1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,280
Annie Jacobson is a journalist and is the author of Area 51.

2
00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,940
Her current book, Operation Paperclip, discusses the end of World War II

3
00:00:13,940 --> 00:00:19,340
and the American government's decision to accept high-level German scientists inside its borders,

4
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,840
some of which had done monstrous things.

5
00:00:22,740 --> 00:00:25,740
This decision accelerated U.S. scientific capabilities

6
00:00:25,740 --> 00:00:28,180
but also brought into question its ethical standing.

7
00:00:28,180 --> 00:00:30,860
So to talk about that, please welcome Annie Jacobson.

8
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,180
How's the sound? Good.

9
00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,680
Thank you so much, Politics and Prose, for having me and welcome everyone.

10
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,800
I'm Annie Jacobson. I'm going to talk to you tonight about Operation Paperclip.

11
00:00:48,340 --> 00:00:50,140
And I really want to thank everyone for coming.

12
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:56,000
It's really my favorite part of the book tour and really writing the book is just being able to

13
00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,340
look people in the eye that read my book and speak with them about it.

14
00:01:01,940 --> 00:01:07,840
So I'm going to take you through about 60 slides and tell you a little bit about Operation Paperclip

15
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:09,300
and then I welcome your questions.

16
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,460
One of the things that people often ask me is, why would I write about such a subject?

17
00:01:16,740 --> 00:01:19,940
Operation Paperclip was a classified military program.

18
00:01:19,940 --> 00:01:29,400
It had a public face, so the idea was that you couldn't very well have 1,600 Germans running around the United States

19
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:37,500
in various military facilities or ultimately in academic institutions and not have an explanation why.

20
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:44,700
And so with the German scientists came a propaganda campaign to call them good scientists.

21
00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:47,700
That may be the case. There were 1,600 of them.

22
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,380
That may certainly be the case with some of them.

23
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,220
And I've actually had people at every one of my book readings so far

24
00:01:54,220 --> 00:01:58,500
who had a father or an uncle that was part of Paperclip.

25
00:01:59,060 --> 00:02:04,840
But what I will tell you is the men that I focused on had very dark pasts.

26
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,300
And I'm going to tell you a little bit about that.

27
00:02:06,820 --> 00:02:08,320
So how did I report the story?

28
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,060
I was originally working on this book, my first book, Area 51.

29
00:02:12,060 --> 00:02:18,360
When I came across these two aircraft designers, and they were the Horton brothers.

30
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,580
They designed this aircraft, the Horton All-Wing 5.

31
00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:28,220
And you can see it looks remarkably like the B-2 stealth bomber.

32
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,940
And when I first saw those two images next to one another,

33
00:02:32,060 --> 00:02:35,260
I suddenly realized without very much more explanation

34
00:02:35,260 --> 00:02:39,460
how much technology we in fact got from the Reich.

35
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:40,720
And I wanted to know more.

36
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,640
What I learned was that while the Horton brothers were overlooked for Paperclip,

37
00:02:46,020 --> 00:02:47,420
their boss was not.

38
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:48,280
This is their boss.

39
00:02:48,860 --> 00:02:50,940
This is Colonel Siegfried Kneemeyer.

40
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,960
He was one of the Reich's top ten pilots.

41
00:02:54,420 --> 00:02:56,080
And he flew on spy missions.

42
00:02:56,220 --> 00:03:02,060
This photograph here is Kneemeyer about to fly over Norway to choose bombing targets.

43
00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:05,980
And Kneemeyer, you see, that's his Paperclip photo there.

44
00:03:05,980 --> 00:03:10,120
And when I learned Kneemeyer came to the United States,

45
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:16,900
I wondered how you could go from having Hermann Goering as your boss, as he was.

46
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,200
Now, keep in mind, Goering was in charge of the German Air Force, the Luftwaffe.

47
00:03:21,860 --> 00:03:28,020
Kneemeyer was so important to Goering that in documents he refers to him as my boy.

48
00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:33,520
So the question for me, in my mind, was how do you have this as your boss

49
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,840
and then suddenly have the Pentagon as your boss?

50
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:42,140
I learned that when Kneemeyer retired from the U.S. Air Force in the mid-70s,

51
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:48,040
he was given the Department of Defense Distinguished Civilian Service Award.

52
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:53,940
And that is the highest award that a scientist can get from the Defense Department.

53
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,740
And I wanted to know how this could be.

54
00:03:57,220 --> 00:04:00,060
I tracked down one of Kneemeyer's grandchildren,

55
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,600
who courageously agreed to share the story of his grandfather with me,

56
00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:08,120
including a box of papers that he had in the attic.

57
00:04:08,780 --> 00:04:11,640
And one of the most interesting things that Dirk Kneemeyer said to me

58
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,720
and made me know that I wanted to write this story to research and report it,

59
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,000
was he said, Annie, many of my family members say,

60
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,380
do not speak about Siegfried's past.

61
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,400
But he, being my age, said, you know,

62
00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:31,040
a Google search very quickly reveals that Kneemeyer was Goering's right-hand man.

63
00:04:31,780 --> 00:04:37,580
And he said he would rather know the truth about his grandfather than not know it.

64
00:04:37,580 --> 00:04:42,580
And so that was one example of a seed planted that I knew

65
00:04:42,580 --> 00:04:45,520
there is more to be learned about Operation Paperclip.

66
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,720
I'm going to take you back briefly to the fall of 1944.

67
00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:52,740
This is Germany there in dark blue.

68
00:04:52,980 --> 00:04:55,080
And, of course, the Allies have landed at Normandy.

69
00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:57,800
They're going at Germany this way.

70
00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,380
The Soviets are coming this way.

71
00:05:00,140 --> 00:05:05,980
And immersed inside the Army soldiers are a group of scientists

72
00:05:05,980 --> 00:05:10,580
led by a particle physicist named Samuel Gudsman.

73
00:05:10,580 --> 00:05:13,860
And that operation was sort of the precursor to Paperclip.

74
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,340
It was called Operation Alsace.

75
00:05:16,940 --> 00:05:19,940
Samuel Gudsman and his team have one mission.

76
00:05:20,340 --> 00:05:23,960
That is to find out about what was known as ABC weapons,

77
00:05:24,420 --> 00:05:26,600
atomic, biological, and chemical.

78
00:05:27,180 --> 00:05:32,220
They find out very quickly that Hitler's atomic program is not what we had feared.

79
00:05:32,220 --> 00:05:38,380
That was lucky for us, but as Hitler told his war and weapons minister, Albert Speer,

80
00:05:39,020 --> 00:05:41,220
nuclear science is Jewish science.

81
00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:42,280
This is what Hitler said.

82
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,160
And, therefore, that atomic program had not progressed the same way

83
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,060
that the biological and chemical weapons had.

84
00:05:49,060 --> 00:05:56,040
Very quickly, Samuel Gudsman, in a small apartment in Strasbourg, France,

85
00:05:56,420 --> 00:06:01,280
learns about this man, Dr. Kurt Blum, the deputy surgeon general of the Reich.

86
00:06:01,820 --> 00:06:06,340
And he also learns about this man, Dr. Walter Schreiber,

87
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,580
the surgeon general of the Third Reich.

88
00:06:09,180 --> 00:06:12,580
What Gudsman finds, and these papers that I looked at were remarkable,

89
00:06:12,580 --> 00:06:18,520
because they're just a sort of seemingly benign correspondence between scientists.

90
00:06:19,060 --> 00:06:22,640
The apartment belonged to a doctor named Dr. Eugen Hagen,

91
00:06:23,060 --> 00:06:28,440
once a temperate man, worked in the United States on a Rockefeller Foundation scholarship.

92
00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:32,760
And Hagen was writing to Himmler and saying,

93
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:38,940
of the hundred prisoners you sent me, a group of them died in transport.

94
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:40,580
Please send more.

95
00:06:40,580 --> 00:06:43,900
And this is a terrifying moment for Operation Alsace,

96
00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:47,900
because they realize that the Reich is experimenting on humans

97
00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:52,200
from the concentration camps to push medical science in a manner

98
00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,920
that cannot be pushed if you're experimenting on rabbits and guinea pigs.

99
00:06:57,700 --> 00:07:02,740
So Dr. Blum and Dr. Schreiber are now on the top of the target list

100
00:07:02,740 --> 00:07:06,740
for Operation Alsace and ultimately Paperclip.

101
00:07:06,740 --> 00:07:10,220
There you have Hitler and Goering.

102
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:16,220
And of course, the third horrible triad of this group of folks

103
00:07:16,220 --> 00:07:21,900
who are in the target eye of the Allies is Himmler.

104
00:07:22,580 --> 00:07:27,340
And Himmler is overseeing a vast network of state-sponsored slavery.

105
00:07:27,980 --> 00:07:30,920
And it's the slaves from the concentration camps

106
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,460
that are assembling the weapons.

107
00:07:33,460 --> 00:07:38,640
So you have prisoners being experimented on for some of the programs,

108
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,180
and you have prisoners being used to build rockets and such

109
00:07:43,180 --> 00:07:45,180
for the other weapons programs.

110
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,660
As we're moving across Germany, all across the Reich,

111
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,280
the Allies are coming across hidden troves of treasure like this.

112
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,720
This is a famous photograph of gold.

113
00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,580
But also in these caves, Allies are finding documents

114
00:08:00,580 --> 00:08:01,920
and they're finding weapons.

115
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:03,900
And this is one example.

116
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,880
This little innocuous-looking entrance

117
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,700
is actually the entrance to Nordhausen,

118
00:08:08,820 --> 00:08:12,380
which was the underground tunnel facility

119
00:08:12,380 --> 00:08:15,980
where Wernher von Braun, General Dornberger,

120
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,920
and many other scientists who would later come to America

121
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,800
are working to build the rockets for the Reich.

122
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:25,580
So you see down on the bottom photograph,

123
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:27,920
those are train tracks.

124
00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,380
The rocket parts would go in,

125
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,680
the slave laborers would build them,

126
00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,320
and out of the tunnels on those trains

127
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,900
would come V-2 rockets and body parts.

128
00:08:39,580 --> 00:08:41,160
This is the V-2 rocket.

129
00:08:42,380 --> 00:08:44,180
So one of our teams was sent in.

130
00:08:44,260 --> 00:08:47,300
These men were sent to capture 100 rockets

131
00:08:47,300 --> 00:08:49,840
and to ship them back to the United States

132
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,800
so that we could fly them here at the White Sands Missile Range.

133
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,320
But this is where you really see Operation Paperclip begin

134
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,720
because also, at the same time,

135
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:02,920
you have the scientists.

136
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,000
And you see that an intelligence officer,

137
00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:09,760
the program sort of begins in bits and pieces,

138
00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:11,860
and one intelligence officer says,

139
00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:14,340
we have the rockets, but how about the scientists?

140
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,640
This is von Braun, this is Dornberger,

141
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,960
and two others who I write about in Paperclip.

142
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,760
What's left out of the issue is that Dornberger,

143
00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,140
you can see here, he's with Himmler.

144
00:09:26,540 --> 00:09:28,500
They're both wearing leather coats.

145
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,700
I find this photograph remarkable.

146
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,320
I was not able to get permission to publish it in my book.

147
00:09:34,420 --> 00:09:35,780
I'm happy to show it to you here.

148
00:09:36,340 --> 00:09:37,720
General Dornberger went on

149
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,760
and became a very important part of the Paperclip program.

150
00:09:41,260 --> 00:09:43,180
He worked for Bell Aircraft for years.

151
00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:45,920
He had one of the highest clearances at the Pentagon.

152
00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,640
He was a recruiting officer for Paperclip,

153
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,180
and nothing was ever mentioned of his past.

154
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,240
And this photograph was certainly kept hidden

155
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:55,460
for a rather long time.

156
00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,600
Arthur Rudolph, George Rickey, and Dornberger,

157
00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:02,940
those are all their Paperclip photographs.

158
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,580
Part of what I write about in the book

159
00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:08,520
is how the U.S. military was complicit.

160
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,040
And this is a great moral conundrum

161
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,120
because we were complicit in needing these scientists

162
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,960
to be put forth as the good Germans,

163
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,220
as the benign scientists

164
00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:24,760
who somehow were hiding out from the Reich.

165
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,180
But, of course, we know from the photograph

166
00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:28,680
with General Dornberger that is a fiction.

167
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,260
And, for example, nearby at Nordhausen

168
00:10:33,260 --> 00:10:35,200
was the Buchenwald concentration camp.

169
00:10:35,620 --> 00:10:38,280
And when I traveled to Germany to research the book,

170
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,140
you know, this sign really came across to me

171
00:10:42,140 --> 00:10:43,940
as really remarkable

172
00:10:43,940 --> 00:10:46,560
and something I thought about often.

173
00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:47,040
It says,

174
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:48,740
Yadam das Seine.

175
00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:51,020
It's an old German proverb,

176
00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:52,200
and it means,

177
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,520
does everyone get what they deserve?

178
00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:56,640
And I often wondered,

179
00:10:56,740 --> 00:10:59,280
as I was researching and reporting this question,

180
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:00,660
exactly that.

181
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,760
The scientists were taken to this castle.

182
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,460
Ironically, this had been one of Goring's Luftwaffe headquarters.

183
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,160
It's outside Frankfurt.

184
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,200
And when I went there also

185
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,300
to speak to the old-time caretaker,

186
00:11:17,420 --> 00:11:18,580
he had lots of stories,

187
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:19,480
which I write in the book,

188
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,080
about what it was like

189
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,620
when the U.S. military took over

190
00:11:23,620 --> 00:11:27,000
and set up all the scientists

191
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:27,960
that we were collecting

192
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,700
throughout the ruins of the Reich.

193
00:11:30,180 --> 00:11:32,180
We set them up in this facility,

194
00:11:32,180 --> 00:11:34,140
and we began to interview them.

195
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,900
These are a number of the scientists

196
00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:37,960
who were in,

197
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,280
it was called Dustbin,

198
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,040
a little humor by the Allies there,

199
00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:43,780
but these are some of the scientists

200
00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:46,120
who were kept there.

201
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:48,220
One of the scientists

202
00:11:48,220 --> 00:11:49,720
we couldn't find at first

203
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,060
was Dr. Ambrose.

204
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:52,940
Ambrose, I think,

205
00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:55,120
is probably the most nefarious character

206
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:56,340
that I write about in the book,

207
00:11:56,380 --> 00:11:57,880
and I'm going to tell you briefly why.

208
00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:01,560
Ambrose was Hitler's favorite chemist,

209
00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:02,880
and I don't say that lightly.

210
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,360
I found a document

211
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,700
in the National Archives

212
00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:06,940
that I don't believe

213
00:12:06,940 --> 00:12:09,060
had ever been reported before.

214
00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:11,060
It shows an award

215
00:12:11,060 --> 00:12:13,140
that Ambrose was given by Hitler

216
00:12:13,140 --> 00:12:15,580
of one million Reichsmarks.

217
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,520
And the reason that Ambrose was given that

218
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,100
was because he co-invented sarin gas.

219
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,300
The A in sarin stands for Ambrose.

220
00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:29,400
But he also invented synthetic rubber

221
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:30,060
for the Reich.

222
00:12:30,420 --> 00:12:32,460
And this was a very big deal to Hitler.

223
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:34,680
Tanks need treads.

224
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,580
Aircraft need tires.

225
00:12:37,340 --> 00:12:38,640
Hitler knew the Reich

226
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:39,780
was running out of rubber.

227
00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:42,700
And so when Ambrose invented rubber,

228
00:12:43,260 --> 00:12:45,260
the Fuhrer bestowed him with favor

229
00:12:45,260 --> 00:12:47,620
in the form of this giant financial reward.

230
00:12:48,980 --> 00:12:51,280
Ambrose was also put in charge

231
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:52,940
of a slave labor factory,

232
00:12:52,940 --> 00:12:55,540
none other than at Auschwitz.

233
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,520
And this is an allied intelligence photo

234
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,780
of the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex

235
00:13:00,780 --> 00:13:02,500
in June of 1944.

236
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,900
It's a little hard to interpret

237
00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:07,020
to the naked eye,

238
00:13:07,140 --> 00:13:08,680
but because it's from so high up,

239
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,400
but you see there's Auschwitz up there.

240
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:10,940
It's labeled.

241
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:11,740
There's Birkenau.

242
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,140
And down on the bottom,

243
00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:14,420
you can just barely see.

244
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,000
It says Auschwitz III Buna.

245
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,660
Buna is the name for synthetic rubber.

246
00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:22,940
And this was where Ambrose was manager.

247
00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:26,220
And slaves who were spared the gas chamber,

248
00:13:26,340 --> 00:13:27,820
some of whom I interview for the book,

249
00:13:28,180 --> 00:13:30,020
were sent to Buna to work.

250
00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:31,880
Most of them were worked to death.

251
00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:34,500
Of all the photographs that I found

252
00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:36,000
on my research and reporting,

253
00:13:36,740 --> 00:13:38,580
none bothered me to the degree

254
00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:39,540
that this one did.

255
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,740
It was not the bodies stacked like cordwood

256
00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:43,900
that we all have seen

257
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:45,360
and have horrified us,

258
00:13:45,620 --> 00:13:46,760
but rather it was this.

259
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,760
And it's because of what that sign says.

260
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,280
It says Company Sporting Club IG Auschwitz.

261
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,300
And those are two of Otto Ambrose's colleagues fencing.

262
00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,420
So after a day in the laboratory,

263
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:02,040
they would go for sport and fence.

264
00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:04,000
And as it was explained to me

265
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,160
by the academics at the Fritz Bauer Institute

266
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,040
who allowed me to publish this photograph,

267
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,060
they told me that this sporting event

268
00:14:12,060 --> 00:14:14,220
would take place in the afternoons

269
00:14:14,220 --> 00:14:17,480
well within the sight of the three large chimneys

270
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,620
of the death camp's crematoria.

271
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,220
That Otto Ambrose became part of paperclip

272
00:14:23,220 --> 00:14:24,100
is horrifying.

273
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,060
Dr. Bloma, captured by the Allies,

274
00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:29,020
begins talking.

275
00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:32,280
He's the first high-ranking member

276
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,240
of the Third Reich.

277
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:34,880
Also close to Hitler,

278
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,260
he wore the golden party badge,

279
00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:39,880
which means he had favor from the Fuhrer.

280
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,860
And he begins cooperating with the Allies

281
00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:46,180
and tells them about atrocities,

282
00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:47,720
mass sterilization,

283
00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:49,140
and gassing of Jews.

284
00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:51,880
There's a tug-of-war going on.

285
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,580
One group of scientists

286
00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:56,820
is extremely interested in Dr. Blom.

287
00:14:57,180 --> 00:14:59,040
He's in charge of Hitler's

288
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:00,620
biological weapons program.

289
00:15:01,140 --> 00:15:03,260
He's been working on a bubonic plague weapon.

290
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,260
But there's a tug-of-war going on

291
00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:09,480
because here you have Dr. Leopold Alexander

292
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,100
who has been sent to Germany

293
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:14,500
not to try to find scientists,

294
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:15,960
interrogate them,

295
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:17,080
find out their knowledge,

296
00:15:17,420 --> 00:15:18,720
and decide whether or not

297
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,620
they should be part of Operation Paperclip,

298
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,860
but rather to look for men,

299
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:24,820
specifically science,

300
00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:26,480
specifically doctors,

301
00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:28,060
who might be tried

302
00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:31,160
at the Nuremberg war crimes trials.

303
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:33,180
At the same time,

304
00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:34,340
you have Harry Armstrong,

305
00:15:34,820 --> 00:15:37,080
later the second Surgeon General

306
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,040
of the Third Reich.

307
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,240
Armstrong is interested

308
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,400
in enhancing pilot performance

309
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:43,540
in the United States.

310
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,640
The next war will involve

311
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,860
pilots who fly high, fast, and far.

312
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:50,980
And the Reich,

313
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,400
Harry Armstrong knows,

314
00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:56,460
is far advanced in pilot physiology

315
00:15:56,460 --> 00:15:57,660
at this point

316
00:15:57,660 --> 00:15:59,460
than the U.S. Army Air Forces.

317
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,320
And he wants those German doctors.

318
00:16:03,180 --> 00:16:06,460
He teams up with Dr. Hubertus Strughold,

319
00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:09,300
known as the father of space medicine.

320
00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:11,080
We'll talk about Strughold

321
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,300
a little bit later on.

322
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,140
Strughold was the top man

323
00:16:16,140 --> 00:16:18,340
in Luftwaffe medicine.

324
00:16:20,180 --> 00:16:22,220
When I was doing an interview recently,

325
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:22,800
someone said,

326
00:16:23,060 --> 00:16:26,200
well, could people that were this high up

327
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:26,940
not have known?

328
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,820
And the best analogy I can give you

329
00:16:28,820 --> 00:16:32,620
is imagine being a hedge fund manager today.

330
00:16:32,620 --> 00:16:34,640
And trying to say

331
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,780
that you're not interested in capitalism.

332
00:16:37,340 --> 00:16:39,840
If you were to rise

333
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,500
to the top of your field

334
00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:43,060
in the Third Reich,

335
00:16:43,580 --> 00:16:45,440
you had knowledge of things

336
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,700
and you had a commitment

337
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:47,680
to an ideology

338
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,960
that is almost impossible,

339
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,400
in my estimation,

340
00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:53,420
to say that you didn't know.

341
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:55,060
Nevertheless,

342
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,620
Harry Armstrong and Hubertus Strughold

343
00:16:57,620 --> 00:17:00,140
create a partnership in Germany,

344
00:17:00,140 --> 00:17:01,880
and they hire these men.

345
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,520
This photograph never published before.

346
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,780
Richard Kuhn is in the center,

347
00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:10,800
a very famous Nobel Prize winning chemist,

348
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,620
and many other scientists

349
00:17:12,620 --> 00:17:14,580
who would come to the United States

350
00:17:14,580 --> 00:17:16,940
as part of Operation Paperclip

351
00:17:16,940 --> 00:17:18,600
to work in Texas.

352
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:20,540
But before that happened,

353
00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:22,060
there was a knock on the door

354
00:17:22,060 --> 00:17:22,720
in the Institute

355
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:23,840
where they were all set up

356
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,260
to work in Germany

357
00:17:25,260 --> 00:17:26,920
before their passage

358
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,100
to the United States

359
00:17:28,100 --> 00:17:29,240
could be arranged.

360
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:30,540
And that was from,

361
00:17:30,620 --> 00:17:31,240
as I told you,

362
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:32,680
Dr. Leopold Alexander.

363
00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:34,960
He wanted these three

364
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,180
for war crimes,

365
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:37,800
as he wanted

366
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,280
Dr. Theodore Benziger.

367
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,920
Dr. Theodore Benziger,

368
00:17:42,060 --> 00:17:43,740
when I read about his obituary

369
00:17:43,740 --> 00:17:45,360
in the New York Times,

370
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:46,960
published in 1999,

371
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,200
when Benziger was 94,

372
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,240
or the New York Times

373
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:53,840
lauded his long career

374
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:54,960
for the U.S. Navy

375
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,040
as a doctor.

376
00:17:56,540 --> 00:17:57,280
It talked about

377
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:58,060
how he invented

378
00:17:58,060 --> 00:17:59,060
the ear thermometer.

379
00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:01,120
But it left out entirely

380
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:03,020
that Dr. Theodore Benziger

381
00:18:03,020 --> 00:18:04,840
was part of a small group

382
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:05,420
of doctors

383
00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:06,780
that worked with Himmler.

384
00:18:07,220 --> 00:18:07,900
And when Himmler

385
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:09,140
would show films

386
00:18:09,140 --> 00:18:11,120
of medical murder experiments

387
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:12,600
at the Reich Air Ministry,

388
00:18:13,060 --> 00:18:14,680
he had Dr. Theodore Benziger

389
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:15,860
do the introductions.

390
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:17,560
So this is this kind

391
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:18,360
of whitewashing

392
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:19,400
I found astonishing.

393
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,820
And even more troubling,

394
00:18:22,140 --> 00:18:23,140
when I looked deep

395
00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:24,400
into the Nuremberg files,

396
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:25,460
I found out

397
00:18:25,460 --> 00:18:26,980
that Dr. Theodore Benziger

398
00:18:26,980 --> 00:18:28,980
was on the initial list

399
00:18:28,980 --> 00:18:30,380
to be tried

400
00:18:30,380 --> 00:18:31,440
at the doctor's trial.

401
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:33,040
And yet, mysteriously,

402
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:34,340
just three weeks

403
00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:35,160
before trial,

404
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:36,420
he was released

405
00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:37,420
into custody

406
00:18:37,420 --> 00:18:38,780
of Harry Armstrong

407
00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:40,880
of the U.S. Army Air Forces,

408
00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:42,500
and he was on his way

409
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:43,680
to the United States.

410
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,260
Part of Dr. Alexander's role

411
00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:48,380
was to find witnesses,

412
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:50,740
to find the few survivors

413
00:18:50,740 --> 00:18:52,280
of those horrific

414
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,460
concentration camp

415
00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:54,480
medical experiments

416
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,040
and put them on trial.

417
00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:58,100
So we had the doctor's trial.

418
00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:59,740
There you see Dr. Bloma

419
00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:00,320
in the center.

420
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:01,500
He would be acquitted

421
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:02,120
and he would later

422
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:03,340
become part of Paperclip.

423
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:04,980
And there you see

424
00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:05,960
Dr. Alexander

425
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:06,760
with a witness

426
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,300
who comes into the story

427
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:08,820
later

428
00:19:08,820 --> 00:19:10,980
at the Nuremberg

429
00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:11,720
doctor's trial.

430
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,940
This is one of the doctors.

431
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:15,180
You know,

432
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,460
someone once asked me,

433
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:17,900
did any of the doctors

434
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:18,720
know each other?

435
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,020
And they absolutely did.

436
00:19:20,140 --> 00:19:21,240
Dr. Alexander,

437
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:22,420
part of the reason

438
00:19:22,420 --> 00:19:23,480
why he was chosen

439
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,280
to be the chief medical expert

440
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,240
for the Nuremberg trials

441
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,080
was that he had grown up

442
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:29,700
in Vienna

443
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:31,080
and he left

444
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,220
when the Nazis took power.

445
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:34,460
So he was a fluent

446
00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:35,280
German speaker

447
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:36,900
and he was astonished

448
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:37,620
to figure out

449
00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:38,840
at the doctor's trial

450
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,340
that he was in the same

451
00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:41,500
medical class

452
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:42,880
with Dr. Beeglebach.

453
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,360
Carl Hollenreiner,

454
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,300
one of the few survivors

455
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,080
of those experiments.

456
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,600
I tell this story

457
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:52,420
in the book

458
00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:53,540
but there's so many moments

459
00:19:53,540 --> 00:19:54,300
that I came across

460
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:55,760
that are just lost to history.

461
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,080
I couldn't believe

462
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:57,840
that they had never,

463
00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,140
I had never heard of them

464
00:19:59,140 --> 00:20:00,320
and they seemed to not have been

465
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:01,560
written about anywhere.

466
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,060
Carl Hollenreiner

467
00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:04,100
was the subject

468
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:05,560
of the saltwater experiments

469
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,300
and I won't give you

470
00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:06,820
the details

471
00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:07,780
because they're gruesome.

472
00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:09,060
You can read some of them

473
00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:09,440
in the book

474
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,040
but Hollenreiner

475
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,440
was so outraged

476
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,260
at Beeglebach

477
00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:13,920
who had performed

478
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:14,960
those experiments on him

479
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,920
he came into the Nuremberg trials

480
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:17,600
with a dagger

481
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:18,640
hidden in his pocket

482
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,040
and while he was

483
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:20,840
on the witness stand

484
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,120
he leapt off the stand

485
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:24,320
and he tried to stab

486
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,060
Beeglebach

487
00:20:25,060 --> 00:20:27,200
and one of the Nuremberg judges

488
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,720
was so upset with him

489
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:29,680
because he said

490
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:30,540
we are here

491
00:20:30,540 --> 00:20:32,260
to show what democracy

492
00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:33,060
is all about

493
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:34,060
that he sent

494
00:20:34,060 --> 00:20:36,160
poor Carl Hollenreiner

495
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,560
back into the prison

496
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,140
with the Nazi doctors

497
00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:44,440
Dr. Walter Schreiber

498
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,320
hold that thought

499
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:47,520
he was absent

500
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,680
from the doctors trial

501
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:49,840
he'd been captured

502
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:50,840
by the Soviets

503
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,840
jumping over to another program

504
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:55,780
briefly and quickly

505
00:20:55,780 --> 00:20:58,420
some of the men

506
00:20:58,420 --> 00:21:00,180
who worked for the U.S. Army

507
00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:01,040
really felt

508
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,040
that this program

509
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:03,600
was terrible

510
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,100
and they didn't want

511
00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:05,800
to be working

512
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:06,500
with Nazi

513
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:08,200
potential war criminals

514
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,380
but there was also

515
00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:10,240
a Soviet threat

516
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:10,860
and they felt

517
00:21:10,860 --> 00:21:11,740
that it was perhaps

518
00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:13,120
the lesser of two evils

519
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:16,080
other army officers

520
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,740
really seemed

521
00:21:17,740 --> 00:21:18,360
to like

522
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,000
these scientists

523
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,120
with full knowledge

524
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:23,000
of how complicit

525
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:23,440
they had been

526
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:24,140
in war crimes

527
00:21:24,140 --> 00:21:25,300
and that was

528
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:26,080
very disturbing

529
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,440
General Luke's

530
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,160
here was one of them

531
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:29,640
there he is

532
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,060
holding an incendiary bomb

533
00:21:31,060 --> 00:21:32,840
and there he is

534
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,200
I found this

535
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:34,660
actually in

536
00:21:34,660 --> 00:21:35,200
General Luke's

537
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,200
personal papers

538
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,280
at the U.S. Army

539
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:38,720
Heritage Institute

540
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:39,880
in upstate Pennsylvania

541
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,640
and I'm going to speak

542
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:41,180
for a second

543
00:21:41,180 --> 00:21:42,960
about reporting the story

544
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:43,560
and how stories

545
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:44,540
like this get reported

546
00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:46,000
there's sort of an idea

547
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,300
that you just file

548
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:48,700
a Freedom of Information Act

549
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:49,400
and magically

550
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:50,760
all these documents appear

551
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:51,820
and that's of course

552
00:21:51,820 --> 00:21:52,540
not the case

553
00:21:52,540 --> 00:21:54,260
I often think of myself

554
00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:55,300
a bit like a detective

555
00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:56,660
and that you have to

556
00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:58,120
really find your way

557
00:21:58,120 --> 00:21:58,800
to the story

558
00:21:58,800 --> 00:21:59,980
but when I saw

559
00:21:59,980 --> 00:22:00,640
this photograph

560
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:01,500
of General Luke

561
00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:02,740
seeming to enjoy himself

562
00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:03,720
at a cocktail party

563
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,520
with Hitler's chemists

564
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,200
I decided to track down

565
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:08,560
General Luke's

566
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,400
personal papers

567
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:10,140
which I found

568
00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:12,060
at the History Institute

569
00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:13,240
and that's where

570
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,140
I found out

571
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:15,400
I'm going to jump forward

572
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,740
I found General Luke's

573
00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:18,340
diaries

574
00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:19,860
and this is that

575
00:22:19,860 --> 00:22:21,480
incredible human element

576
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,020
of it all

577
00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:22,880
where you know

578
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:23,820
I keep a diary

579
00:22:23,820 --> 00:22:25,400
maybe lots of you do

580
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,100
and you sort of write

581
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:27,300
like things maybe

582
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:27,980
you're not supposed

583
00:22:27,980 --> 00:22:28,460
to write

584
00:22:28,460 --> 00:22:31,460
and General Luke's

585
00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:32,540
wrote you know

586
00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:34,140
attended a conference

587
00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:35,980
with Dr. Schieber

588
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:37,620
classified matters

589
00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:38,840
and all along

590
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:39,800
the Department of Defense

591
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:40,500
had been telling me

592
00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:41,100
that Schieber

593
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:42,680
had never been part

594
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:43,440
of Paperclip

595
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:44,860
that's Schieber

596
00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:47,360
he was SS Brigade Fuhrer

597
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:48,220
he served on

598
00:22:48,220 --> 00:22:48,840
Reichsfuhrer

599
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:49,780
SS Himmler's

600
00:22:49,780 --> 00:22:51,260
personal staff

601
00:22:51,260 --> 00:22:52,360
he worked on

602
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:53,480
concentration camps

603
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,400
experiments

604
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,280
he was a chemist

605
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:56,860
there he is

606
00:22:56,860 --> 00:22:57,600
wearing the golden

607
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:58,340
party badge

608
00:22:58,340 --> 00:22:59,160
I told you about

609
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,280
that means he had

610
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:01,440
favor from the Fuhrer

611
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,500
but the reason

612
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:04,660
that Schieber

613
00:23:04,660 --> 00:23:05,860
Schieber was never

614
00:23:05,860 --> 00:23:06,780
known to be part

615
00:23:06,780 --> 00:23:07,320
of Paperclip

616
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:07,860
was because

617
00:23:07,860 --> 00:23:08,780
he was later

618
00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:09,960
hired by the CIA

619
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,180
and they were able

620
00:23:11,180 --> 00:23:11,880
to put a different

621
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:12,820
classification on

622
00:23:12,820 --> 00:23:13,420
his papers

623
00:23:13,420 --> 00:23:15,720
so up until this

624
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:16,920
point Schieber's

625
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:17,760
participation in

626
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:18,200
this program

627
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:18,840
was not known

628
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,280
his courageous

629
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,340
family members

630
00:23:21,340 --> 00:23:22,180
in Germany

631
00:23:22,180 --> 00:23:23,000
also gave me

632
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:23,480
some very

633
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,480
interesting information

634
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:25,620
which I report

635
00:23:25,620 --> 00:23:26,080
in the book

636
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,320
but just to show

637
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,500
you how high up

638
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:29,160
Schieber was

639
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:29,900
and why

640
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:31,440
it was necessary

641
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:32,300
to keep him

642
00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:33,580
a very big secret

643
00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:34,580
there he is

644
00:23:34,580 --> 00:23:35,020
I couldn't

645
00:23:35,020 --> 00:23:35,800
get permission

646
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,100
to publish

647
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:37,680
this photograph

648
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,260
I'm happy

649
00:23:38,260 --> 00:23:38,660
to show it

650
00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:39,040
to you here

651
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:39,580
there he is

652
00:23:39,580 --> 00:23:40,300
shaking hands

653
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:40,760
with Hitler

654
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,760
in the forest

655
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,900
but ultimately

656
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:46,720
I was able

657
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:47,580
through that

658
00:23:47,580 --> 00:23:48,020
sort of

659
00:23:48,020 --> 00:23:48,860
detective work

660
00:23:48,860 --> 00:23:49,700
and finding out

661
00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:51,900
about Dr. Schieber's

662
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:52,600
participation

663
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:53,340
in Paperclip

664
00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:54,420
and I was able

665
00:23:54,420 --> 00:23:55,240
to get that list

666
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:55,900
and there it is

667
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:56,980
that's the official

668
00:23:56,980 --> 00:23:57,980
list of all

669
00:23:57,980 --> 00:23:59,920
the high ranking

670
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:01,060
chemical weapons

671
00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:01,940
experts on

672
00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:02,940
Hitler's

673
00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:03,800
roster

674
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:04,540
who ended up

675
00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:05,320
working as part

676
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:05,960
of Paperclip

677
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,180
and just a

678
00:24:07,180 --> 00:24:08,080
fascinating photograph

679
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:08,740
of Schieber

680
00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:09,540
that his family

681
00:24:09,540 --> 00:24:10,220
shared with me

682
00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:11,080
and that's when

683
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:11,560
he was working

684
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:12,260
for the CIA

685
00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:16,980
so people often

686
00:24:16,980 --> 00:24:17,720
ask how could

687
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:18,500
this have happened

688
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:20,220
and this is why

689
00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:20,840
you know there was

690
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,480
a very real threat

691
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:22,980
and that was

692
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:23,840
the Soviet Union

693
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:24,760
and the threat

694
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,220
was thermonuclear war

695
00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:28,940
very quickly

696
00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:30,020
the Cold War

697
00:24:30,020 --> 00:24:31,460
heated up

698
00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:32,900
and all of

699
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:33,720
those criminals

700
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:34,300
that we had

701
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,060
sent to prison

702
00:24:36,060 --> 00:24:37,040
well

703
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,640
we needed

704
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:39,520
Germany as

705
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,180
an ally

706
00:24:40,180 --> 00:24:41,260
and so

707
00:24:41,260 --> 00:24:42,660
John McCloy

708
00:24:42,660 --> 00:24:43,920
US high commissioner

709
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:44,940
he left his

710
00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:45,520
position as

711
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:46,180
president of the

712
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:46,760
World Bank

713
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,760
and agreed to

714
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:48,320
go to Germany

715
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:48,900
to serve as

716
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:49,480
high commissioner

717
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,360
and he released

718
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:52,020
the majority

719
00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:52,760
of those

720
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,180
convicted

721
00:24:53,180 --> 00:24:54,100
Nazi war criminals

722
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:55,440
they had been

723
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,160
in Landsberg

724
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:56,720
prison

725
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,640
those are the

726
00:24:58,640 --> 00:24:59,800
unmarked

727
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:00,220
graves

728
00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:01,860
of the

729
00:25:01,860 --> 00:25:03,160
486

730
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:03,680
who had

731
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:04,260
been hung

732
00:25:04,260 --> 00:25:05,900
but he

733
00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:06,940
released a lot

734
00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:07,180
of them

735
00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:07,780
including

736
00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:08,600
Ambrose

737
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,100
I found this

738
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:10,620
picture to be

739
00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:11,640
incredibly disturbing

740
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:12,640
that's Ambrose

741
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,200
I told you

742
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,060
the A for

743
00:25:14,060 --> 00:25:14,500
Ambrose

744
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:15,560
in sarin gas

745
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:16,300
Hitler's

746
00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:16,640
favorite

747
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:17,640
chemist

748
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,840
he was running

749
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:19,720
the managing

750
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:20,580
the Auschwitz

751
00:25:20,580 --> 00:25:20,960
three

752
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:21,760
Buna factory

753
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,620
he was actually

754
00:25:23,620 --> 00:25:24,640
tried at

755
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:25,360
Nuremberg

756
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:26,640
he was convicted

757
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:27,960
of mass murder

758
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,040
and slavery

759
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:29,980
there he is

760
00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:30,800
in a Nuremberg

761
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:31,620
photograph

762
00:25:31,620 --> 00:25:33,160
laughing with

763
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:33,920
his lawyers

764
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:34,900
perhaps he had

765
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:35,560
foresight

766
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,540
and knew

767
00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:37,420
that he would

768
00:25:37,420 --> 00:25:37,820
be given

769
00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:38,520
clemency

770
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:39,520
by US

771
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,140
high commissioner

772
00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:41,040
John McCloy

773
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:41,920
released

774
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:42,440
and he would

775
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:42,860
become

776
00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:43,560
later

777
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,720
on contract

778
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,280
with the US

779
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:45,820
Department of

780
00:25:45,820 --> 00:25:46,160
Energy

781
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,660
some of the

782
00:25:48,660 --> 00:25:49,320
doctors were

783
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,020
such hot

784
00:25:50,020 --> 00:25:50,480
potatoes

785
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:51,040
that was the

786
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:51,380
actual

787
00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:52,200
term that

788
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:52,780
they used

789
00:25:52,780 --> 00:25:53,620
if someone

790
00:25:53,620 --> 00:25:54,560
couldn't come

791
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,180
to the United

792
00:25:55,180 --> 00:25:55,680
States

793
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:56,640
and so they

794
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:57,100
were sent

795
00:25:57,100 --> 00:25:57,600
to this

796
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:58,120
facility

797
00:25:58,120 --> 00:25:58,920
outside

798
00:25:58,920 --> 00:25:59,440
Frankfurt

799
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,040
it was a

800
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:00,660
black site

801
00:26:00,660 --> 00:26:01,380
I sort of

802
00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:01,700
think of it

803
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:02,020
as the

804
00:26:02,020 --> 00:26:02,720
original

805
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:03,360
post-war

806
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:04,020
black site

807
00:26:04,020 --> 00:26:06,160
and that

808
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:06,700
is where

809
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:07,620
we worked

810
00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:08,440
on enhanced

811
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,280
interrogation

812
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:09,960
techniques

813
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,100
with Soviet

814
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:11,840
bloc prisoners

815
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:12,640
ultimately this

816
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:13,160
program would

817
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:13,760
become known

818
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:14,440
as the

819
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:14,940
infamous

820
00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:15,460
MK

821
00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:15,860
Ultra

822
00:26:15,860 --> 00:26:16,320
program

823
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:16,940
but it

824
00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:17,580
began here

825
00:26:17,580 --> 00:26:18,240
much earlier

826
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:18,840
than thought

827
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,080
and lo and

828
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:20,760
behold who

829
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:21,020
were the

830
00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:21,360
two

831
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:22,040
physicians

832
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:22,800
at Camp

833
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:23,140
King

834
00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:24,100
Dr.

835
00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:24,580
Schreiber

836
00:26:24,580 --> 00:26:25,980
released

837
00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:26,460
from the

838
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:26,820
Russians

839
00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:27,480
many thought

840
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:27,860
he was a

841
00:26:27,860 --> 00:26:28,580
Soviet mole

842
00:26:28,580 --> 00:26:30,340
and Dr.

843
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:31,080
Kurt Blomma

844
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,300
but the

845
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:32,800
reason that

846
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:33,320
Blomma got

847
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:33,840
the position

848
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:34,560
was because

849
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:35,260
Schreiber

850
00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:36,460
came to

851
00:26:36,460 --> 00:26:36,900
the United

852
00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:37,400
States

853
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:37,840
and this

854
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:38,180
was one

855
00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:38,420
of the

856
00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:38,760
most

857
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,100
horrifying

858
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:40,780
moments

859
00:26:40,780 --> 00:26:41,900
to research

860
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:42,540
and report

861
00:26:42,540 --> 00:26:43,040
was that

862
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:43,800
Dr.

863
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:44,160
Schreiber

864
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:44,400
whose

865
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:44,880
specialty

866
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:45,680
was actually

867
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,460
lethal

868
00:26:46,460 --> 00:26:47,100
phenol

869
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:47,700
injections

870
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:48,800
was a

871
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:49,200
quick way

872
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:49,500
to get

873
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:49,780
rid of

874
00:26:49,780 --> 00:26:50,000
someone

875
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:50,260
at a

876
00:26:50,260 --> 00:26:50,620
concentration

877
00:26:50,620 --> 00:26:51,200
camp

878
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:52,140
he oversaw

879
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:52,400
those

880
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:52,920
experiments

881
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:53,980
we knew

882
00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:54,220
it

883
00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:54,760
we couldn't

884
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:55,460
prosecute him

885
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:56,080
at Nuremberg

886
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:56,580
because he

887
00:26:56,580 --> 00:26:58,020
was in the

888
00:26:58,020 --> 00:26:58,680
Soviet Union

889
00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:59,000
and he

890
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:59,900
actually was

891
00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:00,420
a witness

892
00:27:00,420 --> 00:27:01,240
for the

893
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:01,760
Soviet Union

894
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:02,040
at the

895
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:02,460
Nuremberg

896
00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:02,860
trials

897
00:27:02,860 --> 00:27:03,880
but now

898
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:04,400
he was on

899
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:04,920
the American

900
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:05,440
team

901
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:06,540
and he

902
00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:07,020
was sent

903
00:27:07,020 --> 00:27:07,660
to America

904
00:27:07,660 --> 00:27:08,860
to this

905
00:27:08,860 --> 00:27:09,340
place

906
00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:10,580
the U.S.

907
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,020
Air Force

908
00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:11,460
School of

909
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:11,960
Aviation

910
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:12,320
Medicine

911
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,120
at Randall

912
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:13,580
Field

913
00:27:13,580 --> 00:27:14,880
Harry Armstrong

914
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,640
whose photograph

915
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,220
I showed

916
00:27:16,220 --> 00:27:17,000
you he

917
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:17,500
had set

918
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,100
this place

919
00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:18,420
up

920
00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:19,200
this would

921
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:19,600
become

922
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,320
the bastion

923
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:21,560
of U.S.

924
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:22,460
aerospace

925
00:27:22,460 --> 00:27:23,120
medicine

926
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:23,660
ultimately

927
00:27:23,660 --> 00:27:26,260
and when

928
00:27:26,260 --> 00:27:26,700
Dr.

929
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:27,220
Schreiber

930
00:27:27,220 --> 00:27:27,820
the former

931
00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:28,700
Surgeon General

932
00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:29,080
of the

933
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:29,660
Third Reich

934
00:27:29,660 --> 00:27:30,820
arrived in

935
00:27:30,820 --> 00:27:31,340
the United

936
00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:31,840
States

937
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:32,740
and here's

938
00:27:32,740 --> 00:27:33,040
where

939
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,380
circumstance

940
00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:35,260
plays into

941
00:27:35,260 --> 00:27:35,760
the story

942
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:36,260
I really

943
00:27:36,260 --> 00:27:37,060
love when

944
00:27:37,060 --> 00:27:37,640
fate and

945
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:38,160
circumstance

946
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:39,640
work in

947
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:40,440
a very

948
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:40,880
interesting

949
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:41,860
way that

950
00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:42,300
perhaps

951
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:42,920
justice

952
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:43,420
cannot

953
00:27:43,420 --> 00:27:44,760
Schreiber

954
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,120
there's

955
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:46,480
a small

956
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:46,880
article

957
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:47,400
in an

958
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,100
Air Force

959
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:48,540
medical

960
00:27:48,540 --> 00:27:48,900
journal

961
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:49,380
about him

962
00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:49,540
and it

963
00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:49,700
just

964
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:50,180
describes

965
00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:50,340
him

966
00:27:50,340 --> 00:27:50,660
as an

967
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:51,800
ex-Soviet

968
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,280
prisoner

969
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,120
this is

970
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:53,640
the former

971
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:54,420
Surgeon General

972
00:27:54,420 --> 00:27:54,760
of the

973
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:55,320
Third Reich

974
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,580
that's what

975
00:27:56,580 --> 00:27:56,940
it says

976
00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:57,560
about him

977
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:57,840
a little

978
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:58,380
hubris

979
00:27:58,380 --> 00:27:58,660
that he

980
00:27:58,660 --> 00:27:59,060
had agreed

981
00:27:59,060 --> 00:27:59,340
to

982
00:27:59,340 --> 00:28:00,060
or wanted

983
00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:00,420
to have

984
00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:00,840
this article

985
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:01,000
there

986
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:01,700
and who

987
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:02,180
happened

988
00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:02,780
to read

989
00:28:02,780 --> 00:28:03,880
that journal

990
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:04,640
at that

991
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,480
exact time

992
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,000
that moment

993
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:06,460
in time

994
00:28:06,460 --> 00:28:07,980
in 1951

995
00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:08,780
but Dr.

996
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:09,260
Leopold

997
00:28:09,260 --> 00:28:09,860
Alexander

998
00:28:09,860 --> 00:28:10,900
the chief

999
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:12,360
war crimes

1000
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:13,040
prosecutor

1001
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:13,780
from the

1002
00:28:13,780 --> 00:28:14,240
doctor's

1003
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:14,500
trial

1004
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:15,080
and he

1005
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:15,280
was

1006
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:16,060
outraged

1007
00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:16,820
and he

1008
00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:17,400
called up

1009
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:18,420
Harry Armstrong

1010
00:28:18,420 --> 00:28:19,020
who is

1011
00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:20,040
now the

1012
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:20,720
Surgeon General

1013
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:21,020
of the

1014
00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:21,340
U.S.

1015
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:21,820
Air Force

1016
00:28:21,820 --> 00:28:22,280
and says

1017
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:22,920
this man

1018
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,220
is a

1019
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:23,740
Nazi war

1020
00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:24,060
criminal

1021
00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:25,060
and there

1022
00:28:25,060 --> 00:28:25,740
must be

1023
00:28:25,740 --> 00:28:26,600
some mistake

1024
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:27,580
but there

1025
00:28:27,580 --> 00:28:27,920
is no

1026
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:28,480
mistake

1027
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:29,260
Schreiber

1028
00:28:29,260 --> 00:28:30,040
is working

1029
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:30,360
among

1030
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,400
these guys

1031
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,200
34 of

1032
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:32,440
whom

1033
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:33,280
are at

1034
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:33,720
Randall

1035
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,120
Field

1036
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:34,840
working

1037
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:35,600
on U.S.

1038
00:28:36,260 --> 00:28:36,820
space

1039
00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:37,200
medicine

1040
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:37,740
and they

1041
00:28:37,740 --> 00:28:39,000
don't want

1042
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:39,820
to have

1043
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:40,180
to call

1044
00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:40,540
attention

1045
00:28:40,540 --> 00:28:40,940
to this

1046
00:28:40,940 --> 00:28:41,280
and they

1047
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:41,720
do not

1048
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:42,560
want to

1049
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:42,860
have to

1050
00:28:42,860 --> 00:28:43,300
let go

1051
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:43,820
of Dr.

1052
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:44,240
Schreiber

1053
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,220
and so

1054
00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:45,600
there's

1055
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,620
a dramatic

1056
00:28:46,620 --> 00:28:47,420
tug of war

1057
00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:48,100
behind the

1058
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:48,580
scenes

1059
00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:50,100
Dr.

1060
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:50,700
Alexander

1061
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:51,400
decides to

1062
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:51,880
go to

1063
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:52,900
the press

1064
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:53,780
he calls

1065
00:28:53,780 --> 00:28:54,020
up a

1066
00:28:54,020 --> 00:28:54,320
reporter

1067
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:54,720
from the

1068
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:55,500
Boston Globe

1069
00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:56,700
and says

1070
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:57,500
that Schreiber

1071
00:28:57,500 --> 00:28:57,840
is in the

1072
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:58,260
country

1073
00:28:58,260 --> 00:28:59,560
but also

1074
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:00,040
as fate

1075
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:00,580
and circumstance

1076
00:29:00,580 --> 00:29:01,160
would have

1077
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,560
it at this

1078
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,780
exact time

1079
00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:04,180
I showed

1080
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:04,480
you this

1081
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:04,840
photograph

1082
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:05,340
earlier

1083
00:29:05,340 --> 00:29:05,840
this is a

1084
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,100
witness

1085
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:06,560
from the

1086
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:07,080
Ravensbrook

1087
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:07,720
concentration

1088
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:08,140
camp

1089
00:29:08,140 --> 00:29:08,780
who was

1090
00:29:08,780 --> 00:29:09,040
part of

1091
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:09,420
the medical

1092
00:29:09,420 --> 00:29:10,020
experiments

1093
00:29:10,020 --> 00:29:10,620
that Schreiber

1094
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:11,120
was part

1095
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:11,320
of

1096
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:12,560
she just

1097
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:13,700
so happened

1098
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:15,160
to be coming

1099
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:15,500
to the

1100
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:16,340
United States

1101
00:29:16,340 --> 00:29:16,760
at this

1102
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:17,160
time

1103
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:17,820
Dr.

1104
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:18,300
Alexander

1105
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:18,800
and a

1106
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:19,140
colleague

1107
00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:19,760
in Boston

1108
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:20,700
are giving

1109
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:21,540
pro bono

1110
00:29:21,540 --> 00:29:21,960
medical

1111
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:22,440
treatment

1112
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:23,420
to anyone

1113
00:29:23,420 --> 00:29:23,820
who was

1114
00:29:23,820 --> 00:29:24,220
a victim

1115
00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:24,580
and a

1116
00:29:24,580 --> 00:29:25,000
survivor

1117
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,000
of the

1118
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:26,340
Nazi

1119
00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:26,880
concentration

1120
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:27,260
camp

1121
00:29:27,260 --> 00:29:27,620
medical

1122
00:29:27,620 --> 00:29:28,160
experiments

1123
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:28,840
she's

1124
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:29,440
in the

1125
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:29,880
United

1126
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:30,400
States

1127
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:31,400
at

1128
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,080
this

1129
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:32,500
exact

1130
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:33,120
time

1131
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,020
just to

1132
00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:34,320
give you

1133
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:34,860
an idea

1134
00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:35,800
that's

1135
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:36,040
what her

1136
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:36,260
leg

1137
00:29:36,260 --> 00:29:36,500
looked

1138
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:36,860
like

1139
00:29:36,860 --> 00:29:37,240
from

1140
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:37,440
some

1141
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:37,500
of

1142
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:37,580
the

1143
00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:38,220
experiments

1144
00:29:38,220 --> 00:29:39,920
Dr.

1145
00:29:40,020 --> 00:29:40,600
Alexander

1146
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,040
and

1147
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,160
Alexander

1148
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:43,540
Hardy

1149
00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:43,840
who was

1150
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:44,200
assistant

1151
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:44,820
prosecutor

1152
00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:45,700
together

1153
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:46,520
wrote

1154
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:46,820
to

1155
00:29:46,820 --> 00:29:47,220
President

1156
00:29:47,220 --> 00:29:47,640
Truman

1157
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:48,460
and said

1158
00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:49,360
Dr.

1159
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:49,860
Schreiber

1160
00:29:49,860 --> 00:29:50,540
must be

1161
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:50,980
expelled

1162
00:29:50,980 --> 00:29:52,460
and a

1163
00:29:52,460 --> 00:29:53,040
little bit

1164
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:53,520
of justice

1165
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:54,560
this was

1166
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,100
the article

1167
00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:55,380
in the

1168
00:29:55,380 --> 00:29:55,720
New York

1169
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:56,220
Times

1170
00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:57,120
as he

1171
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:57,540
left

1172
00:29:57,540 --> 00:29:57,880
for

1173
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:58,660
Argentina

1174
00:29:58,660 --> 00:29:59,740
and it

1175
00:29:59,740 --> 00:30:00,060
says

1176
00:30:00,060 --> 00:30:00,740
Nazi

1177
00:30:00,740 --> 00:30:01,540
physician

1178
00:30:01,540 --> 00:30:02,220
leaving

1179
00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:05,620
so in

1180
00:30:05,620 --> 00:30:06,240
the end

1181
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:07,740
paperclip

1182
00:30:07,740 --> 00:30:08,720
those

1183
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:09,480
1600

1184
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:10,420
scientists

1185
00:30:10,420 --> 00:30:11,260
had

1186
00:30:11,260 --> 00:30:11,620
different

1187
00:30:11,620 --> 00:30:12,320
trajectories

1188
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:12,640
in their

1189
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:12,940
life

1190
00:30:12,940 --> 00:30:13,360
I write

1191
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:13,580
about

1192
00:30:13,580 --> 00:30:13,980
what their

1193
00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:14,680
lives

1194
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:15,120
were like

1195
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:15,420
in my

1196
00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:15,720
book

1197
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:16,420
but of

1198
00:30:16,420 --> 00:30:16,560
course

1199
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:16,920
the most

1200
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:17,240
famous

1201
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:17,560
among

1202
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:17,820
them

1203
00:30:17,820 --> 00:30:18,400
was

1204
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:18,660
Warner

1205
00:30:18,660 --> 00:30:18,920
Von

1206
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:19,260
Brown

1207
00:30:19,260 --> 00:30:20,680
and

1208
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,080
Arthur

1209
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:22,500
Rudolph

1210
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:23,000
who had

1211
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:23,380
been in

1212
00:30:23,380 --> 00:30:23,720
charge

1213
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:24,280
of the

1214
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,280
underground

1215
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:26,340
weapons

1216
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:26,880
facility

1217
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:27,120
at

1218
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:27,900
Nordhausen

1219
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:28,600
where

1220
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:29,680
30,000

1221
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:30,640
slave

1222
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,240
laborers

1223
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:31,620
died

1224
00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:31,960
building

1225
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,520
the V2

1226
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:33,060
rockets

1227
00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:33,820
he was

1228
00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:34,060
one of

1229
00:30:34,060 --> 00:30:34,700
the few

1230
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:35,240
German

1231
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:35,820
scientists

1232
00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:36,840
who was

1233
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:37,420
investigated

1234
00:30:37,420 --> 00:30:37,860
by the

1235
00:30:37,860 --> 00:30:38,220
Department

1236
00:30:38,220 --> 00:30:38,740
of Justice

1237
00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:39,920
not until

1238
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:40,680
1983

1239
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:41,800
but investigated

1240
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:42,240
nonetheless

1241
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:43,620
and

1242
00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:44,200
Rudolph

1243
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:44,800
was given

1244
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:45,840
a choice

1245
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:46,580
he could

1246
00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:47,240
stand

1247
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,400
stay here

1248
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:49,160
and stand

1249
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:49,840
trial for

1250
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:50,520
war crimes

1251
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:51,420
or he could

1252
00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:51,800
go back

1253
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:52,300
to Germany

1254
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:53,100
and he chose

1255
00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:53,440
to go

1256
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:54,080
to Germany

1257
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,760
Kurt

1258
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:57,180
Davis

1259
00:30:57,180 --> 00:30:58,460
the first

1260
00:30:58,460 --> 00:30:59,020
director

1261
00:30:59,020 --> 00:30:59,460
of the

1262
00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:00,100
JFK

1263
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:00,500
Space

1264
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:00,940
Center

1265
00:31:00,940 --> 00:31:02,780
toward

1266
00:31:02,780 --> 00:31:03,080
the end

1267
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:03,380
of my

1268
00:31:03,380 --> 00:31:03,920
research

1269
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:04,560
I was

1270
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:05,340
learning

1271
00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:05,680
about

1272
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:06,280
Debus

1273
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,480
he wore

1274
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:07,660
the

1275
00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:08,000
SS

1276
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:08,400
uniform

1277
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,120
to work

1278
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,520
he also

1279
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,720
in documents

1280
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:12,220
that I

1281
00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:13,300
read

1282
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:13,600
through

1283
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:14,120
thoroughly

1284
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,580
turned

1285
00:31:15,580 --> 00:31:16,120
over a

1286
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:16,680
colleague

1287
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:17,540
to the

1288
00:31:17,540 --> 00:31:18,080
Gestapo

1289
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,320
who had

1290
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:19,820
for making

1291
00:31:19,820 --> 00:31:20,800
anti-Hitler

1292
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:21,320
remarks

1293
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:21,920
and there's

1294
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:22,140
this

1295
00:31:22,140 --> 00:31:22,940
incredible

1296
00:31:22,940 --> 00:31:23,420
moment

1297
00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:23,900
in that

1298
00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:24,200
in the

1299
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:24,420
early

1300
00:31:24,420 --> 00:31:24,760
part of

1301
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:25,200
paperclip

1302
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:25,480
where

1303
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:26,640
one group

1304
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:26,900
of

1305
00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:27,520
American

1306
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:28,120
intelligence

1307
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:28,580
officers

1308
00:31:28,580 --> 00:31:29,080
who are

1309
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,040
recruiting

1310
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:30,340
for

1311
00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:31,000
paperclip

1312
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,240
find

1313
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:32,760
Davis'

1314
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:33,860
information

1315
00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:34,280
out

1316
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,020
and they

1317
00:31:35,020 --> 00:31:35,400
notify

1318
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:35,780
the

1319
00:31:35,780 --> 00:31:36,060
joint

1320
00:31:36,060 --> 00:31:36,840
chiefs

1321
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:37,600
and the

1322
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:37,960
group

1323
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:38,300
working

1324
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:38,540
at the

1325
00:31:38,540 --> 00:31:38,860
Pentagon

1326
00:31:38,860 --> 00:31:39,740
to get

1327
00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:39,900
the

1328
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:40,620
different

1329
00:31:40,620 --> 00:31:41,080
individual

1330
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:41,500
scientists

1331
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:41,800
here

1332
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:42,040
and they

1333
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:42,260
say

1334
00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:42,920
Davis

1335
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:43,500
cannot

1336
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:44,080
be brought

1337
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:44,340
to the

1338
00:31:44,340 --> 00:31:44,620
United

1339
00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:45,080
States

1340
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,020
he

1341
00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:46,620
deliberately

1342
00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:47,200
and

1343
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,080
viciously

1344
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:48,500
turned

1345
00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:48,920
over a

1346
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:49,240
colleague

1347
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:49,520
to the

1348
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:49,960
Gestapo

1349
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:50,740
who went

1350
00:31:50,740 --> 00:31:51,220
to prison

1351
00:31:51,220 --> 00:31:52,300
but the

1352
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:53,020
joint chiefs

1353
00:31:53,020 --> 00:31:53,480
say we

1354
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:54,100
need him

1355
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:54,700
and he

1356
00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:55,200
comes

1357
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:56,160
to this

1358
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:56,460
day

1359
00:31:56,460 --> 00:31:56,660
the

1360
00:31:56,660 --> 00:31:56,980
National

1361
00:31:56,980 --> 00:31:57,340
Space

1362
00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:57,580
Club

1363
00:31:57,580 --> 00:31:57,880
gives

1364
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:58,160
out

1365
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:58,380
the

1366
00:31:58,380 --> 00:31:58,800
Dr.

1367
00:31:58,960 --> 00:31:59,280
Kurt

1368
00:31:59,280 --> 00:31:59,900
Davis

1369
00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:01,060
award

1370
00:32:01,060 --> 00:32:02,300
and

1371
00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:03,240
there

1372
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:03,440
he

1373
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:03,860
is

1374
00:32:03,860 --> 00:32:06,900
when I

1375
00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:07,420
asked

1376
00:32:07,420 --> 00:32:07,660
the

1377
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:08,040
director

1378
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:08,540
of that

1379
00:32:08,540 --> 00:32:08,980
award

1380
00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:10,040
what

1381
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:10,680
he

1382
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:11,320
says

1383
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:11,740
when a

1384
00:32:11,740 --> 00:32:12,000
journalist

1385
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:12,720
asks him

1386
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,220
why do

1387
00:32:13,220 --> 00:32:13,380
you

1388
00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:13,840
continue

1389
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:14,320
to give

1390
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:14,600
out

1391
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,260
an

1392
00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:15,720
award

1393
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,000
to

1394
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:17,240
a

1395
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,200
known

1396
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:18,700
Nazi

1397
00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:19,360
he

1398
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:19,600
said

1399
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:19,760
that

1400
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:19,940
no

1401
00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:20,140
one

1402
00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:20,380
had

1403
00:32:20,380 --> 00:32:20,680
ever

1404
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:21,080
asked

1405
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:21,220
him

1406
00:32:21,220 --> 00:32:21,380
that

1407
00:32:21,380 --> 00:32:21,780
question

1408
00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:22,220
before

1409
00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:24,760
I

1410
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:25,040
think

1411
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:25,580
ultimately

1412
00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:26,100
Einstein

1413
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:26,620
had

1414
00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:26,780
it

1415
00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:27,140
right

1416
00:32:27,140 --> 00:32:28,960
Einstein

1417
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:29,720
left

1418
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,000
Germany

1419
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,020
as soon

1420
00:32:32,020 --> 00:32:32,600
as the

1421
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:32,860
Nazis

1422
00:32:32,860 --> 00:32:33,160
took

1423
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:33,680
power

1424
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,800
and his

1425
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:35,260
quote

1426
00:32:35,260 --> 00:32:35,860
was that

1427
00:32:35,860 --> 00:32:36,260
the reason

1428
00:32:36,260 --> 00:32:36,520
he had

1429
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:36,780
left

1430
00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:37,320
was because

1431
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:38,220
science

1432
00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:39,000
and justice

1433
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:39,660
were now

1434
00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:40,380
in the

1435
00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:40,800
hands

1436
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:41,220
of a

1437
00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:41,540
raw

1438
00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:41,840
and

1439
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:42,420
rabid

1440
00:32:42,420 --> 00:32:42,920
mob

1441
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:43,500
of

1442
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:43,840
Nazi

1443
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:44,320
militia

1444
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,360
there

1445
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:45,740
he is

1446
00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:46,040
getting

1447
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:46,520
his

1448
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,480
US

1449
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:48,200
citizenship

1450
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,080
the

1451
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:49,540
majority

1452
00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:49,860
of

1453
00:32:49,860 --> 00:32:50,040
the

1454
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:50,820
1600

1455
00:32:50,820 --> 00:32:52,600
operation

1456
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:53,060
paperclip

1457
00:32:53,060 --> 00:32:53,500
scientists

1458
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:54,000
who came

1459
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:54,260
here

1460
00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:54,740
were

1461
00:32:54,740 --> 00:32:55,020
given

1462
00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:55,320
that

1463
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:56,180
coveted

1464
00:32:56,180 --> 00:32:56,640
US

1465
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:57,180
citizenship

1466
00:32:57,180 --> 00:33:00,200
so I

1467
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:00,580
leave you

1468
00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:00,940
with the

1469
00:33:00,940 --> 00:33:01,300
last

1470
00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:01,740
thought

1471
00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:02,740
which is

1472
00:33:02,740 --> 00:33:03,440
Yadem

1473
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:03,900
Das

1474
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:04,380
Zaina

1475
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:05,480
that sign

1476
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:05,900
over the

1477
00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:06,360
Buchenwald

1478
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:06,760
gate

1479
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,020
we know

1480
00:33:08,020 --> 00:33:08,340
from a

1481
00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:08,700
document

1482
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:08,980
that

1483
00:33:08,980 --> 00:33:09,460
Wernher von

1484
00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:09,700
Brown

1485
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:10,240
himself

1486
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,000
would

1487
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:11,360
go

1488
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,140
to the

1489
00:33:12,140 --> 00:33:12,600
Buchenwald

1490
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:13,080
camp

1491
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:13,480
and

1492
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:14,440
handpick

1493
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:14,760
slave

1494
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,500
laborers

1495
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:16,920
to work

1496
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:17,160
on the

1497
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:17,600
rockets

1498
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,040
so is

1499
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:19,520
that really

1500
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:19,940
true

1501
00:33:19,940 --> 00:33:20,260
does

1502
00:33:20,260 --> 00:33:20,620
everyone

1503
00:33:20,620 --> 00:33:20,940
get

1504
00:33:20,940 --> 00:33:21,120
what

1505
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:21,260
he

1506
00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:21,740
deserves

1507
00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:22,700
I

1508
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:23,060
sought

1509
00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:23,320
out

1510
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:23,560
that

1511
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:24,240
question

1512
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:25,000
I

1513
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:25,360
sought

1514
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:25,560
out

1515
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:25,740
that

1516
00:33:25,740 --> 00:33:26,140
answer

1517
00:33:26,140 --> 00:33:26,400
from

1518
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:26,660
all

1519
00:33:26,660 --> 00:33:26,800
the

1520
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:27,140
different

1521
00:33:27,140 --> 00:33:27,760
individuals

1522
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,360
that I

1523
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:28,960
interviewed

1524
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:29,860
but the

1525
00:33:29,860 --> 00:33:30,180
best

1526
00:33:30,180 --> 00:33:30,580
answer

1527
00:33:30,580 --> 00:33:30,920
that I

1528
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,240
got

1529
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:31,620
came

1530
00:33:31,620 --> 00:33:32,080
from

1531
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:32,680
now

1532
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:33,340
91

1533
00:33:33,340 --> 00:33:33,720
year

1534
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:34,000
old

1535
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:34,680
Gerhard

1536
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:35,300
Maschowski

1537
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:36,360
and

1538
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:36,880
as a

1539
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:37,320
teenager

1540
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:38,120
he was

1541
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:38,440
spared

1542
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:38,660
the

1543
00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:38,980
gas

1544
00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:39,380
chamber

1545
00:33:39,380 --> 00:33:39,600
at

1546
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:40,180
Auschwitz

1547
00:33:40,180 --> 00:33:40,900
because

1548
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:41,100
he

1549
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:41,240
could

1550
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:41,660
work

1551
00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:42,460
he

1552
00:33:42,460 --> 00:33:43,080
became

1553
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:43,320
a

1554
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:43,620
slave

1555
00:33:43,620 --> 00:33:44,160
laborer

1556
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:44,360
at

1557
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:44,720
Buna

1558
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:45,120
at

1559
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:45,300
that

1560
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:45,720
factory

1561
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:45,940
that

1562
00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:46,240
Otto

1563
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:46,760
Ambrose

1564
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:47,140
ran

1565
00:33:47,140 --> 00:33:48,840
and I

1566
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:49,180
said

1567
00:33:49,180 --> 00:33:49,760
Gerhard

1568
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:50,220
you know

1569
00:33:50,220 --> 00:33:51,020
is it

1570
00:33:51,020 --> 00:33:51,380
true

1571
00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:52,080
and what

1572
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:52,920
lasts

1573
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,160
and he

1574
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:54,700
smiled

1575
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:55,640
and he

1576
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:56,520
pulled back

1577
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,460
the sleeve

1578
00:33:57,460 --> 00:33:58,400
of his

1579
00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:58,780
arm

1580
00:33:58,780 --> 00:34:00,240
and he

1581
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,440
showed me

1582
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:02,080
that blue

1583
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:02,460
ink

1584
00:34:02,460 --> 00:34:03,060
Auschwitz

1585
00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:03,460
tattoo

1586
00:34:03,460 --> 00:34:04,860
and he

1587
00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:05,320
said

1588
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,800
this is

1589
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:07,020
what

1590
00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:07,600
matters

1591
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,460
this

1592
00:34:08,460 --> 00:34:09,020
lasts

1593
00:34:09,020 --> 00:34:09,520
and it's

1594
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:09,900
a record

1595
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:10,240
of the

1596
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:10,600
truth

1597
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,760
I

1598
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:12,900
want

1599
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:13,000
to

1600
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:13,180
thank

1601
00:34:13,180 --> 00:34:13,300
you

1602
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:13,460
all

1603
00:34:13,460 --> 00:34:13,580
for

1604
00:34:13,580 --> 00:34:13,820
coming

1605
00:34:13,820 --> 00:34:14,100
tonight

1606
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:14,300
and I

1607
00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:14,560
welcome

1608
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:14,740
your

1609
00:34:14,740 --> 00:34:15,240
questions

1610
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:23,020
so I'm

1611
00:34:23,020 --> 00:34:23,300
sure there

1612
00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:23,540
are many

1613
00:34:23,540 --> 00:34:23,900
questions

1614
00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:24,240
just make

1615
00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:24,520
your way

1616
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:24,800
to one

1617
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:24,940
of the

1618
00:34:24,940 --> 00:34:25,320
microphones

1619
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:36,060
well thank

1620
00:34:36,060 --> 00:34:36,580
you very

1621
00:34:36,580 --> 00:34:36,900
much

1622
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:37,580
I have

1623
00:34:37,580 --> 00:34:37,760
two

1624
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:38,300
questions

1625
00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:39,560
I've

1626
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:39,780
also

1627
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:40,120
done a

1628
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:40,360
lot of

1629
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:40,520
this

1630
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:40,840
type

1631
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:41,000
of

1632
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:41,400
research

1633
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:41,600
and

1634
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:42,040
archives

1635
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:42,800
in your

1636
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:43,240
research

1637
00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:43,600
did you

1638
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:43,800
come

1639
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:44,180
across

1640
00:34:44,180 --> 00:34:44,480
any

1641
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:44,980
evidence

1642
00:34:44,980 --> 00:34:45,760
that

1643
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:46,340
documents

1644
00:34:46,340 --> 00:34:46,600
had

1645
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:46,940
been

1646
00:34:46,940 --> 00:34:47,880
destroyed

1647
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:48,800
or

1648
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:49,280
were you

1649
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:49,640
denied

1650
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,320
documents

1651
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,060
and my

1652
00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:51,320
second

1653
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:51,740
question

1654
00:34:51,740 --> 00:34:52,100
is

1655
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:52,940
what

1656
00:34:52,940 --> 00:34:53,100
does

1657
00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:53,280
this

1658
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:53,460
say

1659
00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:53,740
about

1660
00:34:53,740 --> 00:34:54,240
allied

1661
00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:55,280
denazification

1662
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,000
efforts

1663
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,100
so the

1664
00:34:58,100 --> 00:34:58,500
first part

1665
00:34:58,500 --> 00:34:58,660
of the

1666
00:34:58,660 --> 00:34:58,960
question

1667
00:34:58,960 --> 00:34:59,740
I mean

1668
00:34:59,740 --> 00:35:00,700
lost

1669
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:01,220
or missing

1670
00:35:01,220 --> 00:35:01,860
is kind

1671
00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:02,120
of a

1672
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:02,700
euphemism

1673
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:03,060
for

1674
00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:03,520
something

1675
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:03,920
which I

1676
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,140
haven't

1677
00:35:04,140 --> 00:35:04,420
quite

1678
00:35:04,420 --> 00:35:04,720
figured

1679
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:05,040
out

1680
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:05,280
but

1681
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:05,800
Otto

1682
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:06,300
Ambrose

1683
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:06,580
would be

1684
00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:06,940
the best

1685
00:35:06,940 --> 00:35:07,220
case

1686
00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:07,380
in

1687
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:07,720
point

1688
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:09,200
Otto

1689
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:09,600
Ambrose

1690
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:09,900
who got

1691
00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:10,060
that

1692
00:35:10,060 --> 00:35:10,400
Department

1693
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:10,840
of Energy

1694
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,300
contract

1695
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:11,680
and I

1696
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:12,000
think I

1697
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:12,660
neglected to

1698
00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:13,040
mention

1699
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,080
the worst

1700
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:14,600
part of the

1701
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:15,300
story was that

1702
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:16,120
when Otto

1703
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:16,740
Ambrose was

1704
00:35:16,740 --> 00:35:17,600
given clemency

1705
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:18,220
by U.S.

1706
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:18,760
High Commissioner

1707
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:19,520
John McCloy

1708
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:20,880
his finances

1709
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:21,520
were fully

1710
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,020
restored

1711
00:35:22,020 --> 00:35:22,800
so that

1712
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:23,680
one million

1713
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:24,720
Reichsmarks

1714
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:25,420
bonus came

1715
00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:26,080
back to him

1716
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,360
and I wanted

1717
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:28,060
to know

1718
00:35:28,060 --> 00:35:29,220
how it was

1719
00:35:29,220 --> 00:35:29,700
that Otto

1720
00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:30,360
Ambrose came

1721
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:30,880
to the United

1722
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:31,400
States

1723
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:32,320
because he

1724
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:32,580
was a

1725
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:32,920
convicted

1726
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:33,600
Nazi war

1727
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:33,920
criminal

1728
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:34,780
he came

1729
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:35,060
here

1730
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:35,700
I know

1731
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:36,300
twice

1732
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:37,040
possibly

1733
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:37,360
three

1734
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:37,820
times

1735
00:35:37,820 --> 00:35:38,260
and so

1736
00:35:38,260 --> 00:35:39,020
in

1737
00:35:39,020 --> 00:35:39,940
filing

1738
00:35:39,940 --> 00:35:40,260
Freedom

1739
00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:40,420
of

1740
00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:40,840
Information

1741
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:41,140
Act

1742
00:35:41,140 --> 00:35:41,500
requests

1743
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:41,780
with the

1744
00:35:41,780 --> 00:35:42,000
State

1745
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:42,420
Department

1746
00:35:42,420 --> 00:35:43,260
those

1747
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:43,840
Ambrose

1748
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,280
files

1749
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:44,720
of those

1750
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:45,120
travel

1751
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:45,620
documents

1752
00:35:45,620 --> 00:35:45,880
he would

1753
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:46,240
have had

1754
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:46,900
to have

1755
00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:47,240
been given

1756
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:47,620
special

1757
00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:47,980
permission

1758
00:35:47,980 --> 00:35:49,020
always came

1759
00:35:49,020 --> 00:35:49,500
up lost

1760
00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:49,940
or missing

1761
00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:51,460
and the

1762
00:35:51,460 --> 00:35:51,900
second part

1763
00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:52,100
of your

1764
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:52,460
question

1765
00:35:52,460 --> 00:35:53,000
just remind

1766
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:53,180
me

1767
00:35:53,180 --> 00:35:53,420
if you

1768
00:35:53,420 --> 00:35:53,620
would

1769
00:35:53,620 --> 00:35:54,480
what does

1770
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:54,800
this say

1771
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:55,140
about

1772
00:35:55,140 --> 00:35:55,860
allied

1773
00:35:55,860 --> 00:35:56,620
denazification

1774
00:35:56,620 --> 00:35:57,240
efforts

1775
00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:57,440
I mean

1776
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:57,640
it was

1777
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:58,560
a huge

1778
00:35:58,560 --> 00:35:58,920
effort

1779
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,220
many people

1780
00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:01,120
were imprisoned

1781
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,060
interrogated

1782
00:36:02,060 --> 00:36:03,500
reeducation

1783
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:04,020
of Germany

1784
00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:04,420
you know

1785
00:36:04,420 --> 00:36:05,100
massive

1786
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:05,660
changes

1787
00:36:05,660 --> 00:36:06,100
that occurred

1788
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:06,420
I mean

1789
00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:07,800
just your

1790
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:08,160
comments

1791
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:08,620
and thoughts

1792
00:36:08,620 --> 00:36:09,100
on the

1793
00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:10,160
sincerity

1794
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:10,540
of these

1795
00:36:10,540 --> 00:36:10,900
efforts

1796
00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:11,700
well

1797
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:13,140
Germany

1798
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:13,400
was

1799
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,620
divided up

1800
00:36:14,620 --> 00:36:15,060
into four

1801
00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:15,500
parts

1802
00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:15,820
for the

1803
00:36:15,820 --> 00:36:16,200
allies

1804
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:16,900
and of

1805
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:17,280
the part

1806
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:17,560
that we

1807
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:17,780
had

1808
00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:18,120
which had

1809
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:18,820
20 million

1810
00:36:18,820 --> 00:36:19,400
Germans

1811
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,600
U.S.

1812
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,120
occupation

1813
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:21,760
authorities

1814
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:22,240
originally

1815
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:22,780
determined

1816
00:36:22,780 --> 00:36:23,240
that there

1817
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:23,440
were

1818
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,640
3.9

1819
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:26,400
million

1820
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:27,980
indictable

1821
00:36:27,980 --> 00:36:28,620
offenders

1822
00:36:28,620 --> 00:36:29,920
they whittled

1823
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:30,420
down that

1824
00:36:30,420 --> 00:36:30,720
figure

1825
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:30,940
to

1826
00:36:30,940 --> 00:36:32,960
970,000

1827
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,400
of that

1828
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,780
970,000

1829
00:36:35,780 --> 00:36:36,260
ultimately

1830
00:36:36,260 --> 00:36:37,960
170,000

1831
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,080
were tried

1832
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:39,960
in those

1833
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:40,660
denazification

1834
00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:41,260
courts

1835
00:36:41,260 --> 00:36:41,600
that you're

1836
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:42,200
speaking of

1837
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,860
50,000

1838
00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:44,920
were held

1839
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,140
were given

1840
00:36:46,140 --> 00:36:46,580
criminal

1841
00:36:46,580 --> 00:36:47,040
sentences

1842
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:47,460
a lot of

1843
00:36:47,460 --> 00:36:47,780
times it

1844
00:36:47,780 --> 00:36:48,320
was work

1845
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:48,860
or paying

1846
00:36:48,860 --> 00:36:49,320
a fine

1847
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:50,440
and of

1848
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:50,800
that

1849
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:51,760
just around

1850
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:52,340
1,000

1851
00:36:52,340 --> 00:36:53,180
were put

1852
00:36:53,180 --> 00:36:53,640
in prison

1853
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,040
thank you

1854
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,100
once

1855
00:36:58,100 --> 00:36:59,680
the

1856
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:00,100
United

1857
00:37:00,100 --> 00:37:00,640
States

1858
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,000
and

1859
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:01,500
allies

1860
00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:02,140
decided

1861
00:37:02,140 --> 00:37:02,420
that

1862
00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:02,600
there

1863
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:02,920
was

1864
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:03,180
going

1865
00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:03,400
to

1866
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:03,660
be

1867
00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:04,000
West

1868
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:04,440
Germany

1869
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,220
many

1870
00:37:07,220 --> 00:37:08,520
Nazis

1871
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:09,940
became

1872
00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:10,420
part

1873
00:37:10,420 --> 00:37:11,180
of the

1874
00:37:11,180 --> 00:37:13,140
secret

1875
00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:13,720
service

1876
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:14,140
intelligence

1877
00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:14,660
service

1878
00:37:14,660 --> 00:37:15,160
in Germany

1879
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:15,560
in fact

1880
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:16,460
there's a

1881
00:37:16,460 --> 00:37:16,760
general

1882
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,280
whose name

1883
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:17,860
I forgot

1884
00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:18,740
he became

1885
00:37:18,740 --> 00:37:20,360
the chief

1886
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:21,880
so

1887
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:22,340
Galen

1888
00:37:22,340 --> 00:37:22,820
became the

1889
00:37:22,820 --> 00:37:23,040
chief

1890
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:23,560
immediately

1891
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:23,920
after

1892
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:24,280
the war

1893
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:24,740
so

1894
00:37:24,740 --> 00:37:27,220
don't you

1895
00:37:27,220 --> 00:37:27,840
think that

1896
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,080
they were

1897
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:29,640
not thinking

1898
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:30,120
about the

1899
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:30,540
victims

1900
00:37:30,540 --> 00:37:31,300
of this

1901
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:31,640
man

1902
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:32,840
at all

1903
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:33,700
not anymore

1904
00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:34,580
they were

1905
00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:34,820
more

1906
00:37:34,820 --> 00:37:35,340
interested

1907
00:37:35,340 --> 00:37:35,760
in

1908
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,240
acquiring

1909
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:40,180
the knowledge

1910
00:37:40,180 --> 00:37:40,680
from the

1911
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,020
Germans

1912
00:37:41,020 --> 00:37:41,800
and also

1913
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,320
be strong

1914
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:45,000
to face

1915
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:45,460
the new

1916
00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:45,820
enemy

1917
00:37:45,820 --> 00:37:46,220
which was

1918
00:37:46,220 --> 00:37:46,560
Russia

1919
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:47,280
yes

1920
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:47,480
you're

1921
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:47,880
absolutely

1922
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,300
right

1923
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:48,560
and

1924
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:49,300
I

1925
00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:49,780
write

1926
00:37:49,780 --> 00:37:49,940
about

1927
00:37:49,940 --> 00:37:50,100
that

1928
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:50,240
at

1929
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:50,460
length

1930
00:37:50,460 --> 00:37:50,680
in the

1931
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:50,840
book

1932
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:51,260
because

1933
00:37:51,260 --> 00:37:52,040
the

1934
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:52,440
Soviet

1935
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:53,060
threat

1936
00:37:53,060 --> 00:37:53,880
was

1937
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:54,580
considered

1938
00:37:54,580 --> 00:37:55,560
extreme

1939
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:55,920
much

1940
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:56,360
earlier

1941
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:56,740
than

1942
00:37:56,740 --> 00:37:57,860
we

1943
00:37:57,860 --> 00:37:58,180
think

1944
00:37:58,180 --> 00:37:58,420
it was

1945
00:37:58,420 --> 00:37:58,640
really

1946
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:58,900
in the

1947
00:37:58,900 --> 00:37:59,180
months

1948
00:37:59,180 --> 00:37:59,460
after

1949
00:37:59,460 --> 00:37:59,620
the

1950
00:37:59,620 --> 00:37:59,880
war

1951
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:00,320
the

1952
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:00,620
joint

1953
00:38:00,620 --> 00:38:01,180
intelligence

1954
00:38:01,180 --> 00:38:01,500
committee

1955
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:01,700
that

1956
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:02,140
reported

1957
00:38:02,140 --> 00:38:02,780
information

1958
00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:03,040
to the

1959
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:03,240
joint

1960
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:03,540
chiefs

1961
00:38:03,540 --> 00:38:03,660
of

1962
00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:03,980
staff

1963
00:38:03,980 --> 00:38:04,620
gave

1964
00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:04,760
a

1965
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:05,160
document

1966
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:05,360
to

1967
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:05,480
the

1968
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:05,680
joint

1969
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:05,980
chiefs

1970
00:38:05,980 --> 00:38:06,080
of

1971
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:06,360
staff

1972
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:06,520
and

1973
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:06,700
said

1974
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:07,160
we

1975
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:07,420
must

1976
00:38:07,420 --> 00:38:07,840
prepare

1977
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:08,120
for

1978
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:08,720
total

1979
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:09,220
war

1980
00:38:09,220 --> 00:38:09,800
that

1981
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:09,920
was

1982
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:10,060
the

1983
00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:10,260
quote

1984
00:38:10,260 --> 00:38:10,440
they

1985
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:10,720
used

1986
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:10,920
with

1987
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:11,080
the

1988
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:11,560
Soviets

1989
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:12,220
and

1990
00:38:12,220 --> 00:38:12,560
said

1991
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:12,660
it

1992
00:38:12,660 --> 00:38:12,860
will

1993
00:38:12,860 --> 00:38:13,320
involve

1994
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,020
ABC

1995
00:38:14,020 --> 00:38:14,700
warfare

1996
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:15,280
atomic

1997
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:16,220
biological

1998
00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:16,560
and

1999
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:16,880
chemical

2000
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:17,440
so

2001
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:17,660
we

2002
00:38:17,660 --> 00:38:18,220
absolutely

2003
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:18,440
the

2004
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:18,780
position

2005
00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:19,140
was

2006
00:38:19,140 --> 00:38:19,620
we

2007
00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:19,960
must

2008
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:20,160
get

2009
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:20,380
these

2010
00:38:20,380 --> 00:38:20,760
scientists

2011
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:21,280
or the

2012
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:21,600
Soviets

2013
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:21,960
will

2014
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,700
thank you

2015
00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:25,240
for your

2016
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:26,780
wonderful

2017
00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:27,200
talk

2018
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,400
is there

2019
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:29,880
a statue

2020
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:30,580
of limitation

2021
00:38:30,580 --> 00:38:31,840
on war

2022
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:32,300
crimes

2023
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:33,080
and are

2024
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:33,560
any of

2025
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:33,780
these

2026
00:38:33,780 --> 00:38:34,120
people

2027
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:34,800
still alive

2028
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:35,200
today

2029
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,100
as far

2030
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:37,360
as I

2031
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:37,580
know

2032
00:38:37,580 --> 00:38:37,960
all of

2033
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:38,120
the

2034
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:38,700
as far

2035
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:38,880
as I

2036
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:39,000
know

2037
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:39,240
all of

2038
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:39,340
the

2039
00:38:39,340 --> 00:38:39,700
operation

2040
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:40,160
paperclip

2041
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:40,780
scientists

2042
00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:41,620
have died

2043
00:38:41,620 --> 00:38:42,840
the

2044
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:43,180
statue

2045
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:43,320
of

2046
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:43,820
limitations

2047
00:38:43,820 --> 00:38:44,100
that

2048
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:44,200
was

2049
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:44,340
a

2050
00:38:44,340 --> 00:38:44,660
question

2051
00:38:44,660 --> 00:38:44,860
that

2052
00:38:44,860 --> 00:38:45,240
came

2053
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:45,680
up

2054
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:46,320
when

2055
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:46,740
Dr.

2056
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:47,320
Schreiber

2057
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:47,660
when

2058
00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:48,380
we

2059
00:38:48,380 --> 00:38:48,500
were

2060
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:48,720
trying

2061
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:48,860
to

2062
00:38:48,860 --> 00:38:49,020
get

2063
00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:49,220
rid

2064
00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:49,340
of

2065
00:38:49,340 --> 00:38:49,600
him

2066
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:50,000
after

2067
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:50,320
this

2068
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,260
enormous

2069
00:38:51,260 --> 00:38:51,920
press

2070
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:52,720
situation

2071
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:53,160
happened

2072
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:53,520
when

2073
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:54,280
the

2074
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:54,960
war

2075
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:55,400
crimes

2076
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:55,880
victim

2077
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,280
testified

2078
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:57,900
to the

2079
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:58,280
FBI

2080
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:58,660
that

2081
00:38:58,660 --> 00:38:58,900
this

2082
00:38:58,900 --> 00:38:59,080
was

2083
00:38:59,080 --> 00:38:59,240
the

2084
00:38:59,240 --> 00:38:59,600
Schreiber

2085
00:38:59,600 --> 00:38:59,880
from

2086
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:00,280
Ravens

2087
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:00,420
Book

2088
00:39:00,420 --> 00:39:01,040
Concentration

2089
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:01,360
Camp

2090
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:02,000
a

2091
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:02,420
Time

2092
00:39:02,420 --> 00:39:02,880
Magazine

2093
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,040
journalist

2094
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,280
asked

2095
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:06,960
the

2096
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:07,120
head

2097
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:07,320
of the

2098
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:07,460
Air

2099
00:39:07,460 --> 00:39:07,640
Force

2100
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:07,840
that

2101
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:08,640
exact

2102
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:09,360
question

2103
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,000
and he

2104
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:11,320
said

2105
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:11,480
we're

2106
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:11,700
not

2107
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:11,920
going

2108
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:12,100
to

2109
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:12,360
start

2110
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:12,540
the

2111
00:39:12,540 --> 00:39:13,060
Nuremberg

2112
00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:13,460
trials

2113
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:13,840
over

2114
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:14,680
so

2115
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:15,580
that

2116
00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:15,780
sort

2117
00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:15,860
of

2118
00:39:15,860 --> 00:39:16,140
answers

2119
00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:16,340
your

2120
00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:16,660
question

2121
00:39:16,660 --> 00:39:16,880
and

2122
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:17,060
that

2123
00:39:17,060 --> 00:39:17,320
was

2124
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:18,080
in

2125
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,240
1951

2126
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:20,980
also

2127
00:39:20,980 --> 00:39:22,780
were

2128
00:39:22,780 --> 00:39:23,740
the

2129
00:39:23,740 --> 00:39:24,340
Mossad

2130
00:39:24,340 --> 00:39:24,900
at all

2131
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:25,400
trying

2132
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:25,900
to

2133
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:26,280
get

2134
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:26,520
to

2135
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:26,760
these

2136
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:27,140
people

2137
00:39:27,140 --> 00:39:27,440
does

2138
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:27,740
anybody

2139
00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:28,080
know

2140
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,380
that

2141
00:39:28,380 --> 00:39:29,380
having

2142
00:39:29,380 --> 00:39:29,740
known

2143
00:39:29,740 --> 00:39:30,080
that

2144
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:30,240
they

2145
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:30,720
took

2146
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:31,060
people

2147
00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:31,280
out

2148
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:31,400
of

2149
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:31,960
Argentina

2150
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:32,300
could

2151
00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:32,520
they

2152
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:32,760
have

2153
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:33,360
not

2154
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:33,820
found

2155
00:39:33,820 --> 00:39:34,140
them

2156
00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:34,340
on

2157
00:39:34,340 --> 00:39:34,500
the

2158
00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:34,800
streets

2159
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:34,980
in

2160
00:39:34,980 --> 00:39:35,100
the

2161
00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:35,320
United

2162
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:35,760
States

2163
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:36,460
why

2164
00:39:36,460 --> 00:39:36,680
was

2165
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:36,840
that

2166
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:37,020
so

2167
00:39:37,020 --> 00:39:37,420
difficult

2168
00:39:37,420 --> 00:39:38,680
I

2169
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:38,980
don't

2170
00:39:38,980 --> 00:39:39,280
really

2171
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:39,540
deal

2172
00:39:39,540 --> 00:39:39,680
with

2173
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:40,080
the Mossad

2174
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:40,360
in my

2175
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:40,600
book

2176
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:40,820
but

2177
00:39:40,820 --> 00:39:40,960
I

2178
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:41,180
mean

2179
00:39:41,180 --> 00:39:41,900
there

2180
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:42,040
were

2181
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:42,500
programs

2182
00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:42,800
going

2183
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:43,020
on

2184
00:39:43,020 --> 00:39:43,320
all

2185
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:43,480
over

2186
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:43,640
the

2187
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:43,820
Middle

2188
00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:44,080
East

2189
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:44,320
as

2190
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:44,580
well

2191
00:39:44,580 --> 00:39:50,560
yes

2192
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:50,960
you

2193
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,060
mentioned

2194
00:39:52,060 --> 00:39:53,540
the

2195
00:39:53,540 --> 00:39:53,920
Soviets

2196
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:54,200
were

2197
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:54,640
interested

2198
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:55,080
in

2199
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:55,700
these

2200
00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:56,440
scientists

2201
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:56,760
as

2202
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:57,040
well

2203
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:57,740
so

2204
00:39:57,740 --> 00:39:57,900
there

2205
00:39:57,900 --> 00:39:58,040
was

2206
00:39:58,040 --> 00:39:58,220
some

2207
00:39:58,220 --> 00:39:58,440
kind

2208
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:58,560
of

2209
00:39:58,560 --> 00:39:59,120
competition

2210
00:39:59,120 --> 00:39:59,440
so

2211
00:39:59,440 --> 00:39:59,660
how

2212
00:39:59,660 --> 00:40:00,680
successful

2213
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,580
may

2214
00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:04,900
not be

2215
00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:05,040
the

2216
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:05,200
right

2217
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:05,460
word

2218
00:40:05,460 --> 00:40:05,680
but

2219
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:06,880
how

2220
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,040
did

2221
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:07,220
the

2222
00:40:07,220 --> 00:40:07,620
efforts

2223
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:08,420
compare

2224
00:40:08,420 --> 00:40:08,660
to

2225
00:40:08,660 --> 00:40:08,920
the

2226
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:09,440
Soviets

2227
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:10,300
that's

2228
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:10,340
that's

2229
00:40:10,340 --> 00:40:10,560
that's

2230
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:10,780
a very

2231
00:40:10,780 --> 00:40:11,140
important

2232
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:11,500
question

2233
00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:12,300
particularly

2234
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:12,580
with

2235
00:40:12,580 --> 00:40:12,700
the

2236
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:13,000
rocket

2237
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:13,500
scientists

2238
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:13,880
because

2239
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:14,460
we

2240
00:40:14,460 --> 00:40:14,740
knew

2241
00:40:14,740 --> 00:40:14,940
the

2242
00:40:14,940 --> 00:40:15,260
most

2243
00:40:15,260 --> 00:40:15,560
about

2244
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:15,940
that

2245
00:40:15,940 --> 00:40:17,440
prior

2246
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:17,700
to

2247
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:17,840
the

2248
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:18,020
end

2249
00:40:18,020 --> 00:40:18,140
of

2250
00:40:18,140 --> 00:40:18,260
the

2251
00:40:18,260 --> 00:40:18,520
war

2252
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:19,380
and

2253
00:40:19,380 --> 00:40:19,660
there

2254
00:40:19,660 --> 00:40:20,060
was

2255
00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:20,260
a

2256
00:40:20,260 --> 00:40:20,720
real

2257
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:21,640
time

2258
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:22,240
crunch

2259
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:23,140
getting

2260
00:40:23,140 --> 00:40:23,780
those

2261
00:40:23,780 --> 00:40:24,480
German

2262
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:24,980
scientists

2263
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:25,400
out

2264
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:25,540
of

2265
00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:26,160
Nordhausen

2266
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:26,420
because

2267
00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:27,060
that

2268
00:40:27,060 --> 00:40:27,400
area

2269
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:27,580
was

2270
00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:27,760
going

2271
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:27,900
to

2272
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:28,020
be

2273
00:40:28,020 --> 00:40:28,160
in

2274
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:28,440
Soviet

2275
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:28,900
control

2276
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:29,500
we

2277
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:29,720
got

2278
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:30,700
114

2279
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:30,980
of

2280
00:40:30,980 --> 00:40:31,160
them

2281
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:31,780
the

2282
00:40:31,780 --> 00:40:32,180
Russians

2283
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:32,600
got

2284
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:33,420
200

2285
00:40:33,420 --> 00:40:34,220
500

2286
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:34,960
900

2287
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:35,620
depends

2288
00:40:35,620 --> 00:40:35,940
on

2289
00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:36,180
which

2290
00:40:36,180 --> 00:40:36,660
source

2291
00:40:36,660 --> 00:40:36,800
of

2292
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:37,200
information

2293
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:37,560
you use

2294
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:38,100
but

2295
00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:38,460
here's

2296
00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:38,840
the rub

2297
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:39,020
with

2298
00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:39,300
that

2299
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:39,980
the

2300
00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:40,560
Soviets

2301
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,120
loathed

2302
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:42,320
the

2303
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:42,660
Germans

2304
00:40:42,660 --> 00:40:43,020
and

2305
00:40:43,020 --> 00:40:43,280
vice

2306
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:43,580
versa

2307
00:40:43,580 --> 00:40:43,900
because

2308
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:44,080
of

2309
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:44,200
the

2310
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:44,400
war

2311
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:44,560
for

2312
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:44,660
the

2313
00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:44,860
most

2314
00:40:44,860 --> 00:40:45,140
part

2315
00:40:45,140 --> 00:40:45,700
and

2316
00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:45,980
so

2317
00:40:45,980 --> 00:40:46,240
the

2318
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:46,680
Soviets

2319
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:47,560
treated

2320
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:47,940
their

2321
00:40:47,940 --> 00:40:48,360
German

2322
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:48,820
scientists

2323
00:40:48,820 --> 00:40:49,080
as

2324
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:49,340
second

2325
00:40:49,340 --> 00:40:49,660
class

2326
00:40:49,660 --> 00:40:50,220
citizens

2327
00:40:50,220 --> 00:40:51,100
whereas

2328
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:52,120
our

2329
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:52,480
German

2330
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:52,960
scientists

2331
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:53,620
the rocket

2332
00:40:53,620 --> 00:40:54,000
scientists

2333
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:54,440
in particular

2334
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:54,860
were put up

2335
00:40:54,860 --> 00:40:55,080
on a

2336
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:55,520
pedestal

2337
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:55,680
and

2338
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,360
given

2339
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:56,900
leadership

2340
00:40:56,900 --> 00:40:57,420
positions

2341
00:40:57,420 --> 00:40:57,680
in the

2342
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:58,100
program

2343
00:40:58,100 --> 00:40:58,960
the

2344
00:40:58,960 --> 00:40:59,240
German

2345
00:40:59,240 --> 00:40:59,720
scientists

2346
00:40:59,720 --> 00:40:59,920
were

2347
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:00,240
considered

2348
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:00,620
second

2349
00:41:00,620 --> 00:41:01,000
class

2350
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:01,420
citizens

2351
00:41:01,420 --> 00:41:01,800
as far

2352
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:01,900
as

2353
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:02,020
the

2354
00:41:02,020 --> 00:41:02,280
Russians

2355
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:02,480
were

2356
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:02,860
concerned

2357
00:41:02,860 --> 00:41:03,620
so

2358
00:41:03,620 --> 00:41:03,960
much

2359
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:04,200
so

2360
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:04,380
that

2361
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:04,580
they

2362
00:41:04,580 --> 00:41:05,340
squeezed

2363
00:41:05,340 --> 00:41:05,540
them

2364
00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:05,680
of

2365
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:06,120
information

2366
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:06,300
and

2367
00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:06,460
then

2368
00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:06,680
sent

2369
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:06,800
them

2370
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:06,980
back

2371
00:41:06,980 --> 00:41:07,140
to

2372
00:41:07,140 --> 00:41:07,540
Germany

2373
00:41:07,540 --> 00:41:08,380
at

2374
00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:08,640
which

2375
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:08,960
point

2376
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:09,140
the

2377
00:41:09,140 --> 00:41:09,640
CIA

2378
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:10,700
created

2379
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:10,880
a

2380
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:11,240
program

2381
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:11,620
called

2382
00:41:11,620 --> 00:41:12,400
Operation

2383
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,060
Dragon

2384
00:41:13,060 --> 00:41:13,640
Return

2385
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,300
and

2386
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:15,860
they

2387
00:41:15,860 --> 00:41:16,260
sent

2388
00:41:16,260 --> 00:41:16,720
CIA

2389
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:17,280
officers

2390
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:17,800
into

2391
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:18,220
Germany

2392
00:41:18,220 --> 00:41:18,560
to

2393
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:19,180
gather

2394
00:41:19,180 --> 00:41:19,580
up

2395
00:41:19,580 --> 00:41:20,260
information

2396
00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:20,500
and

2397
00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:20,860
testimony

2398
00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:21,520
from

2399
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:21,800
every

2400
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:22,160
German

2401
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:22,620
scientist

2402
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:22,880
who

2403
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:23,000
had

2404
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:23,160
been

2405
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:23,260
in

2406
00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:23,380
the

2407
00:41:23,380 --> 00:41:23,660
Soviet

2408
00:41:23,660 --> 00:41:24,080
Union

2409
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:24,640
to

2410
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:24,940
find

2411
00:41:24,940 --> 00:41:25,220
out

2412
00:41:25,220 --> 00:41:25,580
what

2413
00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:25,900
they

2414
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:26,280
knew

2415
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:26,820
about

2416
00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:27,020
the

2417
00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:27,360
Soviet

2418
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:27,920
missile

2419
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:28,400
program

2420
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:28,960
which

2421
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:29,160
was

2422
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:29,660
almost

2423
00:41:29,660 --> 00:41:30,220
nothing

2424
00:41:30,220 --> 00:41:31,140
because

2425
00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:31,580
they

2426
00:41:31,580 --> 00:41:31,720
were

2427
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:32,000
kept

2428
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:32,160
from

2429
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:32,280
the

2430
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:32,720
information

2431
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:33,340
so

2432
00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:33,540
the

2433
00:41:33,540 --> 00:41:33,820
end

2434
00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:34,260
story

2435
00:41:34,260 --> 00:41:34,460
of

2436
00:41:34,460 --> 00:41:34,780
that

2437
00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:35,300
is

2438
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:36,060
the

2439
00:41:36,060 --> 00:41:36,480
Soviet

2440
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:37,100
program

2441
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:37,980
went

2442
00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:38,600
very

2443
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,040
well

2444
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:39,420
without

2445
00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:39,780
the

2446
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:40,020
help

2447
00:41:40,020 --> 00:41:40,280
of the

2448
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:40,520
Nazi

2449
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:41,000
scientists

2450
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:41,860
which

2451
00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:42,360
you

2452
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:42,620
must

2453
00:41:42,620 --> 00:41:42,840
ask

2454
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:42,960
the

2455
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:43,240
question

2456
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:43,460
then

2457
00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:43,700
did

2458
00:41:43,700 --> 00:41:43,880
we

2459
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,160
really

2460
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:44,440
need

2461
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:44,680
them

2462
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,940
thank

2463
00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:47,300
you

2464
00:41:47,300 --> 00:41:49,100
I'm

2465
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:49,440
curious

2466
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:49,820
about

2467
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:50,920
your

2468
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:51,300
access

2469
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:51,700
and

2470
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:52,220
researching

2471
00:41:52,220 --> 00:41:52,560
you

2472
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:52,980
mentioned

2473
00:41:52,980 --> 00:41:53,500
a few

2474
00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:53,840
instances

2475
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,280
and

2476
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:54,460
just

2477
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:54,680
your

2478
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,620
talk

2479
00:41:55,620 --> 00:41:56,000
about

2480
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:56,760
some

2481
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,340
not

2482
00:41:57,340 --> 00:41:57,560
being

2483
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:57,740
allowed

2484
00:41:57,740 --> 00:41:58,140
publishing

2485
00:41:58,140 --> 00:41:58,400
and

2486
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:58,640
FIFA

2487
00:41:58,640 --> 00:41:59,040
access

2488
00:41:59,040 --> 00:41:59,360
denied

2489
00:41:59,360 --> 00:41:59,820
if you

2490
00:41:59,820 --> 00:41:59,940
could

2491
00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:00,060
talk

2492
00:42:00,060 --> 00:42:00,200
about

2493
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:00,300
the

2494
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:00,580
challenges

2495
00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:00,900
of that

2496
00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:01,040
and

2497
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:01,200
some

2498
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:01,500
more

2499
00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:02,280
at

2500
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:02,480
length

2501
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:02,920
yeah

2502
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:03,180
I mean

2503
00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:03,480
there's

2504
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:03,880
always

2505
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:04,080
a

2506
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:04,440
challenge

2507
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:04,620
but

2508
00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:04,780
as

2509
00:42:04,780 --> 00:42:04,920
a

2510
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:05,220
journalist

2511
00:42:05,220 --> 00:42:05,420
you

2512
00:42:05,420 --> 00:42:05,640
just

2513
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:05,860
or

2514
00:42:05,860 --> 00:42:05,980
at

2515
00:42:05,980 --> 00:42:06,120
least

2516
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:06,240
the

2517
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:06,340
way

2518
00:42:06,340 --> 00:42:06,500
that

2519
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:06,660
I

2520
00:42:06,660 --> 00:42:06,840
work

2521
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:06,960
is

2522
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:07,040
I

2523
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:07,240
just

2524
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:07,580
find

2525
00:42:07,580 --> 00:42:07,800
my

2526
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,220
story

2527
00:42:08,220 --> 00:42:08,800
however

2528
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:09,160
I

2529
00:42:13,460 --> 00:42:14,120
you

2530
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:14,740
you

2531
00:42:14,740 --> 00:42:15,060
find

2532
00:42:15,060 --> 00:42:15,320
out

2533
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:15,580
you

2534
00:42:15,580 --> 00:42:15,800
find

2535
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:15,920
what

2536
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:16,020
you're

2537
00:42:16,020 --> 00:42:16,200
looking

2538
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:16,400
for

2539
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:16,520
I

2540
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:16,660
mean

2541
00:42:16,660 --> 00:42:18,460
one

2542
00:42:18,460 --> 00:42:18,920
example

2543
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:19,160
I

2544
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:19,340
was

2545
00:42:19,340 --> 00:42:19,800
really

2546
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:20,360
fascinated

2547
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:20,640
with

2548
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:20,940
Dr.

2549
00:42:21,020 --> 00:42:21,260
Blom

2550
00:42:21,260 --> 00:42:21,500
and

2551
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:21,780
Dr.

2552
00:42:21,860 --> 00:42:22,140
Schreiber

2553
00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:22,340
just

2554
00:42:22,340 --> 00:42:22,580
because

2555
00:42:22,580 --> 00:42:22,740
they

2556
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:22,940
were

2557
00:42:22,940 --> 00:42:23,700
such

2558
00:42:23,700 --> 00:42:24,060
high

2559
00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:24,360
ranking

2560
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:24,740
members

2561
00:42:24,740 --> 00:42:24,900
of

2562
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:25,020
the

2563
00:42:25,020 --> 00:42:25,240
Reich

2564
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:26,000
Dr.

2565
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:26,600
Blom's

2566
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:27,180
son

2567
00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:27,860
spoke

2568
00:42:27,860 --> 00:42:28,160
to me

2569
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:28,520
invited

2570
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:28,700
me

2571
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:28,860
into

2572
00:42:28,860 --> 00:42:29,020
his

2573
00:42:29,020 --> 00:42:29,280
home

2574
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:29,420
he

2575
00:42:29,420 --> 00:42:29,520
had

2576
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:29,840
never

2577
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:30,460
spoken

2578
00:42:30,460 --> 00:42:30,640
with

2579
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:30,780
a

2580
00:42:30,780 --> 00:42:31,100
journalist

2581
00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:31,500
before

2582
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:31,740
he's

2583
00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:31,820
in

2584
00:42:31,820 --> 00:42:31,980
his

2585
00:42:31,980 --> 00:42:32,620
70s

2586
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:33,500
he

2587
00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:33,820
shared

2588
00:42:33,820 --> 00:42:34,140
lots

2589
00:42:34,140 --> 00:42:34,280
of

2590
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:34,760
information

2591
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:34,980
with

2592
00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:35,120
me

2593
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:35,560
very

2594
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:36,400
courageously

2595
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,680
you

2596
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:37,800
know

2597
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:38,160
we

2598
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:38,360
all

2599
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:38,580
have

2600
00:42:38,580 --> 00:42:38,900
father

2601
00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:39,300
issues

2602
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:39,780
that's

2603
00:42:39,780 --> 00:42:39,920
a

2604
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:40,140
real

2605
00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:40,500
father

2606
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:40,880
issue

2607
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,480
on

2608
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:42,620
the

2609
00:42:42,620 --> 00:42:42,840
other

2610
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:43,300
hand

2611
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:43,720
Dr.

2612
00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:44,500
Ambrose

2613
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:45,680
you

2614
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:45,800
know

2615
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:45,980
and

2616
00:42:45,980 --> 00:42:46,340
mindful

2617
00:42:46,340 --> 00:42:46,560
of

2618
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:46,820
this

2619
00:42:46,820 --> 00:42:47,280
money

2620
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:47,560
being

2621
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:48,040
restored

2622
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:48,260
to

2623
00:42:48,260 --> 00:42:48,660
Ambrose

2624
00:42:48,660 --> 00:42:48,880
I

2625
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:49,320
found

2626
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:49,520
out

2627
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:49,660
that

2628
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:50,080
Ambrose

2629
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:50,660
had

2630
00:42:50,660 --> 00:42:50,820
a

2631
00:42:50,820 --> 00:42:51,040
villa

2632
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:51,340
in

2633
00:42:51,340 --> 00:42:51,720
Switzerland

2634
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:52,700
and

2635
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:52,840
I

2636
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:53,100
really

2637
00:42:53,100 --> 00:42:53,400
wanted

2638
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:53,580
to

2639
00:42:53,580 --> 00:42:53,720
know

2640
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:53,920
about

2641
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,100
that

2642
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:54,380
money

2643
00:42:54,380 --> 00:42:54,580
so

2644
00:42:54,580 --> 00:42:54,720
I

2645
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:54,980
tracked

2646
00:42:54,980 --> 00:42:55,260
down

2647
00:42:55,260 --> 00:42:55,940
Ambrose's

2648
00:42:55,940 --> 00:42:56,220
son

2649
00:42:56,220 --> 00:42:57,900
but

2650
00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:58,100
he

2651
00:42:58,100 --> 00:42:58,580
refused

2652
00:42:58,580 --> 00:42:58,800
to

2653
00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,020
speak

2654
00:42:59,020 --> 00:42:59,200
to

2655
00:42:59,200 --> 00:42:59,360
me

2656
00:42:59,360 --> 00:42:59,540
you

2657
00:42:59,540 --> 00:42:59,620
know

2658
00:42:59,620 --> 00:42:59,800
we

2659
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:00,140
had

2660
00:43:00,140 --> 00:43:00,320
sort

2661
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:00,380
of

2662
00:43:00,380 --> 00:43:00,500
a

2663
00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:01,020
correspondence

2664
00:43:01,020 --> 00:43:01,280
a

2665
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:01,440
little

2666
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:01,720
bit

2667
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:02,160
and

2668
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:02,500
when I

2669
00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:02,840
asked

2670
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:02,980
him

2671
00:43:02,980 --> 00:43:03,120
could

2672
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:03,220
you

2673
00:43:03,220 --> 00:43:03,420
tell

2674
00:43:03,420 --> 00:43:03,560
me

2675
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:03,680
a

2676
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:03,820
little

2677
00:43:03,820 --> 00:43:03,980
bit

2678
00:43:03,980 --> 00:43:04,220
about

2679
00:43:04,220 --> 00:43:04,800
how

2680
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:05,040
you

2681
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:05,440
present

2682
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:05,720
this

2683
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:06,300
information

2684
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:07,060
to

2685
00:43:07,060 --> 00:43:07,380
your

2686
00:43:07,380 --> 00:43:07,820
family

2687
00:43:07,820 --> 00:43:08,000
to

2688
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:08,140
your

2689
00:43:08,140 --> 00:43:08,660
grandchildren

2690
00:43:08,660 --> 00:43:08,960
for

2691
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:09,300
example

2692
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:09,860
who

2693
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:10,200
happen

2694
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:10,420
to

2695
00:43:10,420 --> 00:43:10,760
live

2696
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:11,960
not

2697
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:12,260
far

2698
00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:12,460
from

2699
00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:12,620
where

2700
00:43:12,620 --> 00:43:12,780
I

2701
00:43:12,780 --> 00:43:12,960
live

2702
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:13,080
in

2703
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:13,320
Los

2704
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:13,700
Angeles

2705
00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:15,420
you

2706
00:43:15,420 --> 00:43:15,540
know

2707
00:43:15,540 --> 00:43:15,780
he

2708
00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:16,280
ceased

2709
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:17,020
conversation

2710
00:43:17,020 --> 00:43:17,260
with

2711
00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:17,380
me

2712
00:43:17,380 --> 00:43:17,500
and

2713
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:17,640
he

2714
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:17,820
said

2715
00:43:17,820 --> 00:43:18,020
that

2716
00:43:18,020 --> 00:43:18,160
is

2717
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:18,320
a

2718
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:18,660
private

2719
00:43:18,660 --> 00:43:19,100
matter

2720
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:24,500
there's

2721
00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:24,700
got

2722
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:24,800
to

2723
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:24,900
be

2724
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:25,120
more

2725
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:25,580
questions

2726
00:43:25,580 --> 00:43:26,380
this

2727
00:43:26,380 --> 00:43:26,560
looks

2728
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:26,720
like

2729
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:26,840
a

2730
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:27,240
curious

2731
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:27,600
group

2732
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,940
one

2733
00:43:33,940 --> 00:43:34,180
is

2734
00:43:34,180 --> 00:43:34,300
to

2735
00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:34,440
keep

2736
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:34,620
in

2737
00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:35,080
mind

2738
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:35,480
the

2739
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:36,540
standards

2740
00:43:36,540 --> 00:43:36,820
of

2741
00:43:36,820 --> 00:43:37,280
ethics

2742
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:37,940
back

2743
00:43:37,940 --> 00:43:38,360
then

2744
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,380
were

2745
00:43:39,380 --> 00:43:39,640
not

2746
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:39,840
what

2747
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:39,980
they

2748
00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:40,140
are

2749
00:43:40,140 --> 00:43:40,400
now

2750
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:41,400
there

2751
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:41,640
were

2752
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:42,020
human

2753
00:43:42,020 --> 00:43:42,660
experiments

2754
00:43:42,660 --> 00:43:42,860
in

2755
00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:42,960
the

2756
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:43,140
United

2757
00:43:43,140 --> 00:43:43,500
States

2758
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:43,680
for

2759
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:44,020
example

2760
00:43:44,020 --> 00:43:44,860
where

2761
00:43:44,860 --> 00:43:44,980
they

2762
00:43:44,980 --> 00:43:45,640
inoculated

2763
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,500
African

2764
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:47,180
Americans

2765
00:43:47,180 --> 00:43:47,660
and

2766
00:43:47,660 --> 00:43:48,340
Hispanics

2767
00:43:48,340 --> 00:43:49,040
with

2768
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:49,760
gonorrhea

2769
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:50,720
bacteria

2770
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:51,120
etc

2771
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,300
so I

2772
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:52,480
don't

2773
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:52,780
think

2774
00:43:52,780 --> 00:43:53,100
that

2775
00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:55,040
the

2776
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:55,520
people

2777
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:55,820
who

2778
00:43:55,820 --> 00:43:56,140
brought

2779
00:43:56,140 --> 00:43:56,360
the

2780
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:56,700
Nazis

2781
00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:57,160
here

2782
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:57,760
had

2783
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:58,140
very

2784
00:43:58,140 --> 00:43:58,740
thick

2785
00:43:58,740 --> 00:43:59,660
skins

2786
00:43:59,660 --> 00:44:00,280
some

2787
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:00,500
of

2788
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:00,700
them

2789
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:01,100
probably

2790
00:44:01,100 --> 00:44:01,780
were

2791
00:44:01,780 --> 00:44:02,640
anti-Semitic

2792
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:03,480
you know

2793
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:03,820
if you

2794
00:44:03,820 --> 00:44:04,560
know

2795
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:04,840
some

2796
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:05,000
of

2797
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:05,180
these

2798
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:05,700
characters

2799
00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:06,500
they may

2800
00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:06,700
have

2801
00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:06,980
been

2802
00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:08,220
you know

2803
00:44:08,220 --> 00:44:09,700
they

2804
00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:09,940
don't

2805
00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:10,200
quite

2806
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:10,560
meet

2807
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:10,880
our

2808
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:11,340
standards

2809
00:44:11,340 --> 00:44:11,560
of

2810
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:11,860
today

2811
00:44:11,860 --> 00:44:13,320
that

2812
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:13,540
I

2813
00:44:13,540 --> 00:44:13,700
think

2814
00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:13,840
is

2815
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:13,960
the

2816
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:14,140
great

2817
00:44:14,140 --> 00:44:14,460
moral

2818
00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:15,000
conundrum

2819
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:15,320
of

2820
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:15,860
paperclip

2821
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:16,060
and

2822
00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:16,260
it's

2823
00:44:16,260 --> 00:44:16,460
why

2824
00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:16,620
the

2825
00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:16,760
book

2826
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:16,920
is

2827
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:17,120
so

2828
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:17,500
long

2829
00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:17,940
because

2830
00:44:17,940 --> 00:44:18,240
I

2831
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:19,160
you

2832
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:19,280
know

2833
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:19,440
I

2834
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:19,900
profile

2835
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:20,220
these

2836
00:44:20,220 --> 00:44:20,820
21

2837
00:44:20,820 --> 00:44:21,580
scientists

2838
00:44:21,580 --> 00:44:22,520
and

2839
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:22,660
I

2840
00:44:22,660 --> 00:44:22,920
try

2841
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:23,080
to

2842
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:23,320
tell

2843
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:23,500
you

2844
00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:23,680
as

2845
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:23,940
much

2846
00:44:23,940 --> 00:44:24,340
about

2847
00:44:24,340 --> 00:44:24,860
each

2848
00:44:24,860 --> 00:44:25,000
of

2849
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:25,140
them

2850
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:25,300
that

2851
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:25,440
I

2852
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:25,620
could

2853
00:44:25,620 --> 00:44:26,020
learn

2854
00:44:26,020 --> 00:44:27,200
starting

2855
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:27,400
with

2856
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:27,540
what

2857
00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:27,640
they

2858
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:27,760
were

2859
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:28,000
doing

2860
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:28,260
during

2861
00:44:28,260 --> 00:44:28,420
the

2862
00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:28,760
war

2863
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:29,540
and

2864
00:44:29,540 --> 00:44:29,740
let

2865
00:44:29,740 --> 00:44:29,960
you

2866
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:30,240
come

2867
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:30,400
to

2868
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:30,600
your

2869
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:31,000
own

2870
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:31,500
conclusion

2871
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:31,820
about

2872
00:44:31,820 --> 00:44:31,980
the

2873
00:44:31,980 --> 00:44:32,380
morality

2874
00:44:32,380 --> 00:44:32,660
of

2875
00:44:32,660 --> 00:44:32,760
it

2876
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:33,000
all

2877
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,220
yes

2878
00:44:34,220 --> 00:44:35,380
two

2879
00:44:35,380 --> 00:44:35,800
simple

2880
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:36,280
questions

2881
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:36,520
one

2882
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:36,780
is

2883
00:44:36,780 --> 00:44:37,280
where

2884
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:37,460
did

2885
00:44:37,460 --> 00:44:38,040
operation

2886
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:38,940
paperclip

2887
00:44:38,940 --> 00:44:39,260
come

2888
00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:39,560
from

2889
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:40,100
that

2890
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:40,420
name

2891
00:44:40,420 --> 00:44:41,500
those

2892
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:41,740
two

2893
00:44:41,740 --> 00:44:42,060
groups

2894
00:44:42,060 --> 00:44:42,200
I

2895
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:42,320
was

2896
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:42,540
telling

2897
00:44:42,540 --> 00:44:42,680
you

2898
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:42,840
about

2899
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:43,560
those

2900
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:43,920
in

2901
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:44,300
Germany

2902
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:44,580
who

2903
00:44:44,580 --> 00:44:44,820
were

2904
00:44:44,820 --> 00:44:46,380
interrogating

2905
00:44:46,380 --> 00:44:46,820
or rather

2906
00:44:46,820 --> 00:44:47,440
interviewing

2907
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:47,680
the

2908
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:47,920
German

2909
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:48,380
scientists

2910
00:44:48,380 --> 00:44:48,700
and

2911
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:49,460
preparing

2912
00:44:49,460 --> 00:44:49,760
them

2913
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:49,920
for

2914
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:50,360
passage

2915
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:50,620
to

2916
00:44:50,620 --> 00:44:50,720
the

2917
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:51,020
United

2918
00:44:51,020 --> 00:44:51,480
States

2919
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,140
some

2920
00:44:52,140 --> 00:44:52,300
of

2921
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:52,480
them

2922
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:52,760
were

2923
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,640
very

2924
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:53,960
much

2925
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:54,340
against

2926
00:44:54,340 --> 00:44:54,540
the

2927
00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:55,020
program

2928
00:44:55,020 --> 00:44:55,980
and

2929
00:44:55,980 --> 00:44:56,720
so

2930
00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:57,300
as

2931
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:57,500
a

2932
00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:57,880
means

2933
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:58,080
to

2934
00:44:58,080 --> 00:44:58,340
kind

2935
00:44:58,340 --> 00:44:58,480
of

2936
00:44:58,480 --> 00:44:58,960
make

2937
00:44:58,960 --> 00:44:59,240
sure

2938
00:44:59,240 --> 00:44:59,460
that

2939
00:44:59,460 --> 00:44:59,620
the

2940
00:44:59,620 --> 00:45:00,060
files

2941
00:45:00,060 --> 00:45:00,320
got

2942
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:00,460
to

2943
00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:00,580
the

2944
00:45:00,580 --> 00:45:00,820
right

2945
00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:01,300
people

2946
00:45:01,300 --> 00:45:02,220
the

2947
00:45:02,220 --> 00:45:02,720
pro

2948
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:03,560
paperclip

2949
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:04,640
officers

2950
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:05,140
intelligence

2951
00:45:05,140 --> 00:45:05,620
officers

2952
00:45:05,620 --> 00:45:05,900
would

2953
00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:06,380
fasten

2954
00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:07,040
a

2955
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:07,540
paperclip

2956
00:45:07,540 --> 00:45:07,640
it

2957
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:07,760
was

2958
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:07,920
not

2959
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:08,120
called

2960
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:08,580
paperclip

2961
00:45:08,580 --> 00:45:08,780
then

2962
00:45:08,780 --> 00:45:08,860
it

2963
00:45:08,860 --> 00:45:08,960
was

2964
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:09,140
called

2965
00:45:09,140 --> 00:45:09,800
overcast

2966
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:10,320
and

2967
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:10,420
they

2968
00:45:10,420 --> 00:45:10,580
would

2969
00:45:10,580 --> 00:45:10,940
fasten

2970
00:45:10,940 --> 00:45:11,120
a

2971
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:11,620
paperclip

2972
00:45:11,620 --> 00:45:11,880
onto

2973
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:12,060
the

2974
00:45:12,060 --> 00:45:12,340
top

2975
00:45:12,340 --> 00:45:12,460
of

2976
00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:12,580
the

2977
00:45:12,580 --> 00:45:12,940
file

2978
00:45:12,940 --> 00:45:13,620
to

2979
00:45:13,620 --> 00:45:13,880
kind

2980
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:14,060
of

2981
00:45:14,060 --> 00:45:14,580
give

2982
00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:14,720
an

2983
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:15,240
indication

2984
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:15,620
this

2985
00:45:15,620 --> 00:45:15,940
file

2986
00:45:15,940 --> 00:45:16,180
should

2987
00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:16,360
go

2988
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:16,520
to

2989
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:16,660
the

2990
00:45:16,660 --> 00:45:16,860
right

2991
00:45:16,860 --> 00:45:17,260
person

2992
00:45:17,260 --> 00:45:17,520
and

2993
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:17,680
that

2994
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:17,800
is

2995
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:17,940
how

2996
00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:18,380
paperclip

2997
00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:18,600
got

2998
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:18,800
its

2999
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:19,080
name

3000
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:20,040
and

3001
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,020
certainly

3002
00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:21,360
the

3003
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:22,920
German

3004
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:23,760
scientists

3005
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:24,440
worked

3006
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:25,600
side

3007
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:25,800
by

3008
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:26,200
side

3009
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:26,480
with

3010
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:26,980
American

3011
00:45:26,980 --> 00:45:27,520
scientists

3012
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:27,860
some

3013
00:45:27,860 --> 00:45:28,260
of whom

3014
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:28,840
probably

3015
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:29,200
fought

3016
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:29,340
in

3017
00:45:29,340 --> 00:45:31,500
the

3018
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:31,740
war

3019
00:45:31,740 --> 00:45:33,420
what was their reaction to working with a former Nazi

3020
00:45:33,420 --> 00:45:35,520
Yes I mean that's an interesting question

3021
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:36,340
some of them were Jewish

3022
00:45:36,340 --> 00:45:36,840
I invented

3023
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,140
I interviewed a lot of these scientists

3024
00:45:39,140 --> 00:45:41,180
for my earlier book Area 51

3025
00:45:41,180 --> 00:45:46,380
and the idea was that these were the good German scientists

3026
00:45:46,380 --> 00:45:50,160
and you know on average on balance

3027
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,080
there would be no reason why you would not believe your government

3028
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,540
when they were that you worked for

3029
00:45:55,540 --> 00:45:57,000
when they told you that

3030
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:02,220
so the joint chiefs knew about the truth behind the real information

3031
00:46:02,220 --> 00:46:06,020
but very few people outside of that inner circle really knew

3032
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:07,620
Thank you

3033
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:11,400
Actually that's a really good segue into my question

3034
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:16,380
your last book was actually criticized a little bit for having some fact checking

3035
00:46:16,380 --> 00:46:21,760
issues and I was curious you know what kind of efforts you made to maybe do a bit

3036
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,620
better for this for your latest book

3037
00:46:23,620 --> 00:46:28,560
Well I don't know specifically what what you're referring to about the fact checking

3038
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:34,960
but what I did for this book as I do for all of my research is source things in the

3039
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:41,640
back of the book the book is almost 600 pages and I think the last 110 or so are foot

3040
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:48,100
footnotes and I did that in Area 51 as well so that other researchers can look at

3041
00:46:48,100 --> 00:46:53,000
those notes and then of course use that as a means to do their own research

3042
00:46:53,000 --> 00:47:01,320
Sure but I mean I've read your last book and despite the you know large number of footnotes

3043
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,780
I mean there's still things where you say you know Curtis LeMay was the one responsible for

3044
00:47:04,780 --> 00:47:10,800
not the decision not to bomb on the Bay of Pigs and I'm just curious if you've made an extra effort

3045
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,560
on this one over your last book

3046
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:21,360
I think the standard is always the same that as a journalist you do your best to to work hard to

3047
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,200
make sure that the facts are specific and tie those two footnotes

3048
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:39,520
Hi I'm wondering if you could envision an alternative history for a moment and answer one of the questions

3049
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:47,920
that you posed which was did we really need these scientists so can you imagine what would have

3050
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:56,320
happened if these guys had been prosecuted and never came to the United States to build this thing

3051
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:07,200
and and and in other words does the end justify the means um for that question you know I I like to

3052
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:14,640
interview current members of the US military because they're always the ones that remind me in an

3053
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:20,720
important way that as a journalist I'm never the one in the position of making national security

3054
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:28,080
decisions and so it's almost impossible to imagine that situation because the the people who were in

3055
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:35,840
charge of paperclip the joint chiefs and their staff were in that critical position of believing the

3056
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,400
intelligence that they were getting that the soviet union was preparing for total war and that we

3057
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:46,320
too needed to prepare for that so one would never want to stand on a pedestal and wag the finger back

3058
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:53,200
at history that's something I'm I'm always reminded and um and I do try to need hundreds of these

3059
00:48:53,200 --> 00:49:05,760
scientists would five of them thank you yeah yes yes um your book treats uh 21 uh special cases

3060
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:12,480
the the the most notorious probably of the of the group did you get any sense of what the nature my

3061
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:21,120
my grandfather was one of the uh less prominent paperclip scientists and he was a physical chemist

3062
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:27,040
to my knowledge he was not a war criminal but does your book talk about how the large majority of them

3063
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:34,000
were just actually good scientists or or well I would have no way of knowing if they were good scientists

3064
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:39,840
because I didn't look at their case their specific cases I understand these 21 were outrageous but um

3065
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:49,280
most of the relatives of the other uh 1519 are running around like me and and could tell you something

3066
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:58,000
about about those people I mean yeah I I you I would say you would need to research your own family history to

3067
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,920
really know for yourself what went on during the war I mean the best example I can give you is

3068
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:12,800
Sheber's son um claimed to have no idea that his father was on Himmler's personal staff

3069
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:21,680
um it's not exactly dinner conversation after the war and so I don't know I mean but interestingly

3070
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:28,800
at every one of my readings as I said there has been someone who has been either a child or a

3071
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:34,960
grandchild of a of one of the scientists who came here on paperclip so no doubt there are other stories

3072
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:40,080
to be told well they were the propaganda worked because my grandfather's family was treated very

3073
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:47,920
well in Tennessee where they were relocated and um uh and he was given a later an institute at a

3074
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:55,600
university and and he had a he had a good career here in America he was more than 50 when he was brought

3075
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:03,520
over and he worked until he was 88 and uh published and and so forth and and uh I mean

3076
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:10,000
obviously to sell a book you have to focus on the most outrageous part of it but I'm just I'm just

3077
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:16,000
wondering if at any point in the book you you talk about this this this bigger picture well I do talk

3078
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:21,280
about the bigger picture but I'll give you another example Kneemeyer his grandson and I have this

3079
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:27,760
conversation often because Kneemeyer was Goering's right-hand man so the immediate rush to judgment so to

3080
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:34,720
speak would be how horrible but what the grandson and I discuss is you know his Dirk is his name and

3081
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:43,920
his position is you know my grandfather was an engineer and he's been called guilty by association

3082
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:52,400
so I understand and empathize with how complicated an individual story is um but the reason that I

3083
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:58,240
focused on these 21 was because I found them the most interesting and also because I could access

3084
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:07,600
their information um another interesting postscript is that I had the son of one of these not mentioned

3085
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:18,000
in your book uh on my faculty um he had a PhD from from uh Berkeley and in his 40s he decided he wanted

3086
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:25,440
to go back and go to medical school and he went back to the University of Ulm which took him as an

3087
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:32,640
overseas German um I found the whole thing I told him I thought he was crazy uh at this at that point

3088
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:40,400
in his life to have done this um but you know they they considered him German he clearly was on an American

3089
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:47,760
passport and had gone and been educated here thank you for sharing that yeah anyone else yeah yeah I

3090
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:54,800
just wanted to share an observation also you were giving the figures about denazification and what it

3091
00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:05,040
came down to and uh I certainly see the moral concerns involved on the other hand uh I've worked in Iraq

3092
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:16,000
and in Iraq uh uh with much less justification I think in many ways as you probably know they dismissed all of

3093
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:24,880
the civil servants who'd been by party members even though that was basically a requirement and it hugely uh

3094
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:33,200
uh uh it was a great blow to the government and they dismissed all of the army and dismissing everyone

3095
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:44,240
with guns is even more questionable so I don't know I guess well what has our moral judgment gotten better

3096
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:50,720
or is the answer somewhere in between I think you're bringing up a great point which is that always

3097
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:57,520
in war there are these issues and we saw it then and we see it now and interestingly all of those one

3098
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:04,480
of the first things that the one group of U.S. Army intelligence officers did in Iraq was capture all of

3099
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:11,280
Saddam's documents because and you probably know this and they're now at the Hoover Institute and Iraq says

3100
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:17,040
well we want our documents back but we're not going to give them back because out of the fear that what

3101
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:26,480
is in those documents shows who snitched on who and who was hung um and there again is the same moral

3102
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:34,400
conundrum who owns those documents who gets to be in charge of their own past so two more questions

3103
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:42,320
yes yes yeah do you have any idea why the the Germans the the nuclear scientists could not get

3104
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:48,080
the atom bomb I mean that a lot has been written about it and I would encourage you to read those

3105
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:53,680
books but the what little I touched upon because of course Alsace learned quickly that that program was

3106
00:54:53,680 --> 00:55:00,160
not advanced and I think in summation that the the idea that Hitler thought it was Jewish scientist

3107
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:06,480
Jewish science really kept that program from blossoming the way that their chemical weapons

3108
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:13,040
program I mean they had enormous caches of chemical weapons that we came upon you know bombs that were

3109
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:19,920
supposed to be dropped by the Luftwaffe loaded with sarin gas bunkers full of them hundreds of tons of

3110
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:27,360
this why these chemical weapons were not used remains a great mystery um but that atomic bomb issue is

3111
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,560
really many people have written about that and it's sort of the great mysterious good fortune that

3112
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:40,960
that program did not advance thank you yes i wonder if you if you could elaborate on what still mystifies

3113
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:49,280
me is the most mystifying thing you've said and that these german scientists working side by side with

3114
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:57,200
highly educated uh people who grew up in in world war ii when we were brought to up to believe

3115
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:05,200
that there was no such a thing as a good german and and yet the and and yet they didn't suspect that

3116
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:13,600
these people who were also educated and also knew a great deal of science and also presumably worked in

3117
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:22,160
science in germany where they was not one person suspicious enough to say this these cannot be good

3118
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:30,080
germans who just uh lived in a cave during world war ii yes and i think that that is where the the

3119
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:37,360
u.s army in particular became complicit in that idea because they really helped promote that fiction

3120
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:43,280
and i think that if there's one thing i really sought out to do and i hope i did do with this book

3121
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:57,280
is help reconcile the past in terms of the fiction versus the facts thank you