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no matter how many times we see the footage it shocks us during the holocaust an estimated six

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million jews died under the regime of adolf hitler they died from starvation disease and gassing

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but there are some who say that these pictures are not real that much of what is known about the

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holocaust is fiction and not fact one person who questions the existence of the holocaust is mr mark

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weber mark is a holocaust revisionist he is the editor and spokesman for the institute for historical

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review and also joining us is mr david cole another revisionist he's a member of the committee for

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open debate on the holocaust david was recently under the attack or under attack by members of

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the jewish defense league while he was speaking on the subject because david is jewish thank you

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very much gentlemen for being here and we appreciate you coming we have all seen the specials the news

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clips the footage everyone around the world believes that the holocaust took place why do you think it

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didn't well montel it's very important to understand that no one says that those pictures are not real

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as you indicated at the beginning of the program the pictures are very real they're very horrible

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they're very tragic and we've all seen them we've all heard that six million jews died in the second

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world war during the holocaust but it's very important to understand what these pictures show and

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what they don't show the people these pictures were taken at the bells and bergen bells and concentration

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camp at the end of the war by the british when they liberated the camp the people shown these

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pictures and it's a very very terrible pictures nobody denies that nobody says it didn't happen

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nobody says it's not true these people were victims of starvation and disease they died in

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the last weeks of the war and they died in the last weeks of the war as in fact indirect victims of

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the war british uh uh doctors who were at the camp themselves at the time that the camp was liberated

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and many uh inmates who were at the camp uh there and elsewhere have also confirmed the conditions

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at bells and although certainly not a not a country club were relatively good until the final weeks

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and months of the war and that was because in the final weeks of the months of the war all of germany

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all of europe was in complete chaos all the railroads were in were ruined it was impossible to supply

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food it was impossible to supply water and particularly at bergen bellsen thousands and thousands and

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thousands of jews were evacuated from camps further to the east as the soviets were coming in and sent

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into this and other camps which were enormously overcrowded these people died in large numbers by

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disease and starvation but if the policy of the german government had been to exterminate these people

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they would not they would have long since been dead and these pictures would not have been taken

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in fact the german government policy during the war was a very grim one it was a very harsh one and so

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forth as i said again no one denies those pictures but those people were not victims of a program

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or a policy of extermination and that's what holocaust revisionists say well let's let's go back a

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little bit in history here so we can kind of bring everybody up to speak as i asked for a history lesson

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myself i've done some reading on world war ii and knew a few things but just 1933 was when hitler became

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the fuhrer 1933 was also when dachau opened 1938 hitler entered vienna making it part of the third reich 1939

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germany invades poland we go on in 1940 the nazis invade holland belgium france luxembourg 1941 they

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invade russia 1941 the first death camp was open in 1942 the final solution was discussed openly and that

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final solution was a solution that included the extermination of the jews is that not correct you

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raised a lot of very very good points there was we know from german documents we know from german

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officials during the war they did talk about something they called the final solution to the jewish

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question and the german documents to talk about this but in the thousands millions tons of german

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documents seized at the end of the war that deal with jewish policy there is not a single document

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not a single piece of paper which talks about or confirms or even discusses an extermination policy

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hitler also knew that if let's say he didn't win this war and someone ever found a document that stated

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that life would be real tough for him and everyone else we know we have german documents which show

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exactly what the policy was and uh these documents are in fact very very important the german what the

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german officials meant by the final solution policy was before 19 uh end of 1941 was a policy of forced um

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or or forced expulsion from europe by forced immigration if necessary and need be after 1941 into 1942

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this policy changed to one of force of deporting jews uprooting them and sending them to the east and

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that meant first to ghettos and camps in poland and then later throughout the war they were sent to

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the occupied soviet territories that's what the german officials during the war said and meant by

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this final solution of the jewish question now at nuremberg this of course this whole issue came up at

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nuremberg all of the german defendants at the big nuremberg trial 1945 1946 all said that they had no

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knowledge during the war of any extermination program if i had been a german wait if i had been a german

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guard at one of these camps of dachau hoswood and somebody said did you participate in the in the

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the murder of a million people i would have said no it was you homeboy did it that wasn't me and i would

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have said no i never saw this before i would have lied and said anything that i could have said to prove

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that i wasn't involved that that's a that's very reasonable but what these men had to say was also is

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also consistent from the from the documents that we have uh and what we know about and it's also

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consistent from everything we know about the policy uh uh from from many other sources all

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right well now david i mean i i would think that there are enough older jewish people in this country

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people who are survivors people whose families live through the holocaust who would right now uh

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be willing to do exactly what happened to you a couple weeks ago and that's attacked you because

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you are jewish and to step forward and say this would be like myself stepping forward and saying that

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the united states government never brought slaves to this country but now if you were to say that

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couldn't people then make a case to show that there was in fact slavery i am not trying to aggravate

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anyone anybody of course i know that i am gravely aggravating people to the point where they uh will

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actually physically come up and attack me but i think it raises uh many interesting issues specifically

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the role of truth in society what happens when you have eyewitnesses and yet you have other evidence

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physical evidence forensic evidence the evidence of documents and intercepted transmissions you make

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a point montel you make a grave assumption a leap of faith when you say well the reason we don't

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have these documents showing uh you know with where the germans discussed what they did is because hitler

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didn't want him around i guess had him burned or something because he knew that that would get him in

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trouble but that's making an assumption now other people might say we don't have the documents because

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there aren't any because they never existed well what about all the things that you hear about the gas

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chambers and all those things that the the mass graves graves with well now no one doubts no one

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doubts mass graves no one doubts that there were bodies in this camp and let me just for the record

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state i don't doubt that it was an incredibly horrible thing that happened to the jews of europe

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something that uh should not be thought of in any uh lighter sense specifically because we doubt

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there were gas chambers these people were taken out of their villages uh split up from their family

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and put into camps and made to work and forced labor and this is a horrible situation and people

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died from disease and starvation and just plain being worked to death it is not that we are trying

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to sugarcoat what happened but it's been many years after the fact and it's time that we brought the facts

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in uh in parallel to uh the actual uh history of what happened yes ma'am um the fact still remains yes that

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six million jews were killed and whether or not the documentation shows that it was the intent to

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completely get rid of jews it it doesn't matter whether or not the intent was there because it

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happened six million jews were murdered now if i could just address that for both david and mark

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that's a very important issue because both of you dispute the fact that six million jews died if i

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could make a point now she said the fact that six million jews died however in 1988 the uh out

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should be cited auschwitz where people can go and tour the gas chambers uh they lowered their figure

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from four million dead to one million dead so that was three million taken out of the equation overnight

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where did these three million go were they never there in the first place were they in the camps and

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did they survive and if you can lose three million people overnight who's to say that one

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million remaining figure is not also wrong and let me ask you this question weren't weren't some of

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weren't some of these figures ascertained after the fact because they went back and did censuses

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after the source of the famous six million figure is an affidavit by one of the uh by somebody who

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was brought in at the nuremberg trial in 1945-46 even roald hillburg who's considered one of the major

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uh figures in the holocaust uh holocaust historians professor university of vermont he concedes

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himself that the six million figure is is based upon crude calculations it is only highly dubious

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and he says we must re-examine this whole question of the six million look it's very interesting montel

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people have heard over and over about six million jews dying in europe during the second world war

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how many people in this audience know how many germans died during the second world war how many americans

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died during the second world war how many chinese died during the second world war in america as time

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goes by the more time passes the more there's emphasis on the fate of one particular people

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during the second world war almost to the exclusion of everyone else how many

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another point i mean right now in washington dc a federal government agency a taxpayer

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funded agency of the federal government the united states holocaust memorial council

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is organizing and building an enormous museum in washington dc there's no comparable museum in

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washington dc to the victims of slavery there's no comparable museum in washington dc to the fate of

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the indians or any other people but there is enormous being museum being built under federal

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government auspices the fate of only one particular people in one other place how many chinese died

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during the second world war according to the encyclopedia britannica the number of civilian chinese

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civilians alone who died during the second world war is more than 20 million more than 20 million who

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knows it who even cares but are we saying that therefore we should not believe what happened to the jewish

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people because these other things are admitted or should we should we stop and say that we believe

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what happened montel it's right and proper to memorialize the dead the dead of all wars and the

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dead of all uh genocide or all mistreatment whatever it happens to be but what is not right is to take the

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fate of one particular people and in effect make a kind of political football out of it i i would

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like to also interject speaking as a jew the holocaust is an extremely important thing to especially

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american and israeli jews because most american jews tend to be secularized and the holocaust and the

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shared history of persecution has tended to take the place of the religion of jews now i'm jewish i'm

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also an also an atheist i don't buy many things i don't buy concepts of mysticism spirituality and especially

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myth and i have read both sides of the issue extensively and i'm not looking to hurt anybody but i do

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i have to say from my own point of view that the evidence saying that there were no gas chambers is

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a lot stronger than any of the evidence that can be presented saying there were all right let's stop

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there and take a break and when we come back we'll find out like david said is it myth or is it truth we'll

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find out when we come back we're talking about the holocaust and whether or not it happened or it

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didn't happen and you had a question sir yeah this was remarked to dave's earlier statements you said

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that they weren't really being peace uh prosecuted um persecuted there we go uh my point is they were

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the jews were selected uh specifically to be annihilated i think that's more important and the fact

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that they were selectively chosen out of various groups to be annihilated uh and secondly i i do have

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to agree with you to a degree that that what happened in cambodia with kama rouge wasn't played up as much as

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the the issue with the jews but that still doesn't lessen the fact that the holocaust occurred

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and you both say that it didn't occur no we don't we don't say the holocaust didn't occur that's really

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too simplistic you know the hall what is a revisionist then okay then make it simple

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enough wait a second before you go because you're talking a little heady i want you to make sure

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everybody can understand what it is you're talking about what is it that a revisionist wants there to

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be shown in history revisionists say three essential things we say first and foremost there was no policy

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or program to exterminate the jews of europe during the second world war okay so now stop right there

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for a second don't go too quick which refutes exactly what the gentleman just asked you because

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he said that the policy was they were picked out and isolated to be annihilated that's certainly true

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so you're saying that's not true no no they were they were they were they were selectively persecuted

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they were picked out they were put in ghettos they were put in camps they were a victim group but

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there was not a policy or program to exterminate them wait a minute wait i want you you're getting

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me run real quick and i want to slow you down so we can get every point out of what you're saying

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so they were selected individually as a group to be put into ghettos and to be starved to death

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what was the key whether or not it was a gas chamber or not they were starved to no no no no

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montel look i mean during the second world war as you well knows everyone in california i think

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knows uh the west coast japanese were also selected they were rounded up they were put into camp

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sure well yes europe was not europe during the second world war was not the united states during the

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second world war there was a lot of food uh in the united states there were essentially peacetime

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conditions war didn't come here certainly the japanese were not treated anywhere near as bad

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as the jews but the point is simply that they were selectively persecuted and that's true that was

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certainly true with the jews and i just want to also pipe in and say that i'd like to call you on what

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you said so what if there were no gas chambers if they were starved to death hey if you if if we even

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make that much of a point we've refuted a lot of what is in the history books that say there are gas

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chambers now if all of a sudden the story is going to change and that the genocide was through

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starving them to death well that makes a great big difference because then all that you've read in

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your history has been wrong we're we're not prepared to deviate at all from the facts that are presented

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to us and if the facts were ever to show that they were starved to death we would reflect that okay now

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the second point you said there are three points that was the first point right second the second

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point montel is that we dispute uh the claims made over and over about gas chambers and gassings that's the

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weapon of extermination supposedly it's very important to realize in this context that the holocaust story or the

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gassing story has changed dramatically over the over the years at the big nuremberg trial of 1945-46 it

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was claimed that people were gassed at dachau at buchenwald and at various camps in germany proper

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as well right after the war it was claimed not that people were gassed at auschwitz but that they were

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electrocuted to death and then later we found out that all the gas chambers were in poland give me

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the third point the point is that the evidence for supposedly gassings in some camps has just been

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done away with it's a maybe okay the third point is we say that no no nothing like six million jews in europe

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died during the second world war and it's very important in this regard also to realize that

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every jew every jewish person who in the second world war who died of whatever cause is considered

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quote a victim of the holocaust that is jews who died even in allied bombing attacks jews who died

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for whatever reason they're considered victims of the holocaust so you're saying all six million is a

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compilation figure of every jewish person who died during the war look even a number of prominent

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holocaust historians have conceded the six million figure is essentially symbolic in nature it's

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repeated over and over and it's not necessary all all sorts of other things can change and the six

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million figure will stay the same okay yes ma'am well i have two things to say first of all a death is

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a death these people have died i don't understand why you want to read what do you have to gain by

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questioning the facts and history what is it what's your purpose in all of this is what let me ask this

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question is is knowing the truth about what happened in your past important to to you well to me death

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is death they have all died they've it was hurtful to many people why is it we have to question whether

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somebody set forth to gas chamber people or whatever what do you have to gain see that is a philosophically

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based question not a factual question question we know that there were camps we had for the japanese

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what if somebody came along and said we then cut up the japanese and fed them to crocodiles it is

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important for us to know what did happen and didn't happen and if you're not interested in

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truth and history fine to some of us who are interested in what really happened in the use

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of truth the governmental use of truth how truth can be changed how truth can be altered that does

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matter a death is a death of course but if we say the german people set up gas chambers you ought to be

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willing to prove it and ready to prove but now wait before you even jump in mark david but isn't it very

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important also to know that if if the plan was if the plan was to annihilate a race of people if that was the

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plan genocide for a race of people does it then matter if there were gas chambers or if it was

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starvation this lady's making a very interesting point the point is death is death and they set out

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to kill people maybe it's a fine line i'm not arguing with you that maybe it's a fine line but then why

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do we get all the flack when we then try to deny that there were gas chambers based on the facts

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available if it is such a fine line if it just don't matter at all then we ought to be able to say

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well here's some evidence showing that there are no gas chambers and everybody say well fine but it was

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death and we'd say sure it was death all the same and also the same thing about the idea of there

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being a final solution show us the evidence that there was the idea of a genocide of all the jews and

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if you show it to us uh and if it passes at least my own personal uh skepticism uh when looking at

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things then i will be the first person to say i'm dave the dunce just uh kick me out of the studio but i want

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to see the evidence first yes sir two questions make it one because i gotta switch i gotta go to

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break okay uh how many uh jews did the germans have their hands on during the war that they could

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have exterminated theoretically that's a very good question uh you know uh the uh i believe that the

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total number of jews in europe who died under german control or access control during the second

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world is probably in the neighborhood of a million a million and a half i don't think that the germans even

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had under the control six million jews during the second world war this was confirmed i think by

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a report that was issued by the international labor office and uh and by various there's a number of

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reasons why i say that okay we have to take a break but when we come back we're going to meet some

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survivors of the holocaust and they'll tell us what they saw and whether or not what they're saying

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both mark and david is true or false we'll be back in just a second

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we've been talking about the holocaust with revisionist mark weber and mr david cole but

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joining us right now are dr michael thaler michael is a president of the holocaust center of northern

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california michael is also a survivor who lost more than 60 members of his family in the holocaust also

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joining us for ernest and anna hollander they are both survivors and his entire family was wiped out

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in auschwitz now before we even go any further in discussion ernest could you take us back to that

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day in 1944 when your family arrived at auschwitz yes sure uh first of all i'd like to make an opening

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statement that uh i watched before on the television uh the revisionist what they said and i feel it's

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completely wrong it's completely not true uh because i've been there and i saw what happened

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and i came tonight with pain and agony to tell you all that these stories but i also feel very bad and

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i feel sorry for these people who after 50 years still claiming it was not a holocaust and tried they

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tried to hide behind the truth well why don't you tell us some of the truth ernest let us know this is

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the truth in 1939 when hitler occupied czechoslovakia the part of where i live the kapeti mountains they

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gave to the hungarian government and as they took over the the government right away they fired every

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jew from state city and county jobs jew couldn't hold anymore a job a government job well didn't go too

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long where they started taking all their properties and before the year was over we had to wear yellow

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stars jews couldn't get out in the street anymore regular just certain time shopping stuff like that

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in 1942 they said that every jew have to have a hungarian citizenship papers now we had close to three

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quarter of a million jews living in carpetia mountains more than half didn't have hungarian

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citizenship papers we were lucky my father was born under austrian and hungarian regime

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and we were able to get a citizenship papers okay but that's before the war and so i want you to bring

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us up during the war 1942 that was 1941 end of 41. okay they did 41 but bring us up to the point when we

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know the historical things that took place but we need to know whether or not the holocaust itself

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took place what happened in 1944 what did you see with your own eyes when you arrived in 1944 i had eight

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brothers and sisters four brothers four sisters my father and mother we arrived finally to auschwitz

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where the right away took away my mother and three little sisters and they killed them killed them in

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the crematoriums and the gas chambers the rest of the family went to work to labor camps where my father

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was working in a railroad station and working in a sawmill where he cut off his left arm the blade

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somehow cut his hand they put him against the wall they shot him right away they never kept somebody in

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the camp if he could learn his piece of bread and a little hot soup now when you say they took your

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mother and your three younger sisters away right there on the spot and they took them away to the

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gas chamber right and this was in auschwitz how do you know that that's exactly where they took them

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to because we stayed two days in auschwitz and some people who worked in the crematoriums some people who

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worked in the gas chambers they told us that they saw all these people who dr mengala the angel of that

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send them to the left they've been straight into into the gas chambers and into the crematoriums

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now dr dr thaler you know a lot i mean a lot about the history of the holocaust you've heard what

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both these gentlemen have to say do you think that they're right or is it is it even worth the

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discussion that we're having today well i think that the discussion today is merely to allow those

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people the vast majority of course who don't really know what happened uh an opportunity to to really

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find out what the truth is and what you just heard is a tissue of lies it's basically a combination of

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half truths uh fantasy and uh and and downright uh falsehood and uh you know i can begin uh taking

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it apart very easily let's start from the very beginning why the the claim is that there were no

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gas chambers right there was no uh plan to annihilate the jews start with the gas chambers and tell me why

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that's that's not true all right um well i'll start with the most recent evidence though it's been 50

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years most recent evidence produced by the young uh historians in germany german historians working

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on german uh evidence german documents have shown in the last five years that the entire program

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including the gas chambers uh originated from a program which they uh nazis called the euthanasia program

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which is typical of the terminology that they use they always inverted the real meaning euthanasia

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you know there's going to be an initiative on the california ballot on euthanasia and euthanasia

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literally means mercy killing and the way we talk about euthanasia it means at the request and at the

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desire of the patient when they want to end their life okay the nazis use that term just the opposite

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to kill people to murder the mass murder people whom they no longer desired uh to be alive because

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they were useless to them they couldn't work they were blind they were deaf they even killed soldiers

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who came back from the front on this program now we can get that but that doesn't tell me about gas

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okay tell me well okay in order to institute this program throughout germany there were installations set

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up with gas chambers which were disguised as shower rooms in places like um hadamar um um gross gross egg

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brandenburg sonnenstein um hartheim by lintz and so on where they developed this entire program

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where they took up to 80 000 german children and people who were as i said useless to the reich

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and simply gassed them with the excuse of taking them to the showers and then cremated them and by 1941

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august 1941 there was such an outcry in germany from the bishops and from mistakes that they made by

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sending two urns to one family you know for one child that they terminated the program and at that point

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they took the staff of this entire program took them to the killing camps sobibor belzitz treblinka

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and many of those people became the commanders and the leading people both in the construction of

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the gas chambers and and in the use of the gas chambers they also had experimented with the cyclone

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b gases during that eastern asia program and so there is physical there is physical evidence and there is

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also strong documentation brought out by the german historians themselves and this was the beginning

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of that program which was then later applied for the destruction of the jews yes sir yes sir um i just

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mind uh it's a comment and question directed to you two on the end it seems like you're running around

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mark and david um you seem like you're running around um in two ways one the gas chambers you say

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there prove it there weren't any well inside the third reich prove um talks about it there are personal

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experiences that talk about it that should be enough um and that they they have proof of them being

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there second is that you say six million that's well what it maybe it's less or whatever maybe it is

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maybe it was a million so what that's a million people i mean that's a lot well now

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um

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we are not trying to downplay the seriousness that anybody died but you just said for example we ought to

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have enough evidence that's enough place closed that's enough forget about your questions let me

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say one thing and let me present something to you how for example do you uh come back at the two

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forensic studies that have been done to get the supposed gas chamber buildings at auschwitz and the

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johnny which proves forensically and the first one was conducted by a man from boston named fred lucher fred

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lucher had built execution equipment for american prisons and he was very good at it and he was recommended

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for that job but the second forensic report was done by the people who run auschwitz the people who run

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the auschwitz museum and it proved that there could not have been cyanide gassings in those chambers how

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do you come back to that all right we'll find out how we come back to that as soon as we take a break

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we'll take a break we'll take a break when we'll be back right after this

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we've been talking about the holocaust with revisionist and survivors and for

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both mark and david if we were to presuppose that the holocaust did not take place and we were to

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presuppose that there were no gas chambers there were um no mass burials and no mass mass gassings

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then what we're saying is that someone had a conspiracy to mislead the entire world why for 50

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years would jewish people want to conspire to mislead the entire world you see now you're reading

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something into that you're saying they want to conspire if uh if in fact this was a conspiracy

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propaganda set up written by people presented by people it was the soviet government the british

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government and the american government and nuremberg after the war the reason that this thing there's

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most war propaganda ends up dying x number of years after the actual war one of the reasons however

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that this uh particular issue has grown in importance since the war is because

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the jewish people have taken it as a very personal issue it is very important in israel it was very

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important for the founding of israel this does not make them conspirators it doesn't make them bad

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people at all it's an issue that they take very personally and in the western world uh jews are

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usually very successful they have and i'm speaking as a jew and i'm not trying to say that they in any

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way do anything wrong to become successful but what matters to jews uh can oftentimes be reflected in

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western society if you were going to go to asia though this this uh the jewish holocaust wouldn't

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matter one way or another because there are not all that many jews who have any positions of of

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influence in a country like cambodia dr thaler is like like turning in his seat what what did you want

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to say well first of all i think it's uh already false to call these people revisionists as the

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department of history and duke um the all the professors of history and duke wrote in response to one of

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their ads in the campus newspaper these people are not revisionists they don't revise they are deniers

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they're basically denying the truth rather rather than revising the truth and dr thaler let me also

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i'm gonna let you finish your point but then there is also the point that they are questioning

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history and we know for a fact let me finish my point we know for a fact that history in this

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country in the books that we see in this country is written incorrectly in a number of ways

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that's why i'm going to show you in a second go ahead but every single point where it gets close

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to the actual data the actual information the actual facts it's falsehood for instance this issue about

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this man luster fred uh or frank luster jr who i just heard quoted as a foremost engineer you know with

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gas chambers i didn't say the word engineer okay he you know i know why you didn't okay but fred lucher

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might not have been a licensed engineer but did he not have the job of building gas chambers and other

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execution equipment for major american prisons was he not profiled on prime time live in the atlantic

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monthly as an expert no but david let him finish this is a lie the fact is the man masqueraded as an

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engineer a builder of these chambers and then he was arraigned in massachusetts for practicing

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engineering without a license he is not registered as their engineer the only uh scientific training

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he ever had was a ba in history he was hired by okay okay so so dr thaler we've refuted the fact that

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this man had any qualifications the question boils down whether there was cyclone b gas used or not

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so in 1988 for a fee of 35 000 he went to uh birkenau and he scraped the walls and he did some hocus

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pocus and he came out 50 years later with the statement that there was no gas and the court in

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canada in which this was tried threw it out and declared him a non-expert wait a second sir we can't

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hear you up there okay this is a matter of record all right let's stop there for a second and you've been

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trying to get in go ahead i am a living proof of this i was age of 13 when they took

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me to auschwitz with my family i'm the only one who survived and i was invited not too far from the

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gas chambers and we knew exactly where then they brought in jews and they burned them we smelled

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we breathed that air we smelled that air and we knew we used to say to each other you see where we are

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burning the jews i was not too far from the crematorium when it happened when it happens and i was 13 years

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of age at that time my whole family is wiped out yes sir yes the holocaust is big business

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because uh germany so far has given the jews i think at least 200 billion dollars so it's big business

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and some of you are still getting a thousand dollars a month and a lot of people don't know this and then

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uh people don't realize who brought the slaves to america they were jewish ships

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wait a minute that's a whole that's a whole nother thing let's take a break because what the issue

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that we're talking about today is whether or not there was a holocaust we'll talk about slavery and

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who brought him here later we'll be back after this we're not going to let you go

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we've been talking about the holocaust with revisionists and survivors and you wanted to

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make a statement yes uh i'd like to ask a question that's specific in nature directed towards david over

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there uh it's we we have all seen the the pictures that were shown just before the show of the gas

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chambers of the metal metal gates and everything like that if you say there were no gas chambers what

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were those specific pictures pictures of what now we saw pictures of a mass grave we saw pictures of

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dead bodies and we saw pictures of a crematoria uh did you see pictures of a gas chamber because uh

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i think you've been smoking something before the show we did not see any pictures of a gas chamber

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oh wait wait david we don't have to accuse the guy of being on drugs what he saw was what what

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what i've seen in several specials across the country and in those specials they showed me

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those same i specifically made the point earlier no one doubts that there is a building for example

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that you can go to an auschwitz and take the tour off and they say well here's the gas chamber they also

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will tell you something like when the jews died they all died pressed up against the door however the

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door to the so-called chamber opens in now the germans are not stupid people and if they were going to

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build a room where hundreds of people would die pressed up against the door don't you think they

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would make the door to open out okay all right let him finish let him finish his question i'm sitting

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like pins and i must answer a question he said it was there was no holocaust there was no crematoriums

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and no gas chambers uh he said it was no gas chambers uh eichmann's right hand who the notorious

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eichmann was the master builder of auschwitz of the crematoriums and the gas chambers his right hand

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he had figured out that to kill a jew cost three quarter of a cent then they came out with a cyclone

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gas that it cost only a half a cent so they saved a penny i had quarter of a cent by mass killing and he

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felt so bad about it that he smuggled out some papers to the swedish government and the germans had

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very book very good bookkeeping see ernest these are things these are points when we go through

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this and historically wait a second doctor when we go through this historically there's no way for us

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to know what he was thinking whether he smuggled this or that the only thing that we can know is

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whether or not there is fact let this gentleman answer ask finish his question you're gonna finish

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it very quickly right right what so what were the uh metal chambers that we saw with the metal gates

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coming out and the dead bodies inside there were crematoria there and they did cremate bodies uh

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and we think we feel for example that the building in auschwitz that you go to that is said to be the

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gas chamber was in fact the morgue and you can actually see where walls have been knocked down

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where they used to be separating the place into different rooms one other real quick thing if i may

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a point about the cyclone b gas that i'd like to make now the nature of the cyclone b is very important

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uh the germans said the cyclone b was there to disinfect prisoners in their clothes to try and cut

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down on the typhoid epidemic which we all admit was going on in the camps if the gas was there not to do

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that but to kill jews how come there was just as much gas in the camps that were never said to

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function as execution camps as there are in camps like auschwitz and camps that were supposedly meant

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to function okay now dr thaler why don't you answer look it's absurd this whole discussion is crazy

382
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we can't come in with the mountains of documentation and eyewitness reports and and and and and uh case

383
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records that clearly established the truth of what went on with the gas chambers and with the killing

384
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squads i just want to state that my name is michael thaler and i am willing to mortgage my home and put

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00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:51,920
up fifty thousand dollars to anyone who comes in with acceptable evidence acceptable by scholarly

386
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:58,560
historian standards that there was no gas chambers okay end of discussion i'm not going to continue this

387
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,760
with these people all right yes sir yes i have a comment uh quick it's very quick because we gotta go uh

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first of all i have the greatest sympathy for all innocent people who die in war but the jewish

389
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experience is not unique i happen to be of ukrainian descent and seven million of my people were

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murdered and a disproportionate number of the perpetrators of these crimes in the ukraine the

391
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ukrainian famine happened to be jews uh trotsky beria drzinski and i'd like to know when i'm going to get

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my reparations for my murder okay that's that's also another issue we'll take a break and we'll answer

393
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:49,840
when we come back we'll take a break

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you had a question sir yes i am a holocaust survivor and i'm the only one left from a family of seb

395
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i would like to reply to the gentleman that says that ukrainian seven million ukrainians were killed

396
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the ukrainian were the biggest collaborators with the germans they were even hired and worked in the

397
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concentration camps okay to help exterminate jews but let's so but do me a favor let's let's start

398
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let's let's not go back and forth from one one race or another let's answer the question about the

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holocaust you were there also i also would like to tell you that the lady made a remark my wife was 14

400
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years old when she and her mother were taken to auschwitz and when her mother was ill and she

401
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,360
couldn't work any longer they took her to the crematorium and burned her now these are facts

402
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,160
that my wife is alive and she is here and she had told me those stories they burned her they burned her

403
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,760
they burned her that's right because she could not work because she cannot work she was too big to work

404
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,200
before you go in i'd say this david this is a point and this is a jewish gentleman you are jewish

405
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:58,080
here's a man who who has lived his whole life knowing having these feelings knowing what took

406
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,360
place in his life i have to ask you this because it's coming to me do you dislike yourself because

407
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:09,360
you were jewish and you return the other way uh two things real quick first as an atheist and people

408
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,160
all over the world every day claim to see god i'm always willing to to believe that people can mislead

409
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themselves very easily but secondly i also would like to say that um i want people to understand what my

410
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:26,720
peculiar peculiar position is which is i hear eyewitnesses and then i hear other forensic and

411
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:31,760
factual evidence what am i supposed to do would you like me then to just jump to the conclusion go

412
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,560
along with the flow and what if everybody did that about every subject i have serious questions and i

413
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,120
would like to be addressed no one has yet addressed my question about cyclone b gas no one has yet

414
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,880
addressed my question about the audience that's that's not authorities on cyclone b gas go ahead anna well

415
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:52,880
they should be here i want to tell david wanting he should have been where i was he would have see

416
00:40:52,880 --> 00:41:06,160
what life is all about we used to get up every morning three o'clock in the morning they used to

417
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:12,960
put us in in a line and they used to call it sailor pal and they used to pick from each day from us to

418
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:19,680
go to those gas chambers day by day we lived with that we dreamt with that and we slept with that

419
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,320
well i'd like to ask the revisionists i've heard that you don't believe that there were gas chambers

420
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:33,600
do you believe that genocide did indeed take place and what exactly is your definition of genocide

421
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,800
if you mean by genocide uh the kind of treatment that was matted out to the american indians or the

422
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,600
black scott then there was genocide and there was a for a policy a kind of genocide against the jews

423
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,320
in europe during the second world war i would say yes but the holocaust is defined rather differently

424
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,480
it's defined as the systematic extermination of six million jews i do not think that there is

425
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,680
evidence for that the word holocaust itself is a more or less modern creation it wasn't used during

426
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:02,880
the war it wasn't talked about at nuremberg it didn't come into popular usage until the 1960s or 70s

427
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:08,320
go ahead dr thaler i just want to straighten out a few things okay from my own personal experience

428
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,520
again i'm not prepared to discuss this here with these gentlemen who are frauds the point i'm making

429
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:21,440
now is this i i want to make one point first of all there were seven million jews just in the area of

430
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:28,560
poland and russia alone there were fewer than one million jews in the rest of europe so when the germans

431
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:34,720
occupied poland and part of russia they were stuck with all these millions of jews the majority of

432
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:40,800
those jews never got to concentration camps i heard a glib reference to ghettos well i came from one of

433
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:46,000
those ghettos i came from a ghetto and by the way there were hundreds of ghettos not just one or two

434
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:53,280
i came from one of those ghettos in the ukraine and we started out with 11 000 people in 1941

435
00:42:53,280 --> 00:43:01,440
when the when the red army came back in 1944 there were 306 left nobody went to concentration camp we

436
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:09,760
were taken out and shot and i myself watched the last 2500 jews of my town machine guns we got to take

437
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,480
a break okay so you know you saw it we'll be back in just a second

438
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,440
we've been talking about the holocaust with the revisionist and survivors anna you wanted to make

439
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:34,400
one final point yeah i would like to make one point i came here for one reason to tell the world

440
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:42,000
that this holocaust happened and i'm a proof i'm a living proof i'm here to tell you

441
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:49,280
that never again we should watch out for another holocaust to whom it ever happened it should never

442
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:57,200
happen no race no human should let have to kill people we got we got to go join us again on the next

443
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:07,360
month old way himself