1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 The Joe Rogan Experience. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,080 Did you get a chance to look at that chaos book that I told you about? 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:08,080 Yeah. 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:13,980 Tom O'Neill, who is a friend of my good friend, Greg Fitzhimmons, wrote an insane... 5 00:00:13,980 --> 00:00:21,839 took him 20 years about Manson and the CIA and LSD and what did you think about all... 6 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:27,240 Well, you've touched on some, I mean, it's, or Tom touched on some really interesting 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:28,240 things. 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:37,839 What I liked about his book, and I went through it, I read it, is that he's actual... 9 00:00:37,839 --> 00:00:43,000 very honest about the shortcomings of what he ended up doing and the research that he 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,399 went through and where he couldn't draw connections. 11 00:00:46,399 --> 00:00:47,519 So I give him a lot of credit. 12 00:00:47,519 --> 00:00:55,320 I think it's well worth the read and it's a hell of a, just a personal story that it 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,000 took him this fucking long, right, to make his way through with a variety of reasons. 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,600 But yeah. 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,719 Luckily, it's been a tremendous success. 16 00:01:04,719 --> 00:01:05,719 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17 00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:06,719 Yeah. 18 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:11,480 I mean, it's really, he sold out almost immediately and the paperbacks are sold ou... 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,480 I mean, he's, I think, reprinting it. 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,480 Well look, Manson is a huge draw, right? 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:20,920 It is that, but it's also, it's a fantastic account of all the things that happened with 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:26,320 the Manson family and all those people that were alive back then about how this guy kept 23 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:27,320 getting out of jail. 24 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:30,799 And they kept arresting him and they kept saying, this is above my pay grade, and they 25 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:31,799 would let him out. 26 00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:32,799 Yeah. 27 00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:35,599 And that's, for me, that's the strangest part about the whole story, right? 28 00:01:35,599 --> 00:01:41,320 I mean, I, you know, this idea that, you know, was Manson, you know, a lab rat for ... 29 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:45,520 and, you know, how far down that rabbit hole do you want to go? 30 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,680 Well, O'Neill is pretty clear about that, right? 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,000 That's not a particularly solid connection. 32 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:58,320 It's a tenuous connection, I think he called it, between one of what used to be a... 33 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,840 a researcher for that old chestnut, MKUltra. 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:03,840 Jolly West. 35 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:05,560 Yeah, yeah, Jolly West, yeah. 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,080 What did you think about all that? 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,480 Like, I'm sure you know about Operation Midnight Climax and all the stuff that's... 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:12,480 true. 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:13,480 Yeah, I don't know. 40 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:14,920 It'd be interesting to know how many people are aware. 41 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:17,400 I mean, I know some people that, you know, that's what they do. 42 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:18,960 Operation Midnight Climax. 43 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:25,840 Operation Midnight Climax was a CIA-funded program where they dosed up Johns, they... 44 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:32,800 brothels and dosed up Johns with LSD against their knowledge and without their knowledge 45 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,960 and let them fornicate and have a good old time with these ladies of the evening. 46 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:38,960 Man, my God. 47 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,040 And watch them and film them and study them. 48 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,159 I know, and when you say it that way, I'm in if you want money to produce that movie, 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,199 But it's, it is actually, yeah, it's true. 50 00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:54,359 Look, you have to, it fell under the sort of umbrella of this MKUltra, which is public 51 00:02:54,359 --> 00:02:55,359 knowledge. 52 00:02:55,359 --> 00:02:57,479 I'm not, you know, obviously we're not talking about a term. 53 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:00,000 Let's also give them the benefit of the doubt. 54 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,000 When LSD was synthesized by Albert Hoffman, they really needed to figure out what the 55 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,359 fuck this was. 56 00:03:06,359 --> 00:03:10,120 And they needed to figure out like, could this be used against Americans? 57 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,199 Could this be used against the president? 58 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:13,199 What is this? 59 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:14,199 Is this a truth serum? 60 00:03:14,239 --> 00:03:15,239 What are the benefits? 61 00:03:15,239 --> 00:03:16,239 What's the pros and cons? 62 00:03:16,239 --> 00:03:18,239 And what are the dangers of this stuff? 63 00:03:18,239 --> 00:03:20,560 Well, that's a national security angle. 64 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,199 It's very important that they did study it. 65 00:03:22,199 --> 00:03:23,199 Right. 66 00:03:23,199 --> 00:03:26,199 And so from context, and again, we talked about that towards the beginning is, you 67 00:03:26,199 --> 00:03:27,919 know, which something we don't normally do. 68 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:28,919 Right. 69 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,120 So you were judging people from history now under the, and so we're not using context 70 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,319 of what was the, what were the conditions? 71 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:37,639 We're talking about the 1950s, the 1960s. 72 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:39,359 Well, yeah, late forties. 73 00:03:39,359 --> 00:03:40,719 I mean, so, so what have you got? 74 00:03:40,719 --> 00:03:42,560 You got the, the end of the World War II. 75 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:44,319 You got the Cold War. 76 00:03:44,319 --> 00:03:45,319 It's the late forties. 77 00:03:45,319 --> 00:03:55,120 You've got the Soviet Union that is heavily invested in, in a variety of experiments. 78 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,840 Mind control, brainwashing was the sort of the term of the culture. 79 00:03:58,840 --> 00:03:59,840 Right. 80 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,680 And brainwashing was a big issue. 81 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,480 Not a big issue, but it was, it captured people's imagination back then. 82 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,120 So the late forties, early fifties, it was Korean War. 83 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:10,759 Yeah. 84 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:12,000 We had an existential threat. 85 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Right. 86 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,000 We had nukes pointing at each other. 87 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,519 We had, you know, drills in schools, kids hiding under desks. 88 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:17,600 I mean, what the fuck? 89 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:27,720 So with the fear that the Chinese or the Soviets were going to develop mind control... 90 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,839 was pervasive. 91 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,079 And it's sound, you know, you talk about it now and everybody rolls their eyes and goes, 92 00:04:33,079 --> 00:04:36,560 oh my God, but you're absolutely right that you have to understand the context with which 93 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,319 Alan Dulles, who was the, at the time, the director of the CIA. 94 00:04:42,319 --> 00:04:47,560 By the way, the guy who Kennedy fired and wound up being a part of the Warren... 95 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,639 after Kennedy was murdered, which was very strange. 96 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:51,639 Yeah. 97 00:04:51,639 --> 00:04:53,800 Oh, I like that. 98 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,800 Like where that could go. 99 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:09,199 So anyway, we got, we got Alan Dulles, who in 53, early in 53 says, all right, we have 100 00:05:09,199 --> 00:05:13,600 to understand what the, what the, the Soviets are doing, particularly the Soviets. 101 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,439 But we also had, you know, again, I'm sure some folks listening know all this, but a 102 00:05:18,439 --> 00:05:20,120 lot of folks probably don't. 103 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,759 We had POWs returning, American POWs returning from Korea. 104 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:24,840 That was a big issue, right? 105 00:05:24,879 --> 00:05:29,519 Because some of them came back again, quote unquote, brainwashed, you know, and some of 106 00:05:29,519 --> 00:05:34,199 them didn't want to return because, you know, again, brainwashing, you know, mind control 107 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:37,679 that, you know, perhaps the Chinese had developed these techniques. 108 00:05:37,679 --> 00:05:40,359 So initially the idea was defensive. 109 00:05:40,359 --> 00:05:44,239 How do we protect ourselves against this new threat within this cold war against these 110 00:05:44,239 --> 00:05:48,559 enemies who appear to be devoting great deal of resources against this? 111 00:05:48,559 --> 00:05:51,599 Well, so initially it started out as a defensive effort. 112 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:59,040 MKUltra was the umbrella name for a whole bunch of over 140 projects, sub projects 113 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,080 underneath MKUltra. 114 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:08,560 And it was all based around chemical substances, use of chemicals, use of drugs... 115 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:18,160 issues with human beings, creating false memories, deleting memory, influencing the... 116 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:19,160 again, of individuals. 117 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,439 There were a variety of projects that fell under this MKUltra. 118 00:06:24,439 --> 00:06:29,080 And it was, again, starting out as a defensive issue, but then quickly became s... 119 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,080 offense. 120 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,400 How do we how do we become the leader in all of this, which is typical, right? 121 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,280 It's typical on how things develop. 122 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:36,280 It's like cyber warfare. 123 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:37,960 You know, initially it's defensive. 124 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,960 And now you think, OK, now we got to figure out how to make it work on our behalf. 125 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,480 And sometimes it's important, like when they shut down the Iran nuclear program. 126 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:46,480 Yeah. 127 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,800 With a virus, essentially a computer virus. 128 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:49,960 Absolutely. 129 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:57,879 And where this went off the rails in a handful of ways, in many ways, was testing... 130 00:06:57,879 --> 00:07:02,120 subjects, things such as LSD and a variety of other substances. 131 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:03,120 Yeah. 132 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:04,120 Whoops. 133 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:10,600 And those subjects, unwitting subjects, ranged everything from in federal prisons ... 134 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:11,600 mental hospitals. 135 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,439 And that's where Manson comes in. 136 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:22,560 And that's where Manson comes in and a variety of other people who it's just it's... 137 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,279 would recommend people dig in. 138 00:07:24,279 --> 00:07:29,639 Don't, you know, don't settle on just one account. 139 00:07:29,639 --> 00:07:34,279 And one of the things that people should also do if they want to read about this is read 140 00:07:34,279 --> 00:07:36,560 any testimony that came out of the CIA. 141 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:37,560 And there was some testimony. 142 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,800 There were there was documents written by the inspector general back in 50. 143 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:49,120 And this this time period was about 53 through at least officially acknowledged 6... 144 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,040 And then the program was wrapped up. 145 00:07:52,040 --> 00:08:02,220 Supposedly there were still federal programs, military programs, others that were still 146 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:10,860 looking into issues related to the use of chemical substances for everything again 147 00:08:10,860 --> 00:08:17,380 from interrogation to behavioral adjustment. 148 00:08:17,380 --> 00:08:22,100 And a lot of these things were funded through cutouts. 149 00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:30,340 So you'd set up again, this is, you know, early 50s, mid 50s, early 60s, set up... 150 00:08:30,339 --> 00:08:39,899 vehicles through, say, what appear to be non-threatening grant programs from research 151 00:08:39,899 --> 00:08:40,899 institutes. 152 00:08:40,899 --> 00:08:45,179 So you'd you'd you'd loop in academic institutions or researchers. 153 00:08:45,179 --> 00:08:53,860 And MKUltra had at least acknowledged anyway over 80 academic institutions and others that 154 00:08:54,860 --> 00:09:00,820 or unwittingly working on their behalf in various research programs. 155 00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:06,259 So yeah, this this Midnight Climax program, basically, they'd they'd kid out a safe house 156 00:09:06,259 --> 00:09:15,220 as a brothel and they would have the hookers slip LSD or whatever substance to the to the 157 00:09:15,220 --> 00:09:22,019 Johns and then behind a mirror, you'd have a supposed to like a researcher, right? 158 00:09:22,179 --> 00:09:25,819 I mean, this is where it got weird sitting there, you know, having a drink and watching 159 00:09:25,819 --> 00:09:28,779 these, you know, the hooker and the John have sex. 160 00:09:28,779 --> 00:09:32,819 And then they'd be analyzing the impact of the LSD on them in terms of their ability 161 00:09:32,819 --> 00:09:33,819 to talk. 162 00:09:33,819 --> 00:09:35,860 And and would they was the hooker in on it? 163 00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:37,220 Yeah, the hooker was in on it. 164 00:09:37,220 --> 00:09:38,899 And we see an employee of the CIA. 165 00:09:38,899 --> 00:09:43,379 You know, you know, and it was it wasn't just the agency, you know, like the army was... 166 00:09:43,379 --> 00:09:44,740 in these things as well. 167 00:09:44,980 --> 00:09:54,060 But they would get cash payments and oftentimes the get out of jail, get out of... 168 00:09:54,060 --> 00:09:55,060 card. 169 00:09:55,060 --> 00:09:56,060 You know what? 170 00:09:56,060 --> 00:10:01,940 Ladies, if you're out there, if you're out there, listen to me, come on, whatever you 171 00:10:01,940 --> 00:10:02,940 need, come forward. 172 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:03,940 I'm here for you. 173 00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:04,940 But there was a show. 174 00:10:04,940 --> 00:10:05,940 There was talk. 175 00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:07,940 You could wear a Boba Fett mask. 176 00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:09,940 We'll hide your identity. 177 00:10:10,460 --> 00:10:11,460 Why? 178 00:10:11,460 --> 00:10:12,700 But I mean, just imagine. 179 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:14,220 I mean, so it's OK. 180 00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:19,300 So this was clearly, you know, clearly was off the rails. 181 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:20,300 Right. 182 00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:24,140 And they had one of the guys that was involved in this. 183 00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:27,540 He was with what used to be called the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. 184 00:10:27,540 --> 00:10:35,180 A guy named White, George White, was, you know, involved in like the San Francisco cat 185 00:10:35,180 --> 00:10:36,180 house. 186 00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:39,180 And, you know, according to the stories, he'd sit there, you know, with a martini in his 187 00:10:39,179 --> 00:10:41,259 hand and watch the couple have sex. 188 00:10:41,259 --> 00:10:45,659 And then he and he would have like prepped the hooker to say, OK, after sex, now this 189 00:10:45,659 --> 00:10:47,699 appears to be the best time to get them talking. 190 00:10:47,699 --> 00:10:50,699 So ask them about their job and let's see if they'll talk about their job. 191 00:10:50,699 --> 00:10:57,379 The idea being, could we influence and like entrap potential assets overseas for... 192 00:10:57,379 --> 00:10:58,379 reasons? 193 00:10:58,379 --> 00:11:01,159 You know, was there some use, you know, for operational purposes? 194 00:11:01,159 --> 00:11:04,899 But basically, it was just, you know, George getting his rocks off watching couples having 195 00:11:04,899 --> 00:11:09,139 sex and, you know, very, very strange shit. 196 00:11:09,980 --> 00:11:11,860 But you're right in that. 197 00:11:11,860 --> 00:11:14,299 And so, again, this went on until 64. 198 00:11:14,299 --> 00:11:20,860 MKUltra, interestingly enough, not to spend too much time on it, but Richard Helms was 199 00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:25,580 the director at the time in the early 70s. 200 00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:30,460 And he and a guy named Gottlieb, Sidney Gottlieb, who was the head of technical... 201 00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:35,740 the agency, they agreed that the smart thing to do in 73 before Richard Helms left and 202 00:11:35,740 --> 00:11:39,299 Gottlieb left the agency was to destroy all the records. 203 00:11:39,299 --> 00:11:46,299 So they purged all the records of MKUltra that they thought existed. 204 00:11:46,299 --> 00:11:50,379 This was investigated in the church committee back in 75. 205 00:11:50,379 --> 00:11:57,460 And then 76, I think it was, they found a bunch of financial records, you know, that 206 00:11:57,460 --> 00:12:02,860 had not been purged because they had been kept, you know, audits of, and again, you're 207 00:12:02,860 --> 00:12:05,820 talking about like 149 sub-projects of MKUltra. 208 00:12:05,820 --> 00:12:09,220 So you can imagine each sub-project has its own accounting and you've got to turn in 209 00:12:09,220 --> 00:12:12,700 your receipts for the LSD that you bought or the hooker you paid off or whatever, you 210 00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:13,700 know, so here's my receipt. 211 00:12:13,700 --> 00:12:17,419 Can I have my $12 or whatever you paid for a hooker back then. 212 00:12:17,419 --> 00:12:25,100 And so, probably not 12 bucks, but they found some financial records. 213 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:32,060 And so that became then a matter of another investigation up on the Hill. 214 00:12:32,059 --> 00:12:38,299 And Stansfield Turner, the time the CIA director testified at that point, and that... 215 00:12:38,299 --> 00:12:44,339 brought my laptop is because Stansfield Turner's testimony is actually pretty... 216 00:12:44,339 --> 00:12:45,739 far as MKUltra goes. 217 00:12:45,739 --> 00:12:51,539 And he talks about, we've attempted to group the activities covered by the 149... 218 00:12:51,539 --> 00:12:55,359 into categories under descriptive headings, wouldn't you? 219 00:12:55,359 --> 00:12:59,859 In broad outline at least, this presents the contents of these files. 220 00:12:59,860 --> 00:13:04,820 The headings of the categories of all these various projects that ran under MKUltra, 221 00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:09,580 and this gives you a pretty good quick sense of what they were doing at the time, research 222 00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:12,419 into the effects of behavioral drugs and or alcohol. 223 00:13:12,419 --> 00:13:16,379 There were 17 sub-projects probably not involving human testing. 224 00:13:16,379 --> 00:13:19,899 This is a testimony from the director of the CIA, Stansfield Turner. 225 00:13:19,899 --> 00:13:23,860 14 sub-projects definitely involving tests on human volunteers. 226 00:13:24,860 --> 00:13:28,980 19 sub-projects probably including tests on human volunteers. 227 00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:32,960 While not known, some of these sub-projects may have included tests on unwitting subjects 228 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:33,960 as well. 229 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:34,960 While not known? 230 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:35,960 While not known. 231 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,919 And then six sub-projects, definitely involving tests on unwitting subjects. 232 00:13:40,919 --> 00:13:47,060 Research on hypnosis, acquisition of chemicals or drugs, aspects of magician's... 233 00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:48,060 No. 234 00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:49,060 What? 235 00:13:49,060 --> 00:13:50,060 Magicians' art? 236 00:13:50,060 --> 00:13:51,060 Yeah. 237 00:13:51,060 --> 00:13:52,060 Yeah, like slipping them a Mickey or something. 238 00:13:52,259 --> 00:13:53,259 How do you do that? 239 00:13:53,259 --> 00:13:55,500 Sleight of hand. 240 00:13:55,500 --> 00:14:01,500 Studies of human behavior, sleep research, behavioral changes during psychotherapy, 241 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:05,539 motivational studies, studies of defectors, assessment and training techniques, polygraph 242 00:14:05,539 --> 00:14:12,699 research, funding mechanisms for MKUltra external research activities, research on... 243 00:14:12,699 --> 00:14:15,819 and biologicals in human tissue. 244 00:14:15,819 --> 00:14:19,299 Activities whose sub-objectives cannot be determined from available documentation. 245 00:14:19,299 --> 00:14:21,199 Anyway, it goes on. 246 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,080 But it gives you a sense of what the hell was happening during this period of time. 247 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,240 But again, this doesn't justify it. 248 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,379 Obviously it doesn't. 249 00:14:28,379 --> 00:14:32,860 But you're absolutely right that to have a full understanding of this, you have to look 250 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:37,440 at the context of where we were at that time. 251 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:44,440 And where we were was smack dab in the height and elevation of the Cold War. 252 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:50,160 Knowing that our adversaries, our existential threats were engaged in this sort of... 253 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,679 Now, George White was not really a researcher or anything. 254 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:58,279 He would just sit behind a mirror watching some people get off. 255 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:00,439 And all the unwitting subjects involved. 256 00:15:00,439 --> 00:15:05,959 But look, they were slipping LSD to agency employees without telling them. 257 00:15:05,959 --> 00:15:06,959 Really? 258 00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:07,959 Yeah, oh yeah. 259 00:15:07,959 --> 00:15:08,959 Yeah. 260 00:15:08,959 --> 00:15:09,959 And it's just... 261 00:15:09,959 --> 00:15:10,959 Yeah. 262 00:15:10,959 --> 00:15:16,720 It's not that long ago, but we have to think about it in terms of the same way we thought 263 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,919 about Abraham Lincoln. 264 00:15:20,199 --> 00:15:23,799 In the context of the times, this wasn't such a horrendous thing to do. 265 00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:26,079 They didn't know any better. 266 00:15:26,079 --> 00:15:30,199 They didn't know what these substances would do to people. 267 00:15:30,199 --> 00:15:32,479 And there wasn't a lot of ways to find out. 268 00:15:32,479 --> 00:15:37,079 The Harvard LSD studies that they did that they believe in part were responsible for 269 00:15:37,079 --> 00:15:38,079 the Unabomber. 270 00:15:38,079 --> 00:15:42,399 There's a lot of other shit that was responsible for the Unabomber, including... 271 00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:43,959 his childhood. 272 00:15:43,959 --> 00:15:48,959 But they did a lot of these studies because they didn't know. 273 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,360 It's one way to find out. 274 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,400 How do you get responsible human subjects? 275 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,000 How do you get people to do... 276 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,160 There's not a lot of ways other than just test people. 277 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:05,920 And unfortunately, yeah, what this ended up being was using the most marginalized people 278 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,720 out there, like sex workers or prisoners or whatever. 279 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:10,720 Or Johns. 280 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:11,720 Yeah, Johns. 281 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,120 But that whole thing. 282 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:21,080 Where Tom O'Neill's book is really interesting in a couple of ways is if you... 283 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,480 So MKUltra kind of finished up in 64 officially. 284 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,799 That's when the Inspector General came out from the agency and said, you got to know. 285 00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:30,799 You can't do this. 286 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:34,100 They had a new Inspector General and they looked and said, this is clearly not where 287 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:36,899 we are supposed to be. 288 00:16:36,899 --> 00:16:43,459 But interestingly, funding mechanisms that were used to, again, to dole out grants or 289 00:16:43,459 --> 00:16:48,899 to provide a cutout between government and research that was being done, did some of 290 00:16:48,899 --> 00:16:53,980 those continue to exist for other programs, other research? 291 00:16:53,980 --> 00:17:01,819 And in 67, you have the Summer of Love, San Francisco. 292 00:17:01,819 --> 00:17:03,220 And Tom O'Neill writes about this. 293 00:17:03,220 --> 00:17:04,259 And it's very, very interesting. 294 00:17:04,259 --> 00:17:13,619 You had the Haight-Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, which in part was running a couple... 295 00:17:13,619 --> 00:17:19,099 that were supposedly getting funding from the National Institute for Mental Health, 296 00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:25,140 which had previously been a funding mechanism also for MKUltra a few years in the past. 297 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:31,420 And Roger Smith was a guy who was getting his PhD in criminology. 298 00:17:31,420 --> 00:17:34,539 He was working at the Haight-Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. 299 00:17:34,539 --> 00:17:38,539 And he was also Manson's parole officer. 300 00:17:38,539 --> 00:17:46,300 And to your point, Manson was like a brook trout or a rainbow trout that is in some 301 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:48,100 catch and release stream, right? 302 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:51,779 He was constantly arrested during the 67, 68 period. 303 00:17:51,779 --> 00:17:59,620 And remember, the killings happened in August of 69. 304 00:18:00,619 --> 00:18:02,379 He kept getting released. 305 00:18:02,379 --> 00:18:04,619 And he had been in prison, right? 306 00:18:04,619 --> 00:18:08,299 In 67, early in that year, he'd been released from prison. 307 00:18:08,299 --> 00:18:10,339 So he was on probation. 308 00:18:10,339 --> 00:18:14,659 Any violation, certainly some of the things he was getting arrested for, should have 309 00:18:14,659 --> 00:18:16,619 sent him back to prison, but he wasn't. 310 00:18:16,619 --> 00:18:22,059 So that to me is one of the most interesting parts of the book, is this revolving door 311 00:18:22,059 --> 00:18:23,500 that Manson was in. 312 00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:27,259 And eventually we all know what happened to him. 313 00:18:27,619 --> 00:18:32,019 Working at the Haight-Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, that's where Manson would go, along 314 00:18:32,019 --> 00:18:34,019 with some of his followers. 315 00:18:34,019 --> 00:18:41,500 They were part of a study and they were, I'm sure, getting their LSD from there. 316 00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:48,420 Also this guy, Jolly West, who was involved in MKUltra, also ended up having an office 317 00:18:48,420 --> 00:18:50,700 at the Haight-Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. 318 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:51,900 But again, to Tom O'Neill's point- 319 00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:56,299 Do you know that clinic closed down about four months after Tom's book came out? 320 00:18:56,339 --> 00:18:57,779 It's been open for over 50 years. 321 00:18:57,779 --> 00:18:58,779 It's crazy. 322 00:18:58,779 --> 00:18:59,779 What are the odds? 323 00:18:59,779 --> 00:19:00,779 I know, what are the odds? 324 00:19:00,779 --> 00:19:02,779 I didn't see that coming. 325 00:19:02,779 --> 00:19:11,539 Yeah, but again, I like the book because he does seem to be trying to let the facts of 326 00:19:11,539 --> 00:19:16,740 all his research lead the way, rather than trying to prove a point that he comes up with 327 00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:17,940 at the beginning of his book. 328 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:23,139 Well, he also exposed the prosecutor, Bugliosi, and all the issues that was goin... 329 00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:30,620 led to him wanting to follow the narrative that they had laid out, that Manson was... 330 00:19:30,620 --> 00:19:38,860 to incite a race war and ignore all the other indicators that there was some deeper... 331 00:19:38,860 --> 00:19:45,100 And yeah, was Manson, was he an informer for the Bureau or for local law enforcement or 332 00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:46,100 some other outfit? 333 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:47,100 You know, that's- 334 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:48,100 Hard to tell. 335 00:19:49,059 --> 00:19:55,980 Hard to tell, but it's compelling in light of the fact that he kept getting released. 336 00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:58,099 He seemed to have a get out of jail free card. 337 00:19:58,099 --> 00:20:01,419 He also seemed to have an unlimited supply of acid. 338 00:20:01,419 --> 00:20:02,579 That was what's fascinating. 339 00:20:02,579 --> 00:20:07,619 And he also seemed to employ the same techniques that apparently the CIA had... 340 00:20:07,619 --> 00:20:12,539 they had done experiments on prisoners, including the fact that he would, you know... 341 00:20:12,539 --> 00:20:18,220 into weird sexual situations and pretend to take LSD himself but not really participate 342 00:20:18,220 --> 00:20:20,259 and then, you know, influence them. 343 00:20:20,259 --> 00:20:24,819 And he seemed to be doing things to them in terms of like trying to alter their behavior 344 00:20:24,819 --> 00:20:27,899 and getting them to do things that were outside the norm, including murder. 345 00:20:27,899 --> 00:20:28,899 Yeah. 346 00:20:28,899 --> 00:20:34,339 I mean, did he see, yeah, did he have a sense from his time there at the clinic or dealing 347 00:20:34,339 --> 00:20:39,259 with what's his name, Roger Smith, his parole officer, who again was also a criminology 348 00:20:39,259 --> 00:20:41,779 doctor, a doctoral candidate, I guess. 349 00:20:41,779 --> 00:20:46,700 And so was, you know, but Manson was, you know, he was not a rocket scientist. 350 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:51,420 He was illiterate for the most part, right, until he ended up in prison and maybe. 351 00:20:51,420 --> 00:20:55,220 Which is why it was so weird that he was able to manipulate so many people so well. 352 00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:56,220 Right. 353 00:20:56,220 --> 00:21:00,740 But it was also, it's like what, he was the perfect guinea pig. 354 00:21:00,740 --> 00:21:05,259 I mean, you're talking about a guy who spent half his life in federal penitentiaries. 355 00:21:05,259 --> 00:21:08,420 Yeah, yeah. 356 00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:13,380 And also, putting it in context of the time, what else did you have going on? 357 00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:18,300 You had sort of this, again, this awareness of the impact of LSD on the counterculture, 358 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:19,300 right? 359 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:23,580 So you had federal agencies like the Bureau, for example, worrying about, oh my God,... 360 00:21:23,580 --> 00:21:27,300 the, you know, what are these hippies going to do next? 361 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:31,400 And you know, they were worried obviously about the Black Panthers, but it was also 362 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,400 more than that. 363 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:33,400 It was the, again, the. 364 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:34,400 Anti-war movement. 365 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:35,400 Yeah. 366 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,640 And it was also the general counterculture and the impact of drugs on it. 367 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,000 So it's a fascinating, I think it's a very interesting read, and I think it's worth 368 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,360 the read because, again, he's spent so much time trying to make his way through and get 369 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:48,360 this book. 370 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:49,360 Twenty years. 371 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:50,360 Yeah. 372 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:52,960 It's a crazy story, and if you haven't heard the podcast, please listen to it with Tom 373 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:53,960 O'Neill.