1 00:00:08,519 --> 00:00:14,380 the Paris Center. Some of you may know Paris and the regular participants to our events. 2 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:19,199 For those of you who are not, let me just say the Paris Center is in this really special 3 00:00:19,199 --> 00:00:25,079 beautiful place in Italy in Tuscany and there we run in-person conferences and events and 4 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:37,679 series and also these kind of Zoom events, community events on the occasion of a book 5 00:00:37,679 --> 00:00:44,600 published or in this case, as you know, the 10-year anniversary of the banning of Rupert 6 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:54,600 Seldrik's TED talk on the topic of his book, The Science Delusion. So it's really, real... 7 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:08,000 no introduction, but let me say, he's an English biologist who did work in plant 8 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:17,120 also wrote the very same year I was born in 1981. He wrote his book, A New Kind of 9 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:23,640 he proposed this idea of morphic fields and that worked through morphic resonance by 10 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:39,719 the scientific establishment. We won't talk about that, but he got this editorial in a 11 00:01:39,719 --> 00:01:46,560 prestigious journal asking in a way or questioning whether one should burn that b... 12 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:52,959 attacking the Church of Orthodox Science. And so what we're gonna do today is we're gonn... 13 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:03,239 is kind enough to stay a bit longer. We'll open it up 25 minutes for Q&A and comments... 14 00:02:03,239 --> 00:02:09,280 your questions on the chat and also perhaps you'll have a chance to ask them live late... 15 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,960 gonna divide this conversation, which is going to be freely flowing, but more or le... 16 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:20,159 stages. One will be descriptive and Rupert will give us the background as to what 17 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,280 years. And then the third part will be more speculative as to what still needs to happen 18 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:39,599 for this change some of us are wishing and even working towards to happen. And withou... 19 00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:45,919 introduction, let me just say hi to Rupert and really thank you Rupert for agreeing t... 20 00:02:51,560 --> 00:03:00,599 Alex. A real pleasure. So would you like me to give something of the story? Yes. Well, 21 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:09,520 it started with a talk I gave in London in 19, in 2012 about my newly published book, 22 00:03:17,039 --> 00:03:23,680 said, they were organizing a TEDx event, and would I speak at it? And I said to them, 23 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:30,039 nothing personal about this, but the answer is no, because I don't like the TED 24 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:35,879 don't like the way they get all their speakers to do everything for free. And th... 25 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:46,800 year out of income from conferences for which the speakers have paid nothing. And I said, 26 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,080 I think it's a really bad model, the content creators get nothing, the brand gets 27 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,759 I'm completely against this, and I'm not against you, but I'm just against their wh... 28 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:11,520 Cosmo, came up to me. He was a student at Sussex University at the time. And he said, 29 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:17,000 Daddy, he said, you know, those girls that asked you to speak at the TEDx event, they're 30 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,439 organizing. So they're friends of mine at Sussex University. And they really, really 31 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,519 on the same platform on the same day. And I'd really like you to do it. And they really 32 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:37,920 want you to do it. So please. So I said, Oh, all right, then. So I agreed to do it thanks 33 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:44,319 to Cosmo's persuasion. And then the event took place. And it was had 200 people. It was 34 00:04:44,319 --> 00:04:50,399 sold out. It was a small hall in East London. It was recorded, put online, like other TED 35 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:06,360 it said on the tin. And I thought no more about it. And then exactly 10 years ago, I 36 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:12,279 with my wife, Joel Purse, in central India. We were in a remote part of Madhya Pradesh, 37 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:18,120 in the middle of India, staying at a small town called Maheshwar, a holy city on the 38 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,199 palaces. And there was just one room in the palace where occasionally you could get a 39 00:05:30,199 --> 00:05:36,639 flickering connection. And I managed, I thought I hadn't had emails for several da... 40 00:05:36,639 --> 00:05:42,339 got a flickering connection and a few emails came through. And they were messages from 41 00:05:42,339 --> 00:05:47,560 friends of mine said, Don't let them get you down. We're on your side. This is outrageous. 42 00:05:55,779 --> 00:06:01,240 a few days later with proper internet connection, I realised that this whole 43 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:10,959 banning my TED talk had been going on. And also Graham Hancock's talk from the same 44 00:06:10,959 --> 00:06:17,120 And Graham had been much more proactive than me in sort of publicising this. I hadn't 45 00:06:22,519 --> 00:06:28,399 to England, there'd been a huge controversy on the internet, debates raging all over the 46 00:06:28,399 --> 00:06:35,100 internet, dogmatic skeptics backing up the TED people, lots of other people really upset 47 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:42,120 about it. And a severe reputational damage for the whole TED organisation. And I got 48 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,720 saying, Could we have a talk on the telephone to discuss the problems? I said, Well, yes, 49 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:00,439 fine. And I gave him my number and he called me at an arranged time. And he then said, 50 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:06,199 Well, what can we do to help solve this problem together? And I said, Well, actual... 51 00:07:06,199 --> 00:07:12,079 created the problem, not me. I said, I gave a talk for free, talking on exactly the title 52 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:25,600 and censor it. So really, I think it's your problem, not mine. And then he said, Yes, 53 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:31,480 but it's becoming really difficult for us. And he said, Well, what can we do? And I 54 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,079 Well, the first thing you can do is publish the refutation I wrote of your so called 55 00:07:36,079 --> 00:07:42,000 boards reasons for taking my talk down. And he said, Well, we can't do that. And I said, 56 00:07:47,399 --> 00:07:54,000 a refutation is? And he said, We can't publish that you might upset the science 57 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:04,040 I said, Well, they've upset me. And so he he then said, Well, I have to talk to my 58 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,480 about that or my board. And I said, Well, don't worry, because I'm going to publish ... 59 00:08:14,079 --> 00:08:18,720 don't publish it. So he agreed to publish it straight away. And I said, You could also 60 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:25,319 reveal the names of the science board who've seen fit have my talk banned. And he said, 61 00:08:25,319 --> 00:08:30,639 We can't do that. And I said, Why not? He said, Because they're anonymous. So I said, 62 00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:34,799 Well, why are they anonymous? He said, Well, that's how they are. And I said, Well, why 63 00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:38,399 can't you reveal their names? He said, Well, we can't do that because people might 64 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,279 he said, Well, no, it's just the way we work. And I said, Well, I said, For me, it feels 65 00:08:49,279 --> 00:08:56,399 like being in a darkened room with hooded inquisitors. And so anyway, we didn't get 66 00:08:56,399 --> 00:09:02,879 this conversation. And he did publish my refutation. And I later learned he'd actua... 67 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:16,279 The Ted was attacked by a couple of militant materialists, Jerry coin and PZ Meyers, who 68 00:09:16,279 --> 00:09:23,100 are both American bloggers, are very, very militant materialists. And as usual with 69 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:28,279 they didn't attack what I'd said directly, they didn't try and say it was wrong, they 70 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:39,179 used to that. I've been canceled quite a lot of times. And so their technique is to 71 00:09:39,179 --> 00:09:48,000 get people canceled. So Ted fell in with pressure and canceled it. And I think they 72 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:53,159 I think they came to regret it better. But they panicked, they rushed into doing this 73 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:06,360 So that led to a huge controversy. And then because the Ted talks are on creative commons 74 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:13,080 licenses, people copied the talk and put it up all over the internet. And so as a result 75 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:19,179 of the controversy, when it was banned, it had had 35,000 views. And now as a result 76 00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:28,759 looked about seven million. So I'm sure it's more by now. And now it's just been 77 00:10:28,759 --> 00:10:38,000 in an animated version that's had over 700,000 views in a few weeks. So this runs 78 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:43,159 So anyway, that's roughly what happened. And I was astonished that this happened. 79 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:48,639 I had no idea it would happen. I thought nothing of it. After I'd given the talk, 80 00:10:55,019 --> 00:10:59,500 to be possibly of all the things I've done, the thing that's been most watched and 81 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:01,299 had the largest effect. 82 00:11:01,299 --> 00:11:07,179 Yeah. Well, let me highlight here three aspects and you can continue, we can conti... 83 00:11:07,179 --> 00:11:13,580 you want. One is an emotional aspect of yours. I know you and people who've listen... 84 00:11:18,860 --> 00:11:25,919 despite how hard it must have been throughout the years. So there's still a joy and a 85 00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:26,919 in Rupert. 86 00:11:26,919 --> 00:11:32,120 And so it's not victim mode we're talking about here or the mode you usually operate 87 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,600 and which you could. So that's one remark about the emotional aspect and that thing ... 88 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:42,799 helpful for other academics or other scientists who may be in this situation. 89 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:55,039 so outrageous? I mean, you're not a provocateur as I understand it, but what y... 90 00:11:55,039 --> 00:11:59,740 certain people, maybe certain people who are really noisy and we think it's kind of the 91 00:11:59,740 --> 00:12:07,720 whole world or the establishment, but perhaps what you say provokes a few influential 92 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:17,720 being cancelled. And thirdly, so the emotional, the sociological and then the 93 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:24,480 What is it that you were saying and that you have been saying that so revolutionary slash 94 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:31,559 outrageous for some scientists to even entertain? So it's three questions, three 95 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:45,759 you see is that what I'm really working for, what I've been working for for years within 96 00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:50,919 science is to try and move the sciences on or help move them on. There are a lot of people 97 00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:57,919 involved in this movement beyond dogmatic materialism. And the dogmas of mechanistic 98 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:11,360 of Victorian worldview, mechanistic materialist worldview. The universe is 99 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:18,200 up of unconscious matter, totally purposeless, evolution is purposeless. 100 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:24,919 or spirit or God out there. There's no spirits or beings. There's just consciousn... 101 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:36,360 It's nothing but the activity of the brain. Well, this is the standard materialist 102 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:42,159 that was developed in the late 19th century based on mechanistic foundations from the 103 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:47,640 mechanistic foundations from the 17th century and dogmatic materialist ideologies from t... 104 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:54,280 century and this took over the sciences and became the dominant orthodoxy. I've seen t... 105 00:13:54,280 --> 00:14:01,560 years as a restriction on scientific research and thinking and I've been trying in vario... 106 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:15,080 exploring the mind beyond the brain as manifested in psychic phenomena like 107 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:22,600 of being stared at is another and in a variety of ways I've been trying to go bey... 108 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:30,280 narrow dogmatism. Now this is very very annoying to materialists because some of t... 109 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:43,720 religion and are extremely offended at anything that throws into doubt their beli... 110 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:50,360 completely sure they're right. Their view is that sciences represents progress and reas... 111 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:57,080 leading edge of humanity. Religion and belief in psychic phenomena is nothing but 112 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:09,880 as science with scientists in the vanguard marches forward into the into the sunlit 113 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:17,720 progress and reason and so on. That's the general worldview and so what some of them 114 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:25,880 a kind of traitor to this scientific priesthood. The editor of Nature, the 115 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:39,240 me compared me to a lapsed Jesuit attacking the Church of Rome. All through the metaph... 116 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:45,000 that science was like the Church of Rome and he was like the Pope. That's how he saw it 117 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:53,960 with scientists as the new priesthood and I was a kind of traitor and a heretic and th... 118 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:09,480 angry about this and one reason I don't feel particularly resentful is that they're not 119 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,920 evil people. They're people who believe they're fighting for the truth. They see 120 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:22,120 as as heroic people fighting for science and reason against the dark forces of 121 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:33,640 They and members of these militant materialists and skeptic organizations 122 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:44,200 see themselves as the good guys fighting. They don't see themselves as narrow bigote... 123 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:59,320 too personally is that they're really they're fighting a battle an intellectual battle. 124 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:06,840 They're not evil people they just have a narrow view a narrow kind of fundamentalis... 125 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:21,000 whenever I used to bump into the John Maddox at events on in the Royal Society in London 126 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:30,200 he was perfectly amiable and you know when I meet some of these people who are my sworn 127 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:44,759 and have to be held back by people from attacking each other or seizing them by th... 128 00:17:44,759 --> 00:17:51,559 I suppose that's partly because this is England and that's more how these disputes... 129 00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:57,559 The Americans are much more vicious the the American skeptics much more vicious and 130 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:06,120 aggressive. The English ones are pretty aggressive too but they're not personally 131 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:14,360 aggressive so the reason that people attack what I'm doing is precisely because it 132 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:20,120 materialist worldview which they've made into a kind of religious belief system and the 133 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:27,400 they attack me is because you know I have a PhD I was a fellow of a Cambridge College ... 134 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:39,880 attacks any of these doctrines who's not a scientist they're their responses well why 135 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,320 you learn something about science first you know go and do a degree do a PhD then we 136 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,519 be qualified to say something about it well I have done all those things and they find that 137 00:18:58,599 --> 00:19:09,240 of the attacks or the the the the emotion in the attacks. So I think these are some of ... 138 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:15,400 that I've been so thoroughly attacked and it's not just me I mean anyone who has 139 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:30,759 partly because I don't feel I've got anything to lose I in a way I've already lost what ... 140 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:37,320 have had or when I was attacked by Maddox in his famous book for burning editorial it w... 141 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,920 an excommunication and what it meant was that I could never get a job in the scientific 142 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:56,120 I'd retreat with my tail between my legs and sort of undergo a legal conversion course ... 143 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:04,840 embarrassed or something but that didn't happen and luckily I found people who are 144 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:11,640 my research on a modest scale and I'd been able to continue as an independent scienti... 145 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,840 an exceptional degree of freedom compared with people who depend on institutions for 146 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:32,360 and for their grants who often feel unable to speak out because it would be too dangerou... 147 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:40,200 indeed it would be dangerous yes yes there's a lot in there Rupert let me follow it lik... 148 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:55,480 one could be a good theoretician and leave experiments to somebody else or to say wel... 149 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,680 methodologies to test some of those things then there's this conundrum this kind of 150 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:07,160 fish that eats its tail which is well here's the theory question do you have evidence well 151 00:21:13,079 --> 00:21:17,559 back and forth in this loop and then there's and these other tension which you just 152 00:21:17,559 --> 00:21:27,320 is the institutional science and the outsiders who try to in a way get in but 153 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:34,360 of the walls of the citadel and then there's very few people like you who can go in and 154 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:48,840 and also that keeps the enterprise going in the direction despite events like this one... 155 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:56,519 ago so I want to ask you next you published your first book in 1981 this controversy was 156 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:03,480 10 years ago so you've had like 30 years of pushing for these new ideas and then these 157 00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:18,599 controversy but sometimes this heat just dissipates and we go back to normal mode so 158 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:24,440 what how do you see things moving these 10 years I don't know what happened to Ted I 159 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:30,440 use to watch them anymore and I used to do it all the time I be disappointed right not n... 160 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:40,519 continue so you see there are things that are changing others have not I think you have ... 161 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:47,720 great perspective to let us know how you see these last 10 years well I think that there's 162 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:55,960 been a general opening up in our culture towards a more holistic view there's been ... 163 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:11,480 militant atheistic scientific people like Richard Dawkins for example who embodied v... 164 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:19,079 attitude is not a big intellectual force anymore in Britain I would say I mean yeah... 165 00:23:19,079 --> 00:23:23,880 ago he was ranked as our number one public intellectual you know he had a huge influence 166 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:39,079 so I think partly there's been a decline in militant atheism and its credibility and 167 00:23:39,079 --> 00:23:45,800 atheism is almost always linked to dogmatic materialism in science the two go together 168 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:54,200 materialism is inherently atheistic I think there's been a big growth in people who ar... 169 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:07,079 not religious and I think that number is growing tremendously both in Europe and in 170 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:17,320 and this is also related to a great interest in consciousness studies within within the 171 00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:29,720 the study of spiritual practices like meditation and other spiritual practices a... 172 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:36,360 theme of one of my recent books science and spiritual practices partly through 173 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:42,200 and the fact that research on psychedelics has now become legal in some countries 174 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:56,840 experiences and many more people I think feeling they have permission to try 175 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:02,680 are now legal psychedelic retreats in various countries including the Netherlands and 176 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:09,720 and Peru and increasingly they will soon be seeing them in the United States where 177 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:24,119 so that's part of it also increased interest in near-death experiences end-of-life 178 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:32,039 lucid dreaming all these aspects of consciousness studies have become much mor... 179 00:25:32,039 --> 00:25:37,079 none of these fit very well with the mechanistic materialist view that the mind... 180 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:50,200 the general culture and also opening up particular areas within science but most o... 181 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:56,599 science has carried on as before because the whole institutional structure and the grant 182 00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:02,280 giving structure and the career structure is basically designed to give incremental 183 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:15,400 have to learn the standard establishment kind of science well then you have to do a PhD 184 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:21,400 you're kind of an apprentice to an established scientist and you soon learn w... 185 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:27,320 and what you can't say and most people rapidly learn that you can't discuss certa... 186 00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:40,920 you know low-paid job in someone else's lab for three years the end of three years and 187 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:48,200 by the time you're 35 you've had to work under other people fitting in and trying t... 188 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,720 because only if you do that will you have the chance of getting a permanent position 189 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:04,680 and uh getting grants so this means that it's very very conservative and anyone who has 190 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:10,440 ideas usually keeps them quiet because it would derail their career because this is 191 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:17,480 competitive so I think that's one reason uh for institutional science staying as limit... 192 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,640 another is the well it's related to that the funding now the funding is the one thing 193 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,120 Another is, well, is related to that, the funding. 194 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:24,560 Now, the funding is the one thing that might change 195 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,280 because there are now a lot of very rich people 196 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,200 and a lot of independent foundations 197 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,040 that could, if they wanted, 198 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,040 fund different kinds of science 199 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,120 and some are beginning to do that. 200 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:40,000 And I think that will make a very big difference, 201 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,120 but it would have to be in a way 202 00:27:46,759 --> 00:27:49,000 if they come out of the closet. 203 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,840 There are lots and lots of scientists in the closet 204 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,560 with holistic views, but who went to express them in public. 205 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,240 And it's all right to get a grant for two or three years 206 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,000 to do something really unconventional, 207 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,040 but what happens after that? 208 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,240 You may never get a job again 209 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,960 unless there's some sustained source of funding 210 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,400 and some sustained career path. 211 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,280 to do with jobs, careers, ambition, et cetera, 212 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,759 and six-year survival. 213 00:28:20,759 --> 00:28:23,160 However, within the sciences themselves, 214 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:24,680 within the hardcore sciences, 215 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,519 there have been several changes 216 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:29,720 that I think are helping to open things up. 217 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,680 And I discussed those in the new edition of my book, 218 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,600 The Science Delusion, which came out in 2020, 219 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,120 which is thoroughly updated throughout. 220 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,480 is firstly in the study of inheritance, 221 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,680 because in the 20th century, 222 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,720 the only valid form of inheritance was genetics, 223 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,360 and neo-Darwinian theory of evolution 224 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,280 is all based on genetic mutations, 225 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,440 random mutation genetic inheritance. 226 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,080 The inheritance of acquired characters, 227 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,240 the Markian inheritance, was the worst heresy 228 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,840 It was the orthodoxy in the Soviet Union, 229 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,200 which is one reason that it became so heretical in the West 230 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,280 there was a political polarization 231 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,640 as well as a scientific one. 232 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,720 Well, since around the year 2000, 233 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,840 the Markian inheritance or epigenetic inheritance 234 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,000 has been rebranded, epigenetic inheritance. 235 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,200 And now it's mainstream, very exciting, 236 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,800 the extended evolutionary synthesis, 237 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,240 which is far broader than narrow dogmatic neo-Darwinism 238 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,360 of the selfish gene type, which considers only genes. 239 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,519 This takes into account the inheritance of acquired characters, 240 00:29:54,519 --> 00:29:58,600 epigenetic inheritance, cultural inheritance, 241 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,680 and a whole range of other phenomena 242 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,080 that influence evolution, much more inclusive. 243 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,160 who was himself a kind of Lamarckian 244 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,120 and believed in the inheritance of acquired characters. 245 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,000 So the narrow form of evolutionary theory 246 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,000 was a 20th century development called neo-Darwinism 247 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,600 precisely 'cause it differed from Darwinism 248 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,039 in its narrow focus on genes. 249 00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:31,920 So as one change, the inheritance is broadening out 250 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,720 has many implications for inheritance. 251 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,880 And the atmosphere is now much more favorable 252 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,600 for understanding evolution 253 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,720 in a way that could include morphic resonance. 254 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,400 It's still heretical, but we're getting to a point 255 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,039 where it's becoming within a stone's throw 256 00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:56,240 of morphic resonance 257 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,720 and some forms of epigenetic inheritance, 258 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,240 although under a different name. 259 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,680 So there's one area. 260 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,160 Another area which you and I have discussed often, Alex, 261 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,800 is memory, where the idea is that all, 262 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,000 the traditional idea is all memories are stored 263 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,960 as material traces in brains, 264 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,760 either as modified nerve endings or phosphorylated proteins 265 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,360 or even DNA or RNA molecules that are suitably modified. 266 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,039 have failed over and over and over again. 267 00:31:34,039 --> 00:31:37,120 And a flurry of activity about 10 years ago 268 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,960 led to people claiming they did last find 269 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,440 the engram, the memory trace. 270 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,640 But now it turns out that memories are not localized 271 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:48,880 within the brain in the way 272 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,720 that the memory trace theory would require. 273 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,720 They depend on vibratory patterns of activity 274 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,600 that can shift from one part of the brain to another. 275 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,720 and it can shift from one area to slightly different areas. 276 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,640 Different cells are involved, different nerve cells. 277 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,320 And as you know, this is called representational drift. 278 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,120 Now, I think all of these changes in neuroscience 279 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,400 show that memories are to do 280 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,920 with vibratory patterns of activity, 281 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,519 which of course is music to my idea and my ears 282 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:24,120 because morphic resonance 283 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,880 is all about vibratory patterns of activity. 284 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,360 And the third area that the main area that's changed 285 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,240 is the assumption within the sciences 286 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,760 that science was uniquely objective 287 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,400 and that scientists, everyone else was subjective 288 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,880 and based on private opinions 289 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,200 and subjective distortions 290 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,039 and cognitive biases and so forth. 291 00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:52,320 But science was uniquely objective 292 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,080 based on peer review and on replicable results, 293 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,080 Well, around 2015, it turned out that most papers 294 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,240 in many fields of science could not be replicated, 295 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,440 even papers in highly prestigious journals. 296 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,039 And this, as many people will recognize, 297 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:15,080 is now known as the reproducibility crisis 298 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,400 or the replicability crisis. 299 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,920 In biomedicine, careful studies showed 300 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,160 that about 80% of published papers couldn't be replicated. 301 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,280 couldn't be replicated. 302 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,360 And similar studies in other branches of science 303 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,240 have shown that the majority of papers 304 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,280 in the top journals by prestigious researchers 305 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,960 in top universities like Harvard and Cambridge 306 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,280 cannot be replicated. 307 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,000 Now, this is a very serious crisis 308 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,680 'cause the supposed objectivity of science 309 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,880 depended on the claim that it was all replicable. 310 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,560 if they were from prestigious labs. 311 00:33:58,560 --> 00:33:59,920 Even if you did replicate them, 312 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:01,120 you couldn't get them published 313 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,800 'cause general editors said that it wasn't original work. 314 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,960 It was merely copying what had been done before. 315 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,079 And the pressures on people to advance their careers 316 00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:13,440 within institutional science 317 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,240 are based on the number of papers you publish 318 00:34:16,240 --> 00:34:17,800 and how much attention they get, 319 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,079 how many citations they get. 320 00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:22,840 This encourages people to publish spectacular 321 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:29,119 And when people publish only a fraction of their results 322 00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:30,360 in many fields of science, 323 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,960 only five or 10% of their data are published, 324 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,039 you can obviously select the ones that look best 325 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:38,440 and that's what people do 326 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,200 and leave the 90% or so that don't look very good. 327 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,360 Now, a selective reporting of data 328 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,000 is rife, endemic within the sciences. 329 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,079 And I think is one of the main reasons 330 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:52,800 for the reproducibility crisis. 331 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,079 scientific journals discuss this all the time 332 00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:01,400 and the arrogance that used to characterize scientists 333 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,920 when talking about the superiority of science 334 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,599 to all other ways of knowing has been necessarily dimmed. 335 00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:12,480 I mean, it's the first time I've ever seen a mood of humility 336 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,720 within mainstream science. 337 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,000 It was when the replication crisis broke out. 338 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,599 - Yes, and I can understand why many people may say, 339 00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:27,360 And I've been also told that then I, 340 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,000 well, that's a saying we have in Spanish. 341 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,360 I don't know if it worked in English. 342 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,720 You throw rocks on your own building. 343 00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:35,440 I tend to reply, "Well, it's because the ceiling 344 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,760 "it's not quite fixed so when there's a storm, 345 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,960 "hopefully it would just blow all out, right? 346 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,000 "But there's so many things to fix." 347 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,039 And before I get into that, let me recapitulate 348 00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:49,600 on some of the actual scientific proposals of yours 349 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,039 sociological, emotional, but you mentioned memory, 350 00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:56,680 you mentioned epigenetics. 351 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,920 There's also the problem of the origin of form, 352 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:01,519 which is where you started. 353 00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:03,440 It's not solved to my opinion. 354 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,440 And then the problem of perception or the idea 355 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,680 that when we perceive things, our minds are extended 356 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,000 onto those things we perceive, 357 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,880 which is something you call the extended mind, 358 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,480 even before it became popular. 359 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,000 by a vanilla version of the extended mind. 360 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,519 So the mind is extended, but it's extended in this way 361 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:28,960 that it can really do much, right? 362 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,559 So you've been, let me do it 'cause you're maybe too humble. 363 00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:36,280 You've been pioneering these ideas 364 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,480 and then as time went by, 365 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,880 it's not that they've been, all of them confirmed, 366 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,960 but it seems like science is moving into that direction, 367 00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:50,000 Also methodologically, you've invented all sorts of ways 368 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,000 to do science at the outskirts of the church of science 369 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,720 by doing citizen science, science that's cheap, 370 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,079 science that can be done by normal people, 371 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:07,039 real-world science before it became popular. 372 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:11,320 And in a way, you've tried it all from within, 373 00:37:16,119 --> 00:37:17,680 And then there's the replicability problem, 374 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,800 as you were saying, so too many things to fix. 375 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,800 So I want to now walk one step back and mention, 376 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,800 you were talking about the culture pressure, 377 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,140 but then the institutions just holding to that. 378 00:37:33,140 --> 00:37:35,920 It felt to me like this membrane potential, right? 379 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,559 When there are more, there's more ions accumulating here 380 00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:40,800 and at some point there'll be a spike. 381 00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:46,519 it has happened between science and religion 382 00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:48,019 or science and spirituality, 383 00:37:48,019 --> 00:37:49,880 because people don't want to talk about religion. 384 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,199 Like there's been, both of them have been flirting. 385 00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:57,480 Say, well, maybe we can just fit each other back 386 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,720 and not keep these tight walls. 387 00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:03,360 And a third image, you mentioned the closet. 388 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,240 I've recently named it Schrodinger's closet, 389 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,840 who believe and don't believe on their daytime 390 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,420 when they're working as official scientists, 391 00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:18,760 they do the usual thing. 392 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,119 But then they have these other experiences 393 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:24,440 with their pets, with their families, with their friends, 394 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,539 that challenge what they do. 395 00:38:26,539 --> 00:38:30,360 So we, and I'm gonna say we live in this closet, right? 396 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,400 So in a way, all we're talking is, in my view, 397 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,800 so that scientists say, well, look, 398 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,039 that's what I want to study. 399 00:38:42,039 --> 00:38:43,280 It feels very real to me. 400 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,159 Why I've been giving these privilege 401 00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:49,920 to investigate something that I deeply care about. 402 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,220 Why not study those things? 403 00:38:51,220 --> 00:38:53,360 That's from the science point of view. 404 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,440 But also the culture can continue pressing. 405 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,280 And as you know, I don't have a lot of hope or trust 406 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:04,920 because it's been used so many times 407 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,600 and it feels like it never really happens. 408 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,480 And yet it's like the tension is growing, 409 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,220 and growing, and growing. 410 00:39:12,220 --> 00:39:14,600 And at some point, perhaps the dam, 411 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,000 the Buddha and other metaphor just crumbles 412 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,960 and there's this outflow from both directions. 413 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:20,800 How do you see it? 414 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,680 - Well, of course, I'd like to think 415 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,000 that's what's going to happen. 416 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,960 I've been thinking it's going to happen for 50 years 417 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,079 and it hasn't. 418 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:41,800 And I think I can imagine ways in which it could happen. 419 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,600 In fact, I spend a lot of time 420 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,079 trying to imagine ways in which it could happen. 421 00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:51,440 With psychic phenomena, for example, 422 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,240 which are probably the most marginalized 423 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:56,640 of all fields of scientific research, 424 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,680 Simply piling up evidence doesn't change much. 425 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,360 I mean, there's lots of evidence now 426 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,360 for things like telephone telepathy. 427 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,240 But it's simply ignored. 428 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,199 You know, people like Stephen Pinker, 429 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:18,920 Richard Dawkins and other noted materialists 430 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,159 simply ignore it because they say it's impossible. 431 00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:23,960 Therefore, the evidence must be flawed. 432 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,320 There's no point wasting time looking at it. 433 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,240 They're sure they're right. 434 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,800 And it, however much evidence you have, 435 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,600 won't make the slightest difference. 436 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,119 Now, what would really make a difference 437 00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:39,920 is if someone developed an app 438 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,960 that tapped into the phenomenon of pre-sentiment, 439 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,840 which is one of the things that psychic researchers study, 440 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,519 where people have a kind of pre-echo 441 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:50,880 of an emotional response 442 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,680 that's going to happen a few seconds in the future. 443 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,320 This is something that Dean Radion 444 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,559 I think it would be possible to develop an app 445 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:02,600 that would enable people to use this 446 00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:05,639 to develop an app that would enable people to use this in successful day trading on the 447 00:41:05,639 --> 00:41:10,279 market where you have to make decisions a few seconds in advance about the way things wi... 448 00:41:10,279 --> 00:41:16,679 And I've talked to successful day traders and I'm pretty sure that the really successful 449 00:41:22,839 --> 00:41:30,599 do this and make millions through day trading and then companies would start giving 450 00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:35,799 and lots of people would be making lots of money, that's the kind of thing people wou... 451 00:41:35,799 --> 00:41:40,920 in the modern world and it's something computers wouldn't be able to do. However 452 00:41:49,639 --> 00:41:55,880 morphic resonance effects within new materials and material science is one of t... 453 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:02,119 areas of physics, people are developing new materials that show properties like super 454 00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:09,799 conductivity as in Bose-Einstein condensates. There are various rather strange forms of 455 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:21,159 super fluidity, super conductivity, carrying electric currents with no resistance, 456 00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:30,519 and so on. They're making new materials that have never existed before in the universe ... 457 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:36,599 we know and if it turns out that some of these materials when you do the same 458 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:49,639 within these new materials and if it could be applied in new forms of analog computing for 459 00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:57,480 example and become the kind of thing that Silicon Valley startups would be working o... 460 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:03,400 would want to do PhDs on it, that would open the floodgates for morphic resonance 461 00:43:09,559 --> 00:43:17,880 them involve technical applications that would involve investment because fighting 462 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:24,440 these arguments on purely intellectual grounds in the present climate of our cult... 463 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:31,960 completely commercially oriented, isn't going to work. I mean fighting it out through 464 00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:48,119 it doesn't get you anywhere because the skeptics still just go into denial mode. 465 00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:55,559 applications where venture capitalists can get interested, then the money will flow a... 466 00:43:55,559 --> 00:44:00,039 within the business world in my experience are much, much more open-minded than peopl... 467 00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:13,000 investing in something new. In the academic world, you get credit for chalking up 468 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,880 prestigious journals, getting more and more citations within well-established fields of 469 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:25,799 inquiry and essentially doing more of the same, carry on with business as usual. And 470 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:40,599 of venture capital and in the world of entrepreneurial activity, there's an 471 00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:47,480 differently, to try and do something new and that's why I think that the changes will 472 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:53,880 most rapidly. The floodgates will open most rapidly if there's some commercial 473 00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:07,239 network say, well, this is a question of politics of knowledge and what knowledge 474 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:12,440 And you're, as I was saying, you're trying and have tried all different ways. So one is 475 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,799 the one you just mentioned, also making it viral. And yet let me ask you, and it's a ... 476 00:45:25,319 --> 00:45:33,319 papers and submitting them to journals. So you, Rupert, you haven't given up on offic... 477 00:45:33,319 --> 00:45:38,840 and that's very interesting to me because after 40 years, you could say, f it, f it, 478 00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:54,039 Because in fact, the people who are actually doing the research are within official 479 00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:58,440 It's very hard nowadays to do research outside them. I mean, I do some myself. 480 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:05,400 But there's a limit to what you can do. I mean, I'm used to doing research under real 481 00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:17,239 Agricultural Institute in India, I was doing literal field research in fields. So I got 482 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:22,920 to doing research outside laboratories. That's normal in agriculture. It's not nor... 483 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:29,239 fields of biology or science. It's lab based. If you work in agriculture, you have to pl... 484 00:46:35,799 --> 00:46:42,759 control the incidence of insect pests. You can't control it if the agricultural labor... 485 00:46:42,759 --> 00:46:50,440 strike, as they sometimes did during my experiments and so on. So there's all sort... 486 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:57,559 Agricultural research is inherently holistic and field based. And so I learned to do 487 00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:07,480 which was important because I've never been well funded. I've had some funding, but no... 488 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:15,880 Now, for doing more sophisticated experiments on new materials like Bose-Einstein 489 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:22,359 or looking for epigenetic effects in fruit flies or nematode worms, you actually need 490 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:35,000 better to do it within existing labs that are already there. And that means working within 491 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:43,159 scientists who are already working within institutions. So there are plenty of 492 00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:48,920 as we were discussing just now, within institutions who are quite open-minded, wh... 493 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:59,960 they express in public and seminars in their department and so on. And if they have an 494 00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:05,400 opportunity to do more wide-ranging research within their laboratories, some would welc... 495 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:12,519 So from that point of view, I think it's very important to play science by the rules. I 496 00:48:12,519 --> 00:48:17,319 I've always tried to play it by the rules. You know, when I first put forward the idea 497 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:28,440 be tested. You know, I'm trying to play it by the rules. My opponents didn't play it by the 498 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:33,239 rules. They just said, oh, this should be ignored, cancelled, etc. The books should ... 499 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:41,159 so forth. So, but I think it's important to play it by the rules. And so I do, I've 500 00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:56,920 the press at the moment. And I'm writing several more in the next few months. And I 501 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,759 reason this is important is because for things to be taken seriously within the 502 00:49:02,759 --> 00:49:08,199 they have to be within the scientific literature. And that means papers in 503 00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:22,920 when it works properly is really helpful. I mean, I've had some papers of mine I've 504 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:29,719 journals. For example, I submitted a paper on a hundred studies, videotaped studies on a 505 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:36,039 that knew when its owner was coming home, showing a kind of telepathic behavior. I 506 00:49:41,399 --> 00:49:47,480 the editor wrote back saying, I'm rejecting your paper without refereeing, because no 507 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:53,559 this journal would consider a paper that mentions the word telepathy. And probably ... 508 00:49:53,559 --> 00:50:00,519 and it saved a lot of time. So I appreciated the fact he was honest about it instead of 509 00:50:09,159 --> 00:50:16,679 there are open-minded journals. And my experience in the last few years of 510 00:50:16,679 --> 00:50:22,039 that this has been enormously helpful to have experts in the field critically review what 511 00:50:22,039 --> 00:50:29,319 one's written, point out there are papers that one should have cited. And I've had t... 512 00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:41,639 out different ways of doing a statistical analysis. This is very, very helpful. And 513 00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:48,840 So I'm a great appreciator of peer-review when it's done properly, constructively, 514 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:56,279 rather than as a way of simply squashing things that people don't like. And so when 515 00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:09,000 So I'm all in favor of the methods of science. What I'm against is the dogmas wh... 516 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:16,519 to dominate the sciences and the scientific institutions. Yes. Now, it's about to close, 517 00:51:16,519 --> 00:51:23,559 but I want to bring two topics briefly. I don't want to live without mentioning 518 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:35,000 Then we've talked about scientific institutions playing by the rules of the g... 519 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:41,800 themselves. But I remember in some of our private conversations, the word education 520 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:49,559 because if, and you often tell me, right, if we don't change the minds of what is taugh... 521 00:51:58,279 --> 00:52:04,279 of thought and certain world views, right? So I would also like to hear your comments an... 522 00:52:04,279 --> 00:52:10,199 particular efforts to influence education, right? Because if that's already in the 523 00:52:10,199 --> 00:52:16,519 that's in a way the gospel. And there is truth in it, but it also contains a 524 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:28,440 Yes. Well, again, there's a tremendous disjunction between institutional education 525 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,800 and the wider culture. I mean, the wider culture includes 526 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:40,599 Paris dialogues and the kind of things you're doing at the Paris Center. It includes the 527 00:52:40,599 --> 00:52:46,279 that the scientific and medical network lay on online and reach thousands of people 528 00:52:55,159 --> 00:53:01,800 media in which ideas are shared and videos and so forth. And many people who are 529 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:10,199 full-time education watch these YouTubes and listen to podcasts and get other ideas. Bu... 530 00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:15,399 soon as they go back to their regular course at school or university, they're getting 531 00:53:21,399 --> 00:53:27,639 as just the framework within which everything's taught. And they can't really 532 00:53:27,639 --> 00:53:31,399 then they won't pass their exams. And if they don't pass their exams, they won't get a good 533 00:53:31,399 --> 00:53:35,559 degree and they won't become a scientist or anything else if they don't get a good 534 00:53:35,559 --> 00:53:42,359 There's self-interest, forces people to go along with the system. And then after a 535 00:53:47,079 --> 00:53:52,519 land you in trouble and all you're really interested in is getting a job and enough 536 00:53:52,519 --> 00:53:58,679 things you want the money for. Why bother causing trouble and especially as you know 537 00:53:58,679 --> 00:54:06,039 So, I think this really is a huge challenge. How do we reform the educational system to 538 00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:12,039 these ideas in? There's very little going on at the moment in schools or universities 539 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:22,359 but if you want to get into a university, you then have to go through the standard exam 540 00:54:22,359 --> 00:54:29,719 to go to a university. And even if you get a kind of alternative degree from, you know, 541 00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:35,159 for example, Schumacher College in England where I taught for many years in the holis... 542 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,080 there's just not much market for people with a holistic MSc 543 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,320 as a scientist, MSc in holistic science. 544 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,800 I mean, regular scientific and educational institutions 545 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,080 don't have job descriptions of that kind. 546 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,240 So I think this is an enormous challenge. 547 00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:57,480 And right now, there's a lot going on outside education, 548 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,240 just as for practicing scientists, 549 00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,480 and through discussions with friends and so on, 550 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,360 and podcasts that goes way beyond the narrow limits 551 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,400 of the science they're doing in their laboratory 552 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,400 and their day job. 553 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,720 But it is very, very hard to find a way 554 00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:19,760 in which they can influence each other. 555 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,280 That's an unsolved challenge. 556 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,560 And since I'm not working in an educational institution, 557 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,039 there's not a lot I can do. 558 00:55:26,039 --> 00:55:28,360 I give talks whenever I can, 559 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,280 particularly to students, 560 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,560 I prioritize those again over and above all other things, 561 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,720 which I think, because I think they're the most important, 562 00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:47,039 I'm doing one shortly at the Cambridge Union Society, 563 00:55:47,039 --> 00:55:48,480 a student society, 564 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,280 another to the Architectural Association students. 565 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,680 I've given several in British secondary schools recently. 566 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,440 and don't have much influence on the curriculum 567 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,000 and the standard exams. 568 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:06,720 So this is an unsolved problem. 569 00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:08,800 And I think we all need to think about 570 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:10,400 how to do something about it. 571 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:11,880 - Yes, and we're thinking about it. 572 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,280 And I can also see signs of change, 573 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,560 also solving the accreditation problem, 574 00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,200 maybe some academies that have relationship with universities, 575 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,320 but also pursue this spirit of free inquiry. 576 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,920 When we speak about worldviews and alternative worldview, 577 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,760 what would be a pity is that we go from one dictatorship, 578 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:40,760 from one monoculture to tear it down and erect another one. 579 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,560 So my final thoughts are about pluralism. 580 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,880 We're not asking here, at least that's how I'd like to put it, 581 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,920 for people to now become Sheldrakians 582 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,840 We're asking people to entertain different ideas, 583 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:02,920 test different hypotheses and check different worldviews. 584 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,039 And there's, I think there's room for difference. 585 00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:07,720 It's not a winner takes all, 586 00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:11,120 let's just start this thing down and erect another ones. 587 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,240 Also in that process, there'll be some worldviews 588 00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:18,240 who that will produce happier lives for more whole lives. 589 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,740 So that's another thing to have in common. 590 00:57:25,740 --> 00:57:28,600 that now everybody needs to bow to. 591 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,080 I think we're talking about this spirit 592 00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:35,080 where we can just see things and discuss them and disagree 593 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:40,440 and still be in a community where this is possible. 594 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:45,080 - Well, I think the best model at the moment 595 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,080 for pluralism is within medicine, 596 00:57:49,260 --> 00:57:52,860 which is based on mechanistic materialism. 597 00:57:52,860 --> 00:57:55,220 But if you look at the wider picture, 598 00:57:55,220 --> 00:57:57,460 then here in Britain, I'm sure in Spain 599 00:57:57,460 --> 00:57:59,340 and everywhere else in Europe, 600 00:57:59,340 --> 00:58:03,940 there are acupuncturists, homeopaths, osteopaths, 601 00:58:03,940 --> 00:58:06,700 chiropractors, naturopaths, 602 00:58:06,700 --> 00:58:10,140 traditional Muslim medicine, 603 00:58:10,140 --> 00:58:13,820 Yunani medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, yoga, 604 00:58:13,820 --> 00:58:17,700 and then all spiritual practices like meditation, 605 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,960 have health related effects, fasting, for example. 606 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,120 So there are already all these practitioners 607 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,000 of different systems side by side. 608 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,760 And they're not within the official medical schools 609 00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:35,560 and the official system, 610 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,880 but they do exist as viable presences 611 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,000 within the wider community. 612 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,960 And the movement of integrative medicine, 613 00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,960 which is an attempt to have a medical system 614 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,539 that doesn't fit into a narrow dogma, 615 00:58:50,539 --> 00:58:53,579 includes anything that seems to work, 616 00:58:53,579 --> 00:58:56,380 not necessarily saying how it works. 617 00:58:56,380 --> 00:58:59,260 I mean, if it works, then we'll include it. 618 00:58:59,260 --> 00:59:02,820 And one of the people here in Britain 619 00:59:02,820 --> 00:59:07,020 who's pioneered this is our King, our now King Charles. 620 00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:09,100 I mean, he had the Prince's Institute 621 00:59:09,100 --> 00:59:12,100 for Integrative Medicine long before 622 00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:14,860 most people were thinking about these things 623 00:59:16,780 --> 00:59:18,400 And so I think that's one model. 624 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,700 We've already got a functioning pluralism in our society, 625 00:59:22,700 --> 00:59:24,480 even though the alternative systems 626 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,140 are deprived of state funds 627 00:59:26,140 --> 00:59:28,900 and support from official medical systems, 628 00:59:28,900 --> 00:59:30,440 they still are there. 629 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,560 If they were supported and if research 630 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:36,020 on these other systems was encouraged, 631 00:59:36,020 --> 00:59:36,860 especially-- 632 00:59:36,860 --> 00:59:39,200 (indistinct) 633 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:43,380 Especially comparative effectiveness research, 634 00:59:45,060 --> 00:59:48,260 what works independent of the theory. 635 00:59:48,260 --> 00:59:51,980 And I think we can have an important move forwards. 636 00:59:51,980 --> 00:59:54,660 (indistinct) 637 00:59:54,660 --> 00:59:55,500 - Let's see. 638 00:59:55,500 --> 00:59:56,340 Sorry about that. 639 00:59:56,340 --> 00:59:58,500 - About that, somebody keeps unmuting themselves. 640 00:59:58,500 --> 01:00:00,700 Sorry, continue, Rupert, sorry about that. 641 01:00:00,700 --> 01:00:05,220 - Anyway, just to wrap this up, 642 01:00:05,220 --> 01:00:08,820 I think that the pluralism within science could be, 643 01:00:08,820 --> 01:00:10,980 that's one starting model. 644 01:00:14,539 --> 01:00:17,579 and traditions to do science in their own way. 645 01:00:17,579 --> 01:00:19,660 For example, in Brazil, 646 01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:23,940 there are already people doing research on spirit mediums, 647 01:00:23,940 --> 01:00:26,140 spirit possession as a curative, 648 01:00:26,140 --> 01:00:29,900 and can it actually lead to cures for mental illness? 649 01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:31,660 And apparently it can. 650 01:00:31,660 --> 01:00:34,860 In India, there could be a lot more research 651 01:00:34,860 --> 01:00:39,860 on yoga and traditional control of physiology by yogis, 652 01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:43,900 simply hasn't explored. 653 01:00:43,900 --> 01:00:46,020 How is it they control their metabolism 654 01:00:46,020 --> 01:00:48,620 in a ways that we think impossible? 655 01:00:48,620 --> 01:00:50,740 In China, if they had more emphasis 656 01:00:50,740 --> 01:00:54,940 on traditional Chinese medicine and the underlying theories, 657 01:00:54,940 --> 01:00:56,500 we'd learn something new. 658 01:00:56,500 --> 01:00:59,660 Right now, there's a colonial mentality 659 01:00:59,660 --> 01:01:02,020 where in every country in the world, 660 01:01:02,020 --> 01:01:04,660 the scientists want to get their papers published 661 01:01:04,660 --> 01:01:05,900 in nature and science, 662 01:01:05,900 --> 01:01:08,660 and the brightest ones want to do post docs 663 01:01:11,660 --> 01:01:15,420 I'd say there's still a kind of colonial mentality, 664 01:01:15,420 --> 01:01:18,940 but I think decolonizing science could also help 665 01:01:18,940 --> 01:01:20,820 to bring about this pluralism 666 01:01:20,820 --> 01:01:24,180 and make science richer and more productive. 667 01:01:24,180 --> 01:01:25,500 - That's wonderful, Rupert. 668 01:01:25,500 --> 01:01:27,220 Thank you for mentioning medicine 669 01:01:27,220 --> 01:01:30,420 and also this last remark about a universal science 670 01:01:30,420 --> 01:01:35,060 that still can integrate indigenous ways of knowing 671 01:01:35,060 --> 01:01:37,980 and respect them, wonderful. 672 01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:43,700 Thank you again for accepting to be in conversation with me. 673 01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:47,220 Thank you for your work throughout these many years. 674 01:01:47,220 --> 01:01:50,780 I must confess it's a true honor to be a collaborator 675 01:01:50,780 --> 01:01:52,660 and a blessing to be your friend. 676 01:01:52,660 --> 01:01:54,260 Thank you very much, Rupert. 677 01:01:54,260 --> 01:01:55,820 - Well, a blessing for me too. 678 01:01:55,820 --> 01:01:59,860 - All right, so we'll open it up for question 679 01:01:59,860 --> 01:02:01,900 for another, let's say 20 minutes 680 01:02:01,900 --> 01:02:05,140 and from both questions that may have appeared in the chat 681 01:02:05,140 --> 01:02:07,660 and perhaps some people can also raise their hand 682 01:02:09,579 --> 01:02:11,020 I suppose, thank you. 683 01:02:11,020 --> 01:02:12,940 - If you'd like to come in and ask a question, 684 01:02:12,940 --> 01:02:15,660 we ask you to use the raise your hand function. 685 01:02:15,660 --> 01:02:18,340 We do ask you to keep your questions very brief 686 01:02:18,340 --> 01:02:19,180 and to the point, 687 01:02:19,180 --> 01:02:22,180 as we do have quite a big group here today. 688 01:02:22,180 --> 01:02:24,620 So just out of respect for everybody that's here, 689 01:02:24,620 --> 01:02:28,300 if you could please try to keep your questions very focused. 690 01:02:28,300 --> 01:02:32,140 Vic, you had a question that you wrote in the chat. 691 01:02:32,140 --> 01:02:34,539 Would you like to come in and ask your question? 692 01:02:37,940 --> 01:02:40,180 Thanks Eleanor, hi everybody. 693 01:02:40,180 --> 01:02:45,180 Rupert, thoughts on correlations, if any, 694 01:02:45,180 --> 01:02:50,820 between morphic resonance and alchemical transformation? 695 01:02:50,820 --> 01:02:55,780 - Well, that's a really difficult question, Vic. 696 01:02:55,780 --> 01:02:59,020 I don't know because partly 697 01:02:59,020 --> 01:03:00,900 because I don't know exactly 698 01:03:00,900 --> 01:03:03,020 what alchemical transformation was about. 699 01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:08,420 in the 16th and 17th century 700 01:03:08,420 --> 01:03:10,660 who were actually trying to make gold. 701 01:03:10,660 --> 01:03:12,100 The reason Sir Isaac Newton 702 01:03:12,100 --> 01:03:14,740 was appointed master of the mint in Britain 703 01:03:14,740 --> 01:03:16,900 after he died from Cambridge 704 01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:19,100 was because he knew what was happening 705 01:03:19,100 --> 01:03:22,300 in continental alchemy and central banks 706 01:03:22,300 --> 01:03:26,060 like the Royal Mint in England 707 01:03:26,060 --> 01:03:28,420 were worried that the market would be flooded 708 01:03:28,420 --> 01:03:30,980 with gold manufactured in Prague 709 01:03:30,980 --> 01:03:31,940 or somewhere like that. 710 01:03:31,940 --> 01:03:33,539 If alchemists did what they said, 711 01:03:35,500 --> 01:03:38,180 But more recent accounts, like those of Jung 712 01:03:38,180 --> 01:03:41,780 and Esoteric, writings about alchemy treated 713 01:03:41,780 --> 01:03:45,140 as if it was all a kind of internal transformational process 714 01:03:45,140 --> 01:03:49,460 and it wasn't anything as crude as trying to make gold 715 01:03:49,460 --> 01:03:51,420 and get rich quick. 716 01:03:51,420 --> 01:03:54,100 But actually, I think an awful lot of it was 717 01:03:54,100 --> 01:03:57,180 about trying to get rich quick through making gold. 718 01:03:57,180 --> 01:04:01,060 So it's very, very hard to know what was really going on. 719 01:04:04,740 --> 01:04:07,380 that they discovered would become easier 720 01:04:07,380 --> 01:04:08,940 if it were repeated. 721 01:04:08,940 --> 01:04:10,420 But since, as far as we know, 722 01:04:10,420 --> 01:04:14,340 they didn't achieve transmutation, that may not apply. 723 01:04:14,340 --> 01:04:17,620 And since the transformative process 724 01:04:17,620 --> 01:04:19,700 of the kind of psychological work, 725 01:04:19,700 --> 01:04:22,980 it's possible that some things they were doing 726 01:04:22,980 --> 01:04:27,900 now have taken different forms under different names 727 01:04:27,900 --> 01:04:29,420 in spiritual practices. 728 01:04:32,860 --> 01:04:34,780 enough to comment on that. 729 01:04:34,780 --> 01:04:37,460 - Good enough, thank you. 730 01:04:37,460 --> 01:04:40,660 - Great to see you, Wieg. 731 01:04:40,660 --> 01:04:42,380 - Thank you, Wieg. 732 01:04:42,380 --> 01:04:44,020 Richard, would you like to come in, 733 01:04:44,020 --> 01:04:45,539 please and ask your question. 734 01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:03,660 Would you like to come in and ask your question? 735 01:05:03,660 --> 01:05:05,140 - Yeah, is that better? 736 01:05:05,140 --> 01:05:06,420 - Perfect, thank you. 737 01:05:06,420 --> 01:05:11,420 - Yes, in 1996 at our hospital, 738 01:05:11,420 --> 01:05:15,500 we started a healing center, 739 01:05:15,500 --> 01:05:19,180 which of course got very little support from my colleagues. 740 01:05:19,180 --> 01:05:23,060 And even brought in amazing Randy 741 01:05:23,060 --> 01:05:27,660 that tried to debunk what we were doing with Healing Touch. 742 01:05:31,940 --> 01:05:36,940 from Healing Touch at our center for several years. 743 01:05:36,940 --> 01:05:40,820 And I just wondering, could you comment on any studies? 744 01:05:40,820 --> 01:05:43,539 Of course, the problem is when you've got intentionality, 745 01:05:43,539 --> 01:05:46,260 but you have somebody else coming in to look at it 746 01:05:46,260 --> 01:05:48,700 that has the opposite intentionality, 747 01:05:48,700 --> 01:05:49,940 things don't work out. 748 01:05:49,940 --> 01:05:52,539 But I would just like to hear your comments on that. 749 01:05:52,539 --> 01:05:57,300 - Well, I think that it's a very complicated area. 750 01:06:00,579 --> 01:06:03,180 partly because I'm not medically qualified, 751 01:06:03,180 --> 01:06:05,940 but partly because almost all medical research 752 01:06:05,940 --> 01:06:07,260 is very messy. 753 01:06:07,260 --> 01:06:09,420 I mean, even drug companies, 754 01:06:09,420 --> 01:06:11,220 totally orthodox drug companies 755 01:06:11,220 --> 01:06:13,220 have to run large clinical trials 756 01:06:13,220 --> 01:06:14,940 to get any significant results 757 01:06:14,940 --> 01:06:18,060 because there's so much variation between people. 758 01:06:18,060 --> 01:06:21,900 I think underlying some of this research 759 01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:24,860 is what conventional medicine would dismiss 760 01:06:24,860 --> 01:06:27,060 as the placebo effect. 761 01:06:28,140 --> 01:06:30,380 we don't really understand the placebo effect. 762 01:06:30,380 --> 01:06:34,100 It ought not to happen if mechanistic materialism is true 763 01:06:34,100 --> 01:06:36,900 'cause consciousness isn't supposed to do anything. 764 01:06:36,900 --> 01:06:39,980 And yet people's beliefs and expectations 765 01:06:39,980 --> 01:06:41,900 can affect the healing process. 766 01:06:41,900 --> 01:06:46,220 So, you know, I just don't know 767 01:06:46,220 --> 01:06:49,820 whether if one says, well, 768 01:06:49,820 --> 01:06:53,660 therapeutic touch unleashes a placebo effect, 769 01:06:53,660 --> 01:06:55,100 that may be part of it. 770 01:06:58,700 --> 01:07:03,700 The field of the patient has a healing capacity. 771 01:07:03,700 --> 01:07:07,340 All morphogenetic fields in all organisms 772 01:07:07,340 --> 01:07:08,860 have a self-healing capacity. 773 01:07:08,860 --> 01:07:13,460 That's why organisms survive after injuries and diseases. 774 01:07:13,460 --> 01:07:15,940 They don't survive after all injuries and all diseases, 775 01:07:15,940 --> 01:07:19,300 but all organisms have a self-healing ability. 776 01:07:19,300 --> 01:07:22,060 Lower organisms, lower plants and animals 777 01:07:22,060 --> 01:07:24,300 can often regenerate from small parts 778 01:07:25,900 --> 01:07:28,740 can be regenerated after they're cut up 779 01:07:28,740 --> 01:07:30,100 into lots of little pieces. 780 01:07:30,100 --> 01:07:32,220 Each piece can become a new worm. 781 01:07:32,220 --> 01:07:36,260 So, the healing capacity that therapeutic touch 782 01:07:36,260 --> 01:07:41,260 or therapeutic whatever it's called healing 783 01:07:41,260 --> 01:07:45,340 can encourage and unleash. 784 01:07:45,340 --> 01:07:48,460 And I don't think we understand quite how it's working. 785 01:07:48,460 --> 01:07:49,579 At the moment, as I say, 786 01:07:49,579 --> 01:07:53,579 it tends to be put under the rubric of the placebo effect, 787 01:07:56,660 --> 01:08:00,180 that covers several different aspects of healing. 788 01:08:00,180 --> 01:08:04,980 And I don't know the literature well enough 789 01:08:04,980 --> 01:08:06,700 to try and tease them apart. 790 01:08:06,700 --> 01:08:09,660 But it's also, of course, the case 791 01:08:09,660 --> 01:08:13,180 that if you have someone whose good intentions 792 01:08:13,180 --> 01:08:16,140 can unleash a positive placebo effect, 793 01:08:16,140 --> 01:08:18,020 then people who have bad intentions, 794 01:08:18,020 --> 01:08:21,220 like the amazing Randy who wanted it to fail, 795 01:08:20,579 --> 01:08:26,319 I could unleash an opposite of a placebo effect which is known as the no sebo effect. 796 01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:34,239 A bit like voodoo death you know where if people believe they've been cursed by a 797 01:08:48,119 --> 01:08:59,539 Most people do to fly die at six months on that some people argue that's a form of 798 01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:18,079 Thank you, thank you, thank you for coming in Chris, would you like to come in and ask y... 799 01:09:29,399 --> 01:09:41,359 Do you see how venture capital could make an in road into this, have you had discussion... 800 01:10:50,079 --> 01:11:04,800 The idea I already mentioned of an app where you could learn to do day trading more 801 01:11:19,119 --> 01:11:22,600 So some of them are interested. 802 01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:31,479 But most of them still venture capitalists still usually want things that are sort of 803 01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:40,159 If using Google Maps or something like that. 804 01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:47,319 Someone developed an app where people could report on their mobile phone unusual anima... 805 01:11:47,319 --> 01:12:00,359 Of the kind that happens before earthquakes, I think there could be a decentralized app 806 01:12:58,039 --> 01:13:06,560 And so through your talks online, you would have the network to put the money where it 807 01:13:16,199 --> 01:13:33,640 I'm not I don't have an office where I sort of plan how the investments could go. And ... 808 01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:42,439 Thank you. 809 01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,479 Thank you, Chris for coming in. Thank you. 810 01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:48,920 Mike, Michael, will you come in? 811 01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:55,479 Yes, certainly. Thank you for an absolutely fascinating discussion. 812 01:14:10,039 --> 01:14:20,239 There's something very, very subject specific or topic specific about that. It's very 813 01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:41,600 But there's a lot of alternative medicine being developed out there and other areas ... 814 01:14:55,880 --> 01:15:03,159 enhanced understanding of the way that physics has to alter to accommodate things 815 01:15:32,039 --> 01:15:46,560 Rather than an a priori bottom up conviction that this is where the subject starts its 816 01:16:01,239 --> 01:16:08,479 Well, that's interesting about math. I wasn't aware of this in growing pluralism in 817 01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:33,159 Oh, good. But I'm very glad to know that. I mean, it's true that some areas are more o... 818 01:16:43,399 --> 01:16:54,239 But within cosmology, it's quite interesting because the mainstream of cosmology and 819 01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:12,199 They're stuck. But there is an alternative there. The Electric Universe theory is one 820 01:17:12,199 --> 01:17:20,840 And one indeed also, if I can just say it quickly, and that's a subject of particula... 821 01:17:30,359 --> 01:17:42,199 As the people who do indeed see that there's only one possible framework for discussing 822 01:17:55,079 --> 01:18:00,440 In psychology, you've got parapsychology. In medicine, you've got alternative medicine. 823 01:18:00,440 --> 01:18:10,559 And one way of bringing about a pluralism would be to look through each area of scie... 824 01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:37,680 And they're all completely starved of funds, but putting funding into these already 825 01:18:45,479 --> 01:18:54,239 Well, don't I say that also resonates with me. And as they say, you're singing to the 826 01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:24,199 Now, if we had a mathematics that would allow, and I say jokingly, but I also mean 827 01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:03,319 But there's a subtle way of being a vitalist or even a way of being an organist. And I 828 01:20:16,279 --> 01:20:29,720 work really was to underline the distinction between mechanisms and organisms as 829 01:20:33,159 --> 01:20:50,440 Physicists needed new maths, curved space time and so on, to think through some 830 01:20:50,440 --> 01:20:57,680 There's lots to talk about here, which we'll do offline on Sutra, but thank you again v... 831 01:20:57,680 --> 01:20:59,399 Thank you, Michael. 832 01:21:01,239 --> 01:21:06,680 Uh, what would you do want to keep going with questions or shall we close here. 833 01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:10,039 I think we've got time for one more, haven't we. 834 01:21:10,039 --> 01:21:15,800 Yeah. Okay, Hans, would you like to come in? You did write your best. 835 01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:24,840 Yes, thank you. I'm a biochemist by training and I'm working since 10 years as a strate... 836 01:21:56,519 --> 01:22:02,679 We all know that it's a power game and so forth. So, Rupert, maybe you can comment 837 01:22:02,679 --> 01:22:09,559 give me some support, mental and emotional support to carry on doing that, what I'm 838 01:22:09,559 --> 01:22:18,119 Well, I think that one of the things that's most interesting about people in the busin... 839 01:22:25,239 --> 01:22:31,399 and corporate profits and all that kind of thing, but people's private lives are ofte... 840 01:22:31,399 --> 01:22:39,720 and this became very striking to me when I had a friend who was a ruthless businessma... 841 01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:45,960 friendly with him in his off time because I was doing a homing pigeon experiment on hi... 842 01:22:52,119 --> 01:23:00,760 it and when he was on his country estate, he turned it organic, he was preserving ancie... 843 01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:07,720 he was restoring hedgerows, he was cared deeply about the wildlife, but in his 844 01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:13,880 he was ruthlessly competitive. Why was he so competitive? He wanted that money so he could 845 01:23:20,039 --> 01:23:26,279 to get rich because they want to buy a house in the country and get away from it all an... 846 01:23:26,279 --> 01:23:33,000 they want that is because they actually really like being in unspoiled nature and 847 01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:39,639 So I think that one of the problems is to break down this split that we've created i... 848 01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:52,679 orthodoxy in most people's lives because it's the institutional orthodoxy of science, 849 01:23:52,679 --> 01:23:58,599 government and business and then the other more holistic approach which operates in 850 01:23:58,599 --> 01:24:04,760 free time at weekends as millions of people try to get back to nature in a car, cloggi... 851 01:24:12,519 --> 01:24:18,119 fantasies, you know in their holiday fantasies they want to go to unspoiled 852 01:24:18,119 --> 01:24:25,800 don't want to go to places full of huge polluted buildings and polluted air. They 853 01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:31,960 palm fringe beaches on isolated islands or something, the Maldives if they can afford it 854 01:24:40,039 --> 01:24:45,239 down this compartmentalization that we exist within science as we've been discussing this 855 01:24:45,239 --> 01:24:49,559 evening. There are many scientists who are not committed mechanistic materialists so 856 01:24:49,559 --> 01:24:55,720 they pretend to be at work and I'm sure this is part of the business world too and it's... 857 01:24:55,720 --> 01:25:01,159 trying to come out of the closet and we've created this split everywhere in the world... 858 01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:12,439 conventional western-style geneticists, aren't breeders etc. As soon as they went 859 01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:17,559 evening most of them were completely conventional Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Parse... 860 01:25:17,559 --> 01:25:24,039 and they didn't see any conflict they just had a dual life and the same in Japan you 861 01:25:31,399 --> 01:25:38,119 they're sitting under cherry trees reciting haikus and relating to that traditional pa... 862 01:25:38,119 --> 01:25:44,279 nature-loving Japanese culture. So I think that is one of the greatest challenges to 863 01:25:44,279 --> 01:25:50,439 so it's not as if most people need converting from one worldview to another because they 864 01:25:56,279 --> 01:26:03,880 so this other worldview can seep into their working life, their day job. Yeah, it's my 865 01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:08,119 experience too. Thank you very much Rupert, I really enjoy that, it's very inspirational. 866 01:26:22,119 --> 01:26:29,559 your friend Terence McKenna Rupert would say find the others right and in a way that's 867 01:26:29,559 --> 01:26:34,439 we're doing finding the others to realize perhaps we're not so alone and we can work 868 01:26:34,439 --> 01:26:40,119 alone and together towards that which we believe to be true. 869 01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:56,519 to happen but they're mostly fragmented and isolated and I know this is true because 870 01:26:56,519 --> 01:27:01,719 talks in scientific institutions I have the experience of people coming up after the 871 01:27:01,719 --> 01:27:08,119 you know usually the discussion, the public discussion, the Q&A is sort of fairly guar... 872 01:27:14,279 --> 01:27:21,159 conditions etc but afterwards during the tea break or the drink session I have the 873 01:27:21,159 --> 01:27:25,639 over and over again, people come up to me and they look one way to make sure no one's 874 01:27:25,639 --> 01:27:30,599 and they say I'm really interested in this and my dog knows when I'm coming home from 875 01:27:30,599 --> 01:27:35,880 and I was knowing when my wife's on the phone and you know I'm interested in these holistic 876 01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:47,639 my life and so on but everyone else here is so straight and then the next person who 877 01:27:47,639 --> 01:27:52,599 looks both way and tells the same things so I say to them you know why don't you talk to 878 01:27:52,599 --> 01:27:56,039 colleagues and they say there is no one else here who thinks like this and well I know 879 01:27:56,039 --> 01:28:01,000 least four or five people because I've just, they've just told me and I sometimes point 880 01:28:06,519 --> 01:28:13,239 that can happen within institutions and one example though I'll end with just one exam... 881 01:28:13,239 --> 01:28:19,159 College of Psychiatry here in Britain is the professional body for psychiatrists and it 882 01:28:19,159 --> 01:28:25,239 I've forgotten how many thousand members, eight thousand members or something and ab... 883 01:28:25,239 --> 01:28:30,519 ago some of them formed a special interest group within these professional organisati... 884 01:28:36,279 --> 01:28:41,479 seven or eight years ago I was asked to go and speak to the spirituality special 885 01:28:41,479 --> 01:28:47,880 of the Royal College of Psychiatrists on Morphic Resonance and I expected to walk i... 886 01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:54,840 about 20 people a small seminar room and when I led me in there was a lecture theatre wi... 887 01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:06,680 this is the rapidly most rapidly growing group within the organisation it has over ... 888 01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:12,760 members it's now more than that and this gave people within the Royal College of 889 01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:17,880 permission to speak to each other about you know what's really going on in mental illn... 890 01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:29,000 of possession I mean the kind of question you couldn't possibly ask in a normal psychiatric 891 01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:35,479 seminar but they're giving each other permission to come out and so I think thes... 892 01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:42,039 within professional groups or within labs provide one way of doing it a club a socie... 893 01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:53,239 not as isolated as they think and by working together it may be possible to change things 894 01:29:53,239 --> 01:29:59,159 in a way that working separately it isn't so I'm quite hopeful about the power for change 895 01:29:59,159 --> 01:30:08,680 if people work together that's just perfect to end it all thank you everyone for comin... 896 01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:22,119 thank you Alex we look forward to seeing you at our next event which will be in April o... 897 01:30:22,119 --> 01:30:28,920 Alex will be in conversation with Graham Hancock under talking about the future hum... 898 01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:35,319 find the link there in the chat and that is another free event so just sign up on our