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This is a guest that I have been so excited
to have the opportunity to speak with for

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a very long time.

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We talked about mass formation psychosis
before we talked to Dr. Mark McDonald, but

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Matthias Desmit is behind the mass formation
discussion out of Belgium.

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He is written, the psychology of
totalitarianism, which comes out today,...

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So it is my honor and privilege to have him
coming up for a sense of what we're talking

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about.

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Here is what it's looked like in your news.

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Well, the term mass formation psychosis
trended over the weekend with so many...

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broke the Internet.

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When people went to search for the term on
Google, a couple of strange things happened.

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Some people saw this odd disclaimer from
Google saying the results were changing...

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and that it would take time for results to be
added by reliable sources.

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What does this even mean?

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I thought when you Googled something, it
would bring up sites relating to the topic.

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Sounds like they're censoring search results.

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Well, a few hours later, when people searched
for the term, a bunch of sites began to pop

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up claiming it was a new far right buzzword
or one attributed to anti-vaxxers.

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So what is mass formation psychosis?

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Well, the term came recently from the Joe
Rogan, Dr. Robert Malone interview that aired

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this past Friday.

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And this leads into this whole issue of mass
formation psychosis.

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There's good modeling studies that probably
half a million excess deaths have happened

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in the United States through the intentional
blockade of early treatment by the US...

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But was also heard and explained in more
detail during Dr. Peter McAuliffe's interview

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with Rogan.

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We're in what's called a mass formation
psychosis.

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This is very important.

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I give credit to Dr. Matthias Desmet in the
University of Ghent in Belgium.

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Mass psychosis is when there is a groupthink
that develops that so strong that it leads

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to something horrific.

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If all the people who want to speak out
against the mainstream narrative, if they...

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and become one group, they would be powerful
enough to change the direction of the middle

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group.

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We should continue to speak out.

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The most important thing we can do.

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For any of you out there in the world that
have been saying, I feel like I'm walking

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around an insane asylum or, you know what I
mean, the lunatics have taken over the insane

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asylum.

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I'm there with you.

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Matthias Desmet has done some incredible work
on the concept of mass formation.

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It is my honor and privilege to be joined by
him now.

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So to begin with, there's been some
confusion.

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The term I don't want to get buried here.

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Mass formation psychosis.

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But you just call it mass formation.

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Is that correct?

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Yes, I prefer to call it mass formation.

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I never use the term mass formation psychosis
because in my opinion, both from an ethical

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and from an intellectual point of view, it's
better to use the term mass formation.

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OK.

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Now, you know, one of my questions is, is
mass formation a term you've come up with

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or is this an older term in psychology?

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That's something I haven't understood yet.

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Has this been around for some time?

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The term was used from the 19th century
onwards by such authors as Gustave Le Bon.

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Freud also used it one time.

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Elias Karnetti used it.

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It was definitely used before I used it, but
maybe not in such a systematic way.

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That's possible.

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OK.

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Now, for my audience out there, I know you've
told this story many, many times, but for

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there's so many people that still have not
really heard what mass formation is and how

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it comes about.

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Obviously, we're talking about this pandemic
in many ways, which is why we're having this

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conversation.

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But take me through what are the elements,
you know, what is, you know, is there a state

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that a population obviously isn't always the
world.

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It can be a continent.

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It can be, you know, a smaller group of
people.

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There has to be a set of things taking place,
like a climate that makes us vulnerable to

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this.

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Is that correct?

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Yes, exactly.

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Exactly.

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Mass formation is a specific kind of group
formation which has very specific effects

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at the level of individual mental
functioning.

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For instance, it tends to make people
completely incapable of taking a critical...

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what the group believes in.

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And in the end, the group starts to believe
in the most absurd things, such as, to give

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one concrete example, during the revolution
in Iran, the revolution of 1979, which was

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the beginning of a large scale process of
mass formation in Iran, people started to

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believe that the portrait, the picture of the
Ayatollah, the leader of the mass, you

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could say, was printed on the surface of the
moon.

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And when there was a full moon in the sky,
people typically stood out in the streets

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pointing at the moon, showing where exactly
they could see the portrait of the Ayatollah.

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That's one historical example of how absurd
the beliefs of a mass can come.

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So that's one typical characteristic of the
phenomenon of mass formation, one typical

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effect of mass formation on individual mental
functioning.

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But there is more.

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For instance, people who are in the grip of a
mass formation typically become willing

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to self-sacrifice.

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It is as if they are no longer aware of their
own personal egoistic interests.

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And this goes very far as well.

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People become radically aware to sacrifice
everything that was important to them before

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the mass formation started.

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And a third characteristic that is extremely
important is that people who are in the grip

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of mass formation typically become radically
intolerant for dissonant voices.

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And in the end, they tend to stigmatize the
people that do not go along with them, give

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them a sign, and then start to commit
cruelties towards them.

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And in the end, try to eliminate or destroy
them.

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And even more important or more
characteristic, they do so as if it is an...

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do that, to destroy these other people.

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And they even become radically aggressive and
intolerant towards the people they used

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to love very much before the mass formation.

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I will give a concrete example again.

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Two months ago, I was talking to this woman
of Iran, Shoreh Fishtari, this conversation

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is available on the internet, who lived in
Iran during the revolution.

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And she has seen with her own eyes how a
mother reported her son to the state and h...

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rope around his neck just before he was hung,
and how she claimed to be a heroine for doing

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so.

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That's one concrete example, but it's typical
for all mass formations, whether we are...

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about the Crusades or about the witch hunts
or about the French Revolution or about the

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rise of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, all
typical examples, historical examples

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of mass formation.

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We see this very typical characteristic that
in the end, people start to commit cruelties

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to everyone, even the people they loved very
much before the mass formation, and they

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do so as if it is an ethical duty to do so.

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That's the last stage of mass formation.

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And it is extremely important to understand
the mechanism, the psychological mechanism

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of mass formation.

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Because if you understand it, you know what
we have to do to avoid the process of mass

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formation going to this ultimate, terrible
stage.

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And that's well, of course, I've been
explaining this mechanism of mass formation.

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It's indeed, as you already suggested, the
population has to be in a specific...

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state.

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Yeah, tell me about that.

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It's about like what makes us vulnerable as a
society to this type.

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And you're talking about this isn't just this
transcends education levels, right?

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You're talking about essentially, you know,
the majority of humanity are vulnerable to

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being taking part in this.

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I mean, I used to always argue with my
friends growing up that anybody could be a...

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you were in the right circumstances and
socialized correctly.

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I think for the most part, most of us, it's
very rare that we have some sort of moral

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code or supercritical thinking that breaks us
apart from it.

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But before we get into what makes it, what is
the what has to be the climate?

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What has to what makes us vulnerable to this
type of movement?

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Yes.

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Well, first and for all, some people are
resilient.

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Some people do not fall prey to mass
formation, but it's very hard to know why ...

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do not fall prey to it.

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But as you said, intelligence doesn't protect
you from mass formation, not at all.

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And the level of education is even a counter
indication.

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The higher the level of education, the more
vulnerable for mass formation that has been

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observed in the 19th century and 20th
century.

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And we see it again now.

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So but indeed, the most important thing is
that, well, a population has to be in a very

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specific mental state in order for large
scale mass formation to emerge.

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And the most crucial condition for large
scale mass formation is that many people h...

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be disconnected from their natural and their
social environment.

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So many people have to feel lonely, have to
feel atomized, as Hannah Arendt called it.

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And what you could see, for instance, was
that just before the corona crisis, the...

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of lonely people really peaked in Western
society and even worldwide.

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Over 30% of the people worldwide reported in
a Gallup World Poll that they didn't have

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one meaningful relationship and that they
only connected to others through the...

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That gives you an idea of the extent of the
problem.

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In the UK, Theresa May appointed a minister
of loneliness.

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And in the US, the US search in general
concluded that there was a loneliness...

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was around 2017, and the problem only became
worse since then.

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So that's the most crucial condition is this
social isolation of a substantial part of

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the population.

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And then the second condition actually
follows from the first one.

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Once people feel disconnected, they will
typically start to be confronted with a la...

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and meaning in life.

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And that's just because human beings are
social beings, and they have the feeling t...

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their life makes sense if they see that they
have an effect on the other.

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So if their relationship with the other
impoverishes, if there is no strong social...

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people will typically start to suffer or to
be confronted with lack of meaning making

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in life.

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So that's the second condition.

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And also that condition was really fulfilled
just before the corona crisis.

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Over 60% of the people worldwide claimed that
they consider their own job to be a

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bullshit job.

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That means a job which they couldn't think of
for whom it might mean something or to

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what it could.

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So that's that's that's extremely high
figures.

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Only 15% of the people worldwide consider
their own job to be meaningful.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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So they're living, they're feeling lonely,
they're living what they consider to be a

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meaningless life.

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And so those are two of the conditions,
right?

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What else is exactly and the third condition,
the third and the fourth condition are are

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also crucial.

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The third condition is that when people are
in this state of disconnectedness and lack

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of meaning making, they will typically
typically be confronted with so-called fre...

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or freely floating anxiety, frustration and
aggression.

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That means that a kind of anxiety, a kind of
frustration and aggression that is not

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connected to a mental representation or to
put it in plain terms, a kind of anxiety

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in which people don't know what they feel
anxious for, a kind of frustration and...

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in which people don't know what they feel
frustrated and aggressive for.

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And this is an extremely aversive mental
state, because if you feel anxious and you...

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know what you feel anxious for, you feel
completely out of control.

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You feel as if you cannot control your
anxiety just because you don't know what...

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anxious for.

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And under these conditions, if a population,
if these conditions are fulfilled in a...

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something very typical might happen.

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Even under these conditions, a narrative is
distributed through the mass media,...

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an object of anxiety and at the same time
providing a strategy to deal with the object

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of anxiety, then all this free floating
anxiety in society might connect to the...

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anxiety provided in the narrative.

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And there might be a huge willingness to
participate in the strategy to deal with t...

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anxiety.

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The reason why is clear.

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If people can connect their anxiety to an
object and participate in a strategy to deal

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with this object, they feel in control again.

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And it doesn't matter then whether this
object of anxiety is the true object of th...

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or not.

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That is the first step of every major
phenomenon of mass formation.

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In the Crusades, the object of anxiety was
the Muslims.

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In the witch hunts, the object of anxiety was
the witches.

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And during the French Revolution, it was the
Ancien Régime.

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In the Soviet Union, it was the aristocracy.

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In the Nazi Germany, it was the Jews.

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And now in the Corona crisis, it was the
Corona virus and all the people that refused

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to go along with the battle to fight the
Corona virus.

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So the first step of mass formation is always
the coupling, the connection of the free

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floating anxiety to one object, which makes
that people become very focused.

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All the attention is directed at one very
small aspect of reality from then on.

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And the rest of reality disappears into
darkness.

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And the second step is even more important.

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Because so many people at the same time
participate in the strategy to deal with t...

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anxiety, people have the feeling that they
are connected again.

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They don't feel lonely anymore.

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They fight a collective heroic battle with an
enemy, feel connected again.

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And we could say, OK, and what's the problem
then?

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People felt lonely.

228
00:14:58,039 --> 00:14:59,039
And what if you connected again?

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Well, there is a huge problem because this
new connection, this new group, this mass

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00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:11,799
that emerges in a society is not formed
because individuals connect to each other.

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00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:17,500
It's formed because every individual
separately connects to the collective.

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That means that in a mass, people are
typically very enthusiastic and full of...

233
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,879
But the solidarity is not a solidarity with
other individuals.

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00:15:27,879 --> 00:15:31,399
It's a solidarity between an individual and
the collective.

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And even the longer the mass formation lasts,
the more all the psychological energy, all

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00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:44,280
the love and solidarity is sucked away from
the bonds between individuals and all...

237
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,879
and invested in the bond between the
individual and the collective.

238
00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:52,840
And that explains, of course, why in the end
people show a radical lack of solidarity with

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00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,840
each other and a huge solidarity with the
collective.

240
00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,240
And as a consequence, they are willing to
report everyone, even their loved ones, to

241
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,240
the collective.

242
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,240
Wow.

243
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,960
And that's typically what happened during the
Corona crisis.

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00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,200
We were all full of solidarity or most people
were full of solidarity.

245
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:16,080
And at the same time, they accepted that when
someone got an accident on the street, they

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00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,120
were no longer allowed to help that person.

247
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,799
And it was stipulated like that on the
websites of the Dutch, the Holland...

248
00:16:24,799 --> 00:16:29,080
European government, and probably also on the
website of the US government.

249
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,480
In the same vein, people accepted that if
their parents were dying, if their father

250
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,320
or mother was dying, they were no longer
allowed to visit them anymore.

251
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,240
That was the kind of solidarity that emerged
in the Corona crisis and that emerges in

252
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,600
every mass formation and in every
totalitarian state, which is usually a...

253
00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:49,240
formation, always a consequence of mass
formation.

254
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,320
That's what I describe in my book, The
Psychology of Totalitarianism.

255
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,600
The consequence of mass formation is that in
the end, people end up in a radically

256
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:58,600
paranoid atmosphere.

257
00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:59,600
Wow.

258
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:05,279
I mean, when I think about the cycle of that,
when you really aren't connecting, you are

259
00:17:05,279 --> 00:17:09,000
fulfilling what you think is a connection,
but has no connection to somebody.

260
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,480
It's actually robbing you of that.

261
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,039
See antithesis of that.

262
00:17:12,159 --> 00:17:18,559
You sit more and more isolated, but a part of
a connected ideal and ideology, it's robbing

263
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:22,759
you of that connection, which seems like it
would make you even more desperately...

264
00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:26,519
you know, sort of like a drug that you're
trying to get fulfilled by.

265
00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,399
But that whole, that chasm just gets deeper
and deeper and deeper.

266
00:17:30,399 --> 00:17:37,039
And you get more, I would guess, ferociously
involved with this mission.

267
00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:43,759
So quickly, when you look at mass formations,
I mean, I've been saying we've seen world

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00:17:43,759 --> 00:17:44,759
wars.

269
00:17:44,759 --> 00:17:48,559
We call world wars one nation against
another, you know, things like that.

270
00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:57,079
In this scenario, mass media and government
regulatory agencies in almost every nation

271
00:17:57,079 --> 00:18:00,839
of the world took part in this.

272
00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:05,200
Is this the largest mass formation event in
the history of the world?

273
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,440
That's how I see it.

274
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:11,960
Is there another example you can give where
this collectively, we all jumped on, you

275
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,279
know, at least those that believed in it, got
involved with a singular thought all

276
00:18:16,279 --> 00:18:20,519
the way around the world, a singular ideology
to stop this virus.

277
00:18:20,519 --> 00:18:22,400
Has that happened before?

278
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,400
Never.

279
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,360
This is this mass formation cannot be
compared to any mass formation before for...

280
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:34,200
The size, it's a worldwide mass formation and
also maybe even more important.

281
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:40,680
The modern masses are different from all from
ancient masses because of one very important

282
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:41,920
factor.

283
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,120
Modern masses are so-called lonely masses.

284
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:50,920
That's something that I learned from Jacques
Ellul who wrote a wonderful book on...

285
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,799
And he said that the most important
difference between the modern masses and t...

286
00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:58,080
masses is exactly that the modern masses are
lonely masses.

287
00:18:58,079 --> 00:19:05,159
That means masses that form without the
individuals who are in the mass, without...

288
00:19:05,159 --> 00:19:06,559
don't physically meet.

289
00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:09,839
They are all isolated in their own homes.

290
00:19:09,839 --> 00:19:11,439
They all share the same narratives.

291
00:19:11,439 --> 00:19:13,039
They all share the same beliefs.

292
00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:19,159
They all share the same myths because these
myths, narratives, beliefs are distributed

293
00:19:19,159 --> 00:19:20,399
through the mass media.

294
00:19:20,399 --> 00:19:24,679
So the modern masses can only exist through
the mass media.

295
00:19:24,679 --> 00:19:26,799
Mass media are crucial.

296
00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:35,759
The modern masses, these lonely masses are
much, much more vulnerable for propaganda

297
00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:44,079
and indoctrination of the ancient masses just
because in an isolated state, people are less

298
00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:47,960
resilient to the infusion of ideas from
outside.

299
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,599
So the lonely masses, it's crucial to
understand what's happening.

300
00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:57,439
So normally, normally I imagine and I think
about this, there was never a stadium filled

301
00:19:57,439 --> 00:20:02,599
with people going, stop the virus, stop the
virus, like we would see around Hitler, the

302
00:20:02,599 --> 00:20:08,839
giant masses that were involved coming
together, you know, pamphlets being handed...

303
00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:11,480
An interaction is what you're saying in those
masses.

304
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:17,240
In this, we all sat by ourselves in our homes
being fed information either via social media

305
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,319
or our television set coming to our
conclusions, but never having the moment t...

306
00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:23,319
do you think this is crazy?

307
00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:27,120
Like there was no, no physical connection in
it.

308
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:28,400
It's totally lonely.

309
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,120
That's really interesting.

310
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,720
Indeed. It was a lonely mass.

311
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,720
And that makes the effect of the mass
formation even more powerful.

312
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,079
Mass formation is identical to hypnosis.

313
00:20:39,079 --> 00:20:41,279
It's definitely the same process.

314
00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:46,599
In hypnosis, in a classical hypnosis, there
is someone who withdraws the attention of

315
00:20:46,599 --> 00:20:52,359
someone else from the environment and focuses
all the attention on one small aspect of

316
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:53,359
reality.

317
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,679
For instance, you often see the hypnotist
moving with his hands like this and then...

318
00:20:57,679 --> 00:21:01,079
all the attention on one small point of
reality.

319
00:21:01,079 --> 00:21:06,199
And once the attention is coupled to this one
small aspect of reality, all the rest

320
00:21:06,199 --> 00:21:08,179
of reality disappears in the darkness.

321
00:21:08,179 --> 00:21:10,919
It seems as if it doesn't exist anymore.

322
00:21:10,919 --> 00:21:15,119
And this mechanism is extremely powerful.

323
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:22,279
For instance, a simple elementary hypnotic
procedure is sufficient to focus the...

324
00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:23,439
of someone.

325
00:21:23,439 --> 00:21:31,779
So one aspect of reality that the person
doesn't notice anymore that a surgeon is...

326
00:21:31,779 --> 00:21:32,779
in his flesh.

327
00:21:32,779 --> 00:21:38,959
I've seen this with my own eyes, how a
professor hypnotized someone in a hospital...

328
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:44,600
surgeon, a simple hypnotic procedure, and how
a surgeon could cut through the skin,

329
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:50,279
through the flesh, even cut straight through
the breastbone to perform an open heart...

330
00:21:50,279 --> 00:21:55,299
That's the strength of the phenomenon of
hypnosis, the strength of the mechanism of...

331
00:21:55,299 --> 00:21:57,640
of attention on one point.

332
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,680
And that's exactly what happens in a mass
formation.

333
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,799
In a mass formation, there is first this
stage of disconnection from the environmen...

334
00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:08,559
can take a few decades, a few years.

335
00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:10,039
It doesn't matter.

336
00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:16,879
And once all the psychological energy is
freely floating in the mental atmosphere,...

337
00:22:16,879 --> 00:22:21,679
have this free-floating anxiety, frustration
and aggression, there's suddenly this...

338
00:22:21,679 --> 00:22:27,079
distributed through the mass media, focusing
all the anxiety, all the frustration, all

339
00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:32,119
the aggression on this one point, the virus,
the antifacts, the Jews, the aristocracy.

340
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,720
It doesn't matter whom.

341
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,159
And then once all the attention is focused at
that point, people are not aware anymore

342
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,400
of all the rest of reality.

343
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,880
And you can literally take everything away of
them.

344
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,560
They won't notice it.

345
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:50,600
You can literally, the Corona measures can
make as can claim as many victims as they

346
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:56,320
want. People will only see the victims of the
virus in the beginning of the of the

347
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:02,360
Corona crisis. I try to tell people time and
time again, OK, the virus might claim a

348
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:07,880
certain number of victims, but the Corona
measures probably will claim much more...

349
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:14,800
And no matter how much I try to show people
papers all calculating that the number of

350
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,759
victims of the of the measures would probably
be higher than the number of victims claimed

351
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:21,120
by the virus, they didn't want to see.

352
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,960
They just told me things like, OK, and what
will you do then?

353
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,600
You will just let these people die who suffer
from Corona.

354
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,200
I said, no, what will you do?

355
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,880
Will you let all these children starve in
developing countries as a consequence of the

356
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,840
lockdowns? And people stopped talking to me.

357
00:23:36,279 --> 00:23:37,839
They didn't want to hear it.

358
00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:42,359
Then they might have they manifested
something that is typical for mass formati...

359
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,759
radical intolerance for dissonant voices.

360
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,959
And that's the exact that's a problem.

361
00:23:46,959 --> 00:23:48,319
There are several aspects.

362
00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:53,519
I explained them in detail in my book, which
make that people in the mass formation are

363
00:23:53,519 --> 00:24:00,879
just not sensitive anymore to rational
counter argumentations, no matter how well...

364
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:07,280
good they are, these counter rational
argumentations, people in a mass won't...

365
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:14,960
They usually won't wake up, even not when
confronted with the most solid arguments

366
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,360
against their narrative.

367
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,120
But and that's important.

368
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,240
That doesn't mean that we are that there is
nothing we can do.

369
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:23,720
We definitely can do something.

370
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,840
When we look at that, you know, when I look
at, you know, these measures, first of all,

371
00:24:29,919 --> 00:24:32,919
you know, we've had so many discussions on
our show.

372
00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:37,720
You know, you had ivermectin, you had
hydroxychloroquine, you had studies showin...

373
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,359
these products look like they were working or
having a success.

374
00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:44,119
Yet the narrative where these things don't
work, the vaccine is going to be our only

375
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,399
way through the only way we can get to the
vaccine.

376
00:24:46,399 --> 00:24:47,959
We got to make sure that enough of us don't
die.

377
00:24:47,959 --> 00:24:49,159
You all have to wear a mask.

378
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:53,559
And as you pointed out, really didn't matter
how many mask studies you showed.

379
00:24:53,679 --> 00:24:58,879
I brought on specialists from OSHA who fit
masks on people saying the mask is not

380
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,040
designed to stop this virus.

381
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,680
It never will and never can.

382
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,800
And there's detrimental effects.

383
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:11,280
Now, our audience did grow, but obviously the
mask chose a different perspective.

384
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:17,360
My question is, how much does the does it
work better if it's sensible?

385
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,640
Because this all seemed so great.

386
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,960
Like it's there was there was no sense to it
that you had Fauci saying the mask

387
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,840
didn't work and then he said they did.

388
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,720
And we all forgot that he said they didn't.

389
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,200
And that didn't seem to matter with studies
that we said that the mask wearing around

390
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,640
like I'm afraid of the air, it just seems so
unreasonable.

391
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:41,000
Does does reasonability get in the way of
mass formation or is it part of it?

392
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:41,839
Is it part of it?

393
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,200
Just the most ridiculous thing they can ask
you.

394
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:44,880
You'll do it.

395
00:25:46,079 --> 00:25:50,120
It just doesn't matter to someone in mass
formation whether the narrative that leads

396
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,640
to the mass formation is correct or blatantly
wrong or utterly absurd.

397
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:54,440
That doesn't matter.

398
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,080
People buy into the narrative, not because
they think it's right or correct or...

399
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,920
They buy into the narrative because it leads
to this new social bond.

400
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,880
That's why they buy into the narrative.

401
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:11,080
For the same reason, I as supporters in a
football stadium all sing the same song,

402
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,360
not because they think this is the most
beautiful song in the world or because the...

403
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:15,559
right or correct or something.

404
00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:18,680
They sing it because it connects them to each
other.

405
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,360
And that's why people go along with the
narrative of a mass formation.

406
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:23,600
And you could even say more.

407
00:26:23,879 --> 00:26:31,039
And this was observed by most people, most
founding fathers of propaganda.

408
00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:32,079
You could even see more.

409
00:26:32,199 --> 00:26:36,759
It's a very good thing if propaganda is not
consistent, if it's inconsistent.

410
00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:41,439
You can perfectly also, Hannah Arendt, if
you're familiar with her work, she wrote

411
00:26:41,439 --> 00:26:46,599
this wonderful book, The Origins of
Totalitarianism, totalitarianism, which is...

412
00:26:46,599 --> 00:26:53,279
of state, which is based on mass formation
and which also is what my book is all about,

413
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:56,720
because I think you're witnessing the
emergence of a new totalitarianism,

414
00:26:56,759 --> 00:26:58,240
technocratic totalitarianism.

415
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:05,879
But Hannah Arendt also observed already that
she said the leaders of the masses

416
00:27:06,639 --> 00:27:13,599
based their propaganda on the very correct
psychological assumption that it is perfectly

417
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:17,359
possible to lie to the population time and
time again.

418
00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:23,240
And it might perfectly be the case that every
day it becomes clear that what you said

419
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:25,720
the day before was a lie.

420
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,960
People will still believe the lie of today
and they will go along with it as if it is

421
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,359
the truth. So and I could give you several
other examples.

422
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:40,440
People, that's something that is very
striking and very, very, very remarkable t...

423
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,279
in a mass formation just don't care whether
it is true or not what they believe in.

424
00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:50,599
And even more, the more absurd the narrative
is that leads to the mass formation, the more

425
00:27:50,639 --> 00:27:56,359
absurd the narrative is that is articulated
by the leaders of the masses, the more...

426
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:01,439
they will be. And it is just the simple
reason is it's that what I explained in...

427
00:28:01,439 --> 00:28:07,319
of my book. The simple reason is that the
narrative and the measures, for instance,

428
00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:12,480
the corona measures, because all narratives
that lead to mass formation has to be...

429
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,639
with a certain action, certain behavior,
concrete behavior.

430
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:22,400
Well, the measures, the more the measures
become absurd, the more they fulfill their

431
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,160
function as a ritual.

432
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:31,560
And the ritual is exactly a kind of behavior
that is absurd from a pragmatic point of

433
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:37,520
view and that demands a sacrifice of the
individual, a sacrifice through which the

434
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:44,200
individual shows that its own individual
interests are less important than the...

435
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,160
interests. That's ritualistic behavior.

436
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,720
And that's why people in a mass are really in
need of ritualistic behavior.

437
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,960
They felt disconnected.

438
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,480
They felt lonely. They felt this extreme lack
of meaning making.

439
00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:01,720
They felt that their life was without sense.

440
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,240
And now they found this new purpose.

441
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,799
They found something that is worth living for
and that is worth dying for.

442
00:29:09,119 --> 00:29:15,639
And through the participation in absurd
rituals, unconsciously, they satisfy this

443
00:29:15,639 --> 00:29:23,759
enormous need that all human beings have to
to transcend their own individual lives.

444
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,519
But the problem of mass formation is that it
is so extreme.

445
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:31,200
It is an extreme collectivism.

446
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,639
Life is good and society is fruitful if there
is a balance between individualism and

447
00:29:36,639 --> 00:29:37,319
collectivism.

448
00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:42,000
And that's what is completely disturbed in
the process of mass formation.

449
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,240
We see this extreme collectivism in which
people participate in rituals without being

450
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:53,599
aware that they participate in the rituals
and with an absurd willingness to sacrifice

451
00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:58,439
everything, their wealth, their health, the
future of their children, the lives of their

452
00:29:58,439 --> 00:30:06,559
children, everything in order to belong to
that mentally intoxicating collective...

453
00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:07,759
that mass formation is.

454
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,639
I mean, it's so fascinating when you say it.

455
00:30:09,639 --> 00:30:13,279
I just think about, you know, ritual when I
think about, you know, people that lash

456
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:16,319
themselves, you know, as that's getting them
closer to God.

457
00:30:16,639 --> 00:30:24,079
You know, the more intense it is, the more
I'm committing to my goal to to to deliver

458
00:30:24,079 --> 00:30:26,440
this connection, to deliver my focus.

459
00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:30,519
And, you know, when you think about when you
say hypnosis, I think it really I mean,

460
00:30:30,919 --> 00:30:33,559
I've been throwing that term away, like
everyone's hypnotized.

461
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:38,440
But if you really take that on, that the
hypnosis is the singular thought of stopping

462
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,240
the virus. So it doesn't matter if yesterday
the terms change or every day the vaccine

463
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,919
that now it's now take three shots, five
shots, two masks, whatever it is, we'll keep

464
00:30:47,919 --> 00:30:53,839
doing it because to stop doing it would mean
to go back to that space of being...

465
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,240
which has got to be a horrifying place to be.

466
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,799
Right. We don't want to go back there.

467
00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:02,440
So we'll do anything to hold on to what we
think is giving us connection.

468
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,880
That's what's taking place. Right.

469
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,279
So it doesn't matter.

470
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,519
We're not going to be derailed from our goal.

471
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,759
Exactly. That's what happens.

472
00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:16,279
But that that that is true for a for a rather
small part of the population.

473
00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:21,200
Only 20 or 30 percent of the population is
really into the process of mass formation,

474
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,920
is really in the process of hypnosis, you
could say.

475
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,920
OK. OK.

476
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:31,559
The rest of the population, 60 or 70, 75
percent, knows that there is something wrong

477
00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:36,839
with the narrative, feels that there is
something wrong, but they just don't go...

478
00:31:36,839 --> 00:31:42,599
the masses because they prefer the comfort of
remaining silent.

479
00:31:42,919 --> 00:31:48,759
And they think that everybody will everything
will well change if they just remain

480
00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:52,440
silent. And there is only a small minority of
the people who knows that there is something

481
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,159
wrong with the narrative, who really sees
what is happening and who also decides to

482
00:31:56,159 --> 00:31:58,639
speak out and to go against the masses.

483
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,759
And it's this group that is crucial.

484
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,480
This group is crucial.

485
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:11,680
This group should know that one, they won't
succeed in waking up the masses through

486
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:12,920
rational argumentation.

487
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,040
That's impossible.

488
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,759
The mechanism is just too strong.

489
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,040
But and that's crucial.

490
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:24,440
It's not because this group does not succeed
through speaking out and waking up the masses

491
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,320
that speech has no effect.

492
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,359
Their speech has a huge effect.

493
00:32:29,679 --> 00:32:35,399
It constantly disturbs the process of mass
formation, constantly disrupts it.

494
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,159
And it makes sure the speech of the dissonant
voice, the sound of a dissonant voice,

495
00:32:40,159 --> 00:32:45,599
makes sure that the process of mass formation
is constantly disturbed.

496
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:52,240
And Gustave Le Bon, one of the most famous
mass psychologists in the world, or he wrote

497
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,799
his books in the 19th century, mentioned
already that if there are people who continue

498
00:32:56,799 --> 00:33:02,240
to speak out in a quiet way without really
trying to convince the other people, but

499
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,599
just fulfilling the ethical duty to speak out
as a human being, that they will make

500
00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:14,839
sure that the mass formation does not reach
this level in which the masses and their

501
00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:22,039
leaders become convinced that it is justified
to eliminate and destroy everyone who

502
00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:26,279
doesn't go along with them by speaking out,
by speaking our truth.

503
00:33:26,319 --> 00:33:31,480
We have got to hold on to that, because if we
don't, there's potential that that mass

504
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,799
could just say, let's just get rid of that
group of people.

505
00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:38,920
There's still a humanity in them that we can
key into.

506
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:45,920
Now, when you say it's a small group of
people that in the opposition side, roughl...

507
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:53,080
you said, are just dedicated to the mass,
then are we talking 15, 20% tend to just

508
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,640
rebel against or be critical thinkers, or is
it less than that?

509
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,279
It depends on the stage of the process of
mass formation, but very often it's only

510
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:03,480
5% or something.

511
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:04,480
But that's enough.

512
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:05,480
That's enough.

513
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,480
That's enough.

514
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,280
If these people succeed in forming a group, a
group that is not a mass, that's extremely

515
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,200
important, because that's the entire
challenge, that this small group is also...

516
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,960
a lot of anxiety, a lot of frustration, a lot
of aggression, it feels threatened, and

517
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,280
it might become a mass itself.

518
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,560
And in that case, there is a strong
polarization, polarization in society, and...

519
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,160
usually is destroyed in the end, just because
you have two groups, two masses, functioning

520
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,280
according to the same destructive principles.

521
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,040
And usually the small group is destroyed.

522
00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:42,920
And after the small group is destroyed, the
masses will start to destroy themselves.

523
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,920
But the small group should be coming through.

524
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,159
I'll be honest with you, that was the
question I was going to have in all the wo...

525
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:54,079
been watching you do is, you just answered,
but I was going to ask you, is there a...

526
00:34:54,079 --> 00:35:01,239
to start using some of these tactics from the
other side, saying, why don't we create

527
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:02,239
ritual?

528
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,719
Why don't we use things to start enrolling
people in a mass?

529
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,920
Is it just one mass against another?

530
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,039
So you're saying if that's attempted, that
that just ends up, you won't get the critical

531
00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:17,200
mass side, you'll be outnumbered and you'll
create a friction that will end up getting

532
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,720
the smaller group eradicated.

533
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:23,440
Yes, we should not form a mass.

534
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,599
We should form a group, a healthy group of
people, and which means that a group that

535
00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:31,680
is formed because people connect to each
other.

536
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,960
People develop strong connections with each
other in several ways.

537
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,679
It can be realized in several ways.

538
00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:45,159
But and also one major difference between a
mass and a fruitful group, a humane group

539
00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:53,360
is that this last group acknowledges and
accepts that everybody has his own opinion.

540
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:59,360
So in the small group that doesn't go along
with the mass, we should avoid to impose one

541
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,480
opinion to everyone.

542
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,159
Everyone should be capable of looking at
things in his own way, of having his own

543
00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:06,159
opinion.

544
00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:07,920
Everybody should speak in his own way.

545
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,000
And that will be very effective in the end.

546
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,000
It will be very effective.

547
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,000
That's so important.

548
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,000
Yeah.

549
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:19,240
I have this conversation all the time when
there's arguments from our side, whether you

550
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:25,360
call it vaccine risk awareness or these
movements for health freedom, let's call i...

551
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,240
They're always getting together and saying
we've got to come up with a common slogan,

552
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,639
a singular idea, a statement, something we
all stand behind.

553
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:39,159
I've kind of been, you know, not as well
educated on the matter, but saying I think...

554
00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:43,379
that we have different thoughts about why
we're having an issue here.

555
00:36:43,379 --> 00:36:48,439
You sort of just gave me a deeper
understanding of that, because what it is...

556
00:36:48,439 --> 00:36:53,000
who we are, that makes us critical thinkers
and makes us appealing to those that are...

557
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,039
in that larger group that are still feeling I
feel like there's something wrong.

558
00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:00,519
Maybe I really want to involve my critical
thinking more.

559
00:37:00,519 --> 00:37:05,920
If we stop critically thinking and all
becomes some homogenized, pasteurized, you...

560
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:11,179
singular perspective, then there's no appeal
there anymore to even be a part of that.

561
00:37:11,179 --> 00:37:15,920
So we lose the individual nature and then all
is lost.

562
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:16,920
Exactly.

563
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:17,920
Exactly.

564
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,840
And we don't have to form a group who has the
same opinion.

565
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:28,280
We have to form a group who sticks to the
same common principles of humanity.

566
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:29,519
That's the point.

567
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:36,820
We have to, what got lost throughout the last
few hundred years was that we started

568
00:37:36,820 --> 00:37:43,400
to believe that the human rational mind,
rational understanding, should be the...

569
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,840
the basis of society and of living together.

570
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,280
And that's not true.

571
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:56,120
The entire history of science actually showed
us that rational knowledge is very limited

572
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:03,600
and that what we need, that only principles,
principles of ethical principles and the...

573
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,680
of humanity, which can never be articulated
in a definitive way, we always have to...

574
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,880
them and to re-articulate them.

575
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:17,960
But it are only these principles can be the
real basis of a human living together.

576
00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:23,159
And that's what this group, this group that
doesn't go along with the masses, will...

577
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:24,840
in the years to come.

578
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:32,320
They will reinvent, they will see, they will
probably be excommunicated to a certain...

579
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,039
and they will have to stick to their
principles, to the principles of humanity ...

580
00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:40,039
is becoming increasingly inhumane.

581
00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:46,039
I explained that in a much more elaborate way
in my book, but that's exactly what the

582
00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:52,400
new kind of society, the new kind of living
together should move to.

583
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:58,920
We should establish a society which
recognizes again the central importance of...

584
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,019
of humanity for human living together.

585
00:39:01,019 --> 00:39:05,320
Rational knowledge in the end is always
extremely irrational.

586
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:06,320
Irrational.

587
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,920
And it can never be, it is important to be
rational, but it can never be the cornerstone

588
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,039
and the basis of human living together.

589
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:18,039
So let's look at where we're at now then.

590
00:39:18,039 --> 00:39:22,519
I mean, I think I know that we could go on
and on in all the details of what puts this

591
00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:27,119
together, but I want to talk about the moment
we find ourselves in now.

592
00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:33,519
You know, much of your work has been made
famous by great experts like Dr. Peter...

593
00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:36,679
Dr. Robert Malone and others around the
world.

594
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:38,960
But that was in the middle of this pandemic.

595
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,159
We were locked down in many ways.

596
00:39:41,279 --> 00:39:45,759
Now some things have happened that I want to
ask you about, because, you know, I'm

597
00:39:45,759 --> 00:39:50,440
a pathological optimist, if you will.

598
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,239
I always fight in a good fight.

599
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,519
I will no matter what.

600
00:39:53,519 --> 00:39:57,599
I always believe in the possibility that
we're winning.

601
00:39:57,599 --> 00:39:59,039
I keep saying we're winning.

602
00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:00,199
I feel like we're winning.

603
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:02,359
Our perspective is growing.

604
00:40:02,359 --> 00:40:07,279
All around the world, you know, we may be the
5%, but we really seem to be growing.

605
00:40:07,279 --> 00:40:08,839
And I think there's proof of that.

606
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,240
There's a couple of things that have happened
here in America.

607
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,160
Just, you know, I don't know, it was a month
or two ago.

608
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,519
I lose track of time.

609
00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:20,480
But when they lifted the mask mandate, when
the when the judge in a courtroom said, you

610
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:26,079
know, the masks, you know, it was not legal
to be mandated and mask on airplanes.

611
00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:29,600
And so they broke that mandate immediately.

612
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,880
It felt like 70% of the country took their
masks off.

613
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:34,880
Right.

614
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:45,000
And so in some ways that fits your model that
there was that sort of 60 or 70% that

615
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,240
were only going along with it because it was
what they were told to do, but had a bad

616
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:50,240
feeling about it.

617
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:52,760
They immediately ripped their masks off.

618
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,800
But what happens to that group?

619
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,000
You know, we can say that that group is
there.

620
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:03,480
But what happens the moment they are told it
was a falsehood?

621
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,240
It was not real.

622
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:10,000
Doesn't that have the ability to shift the
power of the mask?

623
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,240
If all of a sudden, you know, the curtain is
pulled back and you realize it really is

624
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:19,000
just a four and a half foot tall wizard
that's been doing this whole thing.

625
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,900
Does it make it harder for that group of
people to be taken back into a mass format...

626
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:29,840
they have this moment where that sinking
feeling inside of them, which was, you kno...

627
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:30,840
wrong about this.

628
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:31,840
This doesn't feel right.

629
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,220
And then a court decides it and the country
goes along with it.

630
00:41:36,220 --> 00:41:40,840
Is it possible that that shifts the numbers
perhaps in another direction?

631
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,160
I have another example for you.

632
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:48,000
I've been saying that, you know, one of the
issues I've dealt with is vaccination long

633
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:53,320
before covid that we need to be doing more
proper safety studies and more transparency

634
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,640
around this entire idea.

635
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,200
And one of the things Bill Gates was really
worried about, I consider him to be one of

636
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:04,000
the architects of the insanity we find
ourselves in the middle of.

637
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,000
I could be right.

638
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,500
Maybe I could be wrong.

639
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:07,519
Maybe it's someone bigger than him.

640
00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:08,960
But that's not the point.

641
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:15,239
He's been worried that the sort of, as he
said, the collapse of the confidence in the

642
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,779
covid vaccine, he's concerned it will
collapse the confidence in the vaccine...

643
00:42:20,779 --> 00:42:26,000
We have a poll out of Iowa, which is a state
that we tend to look at to how the country

644
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,480
is going to vote on things when we have
political decisions to be made.

645
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:34,000
So the poll says Iowans support for non covid
vaccine requirements in school erodes.

646
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,920
Just 34 percent of Iowa adults now say all
children should be required to receive...

647
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,719
shots unless they have a doctor's sign
statement showing they have a medical reas...

648
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:43,719
be vaccinated.

649
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:49,119
The poll shows that's down from 59 percent
who supported such a requirement in 2015 when

650
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:53,000
the Iowa poll asked a similar question about
childhood vaccinations.

651
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,000
And here's the chart.

652
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,039
You know, 34 percent require all children.

653
00:42:57,039 --> 00:42:59,480
The rest represent all these different
perspectives.

654
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,300
Not sure there's no laws, you know, on and
on.

655
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:08,360
So at 34 percent now of Iowans actually
believe in a mandated vaccine program wher...

656
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,119
to covid that was 69 percent.

657
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:18,400
So that shows me that in some ways the
minority has now become the majority in th...

658
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,440
around one of these ritualistic tools that
was used.

659
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,840
Would that give you some hope that there is a
shift that's happening, maybe a shift

660
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:28,840
that's possible?

661
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:35,280
Yes, I definitely do believe that a shift is
possible, but maybe not immediately, because

662
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,240
I think that it's not because people have a
certain answer in the poll that they may

663
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:40,880
also start to speak out.

664
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,000
And that's what we need.

665
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,880
More people have to speak out.

666
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,360
So I think that there is one problem with
mass formation.

667
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,039
I'm also very optimistic in the long term, in
the longer term.

668
00:43:50,039 --> 00:43:54,960
In the short term, I think we will face
several difficult and tough years.

669
00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:02,039
But you know, there is one problem with once
a large scale mass formation emerged in a

670
00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:07,679
society, they usually follows a second, a
third and a fourth one and so on.

671
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:10,159
Just because of this.

672
00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:18,039
I just a few minutes ago, I explained that
the most crucial condition for mass formation

673
00:44:18,039 --> 00:44:21,159
is the state of disconnectedness and
loneliness.

674
00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:27,079
And then I said that this mass formation
seems to reconnect people to each other, t...

675
00:44:27,079 --> 00:44:28,480
a social bond.

676
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:29,759
But it doesn't.

677
00:44:29,759 --> 00:44:34,119
It actually only creates a bond between the
individual and the collective.

678
00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:41,119
And it destroys the bonds further between the
individuals, meaning that after a mass

679
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:46,960
formation, there is even more people in a
disconnected state, in an isolated state

680
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:48,119
than before.

681
00:44:48,119 --> 00:44:49,839
And that's what we see now.

682
00:44:49,839 --> 00:44:54,480
People are allowed, students are allowed to
come back to university now, but they don't

683
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:55,759
show up anymore.

684
00:44:55,759 --> 00:44:58,239
Only 5% shows up anymore.

685
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,000
People are allowed to go back to their
company, to their work, but they don't sho...

686
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,000
at their work.

687
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,799
They prefer to stay home and work online.

688
00:45:04,799 --> 00:45:08,799
That's why Elon Musk said that everybody
should come or that they would fire them.

689
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,560
Around the world, we see the same phenomenon.

690
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,080
People are allowed to leave their houses
again, to go back to work, to go back to...

691
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,000
to go back to social meetings, and they don't
do so anymore.

692
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:27,160
That shows the dramatic psychological impact
of this first, this large scale mass...

693
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:32,160
And it is exactly this mass formation that's
so dramatic.

694
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,480
It creates the conditions for mass formation
even more.

695
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,199
And once a first mass formation disappears a
little bit in the background, usually a

696
00:45:41,199 --> 00:45:43,960
second one emerges immediately.

697
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,280
And that's probably what we have seen with
the war in Ukraine.

698
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,760
We saw exactly the same phenomenon.

699
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:57,519
We saw this fanatic black-white thinking,
this common enemy, this willingness to...

700
00:45:57,519 --> 00:45:59,679
this intolerance for dissonant voices.

701
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:01,800
We noticed all these same characteristics.

702
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:08,560
And now we will probably see that in a few
months, maybe even in a few weeks, we don't

703
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,920
know this corona narrative might lead again
to a mass formation.

704
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:23,200
And then the real question is, what will the
people of the middle group do?

705
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,360
I also think that a part of the middle group
will switch to our position and will start

706
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,400
to speak out and say, look, we don't tolerate
this anymore.

707
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:41,519
But I think that at the same time, while the
critical group grows, increases, we will

708
00:46:41,519 --> 00:46:47,720
all probably see that the system or those who
identify with mainstream discourse become

709
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:51,599
more repressive and more intolerant and more
aggressive.

710
00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:53,320
That usually is the case.

711
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:59,700
But in the end, they will exhaust themselves
and destroy themselves.

712
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:07,680
But we just have to make sure that they
destroy themselves before they destroy us.

713
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,519
And that's why it is so crucial that we
continue to speak out, because we can see...

714
00:47:13,519 --> 00:47:21,080
time again in history that these mass
formations that ultimately lead to a...

715
00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:25,920
which always emerges as a kind of diabolic
pact between the masses and their leaders

716
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:26,920
and the elite.

717
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:34,079
We see that these systems typically start
their destruction campaigns shortly after

718
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:36,279
the dissonant voice stopped to speak out.

719
00:47:36,279 --> 00:47:41,279
That happened in 1930 in the Soviet Union and
around 1935 in Nazi Germany.

720
00:47:41,279 --> 00:47:45,440
The resistance chose to go underground to
stop speaking out.

721
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,480
And a few months later, within a period of
six months, the destruction campaign started.

722
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,320
And in other countries, there were numerous
mass formations in other countries, numerous

723
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,760
totalitarian systems that started to emerge
in other countries.

724
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,480
But the resistance refused to shut up.

725
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,719
And the mass formation didn't go on until the
last stage.

726
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,079
So I cannot repeat that enough.

727
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:11,000
It's the central message of my book as well.

728
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,760
And on the short term, we should continue to
speak out.

729
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,800
On the long term, we have to do something
more profound.

730
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,000
We have to move on to a different, a new view
on man in the world.

731
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:27,680
Our rationalist view on man in the world is
outdated and it should be replaced by a truly

732
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,560
enlightened view on man in the world, which
is based on another kind of knowledge than

733
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,320
rational knowledge.

734
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,680
It's all really important.

735
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,080
It's something that I keep saying.

736
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,640
We've got to talk to each other.

737
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,800
It's been my simple message here from the
beginning.

738
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,720
The reason we're in this situation is they
let us believe that, you know, we should be

739
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:46,959
afraid to talk politics.

740
00:48:46,959 --> 00:48:48,359
We should be afraid to talk religion.

741
00:48:48,359 --> 00:48:50,599
Don't have those conversations at the dinner
table.

742
00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:53,919
Slowly but surely, we've been isolated so
that we don't talk.

743
00:48:53,919 --> 00:48:55,839
We don't share our perspective.

744
00:48:55,839 --> 00:49:00,319
Even if we disagree, it's so important to
have the conversation.

745
00:49:00,319 --> 00:49:04,719
I think that, you know, I hope my audience
just heard what you said, that even though

746
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,279
we're seeing polls, polls don't change
anything if the people stay silent about it.

747
00:49:09,279 --> 00:49:13,000
It only changes something if it gets people
to start talking.

748
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:18,320
If that group in the middle that is once
silent starts to talk, then you really see

749
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:19,320
a change.

750
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:24,800
Otherwise, all it is is just another
intellectual experience feeding into the...

751
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,199
the formation on some level.

752
00:49:27,199 --> 00:49:29,639
And we're still back to trying to find
meaning.

753
00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:34,559
My last question to you, and I could ask you
questions all day, but it comes to in some

754
00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:37,480
ways, you know, we get very scientific about
this.

755
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:42,280
I'm not going to ask you about your personal
spiritual life, but in many ways, I wonder

756
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:49,519
there seems to be a death of churches, a
death of religion, a death of these...

757
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:52,400
at least in America, in our society.

758
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:53,400
Prayer is disappearing.

759
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:54,480
All these things.

760
00:49:54,480 --> 00:50:00,200
Now, whether or not I'm not going to ask you
about whether you believe God exists, but

761
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:06,960
people who believe in God that go to church
that have religions get meaning from those

762
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:07,960
things.

763
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:08,960
Do they not?

764
00:50:09,039 --> 00:50:15,039
My question is, do we become more vulnerable
when we let go of these things that perhaps

765
00:50:15,039 --> 00:50:17,000
have some of their own rituals to it?

766
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,880
But they do give us meaning and they do bring
us together to community.

767
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:21,880
Do you know?

768
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,519
And I know that in Nazi Germany, you shut
down the church.

769
00:50:24,519 --> 00:50:25,960
I mean, is all of that?

770
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:33,280
How much does a spiritual life matter when we
think to moving into an evolved society?

771
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:34,599
It depends what you're talking about.

772
00:50:34,599 --> 00:50:39,679
It depends whether you're talking about
dogmatic institutionalized religion or about

773
00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:41,719
the seminal religious experience.

774
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:47,239
I believe that the first one, dogmatic and
institutionalized religion, it can be a mass

775
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:48,239
formation in itself.

776
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,960
It's not the type of mass formation that we
see now.

777
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:57,639
But the seminal religious experience
definitely protects against mass formation.

778
00:50:57,639 --> 00:51:02,679
And you can ask me about my personal opinion
about that or about my personal position.

779
00:51:02,679 --> 00:51:04,679
I have no problem answering that.

780
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:12,440
You know, in my book, I explained that the
root cause of mass formation and of...

781
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:18,039
this kind of state that is based on mass
formation, ultimately is situated at the...

782
00:51:18,039 --> 00:51:23,440
rationalist, mechanist, materialist view on
man and the world.

783
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:28,639
Since the beginning of the tradition of
enlightenment, the beginning of the 16th...

784
00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:33,440
we started to believe or a major part of
population started to believe that the...

785
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:39,599
is a material system, a dead mechanic, a dead
machine that function, a set of elementary

786
00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:47,039
particles that behaves according to the laws
of mechanics and that can be perfectly...

787
00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:51,839
in rationalist terms, that can be perfectly
rationally understood.

788
00:51:51,840 --> 00:52:00,039
And it is this kind of thinking that is the
first step to disconnect people from their

789
00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:01,039
environment.

790
00:52:01,039 --> 00:52:06,000
And I've experienced that in my own life in a
very concrete, intangible way.

791
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:13,840
I was really convinced when I was in between
16 and my 35 years old, or maybe, well, I

792
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:21,600
was convinced that reality could be
understood in a strictly rational way.

793
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,759
And it took me until I was 35 years old to
start to understand, just by starting to

794
00:52:26,759 --> 00:52:31,880
understand the mathematical basis of systems
theory, actually, I started to understand

795
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,480
that this simply wasn't true.

796
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,960
It was a revelation for me.

797
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:40,079
It was like I suddenly started to understand
that the reality and that what we call the

798
00:52:40,079 --> 00:52:47,960
facts, nature around us, that it behaves
intrinsically irrational and systems theor...

799
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:49,279
a very nice way.

800
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:58,880
And that made me, it really changed the way
in which I existed, because I think if we

801
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,920
are convinced that logical understanding can
explain everything, then what we actually

802
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,600
do is like we connect the one logical idea to
the other.

803
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:14,480
It is as if we build a closed wall of logical
argumentations around us.

804
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,840
And in this way, we truly disconnect from the
world around us.

805
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:25,280
And as soon as soon we try to force
everything in the categories of our own...

806
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:30,559
And in this way, we don't really see the
mystery around us anymore, the mystery of...

807
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:36,119
And as soon as you start to become aware of
the fact that your logical understanding is

808
00:53:36,119 --> 00:53:41,920
very limited, and all major scientists
concluded that I could give endless exampl...

809
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,559
as you start to understand that it is as if
all these building blocks slide away from

810
00:53:46,559 --> 00:53:48,079
each other a little bit.

811
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:54,639
There are holes in the wall and the
vibration, the eternal music of life aroun...

812
00:53:54,639 --> 00:54:00,320
go through the wall, through the holes and
make the strings in yourself resonate.

813
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,320
I literally describe it like that in my book.

814
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:09,079
And I'm sure that quite literally, the human
being is a kind of string instrument.

815
00:54:09,079 --> 00:54:13,319
It's a kind of string instrument that can
resonate with the things around us.

816
00:54:13,319 --> 00:54:20,039
And that is this kind of knowledge that all
scientists or major scientists I'm referring

817
00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:26,719
to, whether we are talking about Schrödinger,
Bohr, Heisenberg, Max Planck, Lawrence,...

818
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:33,199
Janos Bolleai or René Thom, all these
scientists concluded that it is this...

819
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:40,199
this empathically resonating knowledge that
is the knowledge that connects us to the

820
00:54:40,199 --> 00:54:41,960
essence of life.

821
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:48,079
And it is that knowledge that also brings us
in touch with what I always refer to as

822
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:53,759
the eternal principles, the ethical
principles of life, the principles of...

823
00:54:53,759 --> 00:54:59,679
And it are these principles, what is crucial
for a human being is not in the end, not its

824
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:00,679
rational understanding.

825
00:55:00,679 --> 00:55:10,079
What is crucial to a human being is that it
has the courage and to stick to these...

826
00:55:10,079 --> 00:55:16,719
of humanity, even when it means that we will
lose a lot.

827
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,359
I think that is what is crucial to a human
being.

828
00:55:19,359 --> 00:55:24,079
We might lose a lot if we stick to these
principles in the years to come.

829
00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:29,639
But at the same time, we will win the only
thing that is truly important.

830
00:55:29,639 --> 00:55:37,480
For existence as a human being, and we will
prevent in this way that we fall prey to

831
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:42,599
this dehumanizing process that is so typical
for every kind of mass formation, for every

832
00:55:42,599 --> 00:55:47,920
kind of totalitarianism, and in the end for
the entire tradition of enlightenment, which

833
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:53,319
believed that rational understanding should
be the cornerstone of life.

834
00:55:53,319 --> 00:55:57,079
Matias Desmit, you know, so incredible.

835
00:55:57,079 --> 00:55:58,879
I knew I would dig this interview.

836
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,240
I want to do this again.

837
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:02,680
We're going to have to, I want to get
together.

838
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:03,680
I want to have tea.

839
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,079
I want to get deeper on this.

840
00:56:05,079 --> 00:56:07,760
But of course, there's not enough time in a
day.

841
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:09,599
So I want to thank you for taking the time,
folks.

842
00:56:09,599 --> 00:56:10,599
This is the book.

843
00:56:10,599 --> 00:56:15,480
It comes out today, The Psychology of
Totalitarianism by Matias Desmit.

844
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:19,360
Obviously, you've just got a sense of what it
is like to talk to him.

845
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,760
This is a must read book.

846
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,360
I'm sure you're going to make it run off the
shelves.

847
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:27,200
Matias, I want to thank you so much for
taking the time to join us today.

848
00:56:27,199 --> 00:56:31,519
And I want to thank you for your work and
your optimism.

849
00:56:31,519 --> 00:56:37,639
It can be difficult to have optimism, but you
are truly an important voice in this world

850
00:56:37,639 --> 00:56:38,799
right now.

851
00:56:38,799 --> 00:56:44,919
And I want to thank you for continuing to
speak and inspire us all to do the same.

852
00:56:44,919 --> 00:56:47,519
Likewise, though, it was a pleasure to hear
it, truly.

853
00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:49,919
And I really appreciate it that you invited
me.

854
00:56:49,919 --> 00:56:50,919
Thanks.

855
00:56:50,919 --> 00:56:51,919
Absolutely.

856
00:56:51,919 --> 00:56:52,919
Take care.

857
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:57,639
Well, you know, there's so many examples we
run into all the time of this sort of mass

858
00:56:57,639 --> 00:56:58,800
formation.

859
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,240
What if you're caught right in the middle of
it?

860
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:03,780
What happens when one is that we imagine if
you can catch on video right when somebody

861
00:57:03,780 --> 00:57:07,579
that believes, you know, that they're
connecting, they have a connection, they h...

862
00:57:07,579 --> 00:57:08,639
they figured it out.

863
00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:13,460
And then you ask them a question that
actually might just break through.

864
00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:15,039
Here is a man on the street interview.

865
00:57:15,039 --> 00:57:20,320
We saw just look at these people's eyes as
they battle with the reality and the truth

866
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:24,840
that goes against their mass formation.

867
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,000
What's important is bodily autonomy, the same
right men have always had.

868
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,880
We just want equal rights, the right to
govern our own bodies, just like men have...

869
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:32,880
had.

870
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:33,880
It's that simple.

871
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:35,960
Do you support the right for people to not
get the COVID vaccine?

872
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:36,960
It's irrelevant.

873
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:37,960
Right.

874
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:38,960
My body, my choice.

875
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:39,960
You're right.

876
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:40,960
It's not irrelevant.

877
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:41,960
Yeah, but one saves lives.

878
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:42,960
You're right.

879
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:43,960
It's not irrelevant.

880
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:49,240
One of them is going to be in a pandemic
state, right?

881
00:57:49,239 --> 00:57:52,959
A state of emergency, which we all know laws
change during a state of emergency.

882
00:57:52,959 --> 00:57:56,399
You agree with the statement or the principle
of my body, my choice?

883
00:57:56,399 --> 00:57:57,879
Yes, absolutely.

884
00:57:57,879 --> 00:57:59,279
Bodily autonomy is a human right.

885
00:57:59,279 --> 00:58:02,439
Health care is a human right.

886
00:58:02,439 --> 00:58:06,359
Access to health care should not be something
that is dictated by the Supreme Court.

887
00:58:06,359 --> 00:58:15,359
During the pandemic, did you support people's
right to not get the COVID vaccine?

888
00:58:15,359 --> 00:58:17,319
It's a difficult conversation.

889
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,360
Do you support bodily autonomy in other
situations?

890
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,680
For example, the COVID vaccine mandates?

891
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,200
We've been mandated to get vaccines for years
and years and years.

892
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,920
You do support in that situation people not
having control of their bodies?

893
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,720
That's not having not control of your bodies.

894
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:35,720
I don't understand.

895
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:41,039
Do you think it is important for people to
have medical and health control of their own

896
00:58:41,039 --> 00:58:42,039
body?

897
00:58:42,039 --> 00:58:44,160
Yeah, it's good for them.

898
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:45,160
It's good for everybody.

899
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,160
You didn't support the mandates?

900
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:49,000
I did.

901
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,000
I do support the mandates.

902
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,480
Isn't that a mandate that people have to get
the vaccine so they don't have control

903
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:56,639
of their own body?

904
00:58:56,639 --> 00:58:57,639
Vaccinations are good for people.

905
00:58:57,639 --> 00:59:00,039
But in that case, you don't have control,
right?

906
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:01,039
If there's a mandate?

907
00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:02,039
No, they don't have to get it.

908
00:59:02,039 --> 00:59:03,039
Biggest...

909
00:59:03,039 --> 00:59:05,039
You just can't go anywhere or do anything,
right?

910
00:59:05,039 --> 00:59:06,039
You just can't have a job.

911
00:59:06,039 --> 00:59:08,159
You don't have a right to a job.

912
00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:10,519
Everybody should have a right to do what they
want with their bodies.

913
00:59:10,519 --> 00:59:14,039
Do you support the people's right to choose
not to get the COVID vaccine?

914
00:59:14,039 --> 00:59:16,559
I'm not doing that.

915
00:59:18,079 --> 00:59:19,079
It's really amazing.

916
00:59:19,079 --> 00:59:23,960
I mean, I have to tell you, after speaking
with Matias, when you look at it as though

917
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,039
everyone is hypnotized, it makes so much more
sense.

918
00:59:27,039 --> 00:59:31,039
Like, if you walk up to a hypnotized person,
someone you could chop off their arm in a

919
00:59:31,039 --> 00:59:34,879
surgery and they wouldn't feel it, and you
hit them with a direct question like, do you

920
00:59:34,879 --> 00:59:39,839
not see that this is in diametric opposition
to what you just said?

921
00:59:39,839 --> 00:59:41,639
My body, my choice.

922
00:59:41,639 --> 00:59:44,159
But you're down with the government forcibly
injecting you with a product.