1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,580 We've seen a lot of different faces of Julian Assange in the last six months, 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,780 but the suit and the short haircut is new. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,420 Is this a new image or is it courtroom, Assange? 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,940 Well, when you're in this business, people will try and take any point they can 5 00:00:17,940 --> 00:00:25,240 to malign you and stop the power of your publication. 6 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:31,400 And so that's, I guess, the same reasons why politicians dress so conservatively 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,700 when they're under constant attack. 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:42,980 And so that's something that I have to do in order to keep the focus on our material 9 00:00:42,980 --> 00:00:44,520 and keep the focus off me. 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,840 Well, it's been an uphill battle keeping the focus off you. 11 00:00:48,940 --> 00:00:52,960 Has it surprised you, the intensity of attention upon you? 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,980 I don't think it's, actually, I don't think it's surprised me. 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,120 If you look at all, if you think about the situation carefully, I suppose that's inevitable 14 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:08,680 that someone who's associated with a new endeavor that is very controversial 15 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:14,280 and has a lot of very powerful enemies will be the subject of ad hominem attacks 16 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,420 on the person if they can't get an attack on the content. 17 00:01:18,420 --> 00:01:21,040 That's standard fare. 18 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,060 Of course, it's a new situation for me personally. 19 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:26,780 I'm used to... 20 00:01:26,780 --> 00:01:31,440 You've been pretty much a secretive or certainly a private guy all your life. 21 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:38,460 Not entirely, but I have been part of other causes in the past, 22 00:01:38,540 --> 00:01:45,240 but certainly the level of scrutiny and the level of attacks on my person 23 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,180 is like nothing else I've experienced. 24 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:55,980 Possibly, with some exceptions, like nothing else anyone in Australia has experienced. 25 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:05,580 Maybe Lindy Chamberlain has probably had a similar level of attacks against her person. 26 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,960 It's been a pretty steep learning curve, I guess, in the last few months. 27 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,520 Any regrets on how you've handled that journey? 28 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:21,360 Not regrets, but lessons to be learnt is the way I like to put it. 29 00:02:22,780 --> 00:02:26,200 We're all limited by our resources and time and so on, 30 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,180 and these can't come from nowhere and you're constrained by them. 31 00:02:29,860 --> 00:02:39,000 But from that experience, certainly I've learnt a lot about how to deal with some of those attacks that we get. 32 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,880 You would have expected some of the attacks clearly from governments or other people 33 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,900 that are subjected to a few leaks material, 34 00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:51,700 but you've also had a steady barrage of friendly fire 35 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:56,380 from people that have been friends or associates or professional collaborators. 36 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,860 It's been almost endless. 37 00:03:00,220 --> 00:03:01,120 Has that surprised you? 38 00:03:01,540 --> 00:03:02,100 We haven't... 39 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:06,100 Actually, there's only been one Lind and associate. 40 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:07,980 There's been other associates. 41 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:09,840 There's been other people from the newspapers. 42 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,880 It is actually quite interesting. 43 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,600 We saw, even early on, 44 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,660 that there were some people who perceived themselves to be competitors 45 00:03:19,660 --> 00:03:22,080 within our field of play. 46 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,320 And a lot of that is 47 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,740 who is going to be represented 48 00:03:28,740 --> 00:03:34,560 as the vanguard of liberalism? 49 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:41,120 Who is going to be seen to be the shining light in that region? 50 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,220 Is it the Guardian newspaper? 51 00:03:44,220 --> 00:03:46,900 Is it the New York Times within the United States? 52 00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:52,060 And then at a sort of government accountability level, 53 00:03:52,060 --> 00:03:57,900 there's also other smaller groups like Secrecy Newsletter. 54 00:03:57,900 --> 00:03:59,560 No one's ever really heard of it, 55 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,360 but within that area, it's one of the few groups operating. 56 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,340 Cryptome is another small site, but nonetheless operating in that area. 57 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:18,000 And actually, that's where we had the first continuous attacks from. 58 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:25,460 It's quite interesting that although people can claim to hold certain values as the number 59 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:31,680 one motivator in their life, when you look at the actual behavior, what you see is that 60 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:38,680 the number one motivator tends to be keeping their power within their perceived community. 61 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:46,680 And threats to power within their perceived community are seen as threats and dealt with accordingly. 62 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,680 I'd like to get back to that, but just before we move on, one question I haven't asked you is 63 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,680 the current extradition hearings. 64 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,680 I know we're yet to hear the final witnesses, but what's been your experience so far? 65 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,680 How do you think it's going? 66 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,680 I think a lot has come out into the public domain that wasn't there previously. 67 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,680 That's been a sense of relief to you. 68 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,680 That's a sense of relief to me. 69 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:14,680 I mean, because it's an ongoing legal process, it's not something that I can talk about, 70 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,680 the facts of the matter. 71 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:29,680 Yet, at the same time, we have seen other parties, Swedish government, and uncertain individuals. 72 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,680 They're leaking, ironically enough. 73 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:40,680 They're violating their own laws and feeding out selective bits of the material and selective 74 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:48,680 allegations to the media, where we cannot do that if we are to follow the practice and 75 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:49,680 the law. 76 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,680 And that's something that's been very difficult. 77 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,680 So, it is a relief to finally now have a court process where some of this material is 78 00:05:58,680 --> 00:05:59,680 coming up. 79 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,680 Most isn't, because… 80 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,680 It's not relevant to an extradition. 81 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:14,680 Well, European extradition hearings and the treaties that the United Kingdom has with 82 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,680 the rest of Europe, incidentally also with the United States, are such that they do not 83 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:25,680 depend on the evidence at all, or even the complaint in detail. 84 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,680 Yes, they're almost pro forma. 85 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:28,680 They're pro forma. 86 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:29,680 They are formed. 87 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,680 It is literally ticker box justice. 88 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,680 And whether that's been properly conducted. 89 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:41,680 But if you were to win this case, it would be a landmark decision that the presumption 90 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,680 is that extraditions do go ahead. 91 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:50,680 But if you do win it, you've still got an arrest warrant out on you. 92 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,680 It'll be extremely limiting to you if that occurs. 93 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:56,680 Can you travel? 94 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,680 Well, you know, it will be appealed regardless of how this goes for sure. 95 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,680 The prosecution will appeal it, or we'll appeal it. 96 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,680 Yeah, but even assuming the best, which a lot of commentators aren't assuming that 97 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:14,680 you'll be victorious, but even if you are, it's not a comfortable situation to be in, 98 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,680 to have an arrest warrant out on you. 99 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,680 You won't be able to go to Europe. 100 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,680 You presumably can't go to the United States. 101 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:27,680 Well, if we win, I mean, if we win and looking at the amount of evidence that is now coming 102 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,680 out into the public about what has happened and the procedural abuses, I mean the political 103 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,680 flavour may be such in Sweden that it's time to get rid of the thing. 104 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:46,680 But we still have this brewing indictment in the United States for espionage. 105 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:47,680 Yes. 106 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,680 And that will come in any moment. 107 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:50,680 Sometime. 108 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:51,680 Sometime. 109 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,680 Well, I'm sure they're quite comfortable to watch you be skewered on some other charge 110 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:57,680 at the moment. 111 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,680 That's not my reading. 112 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,680 Certainly, Washington is quite happy for that. 113 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:10,680 It's in that political elite and power nexus and people with influence in Washington happy 114 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:11,680 for that. 115 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,680 But remember, there's a lot of careers to be made here. 116 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,680 There's a lot of careers for prosecutors. 117 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,680 There's a lot of careers in the FBI. 118 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,680 There's a very famous case in the United States. 119 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,680 It's already a very famous case in the United States. 120 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:32,680 And people aren't going to want to give up the opportunity to be part of that famous 121 00:08:32,680 --> 00:08:34,680 case so easily. 122 00:08:34,680 --> 00:08:37,680 Well, however, this current situation pans out. 123 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:40,680 It looks like you're going to be in need of a home. 124 00:08:40,680 --> 00:08:45,680 Let's rule out the US, possibly rule out Europe for the short term. 125 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:50,680 Is Australia one of your options or the proper question is what are your options? 126 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:51,680 Yeah. 127 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:54,680 I mean, the support from the Australian people is very strong. 128 00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:59,680 So to that sense, Australia is a very good option. 129 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:06,680 But as we've seen with the statements, especially last year by Gillard and McClellan. 130 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:09,680 Yes, Australia is hardly rolling out the welcome map for you. 131 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:10,680 That's right. 132 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:14,680 I mean, on the surface, it will all be give the Australian people what they demand. 133 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:19,680 Underneath, it will be give the United States everything it wants. 134 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:26,680 And that's something we see even now with the more recent statements by Gillard. 135 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:29,680 A hands-off sort of notion. 136 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:38,680 Pretending to be hands-off statements that there is not anymore an active investigation 137 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:44,680 by the Australian Federal Police into our activities that has been cancelled. 138 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:50,680 But we know that under the surface, in fact, there's not an Australian Federal Police investigation, 139 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:54,680 but there is assistance being afforded to the United States. 140 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:57,680 And that is something that really needs to come out. 141 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:05,680 Gillard, McClellan need to disclose all the assistance they have afforded foreign countries 142 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:12,680 against Australians involved in WikiLeaks and the Australian registration of WikiLeaks as an entity. 143 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:21,680 Well, why do you think the PM and other ministers are hostile, or apparently hostile to you? 144 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:22,680 Well, they're co-opted. 145 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:29,680 I mean, the Australian Labor Party has been co-opted in key positions by the United States since 1976. 146 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:35,680 Well, the WikiLeaks material certainly didn't reflect well upon the Labor Party. 147 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:41,680 Do you think that's effectively showing a well-beaten path from Labor to the American Embassy? 148 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:47,680 Do you think that reflects on their attitude towards you, that they've been embarrassed? 149 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:48,680 Absolutely. 150 00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:56,680 I mean, since the time of golf, there was a view in Washington that that should never happen again. 151 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:03,680 You should never have a rogue Australian Prime Minister going and inspecting secret bases in Prime Gap and so on. 152 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:06,680 It was not to happen again, and it hasn't happened again. 153 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:17,680 And it's not just Australia we see this sort of activity, that the US desire to keep a handle on centre-left, 154 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:25,680 or just the left political group that is likely to get into government, has been very strong. 155 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:32,680 For the Conservatives, there's not the same view that it needs to be penetrated because they're more... 156 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:34,680 They're natural allies, perhaps. 157 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:40,680 Yeah, the view is that the ideological allegiance is there. 158 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:45,680 So the personal compromise is not necessary in the way that we saw with Mark Adib. 159 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:53,680 Were you disappointed at the reaction to the Australian material, the WikiLeaks material that came out on Australia? 160 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:58,680 It was controversial to some degree, but it was fairly muted. 161 00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:00,680 The political response was muted. 162 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:01,680 Did that surprise you? 163 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:02,680 Yes and no. 164 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:12,680 I mean, what we saw, and which we knew we would see, was an exposure about why, some of the 165 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:18,680 reasons why the Australian Labor government, federal government, was taking the position 166 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:20,680 it was taking in relation to us. 167 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:26,680 And that turned around entirely, at least publicly, and some of the underserved things. 168 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:33,680 We must remember that back in December, we had a whole of government investigation into 169 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:43,680 us involving ASIS, ASIO, the Australian Federal Police, and parts of the Cabinet, and the Defence 170 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:44,680 Department. 171 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:47,680 So, I mean, that's just an extraordinary thing. 172 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,680 Absolutely extraordinary. 173 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:54,680 I mean, that's more than the United States was doing. 174 00:12:54,680 --> 00:13:03,680 It is extraordinary to try and demonstrate such compliance simply because I am an Australian, 175 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:09,680 and therefore the Australian government might in some way be blamed for my activities. 176 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,680 And that is completely turned around. 177 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:15,680 All of those have been dropped as a result. 178 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:16,680 As far as you... 179 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,680 All the official investigations have been dropped. 180 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:19,680 Yes. 181 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:25,680 Are you still sensitive or are you still cautious that Australia would extradite you if there 182 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,680 was an American request? 183 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:30,680 Yes, I think that is still a serious issue. 184 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:34,680 Do you feel safer in the UK than you do in Australia? 185 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:35,680 On that... 186 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,680 I think they're about the same at the moment. 187 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:44,680 I mean, the Australian people are a bit stronger than in the UK. 188 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:46,680 We actually have pretty good support in the UK as well. 189 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:51,680 But the Australian people are for sure stronger in their support. 190 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:55,680 We saw the Australian media is stronger in its support as a whole. 191 00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:04,680 We saw a situation where the editors of all the major newspapers and TV stations, with the exception 192 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:10,680 of some key Murdoch assets like the Australian, wrote a letter saying this attack on WikiLeaks 193 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:12,680 should not take place. 194 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:17,680 Whereas we haven't seen an equivalent in the UK. 195 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:28,680 But in terms of governmental interaction, the UK government never had a whole threat and 196 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,680 a whole government investigation. 197 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,680 It never rolled over so rapidly compared to the United States. 198 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:42,680 On the surface there's been some cooperation but there hasn't been a very, very worrying, 199 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:43,680 fast response. 200 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:49,680 Also in the UK you have a coalition of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives and it's a relatively 201 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:50,680 new government. 202 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:56,680 So the bureaucratic capture hasn't happened to the same degree and the Liberal Democrats 203 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,680 are likely to hold things in check a bit more. 204 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,680 We've also seen this very long running case in the UK involving the computer hacker Gary 205 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:11,680 Kinnan, who was alleged to have hacked into the Pentagon looking for UFO related things, running 206 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,680 over about eight years now. 207 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:20,680 And both the leader Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives came out prior to the election 208 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,680 and said that they would try and stop that. 209 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:33,680 So the Expedition Act itself, treaties rather, are up for review in June as a result of that 210 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,680 feeling that they have gone too far in the past. 211 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,680 Would you, firstly would you like to go back to Australia and could you run WikiLeaks from 212 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:44,680 Australia? 213 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:50,680 Well we could if, you know, I would like to go back and this, the political support, perhaps 214 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:56,680 not from certain elements of the Australian Labor Party, but the political, the broad political 215 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,680 support we see in the rest of the Australian community, clearly something that is quite 216 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:11,680 protective to our endeavours and I think is now the strongest in the world. 217 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:18,680 It's possible that per capita maybe Iceland is stronger, but certainly as a strength times 218 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,680 number, Australia is the strongest country in the world for us. 219 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,680 Well your options are reducing in a way of, I mean whatever happens in Sweden is probably 220 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,680 no longer a welcome home for you. 221 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,680 Has Iceland also? 222 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:42,680 Well I mean yesterday, this past week, the Australian, sorry the Swedish Prime Minister has been making 223 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:48,680 certain statements and the Swedish media is quite hostile. 224 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,680 Though that said, there is, there is ground, there is. 225 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,680 This is incredible to say the Swedish media is hostile. 226 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,680 The Swedish media loved you. 227 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,680 You were the messiah, you know, four months ago. 228 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:00,680 Yes, that's right. 229 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:07,680 Now, do you, leaving sexual assault issues completely aside, I understand the sensitivity there, 230 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,680 but do you bear any responsibility yourself, that you've blown that? 231 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:17,680 You had the best safe base on earth, a liberal democracy that supported you. 232 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,680 Well so I thought, but actually we've revealed through these cables and other things that under 233 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:31,680 the surface, that is not true at all, under the surface, Sweden, the Swedish intelligence agency, 234 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:38,680 the Swedish Ministry of Justice was engaging in all sorts of informal arrangements with the United States 235 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:44,680 government, that it was a closet member of NATO as revealed by the United States Ambassador 236 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,680 in cables back to Washington. 237 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:52,680 And that all this needed to be kept from the Swedish public, that even the leader of the 238 00:17:52,680 --> 00:18:01,680 left-wing opposition during her campaign, a lie to the public, saying to the public that 239 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,680 we will pull troops out of Afghanistan. 240 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,680 And when speaking to the US Ambassador saying, no, no, no, that's just bullshit. 241 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:10,680 We feed the public. 242 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,680 Don't worry about that. 243 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,680 When we're into office, we're not going to do it. 244 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:13,680 You must regret this. 245 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,680 You can't afford to lose a friend like Sweden, which it certainly appeared to be. 246 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,680 I mean, you had a very strong support base there. 247 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,680 Some good laws. 248 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:28,680 Have you lost Iceland, do you think, with the defections of some of the WikiLeaks people 249 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,680 there? 250 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:30,680 Or is that an option? 251 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:31,680 No, Iceland's still. 252 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:32,680 Iceland's strong. 253 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:33,680 Yes, Iceland's still very strong. 254 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:42,680 In fact, when Visa, so the State Department pressured a number of the major banks to cut 255 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:49,680 us off entirely outside the rule of law and payment processes, and they did, and Visa was 256 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,680 one of them. 257 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:58,680 The Icelandic Parliament, in response, demanded that Visa show cause as to why their accreditation 258 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:07,680 in Iceland not be completely removed, and that all Visa payments stop in Iceland. 259 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:08,680 That's a strong... 260 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,680 Is it a possible place for you to take... 261 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:16,680 I mean, I guess it comes down to how genuinely concerned you are about returning to Australia. 262 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:23,680 I think it would be unlikely you'd be arrested at the airport, but it must unnerve you to 263 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,680 be in a country that is an American ally, even though you're an Australian citizen. 264 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:34,680 So is it on the top of your list as a place to return to, or are you looking for other... 265 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,680 It all depends on the politics. 266 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,680 So for all these, nearly all... 267 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:47,680 No, all extradition treaties as far as I'm aware, maybe there's a few countries that are 268 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:53,680 exceptions, but nearly all extradition treaties have political exemptions, which is that if 269 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:59,680 they believe a prosecution is occurring for some political reason, then the government, 270 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,680 the host government has the right to say, no, we're not going to do it. 271 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,680 It must be very unsettling for you. 272 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,680 You know, I know you're used to travelling, I know you're used to moving around the world 273 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,680 and moving homes, but it must be unsettling for you. 274 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:13,680 It is unsettling. 275 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:22,680 On the other hand, I take some pleasure from the understanding that Dick Cheney, Donalds Rumsfeld, 276 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:29,680 and George Bush, have to have the same considerations every time they go and do a talk somewhere. 277 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,680 That is actually a small pleasure. 278 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,680 So you don't mind suffering... 279 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:34,680 Well, I seem... 280 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:45,680 When I did this talk, when I presented to United Nations in Switzerland, we had to contact 281 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,680 expedition lawyers there and understand what the various treaty arrangements were with the 282 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,680 different countries and who would I have to represent me in case something went wrong 283 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,680 and who would pay for it, et cetera, et cetera, and what the political climate was and what 284 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,680 it was in the different cantons before I could go. 285 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:01,680 Yeah. 286 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:09,680 And so going through that process, I understand that, in fact, Donalds Rumsfeld has precisely 287 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,680 the same thing every time he wants to go on a holiday or talk or book tour somewhere, he 288 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,680 has to go through all that. 289 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:26,680 So let's not think that Rumsfeld got off scot-free for instituting a torch raising in the United States. 290 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:33,680 Actually, for someone of his... he's not in prison, obviously, but for someone of his stature, 291 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:39,680 these expedition threats and prosecution threats in other countries for human rights abuses 292 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,680 are very time-consuming. 293 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,680 I don't have anything directly related, but... 294 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,680 As you now know. 295 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,680 As far as you're aware, has all the relevant material, the WikiLeaks material dealing with 296 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,680 Australia, has that been released? 297 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,680 No, there's more coming. 298 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,680 As you've seen, I mean, in the past few weeks, there's more material coming out. 299 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,680 And what is the nature of that material? 300 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,680 What do you... how do you read it? 301 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,680 What do you think it reveals about Australia? 302 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,680 Well, it's a pretty spread spectrum. 303 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:16,680 I mean, it involves a number of different large companies and politics, international politics. 304 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:23,680 I don't want to go into any specific detail, obviously, but it's... 305 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:31,680 This type of material covers all major issues. That is the nature of it. 306 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:37,680 And is it of a similar nature to what we've... the small amount we've seen, which is the... 307 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,680 a collusion, perhaps, between individuals and the American government and embassy? 308 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,680 Or is it of a different nature? 309 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,680 I won't comment on that. 310 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:49,680 Okay. 311 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,680 Well, I will ask you directly... 312 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,680 But the... 313 00:22:54,680 --> 00:23:00,680 I will ask you directly, do you believe that the Labor government or the Labor Party has 314 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:06,680 shown to be compromised in the WikiLeaks material, either what we've seen or what's to come? 315 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:16,680 It has been compromised. And the failure to remove Mark Adib is an example of that compromise 316 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,680 spreading to others in the Labor Party. It is not just this individual. 317 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,680 So you don't believe Adib is a... 318 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:24,680 This is not an... 319 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,680 This is not an... 320 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:26,680 Not an individual case. 321 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,680 Not an anomaly, no. 322 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,680 And do you believe the material supports that proposition? 323 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,680 I'm not going to be drawn into the... 324 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:33,680 Specifically? 325 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,680 Yeah, what a choice. 326 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,680 Alright. 327 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:37,680 Um... 328 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,680 With, um... 329 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,680 We spoke about a bit of Friendly Fire at the beginning. 330 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:51,680 As I said earlier, some of the attacks from governments wouldn't have surprised you, 331 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,680 but some of the attacks of friends or people you've worked with might. 332 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:03,680 You had a blossoming relationship with the New York Times and The Guardian that soured very 333 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:04,680 severely. 334 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,680 When did that go off the rails and briefly why? 335 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:10,680 We... 336 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:21,680 For the Cablegate material, we were in a position last year where we could see that the U.S. 337 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,680 intelligence sector as a whole was pulling in favours from every area of the world where 338 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:28,680 we had people located. 339 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:37,680 And we were quite concerned about a sort of mass round-up that would interfere with our 340 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,680 ability to publish. 341 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:52,680 As part of that, we gave a backup copy of the material to The Guardian to be used in the 342 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,680 event that we were no longer in a position to publish ourselves. 343 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:05,680 The deal was that they could read it, they could not publish anything based on it, they 344 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:11,680 could not distribute it to any other organisation, and they could not store it on an internet-connected 345 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,680 computer system. 346 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,680 We understood in journalistic terms the value of this material also, and we wanted to bring 347 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:19,680 in several different groups. 348 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:26,680 We were quite unhappy with how The New York Times had pulled stories from Afghanistan. 349 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,680 For instance, there was a story... 350 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:29,680 That they didn't publish... 351 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,680 That they wrote and then killed. 352 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,680 We were quite unhappy with that. 353 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,680 So we wanted to go instead with The Washington Post and McClatchy. 354 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,680 The result of that... 355 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:45,680 And so we got... 356 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,680 Can I say? 357 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:47,680 I mean, they've clearly breached... 358 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,680 We had a written contract with The Guardian. 359 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,680 Yeah. 360 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,680 If they were to look after this backup copy, they could read it, but they were to not publish 361 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,680 anything from it, they were to not give it to any other organisation, and they were to 362 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,680 store it on a machine that was completely separate from the internet to keep it secure. 363 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,680 The Guardian breached every one of those things. 364 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,680 Although we were in negotiation with other newspapers, it squirreled away an entire copy 365 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,680 to The New York Times. 366 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,680 It stored the material on internet-connected computer systems, where the Chinese intelligence 367 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,680 and God knows who could get it, and it published stories on it. 368 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,680 And it set all this in motion without telling us. 369 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,680 In a situation where we were in a very, very precarious situation, where we had people 370 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,680 in the United States who could have been rounded up at any moment, that we hadn't yet had 371 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,680 our legal strategy prepared. 372 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,680 We were intending to publish Cablegate in January, and we were moving towards that. 373 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,680 But apart from breaches of these undertakings or these understandings that you have between 374 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,680 each other, they've also launched very savage and personal attacks upon you. 375 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,680 Well, that is as a result of them breaching this. 376 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,680 We brought in lawyers as a result- 377 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,680 To try and stop it. 378 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,680 To try and get a month's delay, so we would have time to prepare. 379 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:13,680 And we brought in Le Monde and El Pais because we wanted Spanish and French covered to try 380 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,680 and salvage the best we could from this. 381 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:25,680 But as a result of the New York Times taking what should have been bound for the Washington 382 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:31,680 Post and McClatchy, and The Guardian being part of that, literally a conspiracy to do it 383 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:38,680 by something done in secret against the wishes of, in this case a written contract. 384 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,680 They became oppositional. 385 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:41,680 And there was- 386 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,680 But they're writing deeply offensive, I guess to you, deeply personal, deeply offensive- 387 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,680 That's why they're doing it. 388 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:48,680 That's why they're doing it. 389 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,680 Because it was always known by them that this story would start to come out. 390 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,680 It was known that Der Spiegel was writing a book on what had happened. 391 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,680 Everyone is writing a book. 392 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:00,680 Everyone is writing a book. 393 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,680 I mean, The Guardian, David Lee of The Guardian. 394 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,680 I mean, you worked probably more than anybody else. 395 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,680 You worked very closely with him over a very long time. 396 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,680 Did he- 397 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,680 Did you have any indication- 398 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:11,680 Not more than anyone else, but significantly. 399 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,680 Yeah. 400 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,680 Was there any indication that he was writing a book? 401 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:15,680 No. 402 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:16,680 No. 403 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:17,680 No. 404 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:18,680 So what happened is Der Spiegel- 405 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:19,680 Did he tell you- 406 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,680 Der Spiegel were writing a book over a long period of time, and Der Spiegel told us. 407 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:23,680 Right. 408 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,680 And then The Guardian got wind that Der Spiegel would be writing a book, and it would start 409 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,680 to come out what The Guardian had done, and that would cause a political- 410 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:33,680 Backlash for them. 411 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,680 Backlash for them. 412 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:35,680 Backlash for them. 413 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,680 So then they thought they needed their own interpretation of history. 414 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:40,680 Yeah. 415 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,680 So The Guardian started working a book. 416 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Then The New York Times heard that Spiegel and Guardian were working a book, so The New 417 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,680 York Times came out with a book to try and justify its behaviour. 418 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,680 Yeah. 419 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:55,680 And in both of these processes also, it is not just about who is the perceived moral actor. 420 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,680 Yes. 421 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:05,680 Rather, in the United States, Keller, Bill Keller, the editor-in-chief of The New York Times, 422 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,680 and other people around him are worried about being prosecuted for conspiracy to commit espionage. 423 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:11,680 So they have to- 424 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,680 Distance themselves. 425 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:18,680 They have to distance themselves because one man's collaboration is another man's conspiracy. 426 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,680 Now this is quite interesting. 427 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:21,680 It's quite clear. 428 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,680 Apart from any personal attacks on you, they're trying to distance themselves from you, and 429 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:32,680 in essence, The New York Times and The Guardian claim that they handled the material responsibly, 430 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,680 and you did not. 431 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,680 Do you accept that criticism? 432 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,680 That's what they- 433 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,680 Yeah, they're trying to show that. 434 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:39,680 Yes. 435 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:44,680 That you had a callous disregard for human life, and they had a very high regard for human 436 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:45,680 life. 437 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,680 Was that distinction, if you like, made to you at the time? 438 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,680 Did they ever express concern about the manner in which you handled the material and 439 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,680 the manner in which they would handle the material? 440 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,680 Well, there's different publishing events that we had from time to time. 441 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:06,680 But for Cablegate, the way we set it up is that, in fact, nearly all the material is 442 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,680 redacted by our media partners. 443 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,680 In the beginning, that was Guardian, Spiegel, New York Times, Le Monde, and El Pais. 444 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,680 And then they give us the redactions, and then we publish them. 445 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,680 We actually didn't publish. 446 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,680 We didn't do the redactions ourselves. 447 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:30,680 We delegated that task to these others, mainly just for the amount of labour involved. 448 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,680 And whoever's writing a story about something is in the best place to redact it, because 449 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,680 they know who the principles are. 450 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:58,680 The other aspects is that for the Iraq war diaries, we wanted more time, and the newspapers 451 00:30:58,680 --> 00:30:59,680 refused to give it. 452 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,680 They pushed us forward and pushed our publication date. 453 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,680 For the Iraq material, we wanted more time. 454 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,680 And they refused to give me more time. 455 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,680 And then we pushed and insisted on having more time in order to get redactions done. 456 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,680 And we did, and the process was perfect. 457 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,680 They're certainly taking the high moral ground now. 458 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,680 Was that high moral ground apparent at the time when they were after the material? 459 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:38,680 They, there was some, not the high moral ground, but there was an awareness about potential 460 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:45,680 political backlash in many different areas to try and prevent political backlash. 461 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:54,680 But as to the redaction issues, we relied on, for Afghanistan, Guardian Spiegel and New York 462 00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:00,680 Times predominantly, because they were across the material researching it in a way that we 463 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:07,680 didn't have labour capacity to do, to come and tell us which were the particular classifications 464 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,680 and areas that we need to hold back. 465 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:16,680 So based upon that, we withheld one in five of these documents. 466 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,680 But I mean... 467 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,680 Did they ever suggest to you, did they ever suggest to you that they would cancel the project, 468 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,680 withdraw from the project unless you agreed to withhold certain documents? 469 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:28,680 No. 470 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:29,680 Never? 471 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,680 Never. 472 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,680 Were you involved in the redaction of those documents? 473 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,680 Did you assist them in participating in that function? 474 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:36,680 Which ones? 475 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:42,680 Were you involved in redacting, assisting them in redacting possibly dangerous material? 476 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,680 Yes, we did some of our own. 477 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,680 And we also have had to check. 478 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:54,680 I mean, there's been all sorts of, there's been all sorts of problems and indeed abuses in 479 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,680 that redaction process for Cablegate. 480 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:05,680 Our agreement with them is that they would redact information for Cablegate based on just 481 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:18,680 one criteria, which was the protection of individuals from unfair incarceration or any type of execution, 482 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:19,680 fair or not. 483 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,680 And for no other reasons. 484 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,680 But in fact, the Guardian has been redacting all sorts of things. 485 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,680 And also the New York Times for very different reasons. 486 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:40,680 For instance, the Guardian has been redacting claims that particular companies were corrupt from this US government documentation. 487 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:47,680 Or that in Kazakhstan, the whole elite except bribes is redacted. 488 00:33:47,680 --> 00:34:01,680 Now this is presumably to do with their paranoia about libel suits in the UK being made by these rich and powerful individuals. 489 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:11,680 But it is so pusillaminous is extending to not just, to not just individuals named in this US government cables, 490 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:22,680 but rather to companies like and to then whole sectors such as the elite of Kazakhstan. 491 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,680 To say the least though, it's a blow to you to lose New York Times, to lose the Guardian, 492 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:32,680 to lose some people that you presumably had good relationships with, as well as some WikiLeaks people. 493 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:33,680 I guess you have... 494 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,680 No, very few WikiLeaks people. 495 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:35,680 Some, some. 496 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:36,680 Very few WikiLeaks people. 497 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,680 Well, but have you reflected, I guess you haven't had a lot of time to reflect, 498 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:47,680 you've got a lot of things on your mind, but have you considered that you've played a role in the breakdown of those relationships? 499 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:48,680 Well, I do. 500 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,680 I hope so. 501 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:59,680 Because of the behaviour was so flagrant, so immoral, that yes, I hope that I played a role in the breakdown of those relationships. 502 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:09,680 And do you have the skill and the personality set to build new relationships which you're going to need? 503 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:10,680 Well, we do. 504 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:20,680 I mean, we have ongoing, very effective relationships with the Telegraph, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, 505 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:30,680 with principal media in Japan, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, New Zealand, Australia. 506 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,680 So the mission, the mission goes on. 507 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,680 Italy, Iceland, Germany. 508 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:48,680 And, important point to remember, one of the three, of those initial three principles, Guardian, Spiegel, New York Times, 509 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,680 we still have a very good relationship with Der Spiegel. 510 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:58,680 Der Spiegel never crossed us in that manner, and we still have a good relationship with him. 511 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,680 Did David Lee tell you he was going to write the book? 512 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,680 No. 513 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,680 Did he tell you when he was writing it? 514 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,680 We discovered, actually, no, he didn't. 515 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,680 But I'll tell you what did happen. 516 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:22,680 We had Ian Katz, who's the managing editor of Guardian, come up to talk about some things, 517 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,680 things that we were not particularly happy about. 518 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:38,680 And I said to him, hey, Ian, what's this I hear about, that the Guardian is working on a book through our, you know, through the grapevine, 519 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,680 and that its title is The Rise and Fall of Wikileaks. 520 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,680 I mean, I can scarcely believe there's rumour. 521 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,680 Surely that cannot be true, can it? 522 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,680 And he said, oh, no, no, no, that's not right. 523 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,680 That is not the title. 524 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,680 Yes, we are working on a book, and it is the end of secrecy. 525 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:05,680 And, okay, well, perhaps this was an invalid rumour. 526 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:18,680 One week later, I look on Amazon, and we see the end of secrecy, colon, The Rise and Fall of Wikileaks, published by Guardian Books. 527 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,680 Have you spoken to David Lee since then? 528 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:27,680 We haven't spoken to David Lee since we brought the lawyers in. 529 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:37,680 When we brought the lawyers in, he went white as a ghost, and has never spoken to his organisation since. 530 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,680 And will you speak to him again, can you imagine? 531 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,680 Oh, we know. 532 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,680 I'm getting a wind-up, so I've got two more questions and a goodbye. 533 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:52,680 Well, we're starting to see some impact of the Wikileaks material around the world. 534 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,680 Tunisia has been called the... 535 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,680 I guess there's a point I want to make... 536 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,680 I think you've been generous, actually. 537 00:37:58,680 --> 00:37:59,680 I mean, I think it's... 538 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:00,680 Anyway, I'll... 539 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,680 Yeah. 540 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:13,680 There's a point I want to make about perceived moral institutions, such as The Guardian and New York Times. 541 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,680 The Guardian has good people in it. 542 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:24,680 It also has a coitery of people at the top who have other interests. 543 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,680 David Lee is the brother-in-law of the editor-in-chief, Alan Rusperger. 544 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,680 He is protected there to a degree. 545 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:40,680 So, what drives a paper like The Guardian or New York Times is not their inner moral values. 546 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,680 It is simply that they have a market. 547 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,680 In the United Kingdom, there is a market called educated liberals. 548 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,680 Educated liberals want to buy a newspaper. 549 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:59,680 They buy The Guardian, and therefore an institution arises to fulfil that market, and that institution needs to be managed. 550 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,680 And those people at the top of that institution simply manage the institution that fulfils that market. 551 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,680 What is in the newspaper is not a reflection of the values of the people in that institution. 552 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:17,680 It is a reflection of the market demand for particular material, not a reflection of good values. 553 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:28,680 Well, both New York Times and The Guardian got what they needed from you, and now it would appear want to be very distant from you for their own purposes. 554 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:40,680 Well, the New York Times and Bill Keller want to save their own skins in relation to US Espionage Act, and are trying as fast as possible to sell us down the river to do that. 555 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,680 You feel like the fool guy on this one a bit. 556 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,680 Well, to a degree that is our function. 557 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,680 We don't mind doing that. 558 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:58,680 We want to make everyone else in publishing a bit stronger by taking the heat, but not in the duplicitous manner that the New York Times has done. 559 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:08,680 Do you think it is correct, his assessment, that they were an arm's length organisation, or were they an intimate partner in putting out this material? 560 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:16,680 It is absolute nonsense. They are an intimate collaborator, the timing, how it would be processed, the types of communications. 561 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,680 If you go down, they should go down. 562 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:34,680 It is an intimate partner. If I am a conspirator to commit espionage, then all these other media organisations and the principal journalists in them are also conspirators to commit espionage. 563 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,680 They have got good reason to be peddling away from you. 564 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,680 No. What needs to be done is to have a united face in this. 565 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,680 Clearly it is not. 566 00:40:44,680 --> 00:41:01,680 There is an attempt now, a very worrying attempt in the United States, to erect a new precedent, which is that in the national security sector, 567 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:15,680 that any journalist that corresponds with a source is committing espionage if at some time a classified communication is made. 568 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,680 That is a very, very dangerous precedent that is trying to be set. 569 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:26,680 Because that is the end of investigative journalism about national security related matters in the United States. 570 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,680 And historically, what happens? 571 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,680 Well, there is some issue on the world scene. 572 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:38,680 A journalist calls up their sources or meets them in a park or at a cocktail party and says, 573 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:45,680 Hey, do you know anything about this? What do you know about it? What can you tell me? What can you give me? 574 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:53,680 And then information or documents are handed over subtly about that circumstance. 575 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:59,680 The US administration is trying to say that that activity is espionage. 576 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,680 That is illegal and that is espionage. 577 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:08,680 And that the only thing that may be tolerated is if a journalist has no contact with a source 578 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,680 and a letter arrives in the mail with a document and then that is it. 579 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,680 And that that is tolerated. But any sort of interaction is espionage. 580 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,680 That's the New York Times get out of jail card. 581 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,680 Right. Exactly. And they're trying to do it for us. 582 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,680 We just gave them something. 583 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,680 There was no further communication. 584 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,680 There was no development of this, which is false. 585 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,680 And which is usually false in any sort of journalistic endeavor. 586 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,680 It is usually false and is a very, very dangerous precedent 587 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:44,680 that the New York Times is playing into by saying that's what we did and that's why we're okay. 588 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,680 No, the New York Times should be saying we acted as we always do 589 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:56,680 as any bona fide investigative activity occurs where there is an information exchange. 590 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:02,680 We didn't ask anyone, go out and smash the wall down to a building 591 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,680 and open a safe to get material. 592 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,680 But nonetheless, there was a communication that occurred. 593 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,680 I know. I've got two questions and a goodbye. 594 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,680 Well, we're starting to see an impact certainly in the Middle East 595 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,680 from some of this Wikileaks material. 596 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,680 The upheaval in Tunisia has been labelled the Wikileaks revolution. 597 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,680 Are you claiming Egypt as well? 598 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,680 Well, we have to be careful here. 599 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,680 Of course, the actual revolution is always done by the people of the country. 600 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,680 And usually as a result of years and years of abuse. 601 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,680 And there's no difference here. 602 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,680 But it does seem to be the case that material that we published 603 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,680 through a Lebanese newspaper, Al Akbar, was significantly influential 604 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,680 to what happened in Tunisia. 605 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,680 Although often not in the way that most people might think. 606 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:59,680 It was published in Arabic and it worked its way into the Tunisian population. 607 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,680 The Tunisian government banned internet access to Al Akbar, banned internet access to us. 608 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,680 Computer hackers then came into Tunisia and redirected Tunisian government's websites 609 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,680 to Wikileaks. 610 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:17,680 And all this was about six months before the revolution. 611 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,680 Two weeks or so before this individual burnt themselves to death, 612 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,680 which drew a lot of attention and outrage. 613 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,680 And so it was a factor. 614 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:34,680 Perhaps the most important part were that the cable showed that Ben Ali in Tunisia 615 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,680 would not necessarily be backed up by the United States. 616 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:45,680 Rather it was the army that would be supported by the United States. 617 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:53,680 And my suspicion is that that gave the army and people around the army in Tunisia 618 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,680 the confidence that they needed to attack the ruling political elite. 619 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:04,680 Additionally, those cables were read by all the surrounding country intelligence agencies 620 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:11,680 and that would have affected their decisions on whether they should intervene to support Ben Ali 621 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,680 in particular ways. 622 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:23,680 And then there's no doubt that Tunisia was the example for Egypt and Yemen and Jordan 623 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,680 and all the protests that have happened there. 624 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,680 There have been interesting changes in Yemen. 625 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:33,680 I mean, these surrounding countries have been, say, well, yes. 626 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,680 But this is almost textbook WikiLeaks theory. 627 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,680 You've always said if information was available, there would be a political flow on it. 628 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,680 And then you must be sort of ticking your boxes. 629 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,680 Are you going, there would be an impact? 630 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,680 It's extremely gratifying. 631 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:54,680 Yes, I mean, I've had all these troubles in London. 632 00:45:54,680 --> 00:46:07,680 But to see this happening elsewhere is, you know, worth every cent of time wasted on the other thing. 633 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:14,680 What we've seen is that while Tunisia has gotten rid of their political elite, 634 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,680 although it's still early days yet, we don't know precisely what the make-up of the government will be. 635 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,680 But I suspect it will be considerably better than what it was. 636 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:28,680 And Egypt is in the throes of something. 637 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:34,680 In fact, that whole region, the political leader of the whole region is handing out concessions hand over foot 638 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,680 in terms of changing positions of the cabinet, greater representation of different groups, 639 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:43,680 watering down various security laws and so on. 640 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:50,680 All the things that the people and the liberalisations that are called for in the Middle East 641 00:46:50,680 --> 00:47:01,680 of many different types are being handed out like confetti or lollies to the people in order to prevent a total overthrow. 642 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:07,680 So either there, in these regions, there will be a total overthrow of the political elite 643 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:18,680 or concessions, important and very important concessions will be extracted. 644 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,680 Last question. 645 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,680 You're in the thick of things now and I'm sure it's hard to see your way out of some of these issues, 646 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,680 but let's project forward, if you can, a couple of years. 647 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:35,680 What do you think you'll be doing and what role will you be fulfilling? 648 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:41,680 Well, if this US case goes on, I mean, that could, based upon Gary McKinnon 649 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,680 and his expedition case from the United States as a request of the Pentagon, 650 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,680 that could go eight or nine years. That's sort of reality. 651 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:56,680 So people say, well, isn't that appalling? And of course it is appalling. 652 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:04,680 On the other hand, it does provide us with a platform to talk about censorship, 653 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:10,680 talk about how important free speech is, the right to publish, the right for people in the community, 654 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:18,680 to communicate knowledge to each other, the right, the importance of keeping the historical record accurate and preserved. 655 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,680 And it would not just be about a hundred years ago, but it would be about last week. 656 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:27,680 So that's an important thing. And... 657 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,680 But this is a very intense period. You're under incredible pressure. 658 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,680 Do you see yourself maintaining that situation? 659 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,680 Well, you know, you end up with a new normalcy. This is the new normalcy for us. 660 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:49,680 And of course, it is sometimes very trying, but it's interesting how fast we adapt to things 661 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,680 and maybe being a small organisation, we're able to do that. 662 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:53,680 Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for your time. 663 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:54,680 OK. Thanks. 664 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:55,680 All right. Thanks. 665 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:56,680 All right. Thanks.