me to speculate what's going to happen. 641 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,000 Because we have an upcoming vote. 642 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,000 There's, I think, over 160 countries that are going to vote on this. 643 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:38,000 It's like a month and a half from now, 45 days, something like that. 644 00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:44,000 Do I think that, and it absolutely has been advanced by the Biden administration, particularly 645 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,000 the international health regulations. 646 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:52,000 Do I think that they're going to succeed in jamming this through? 647 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:59,000 And, if you're going to force me to pick a side and make a prediction, my prediction would 648 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,000 be, it's highly probable that they will succeed. 649 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:10,000 The one thing that I've heard that makes me more optimistic that this isn't going to happen, 650 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,000 is the price tag associated. 651 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:19,000 And, what I'm hearing is a lot of the developed nations are balking at that price tag. 652 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:25,000 We don't, you know, they're already stressed in terms of their budget and throwing tens of 653 01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:30,000 billions of dollars more to World Health Organization right now is going to be a hard sell. 654 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,000 Particularly, say, in Europe as they're coming up with the European Parliament elections. 655 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:47,000 So, I'd say the jury's out, but if I had to, if I held a gun to my head, I'd say probably 656 01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,000 they're going to succeed in jamming this through. 657 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:53,000 Well, I think we're at the end of our episode. 658 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:57,000 I'm very keen to hear from all of you actually how this went. 659 01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,000 You know, we've got a ton of great questions. 660 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:04,000 Well, we're going to hopefully do this again, depending on your feedback. 661 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:10,000 We'd love to get your feedback on how this went, whether this is a format that you'd like us to use again. 662 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:15,000 And, yeah, so from Robert Malone and myself, we'll see you next week on Fallout.