1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,760 This podcast is part one of two on weaponizing brain science. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:11,280 The weaponizing brain science podcasts are part of a broader series on neuroscience and 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,200 national security, which can be found on the HDIAC website. 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:22,800 Hello and welcome to the Homeland Defense and Security Information Analysis Center, 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,800 HDIAC podcast. 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:30,280 HDIAC is one of three defense technical information center, basic center of operation. 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,800 The US has a wide variety of technical areas that are important to the department of 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:35,800 defense. 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,760 They provide users with focused, expert, technical consulting, and unbiased scientific and 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,240 technical information through end up analysis and product creation. 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,800 My name is Mara Kearnan, I'm the lead analyst at the HDIAC. 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,720 This podcast is the second installment in a multi-part series on the intersection of neuroscience 13 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:54,720 and national security. 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,720 Today's podcast will focus on neuroscience and weaponizing brain science. 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,720 To talk about this topic, I'm excited to welcome Dr. James Duradano. 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,840 Dr. Geradano is a professor and departments of neurology and biochemistry, chief of the 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,640 neuroethic studies program and co-director of the O'Neill Polygreno Program in Brain Science 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,280 and Global Law and Policy at Georgetown University Medical Center. 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,000 He is a research fellow and bio-security technology and ethics at the US able war 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:26,000 college and a pointed member of DARPA's neuroethics, legal and social issues and advisory 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,000 panel. 22 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,920 Senior advisory fellow of the defense operational cognitive science section, strategic multilayer, 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,200 assessment group, joint staff, and Pentagon. 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,560 And a consulting bioethic is for the defense medical ethics committee. 25 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:43,440 He is previously served as a Donovan fellow for bio warfare and bio defense at US Special Operations 26 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,120 Command and has an appointed member of the Department of Health and Human Services Secretaries 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,960 Advisory Committee on Human Research Protection. 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,680 So with that introduction, Dr. Geradano, thanks so much for joining us today. 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,440 Thanks, it's great to be back, thank you very much. 30 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,600 So just to kick us off and to kind of level set before we got in deeper, can you define 31 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,880 what you mean by the word neuroweapons? 32 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:13,560 You know, the idea of using any instrument or method as means of contending against others 33 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,880 is a very formal definition of a weapon. 34 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,320 It did not be something that is more prevalent per se. 35 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,960 But again, my operational definition, what a weapon does is in some way, authors that 36 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:31,320 individuals, thoughts, emotions, behaviors, physical nature, health, in such a way that is 37 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:37,040 going to be more amenable to the individual who is yielding the weapon. 38 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:42,680 So in other words, I'm changing an individual stance towards me in some way and making 39 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:48,760 them engage in a stance that's more aligned with what I want them to be. 40 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,480 That's a formal definition of a weapon that comes right out of the Oxford English dictionary. 41 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,200 Clearly when we think of weapons, we think of things like bombs, tanks, planes, boats, 42 00:02:58,200 --> 00:02:59,200 soldiers. 43 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:00,200 And that's not incorrect. 44 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,920 I mean, I think the more colloquial use of a weapon represents some instrument that's 45 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:07,720 going to induce some kind of morbidity or mortality. 46 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:12,560 And when utilizing these delicose constructs, that's certainly one of the ideas of 47 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:13,560 weaponology. 48 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,960 But weaponology, as we discussed last time, can also include things that I do to my own 49 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,680 forces, whether it is the human resources, whether the actual forces themselves to make them 50 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:29,120 more efficient in their mission of national security and intelligence and defense, not only 51 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,560 terms of what I do to others. 52 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:38,000 In that sense, if we put the neuro prefix to weapon, what we're really looking at is harnessing 53 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,480 the neurological system both peripherally and centrally, and its functions of thought 54 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,760 emotions in behavior. 55 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,240 So as to the yield, instruments, methods, techniques, tactics and tools that can then 56 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,480 be leveraged against others. 57 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:58,840 So as for us to then gain some purchase over their thoughts, emotions, and conduct. 58 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:04,640 So a neuro weapon is essentially any weaponized method or tool that acts through the 59 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:10,400 nervous system or at the nervous system, upon the nervous system, to influence and change 60 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:16,000 the attitudes, feelings, thoughts, behaviors, and others. 61 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,000 Thanks for that overview. 62 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,040 So when we talk about neuro weapons, what types of technologies fall under that umbrella? 63 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:27,560 I mean, I think what is important to understand is that the basic technologies of the brain 64 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,320 scientists can be parsed into two general categories. 65 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,480 Very generally, those technologies that are used for assessing the brain and those technologies 66 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,760 that are used for accessing and affecting the brain. 67 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,000 And underneath those two general ideas, we can assess what's going on in individuals and 68 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,280 groups of individuals' brain. 69 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:50,400 So as to be able to gain some notion of what nodes and networks are involved in different 70 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,520 processes, of cognition, emotion, and various actions, and what their dispositions might 71 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:55,520 be. 72 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,760 And we can use those both as information as possible for reconnaissance targets, if you 73 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,720 will, to then affect those substrates, those processes and mechanisms. 74 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:10,320 Either indirectly through the use of narratives, memes, symbols, iconographies, psychological 75 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,240 operations, human terrain-teaming engagements, or more directly. 76 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,560 Now when we're talking about things that are direct, now we're talking about interventional 77 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:19,560 things. 78 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:24,320 And given the fact that the neurosciences are indeed a biomedical life science that also 79 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,760 can join the physical sciences. 80 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,520 Now what we're talking about is those things attend to fall under the rubric of biological 81 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:39,640 toxins and chemical weapons, broadly construed as drugs, microbes and bugs, toxins, devices, 82 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,160 and data. 83 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:47,360 And it's those, those latter two devices and data that are really becoming even more prominent 84 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:54,160 as a consideration and a concern with regard to international oversight and perhaps regulation 85 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:00,160 of what weaponology should and perhaps could be and how neural science and neurotechnologies 86 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,720 are then leverageable and employable as weapons on a variety of different fronts, not 87 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,880 only being used kinetically. 88 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:14,040 But increasingly being used as non-kinetic instruments to affect disruptive effects, rather 89 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,520 than destructive effects per se. 90 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,960 So a number of international weapons conventions governed the use of neuroweapons, given 91 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,280 those controls, could you talk a bit about the threat that neuroweapons posed today? 92 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:30,440 Well, you're right, you made a good point. 93 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,080 At present, the biological toxin weapons convention, chemical weapons convention along 94 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:39,400 with other signatory treaties and international law do place particular constraints and in some 95 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:45,840 cases, definable prescription against the development import export and use of a variety 96 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,360 of tools and techniques that would be viable as weapons. 97 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:53,400 Again, there are certain drugs, there are certain bugs, if you will, certain toxins that 98 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,200 are prescribed and constrained. 99 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,240 We understand that. 100 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,960 But where things become a little bit more amorphous and ambiguous is when we then begin 101 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,160 to discuss things like neurotechnological devices. 102 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,400 Certainly, these devices have gained in their sophistication and capability over the past 103 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,640 decade, decade and a half and their viability and potential value for use in various forms 104 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,280 of weaponology has increased as a consequence of not only their sophistication and capability, 105 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,280 but also their facility of being developed and being employed operationally. 106 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,560 In many cases, their technological readiness level and your military readiness level is up to 107 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:33,760 par, so as to at least consider forms of testing and deployment that would then render 108 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,080 them operational under a range of circumstances and conditions. 109 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,520 That has not escaped the the auspices of many of the groups that are participatory in 110 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:47,560 the biological toxins in weapons convention, most notably the Australia group that a couple 111 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:54,280 years ago at the review committee, the revcom, of the biological toxins in weapons convention, 112 00:07:54,280 --> 00:08:00,280 noted that these devices certainly need to be an increased focus and should be addressed 113 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,920 as part of the BTWC. 114 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,960 But beyond that, I think there are some interesting things that also need to be considered. 115 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,040 The last two things we're talking about were devices and data. 116 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,760 I think when we're talking about devices is not just the devices that are the neurodevices 117 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,760 themselves, but are there enabling devices? 118 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,160 Are there current technologies that can be then radically leveling that could then allow 119 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:28,240 the use of a variety of these different neuroscientific tools and techniques to then be implemented 120 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,960 as either instruments of mass disruption and or perhaps as tools of intermediate to mass 121 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,360 destruction. 122 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,360 In this case, what we're looking at is the use of drones, for example, unmanned vehicles, 123 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:45,240 aerial vehicles, ground vehicles, aquatic vehicles, to deliver payloads of various forms of 124 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,840 neurological chemicals, neurological microbes, whether those be bacteria and or viruses, 125 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:56,760 neurological toxins to a variety of different populations that range from the individual 126 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:02,520 to a fairly large aggregate of individuals utilizing multiple drones and or other forms 127 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,600 of unmanned vehicles. 128 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,040 The other thing that we're concerned about is certainly the use of gene editing techniques, 129 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,640 CRISPR cast nine cast twelve, not just taking a loan, but in concert with extent gene editing 130 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:15,880 techniques. 131 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:21,120 The relative ease of acquisition of these techniques and the relative ease of use, again, 132 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:28,000 this is not for the completely naive, but some with basic gene editing and or microbiological 133 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,680 skills and molecular biological skills could in fact utilize these techniques to modify 134 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:41,520 and existing micro and existing virus, perhaps even existing structures of various organisms 135 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:46,200 to create something that is modified or perhaps a new. 136 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:52,280 And the problem we have with that is that those particular new entities might not currently 137 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:57,200 be covered categorized by the biological toxins and weapons convention. 138 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,760 So here we have the opportunity to sidestep the scope and tenor of those conventions by creating 139 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:08,480 something new or modifying that here to for has not been listed as a weaponizable agent. 140 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,840 Furthermore, if we take a look at some other enabling technologies, for example, nanotechnology, 141 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:19,720 nanotechnology can be used to provide scaffolds or mice cells that then allow the auto assembly 142 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,920 of molecules in sight to allow their penetrants into a biological system. 143 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,720 They can work as shaperones. 144 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:30,560 As well, they can utilize these nanomaterials independently because of some of the characteristics 145 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,760 that the nanomaterials possess and some characteristics that can be imbued upon them. 146 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,360 Auto aggregation, clumping, disruption and these can have physiologically disruptive effects 147 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,360 when they introduce into a biological system. 148 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,520 And one of the more recent developments has demonstrated these types of nanomaterials are 149 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:47,680 aerosolizable. 150 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:49,360 We can spray them into the air. 151 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:55,120 Now, again, the aerosolizable field at present is rather limited in terms of its size and with regard 152 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,880 to its durability and its distance. 153 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:03,120 These are simply steps toward what may then be probabilities and door possibilities 154 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,120 of how nanomaterials might be used either alone and or in tandem with other things 155 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:13,960 to either be forced multipliers and potentiators or to be used as weaponizable entities themselves. 156 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:20,440 And last, but certainly not least, is the idea of weaponized data, weaponized information. 157 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,920 And my colleague Diane DeUless from National Defense University and working with our Senior 158 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,720 scholar Joe DeFranco now, I'm George Mason University working with some of our colleagues down 159 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:36,720 at so-combed and now at AfWorks appear in the DC area, Lieutenant Colonel Jennifer Snow. 160 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:44,040 We've looked at how data might in fact be influential with regard to a force multiplication, 161 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:49,600 not only to engage, but the brain sciences are capable of doing, but also to engage the 162 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,280 brain sciences in weaponizable ways. 163 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:58,160 I would posit as a brain scientist myself that much of the contemporary trajectory of 164 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:03,760 what the brain sciences are recently doing and are intended to do or aiming to be done, 165 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:09,560 the larger scale and very innovative projects, for example, in imaging and brain mapping, 166 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:14,800 in trying to access the brain remotely on a variety of scales into engage the brain's functions 167 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,360 on a variety of scales, all require big data. 168 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,280 The main big data that is then yoked to some form of decision technology and or some 169 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,880 level of artificial intelligence to be able to sensibilize those data, simulate those data, 170 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,280 synthesize them, and use them in a real time accessible way. 171 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,320 Now of course, we're concerned about things like custodianship, proprietary nature of data, 172 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,960 access to the data and its relative hackability and all of these represent real concerns. 173 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:49,640 But more than that, I think, is the issue that to really force multiply the brain sciences 174 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:55,640 or any area of bioscience and technology utilizing big data, you require cells of data that 175 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:56,640 then must be yoked. 176 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,760 In other words, you have nodes and edges in networks of data that then allow this level 177 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:06,520 of real time acquisition, assimilation synthesis, use, dispersal. 178 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:11,680 And it's not so much the actual nodes themselves that we worry about with regard to their 179 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:17,560 hackability, but instead the networks, the edges of those nodes that allow their interaction 180 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:22,240 on a variety of scales and levels and magnitudes, and those are the things that the stack 181 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:28,360 ability of those nodes within networks really gives rise to their relative hackability. 182 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,480 And we're worried about in this concern, our number of things. 183 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:37,320 Number one, that the more data I have about an individual or groups of individuals, the 184 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,720 more information clearly I'm able to amass about them, and the more I can use that 185 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,920 information in a variety of ways. 186 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,560 Many ways that are benevolent, certainly, but also in ways that may be male-evolent. 187 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:52,640 And in other words, the more I know about you, the more I know where your relative 188 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,680 strengths, capabilities, weaknesses, and flaws lie, and the more I can target those things 189 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:00,880 in ways that are specific to you. 190 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,120 That can be across a range of dimensions. 191 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:04,560 It could be your biology. 192 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:06,440 It could be things that have to do with your psychology. 193 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,040 It could have to be things with your social engagement, or even something that has to do with 194 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:11,040 your economics. 195 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,840 So, what I'm able to do is vulnerable, as you by virtue of the amount of information I'm 196 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,000 able to put together about you, and then yoke that to other information. 197 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,440 I can track you in real time based upon your various movements and the various kinetics 198 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,040 that come out of your social media cell phone, and how you're using, for example, credit cards 199 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,880 and a variety of different low-sci in your geographies. 200 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,760 I can link you to others in your social chain. 201 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,960 Each one of those then becomes a viable nexus, which I can then vector some influential 202 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,640 effect, disruptively, or destructively. 203 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,320 If we take that down to the biological level, the more I know about you biologically in terms 204 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:53,840 of your genome and your genetics and particular aspects of your phenotype, the more I may be 205 00:14:53,840 --> 00:15:00,240 able to develop precision pathologies that can affect you specifically in ways that are unique 206 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,560 and peculiar to you. 207 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,280 And I can do that in a very up-close and personal way to disrupt a variety of your physiological 208 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:12,240 processes, and therefore create relative devastation, disruption, and destruction, perhaps 209 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,680 of the things that you are and the things that you do. 210 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,840 But I can go beyond that as well. 211 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:24,160 I can corrupt individuals data by inserting information very, very low level, manute information 212 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,840 that changes the entire tenor of the information about them. 213 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:34,440 In other words, the information that exists about you defines if you will, your online 214 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:35,440 presence. 215 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:40,640 It defines your cyber presence, your cyber identity, it is your cyber fingerprint, 216 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,480 retinal print. 217 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,680 And by altering those data in some way, by inserting things or admitting things from 218 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:54,760 your medical record, particularly things that are a bit obtuse or a bit amorphous. 219 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,800 What I may be able to do is to insert or remove certain things that are crucial to the 220 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,120 way you are regarded and the way you are treated. 221 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,400 I can, for example, put into your medical record that you have a familial history of psychiatric 222 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:14,120 disease or that you particularly have some underlying biological condition that may require 223 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,120 treatment or that may negate your treatment. 224 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:22,160 And as a consequence, the way you are not only regarded medically, publicly, politically, 225 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,720 legally and economically. 226 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,480 But the way you are engaged in the nature of your engagements can be affected on a variety 227 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,800 of scales, literally from the cellular all the way to the social. 228 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,160 So what we're talking about the viable weaponology of things in Europe or any really area 229 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,400 of bioscience in tech, but we're worried about as those scalar effects that are both 230 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:44,160 disruptive and ultimately vibrate with ripple destructive. 231 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,000 This has been part one of the weaponizing brain science podcast. 232 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,520 The conversation with Dr. Giordono continues from where it left off in part two, which 233 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,920 can be found on the HDIAC website.