1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:23,600 Yes, well, as we get older and older, I'm 77 right now, you can't live forever, you know, so if this procedure I'm going to have to clean the blood doesn't work, 2 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:41,800 then I've got probably a few more months to make it before my kidneys shut down, you know, so that's kind of why I'm kind of going along with the interview at this time. 3 00:00:42,580 --> 00:00:46,920 You're seeing that what you went through is just too important for people not to know about. 4 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:47,520 Yeah. 5 00:00:48,620 --> 00:00:49,140 Yeah. 6 00:00:49,140 --> 00:00:58,960 Can you just, can we start at the beginning with your military career and just walk through what exactly your experiences were? 7 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:06,700 I was drafted into the military and got into the U.S. Army. 8 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:15,680 After that, I was sent to the Signal Training Center in eastern United States. 9 00:01:16,100 --> 00:01:17,420 What year would this be? 10 00:01:17,420 --> 00:01:22,360 In 1958, I went through the Signal Training course. 11 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:33,880 And at that time, I went through the Radio Teletype course and also the Cryptography course, Crypto. 12 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:40,620 They had five instructors that were getting out of military service. 13 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:49,380 So they pulled the top five students, and I was third in the class. 14 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:51,880 So I got pulled as an instructor. 15 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,200 Now, were you at this time also working yet for CIA? 16 00:01:57,420 --> 00:01:57,660 No. 17 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:58,460 Not yet? 18 00:01:58,720 --> 00:01:59,020 No. 19 00:01:59,020 --> 00:02:09,860 After one day, my boss came to me, and he said, how would you like to, you know, make some extra money? 20 00:02:10,780 --> 00:02:12,960 And I said, oh, money is good. 21 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:28,840 So he's explained to me that I could, he could put it through, like, would have to get a top secret White House Q clearance for the job, you know. 22 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:34,580 And I thought, boy, it must be a pretty exclusive thing, you know. 23 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,580 And I said, well, what is this? 24 00:02:37,980 --> 00:02:45,540 And he said that I'm director for the CIA for eastern United States, you know. 25 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:47,880 And I said, oh, I didn't know that. 26 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,760 And he said, you weren't supposed to. 27 00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:59,860 After about six weeks, my security clearance came through, and I got my CIA card. 28 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:08,460 It was an ID card, like a credit card, where I could just go up to the door and slice it, walk right in. 29 00:03:08,460 --> 00:03:18,180 And my name at that time, I used an artificial name, too, never used my real name. 30 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:32,400 I started working with him on the project he was on, and that was Project Blue Book, which was kind of partially a fraud. 31 00:03:34,180 --> 00:03:37,620 You're saying some of the Blue Book cases were completely fictitious? 32 00:03:37,620 --> 00:03:48,260 Yes, but the cases that we got came from, I think it was Fort Belleville, Maryland. 33 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:48,780 Mm-hmm. 34 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:49,860 Fort Belvoir? 35 00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:56,760 Yeah, and it didn't come from the Pentagon, or it didn't come from CIA headquarters. 36 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:08,580 But we would get reports about a certain sighting that they had in Mexico or Italy or something like that. 37 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,660 And then we would have to, we had people that would follow through on it. 38 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:22,040 They would go out and interview the people to see if they were not cases or if it was real. 39 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,580 So they'd be going overseas, frequently? 40 00:04:25,220 --> 00:04:29,020 I wasn't, but I always stayed statewide. 41 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:36,880 But the people we had working with us from CIA would do that. 42 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:43,480 We would get like a new report probably a couple times a week. 43 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:54,040 I was coming into the Army fresh off the farm, you know, so I really didn't have much knowledge of anything. 44 00:04:54,440 --> 00:05:09,420 But my boss filled me in on Project Blue Book and what they had found so far, as far as greys and aliens and the Roswell incident. 45 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:16,360 How did you feel when this first got dumped on you, when you first learned about this? 46 00:05:16,380 --> 00:05:20,620 Well, I was just kind of overwhelmed with all of this, you know. 47 00:05:21,340 --> 00:05:27,460 And I said to him, I don't know if I'm going to be able to be a judge of this type of thing. 48 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,480 What's real, what's not, when I don't have much knowledge of it, you know. 49 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:35,200 So... 50 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,040 What did he say? 51 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:46,240 He said, well, we have to build the information as we go, and you'll see how this thing is working out. 52 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:52,360 And then the other thing is, of course, you really weren't able to tell family or close friends, obviously. 53 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,980 No, I couldn't tell anybody. 54 00:05:54,740 --> 00:06:00,620 In fact, I had to take a vow that I wouldn't tell anybody. 55 00:06:00,620 --> 00:06:11,800 A lot of it for 40 years, and more of it for 50 years, which is up in 2010. 56 00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:14,480 You're doing all this crypto work. 57 00:06:14,660 --> 00:06:17,460 You're looking at images, photographs, video. 58 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:21,120 It's 1958, maybe the fall of 58. 59 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:23,960 What happened after this? 60 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,060 At that time, the Project Blue Book thing kind of went pot, you know. 61 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:35,740 If you remember, back in those days, they kind of declared it as a nothing, you know. 62 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:36,040 Mm-hmm. 63 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:36,680 Right. 64 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:37,820 And... 65 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:43,740 They were telling the world all UFOs are misidentifications, hoaxes... 66 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:44,420 Balloons. 67 00:06:44,780 --> 00:06:45,340 Yes. 68 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,300 Psychological issues, whatever. 69 00:06:47,980 --> 00:06:48,460 Yes. 70 00:06:48,620 --> 00:06:48,780 Yeah. 71 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,760 So my boss came to me, and he says, we've both got a new assignment. 72 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,200 And he says, oh, I said, where are we going? 73 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,760 Oh, he says, we're going to the Capitol. 74 00:07:03,140 --> 00:07:08,160 We're going to be part of the Eisenhower push. 75 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:18,100 He's trying to find out something about, all about these aliens that MJ-12 was supposed 76 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:23,720 to find out, but never sent back reports to him. 77 00:07:24,540 --> 00:07:30,520 The MJ-12, the UFO control group, were they calling it MJ-12 at that time? 78 00:07:30,780 --> 00:07:30,940 Yes. 79 00:07:30,940 --> 00:07:40,300 And they called us in, went into the Oval Office, and President Eisenhower was there 80 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:55,080 and Nixon, and they said, we called the people in from MJ-12, from Area 51 and S-4, but they 81 00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:01,280 told us that the government had no jurisdiction over what they were doing. 82 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:10,620 So being a general, past general, you didn't tell them to go to hell without any real good 83 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:11,460 reason, you know? 84 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:11,700 Mm-hmm. 85 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:19,620 So he said, I want you and your boss to fly out there. 86 00:08:20,620 --> 00:08:23,060 I want you to give them a personal message. 87 00:08:23,060 --> 00:08:33,480 He says, I want you to tell them, whoever is in charge, tell them that they have this 88 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:41,800 week, coming week, to get into Washington and to report to me, and if they don't, I'm 89 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:48,100 going to get the First Army from Colorado, and we're going to go over, I'm going to take 90 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:56,360 the base over, I don't care what kind of classified material you got, we're going to rip this thing 91 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:56,840 apart. 92 00:08:57,060 --> 00:09:00,700 Eisenhower was going to invade Area 51. 93 00:09:00,700 --> 00:09:00,720 Yes, Area 51. 94 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,900 Yeah, with the First Army. 95 00:09:04,180 --> 00:09:06,580 So you go out with your superior. 96 00:09:06,820 --> 00:09:07,260 Yes. 97 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:09,940 You fly out, you land. 98 00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:10,520 What happens? 99 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,060 Can you describe this whole process? 100 00:09:12,060 --> 00:09:12,860 What you saw? 101 00:09:12,860 --> 00:09:23,920 It took us the 13 or 15 miles south to the S-4 had, like, different garage door openings. 102 00:09:24,340 --> 00:09:24,640 Okay. 103 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:30,800 And in these garage door openings, they had, like, different saucer crafts. 104 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:40,040 The very first one had the Roswell craft in. 105 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,800 It was kind of crashed up. 106 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:50,480 But apparently every alien that was in it died except for a couple. 107 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,100 So you see the Roswell craft, and what are some of the others that you see? 108 00:09:54,620 --> 00:10:02,460 Well, the Roswell craft was really strange, because it looked like real heavy aluminum foil. 109 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:04,440 Hey. 110 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,280 We could rock next to it, and you could rock it. 111 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,120 The whole thing probably weighed 150, 300 pounds. 112 00:10:14,340 --> 00:10:17,440 Could they tell what the source of power was of this craft? 113 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:24,420 Yeah, it was like a reverse gravitational thing of some kind. 114 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:40,380 In fact, one later on, I got the mathematical code for recursing gravity in a 3x5 card. 115 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:46,580 I guess there are different types of grays and so on. 116 00:10:46,580 --> 00:10:48,680 How did you see that evidence? 117 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:59,460 Well, at the, uh, later on, at S-4, we viewed the autopsy film. 118 00:11:00,380 --> 00:11:09,480 And then the colonel said, what we've got in here is we're interviewing a gray alien. 119 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,520 All right, right there. 120 00:11:11,820 --> 00:11:14,280 How did you feel at that moment? 121 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:21,100 Well, I thought, boy, we had no idea we were going to see the real thing. 122 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:22,880 All we saw was film. 123 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,360 You had to have a little bit of heart racing at that moment. 124 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:35,080 My boss was able to go in and had a, like, a partial interview with us. 125 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,800 So what did this gray alien look like? 126 00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:38,380 Could you describe him a little bit? 127 00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:42,240 This one looked a little bit oriental. 128 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:49,060 So I'm, I'm just wondering if, if it looked almost human, what about this didn't look human? 129 00:11:50,940 --> 00:12:00,620 No, it didn't look human as far as the skin tone and basically the shape of it and the size. 130 00:12:00,620 --> 00:12:04,300 How was its head size compared with a normal human, for example? 131 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:09,300 Uh, brain was kind of a little bit bigger. 132 00:12:09,620 --> 00:12:09,940 Mm-hmm. 133 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,860 And some of them, nose was very, very small. 134 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,460 And ears were just like holes. 135 00:12:18,420 --> 00:12:20,980 Mouth was very small. 136 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,160 Now, why were they bringing you out here at all, anyway, to see an alien? 137 00:12:27,340 --> 00:12:28,160 What was the point? 138 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,980 To go back and tell the president they actually had one. 139 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:38,660 So he did not know at this point if there was an alien at S-4? 140 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:39,480 No. 141 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,380 What did you do then at area, were you done or did you have other things to do at S-4? 142 00:12:43,380 --> 00:12:48,420 Yes, so basically we were kind of done, went back to area 51. 143 00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:49,060 Mm-hmm. 144 00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:54,980 They took us into the main building and there we saw a U-2, 145 00:12:54,980 --> 00:12:58,220 which, of course, we didn't know existed. 146 00:12:58,220 --> 00:12:59,420 Mm-hmm. 147 00:12:59,420 --> 00:13:06,500 And the, uh, a model of the SR-71. 148 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:07,520 Yeah, the Blackbird. 149 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:14,680 So, but like I mentioned earlier, it was not a model of the current Blackbird. 150 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:16,480 Early, but later. 151 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:17,180 It was an earlier version. 152 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:18,680 But an early version. 153 00:13:19,020 --> 00:13:21,040 Did you go directly to Washington after this? 154 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:21,980 Yes. 155 00:13:21,980 --> 00:13:22,880 Or did you go somewhere else? 156 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,720 How did they get, did you fly a regular airline or? 157 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:32,380 We flew back to, to, uh, the commuter plane back to the air base. 158 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:32,680 Mm-hmm. 159 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:41,200 And then took President Eisenhower's Lockheed Electra back to Washington. 160 00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:43,520 You and your supervisor. 161 00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:43,760 Yeah. 162 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:44,500 Superior officer. 163 00:13:44,740 --> 00:13:46,620 And now you're meeting with the president? 164 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:48,000 Yes. 165 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:49,420 Can you describe this? 166 00:13:49,840 --> 00:14:00,460 Well, we met with him in, uh, boy, the second story of the old OSS warehouse building. 167 00:14:01,620 --> 00:14:05,700 And, uh, Eisenhower and Nixon were there. 168 00:14:06,180 --> 00:14:10,700 And, uh, also Hoover was there. 169 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:25,220 So he asked us what was going on, and we told him about the alien, the whole situation, and the, uh, black projects, and so on. 170 00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:27,380 And he was just totally shocked. 171 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,480 He appeared for the first time to be, uh, worried. 172 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:33,720 Mm-hmm. 173 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,260 You know, like he was worried. 174 00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:43,740 I would think that Eisenhower would, I mean, he certainly knew that flying saucers were real. 175 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:44,480 Yes. 176 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,100 He knew that there were aliens. 177 00:14:47,060 --> 00:14:51,720 So I guess I'm just wondering, what would he have been, you know, really surprised about? 178 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,620 Uh, surprised about the black programs. 179 00:14:57,620 --> 00:15:03,480 Heisenhower said, got to keep this thing completely secret. 180 00:15:04,580 --> 00:15:04,780 Mm-hmm. 181 00:15:04,780 --> 00:15:06,620 You know, can't talk about this. 182 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:15,100 Your actual name is, I mean, the name you grew up with, that was a different name than what you had in this. 183 00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:18,520 Yes, I never, never used it in the CIA at all. 184 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,140 Now, what about today? 185 00:15:21,780 --> 00:15:36,100 You're going on the public record, and this is still sensitive information, even though earlier you talked about, you know, security oaths that maybe expire after a certain period of time. 186 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:36,840 Fifty years. 187 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:38,460 But you're still concerned. 188 00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:52,860 Linda Motenow's phone call, her phone was tapped, and they got my phone number, and through the telephone company, they were able to find me, and so on. 189 00:15:53,340 --> 00:15:54,980 When they found you, what happened? 190 00:15:54,980 --> 00:16:17,020 I was going to a grocery store, two guys in black suits come out of a black Lincoln town car, and came over to see me, and they told me that I better not publish anything or talk to Linda about any more things. 191 00:16:17,860 --> 00:16:22,560 So, at that time, I did, you know, I stopped. 192 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,700 That was enough to intimidate you? 193 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,220 Yes. 194 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:28,780 Rather remain anonymous. 195 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,580 Never show my face on anything. 196 00:16:33,540 --> 00:16:35,920 Really, thank you for doing this. 197 00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:37,300 Yes. 198 00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:46,940 This was, I guess, kind of a good idea, because I feel much better having talked about it. 199 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:53,200 I kind of feel like there's a load off my shoulders. 200 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:53,760 Really? 201 00:16:55,380 --> 00:17:01,620 Because I had an awful lot of secrets that I had kept over the years. 202 00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:20,000 They didn't really consider it as like a big threat.