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All right, welcome to No Way Out. Today you have Punch, Moose, and G. We're going to talk

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about cognitive dominance, maybe some cognitive warfare, some information warfare,

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fitge and warfare, liminal warfare, futile ends of neuroscience and technology. For those

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guests that are just tuning in for the first time, we do highly recommend you listen to some

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previous podcasts with James Gimmian to understand the Sun's suit a little bit better.

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We have some neuroscientists on the previous podcasts including Dr. McCabe. We have Ian

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and a simple video talking about active inference from the physics side of the house,

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Adrian Bayjons, really Bayjons, really understand flow of the physics of flow. There's

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so many guests that have been on to talk about complex adaptive systems and so forth.

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But today we're going to dive into, I think, what many people are interested in and that's

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neuroscience and technology and more importantly, how do we hack our utaloup and attack

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our opponents, Utaloup? And this may delve into warfare, sports, marketing, innovation.

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It's going to cover many aspects of John Boyd's utaloup. So put your chin straps on and

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let's welcome our guest today, Dr. James Jorgano.

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No. That's awesome. That get it right. Yeah, you got it right. Thanks a little bit of time

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and Italy there. Great to have you here today, Doc. And we'll put you by our

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ography in the show notes, but I do want to anchor on two aspects of your history. Number one,

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your time in the Navy, number number two, your time with Marine Corps. So can you expand on that

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a little bit? Yeah, sure. So after I did on my PhD work and during my postdoc time, I was in

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Native Reserve, Medical Service Corps, went full active duty after that, went through aerospace

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physiology training with particular emphasis on chem bio and biological engagement both with

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regard to left of bang influences for our own guys, as well as those ways that these types of things

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might be weaponized, the use is disruptive of deterrence. At that time, we were still engaged in some

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interesting operations, not only in the desert, but certainly in Bosnia, Herzegovina. And we

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were concerned at that point that some of the older Soviet technology had filtered up and through,

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and that was obviously being used for a number of different disruptive sources. So I did

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all my operational time with the United States Marine Corps. I was at a cherry point. It did some

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work back and forth to test pilot school and also some stuff out on the west coast with regard to

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rejection, seat dynamics. So my particular area of expertise, obviously as a neuroscientist, the

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neuro pathologist, was the effective high performance flight and stress environments, both those

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of we create and those that may be created, not only for us, by our competitors and opponents,

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but those that we can create that are disruptive and how those that inference not only the flight

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environment, the aerospace environment, but any and all those who are involved with that environment

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inclusive of special operations forces. So the idea of what is happening in the air and under the

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sea creates some special stressful environments, physiologically and cognitively. And that was

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the kind of thing that I was involved with, there were a lot of times I said with Q2, mostly electronics,

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and also some chemo stuff, was with station operation engineering, squadron and a cherry point,

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and then did some work back and forth with the two six-month. So it was a good time in

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uniform, very happy and proud to have served, serve it some great people as you know,

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all gave some some cable. So question, two questions. You have a call sign.

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Perhaps we want to hear how you got that. Maybe we'll decide that in a second and number two,

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you work with Marine so did you come across the Udalupe early in your career or when it was that?

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So you get your questions. Which question was also a neurocognitive scientist. So the idea of the Udalupe

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in terms of how humans and other creatures create cognitive impressions build upon both non-Basian,

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initially, and then Bayesian type of processing was fundamental to a lot of migrating.

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The Udalupe as a very, I think, very simplified but important and validuristic brings all those

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things under a common rubric. Each one of those aspects of the Udalupe whether that's observation,

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orientation, decisions, and actions, as you know, a multi-foculin, multi-companential. And so

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the real challenge for us in the brain and cognitive sciences was to look into each one of those

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domains, each one of those operational dimensions, to be able to figure out the underlying

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physiology and how that physiology was important to the cognitions and motions and behaviors

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that ultimately drive those actions, and then to complete the loop, so to speak. So a lot of our work

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also engaged a broader construct of the Udalupe that was really axiomatic to John Boyd's initial

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thesis, which was that nothing happens in the loop without things happening on and out of the loop,

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inclusive the consequences of your decisions and actions, and then how those consequences,

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either affect positively or negatively, valiantly in terms of cognitive consonants or dissonance,

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those Bayesian predispositions and biases that are so important to fundamental learning

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constructs. So our working construct of the Udalupe was the Boudak loop or do-dak loop with a Bay

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or D stands for Bayesian biases and dispositions and certainly the C reflects consequences.

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Those consequences are temporal. Those are curve both in the short term, in terms of a

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immediate reinforcement consonants and surdicimances, intermediate level, and longer term,

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and one of the problems is whether an individual is a response of to those longer term

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consequences and being able to alter what may be their Bayesian predispositions to then change

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their observations and orientations. And that's where the idea of flixity of method in terms of

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cognitive success really requires flexibility of method in terms of the heuristic.

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I say on that note, let's say we're a story behind the call sign to the end.

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Yeah, let's go ahead and let's go ahead and let's go ahead and let's go ahead and let's go.

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All right, so I want to summarize what I just heard.

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Doudalupe really describes the outer and inner workings of the action perception loop, the

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way we emit actions and perceive the external world. And you said it gives us a nice simplified view

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of that. We don't get into biology, we don't get into a lot of the genetics with the with Doudalupe,

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but we do know that orientation contains genetics potentially somewhere biology.

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Our previous experience, our culture and of course, what is known as new information or

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surprise that we get from active inference from that that surprise from the outside world.

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So that's a fantastic summary, summarization of the view of the Udalupe and I do like the idea of the

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Buddha.

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Yeah, I mean, called the add to things to what I said.

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Yeah, I'm saying also also to what to add to what Pontius saying the ability to analyze and

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create novelty quickly. I guess I guess what I'm gathering is that I think in Languah,

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what Pontius saying the Udalupe is not just some simple force that will attack the

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goal model that can be reduced. It's a lot bigger and has a lot more potential.

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Yeah, that is. I mean, you have to think of the Udalupe as being strategically embedded within

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the lifespan of the organism. So the continuity of the Udalupe to contribute back to what then

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becomes those Bayesian dispositions and dynamics, almost initially a Bayesian predispose but

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not necessarily Bayesian system is important. The other important part to recognize, as you both

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mentioned, is that we're dealing with ingrained organisms that are embodied and that embodiment

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occurs in embeddedness within their environments and colleges. So the internality and the

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externality that Udalupe providing that level of flexibility and openness to a variety of different

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circumstances that based upon both prior expectation and realistic reinforcement is fundamental.

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Wow, blown away. Let's dive deeper in a moment before we do that. I want to

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look at some common definitions or look at some definitions of what many people are hearing

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social media today and that's fifth generation warfare, liminal warfare, gray area warfare.

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I just want to get your take on what is fifth generation warfare and is it fit into the

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neuroscience and technology, neural weaponization that we're talking about and same thing with

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liminal warfare, which is rather than sort of get down into the weeds with each one of those. I think

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it's probably fair to put them all under a common rubric, which is that there's some level of

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both symmetry and asymmetry in a current disruptive space, whether that's a competitive space

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or a conflictive space. So what you're seeing is essentially three things dynamically and

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interactive. Number one is some level of cooperation, characteristically with allies, but not just

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in some cases that cooperation does occur with potential competitors. And with that does as essentially

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probe, those cooperators, collaborators, collaborators, and ultimately competitors,

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weaknesses and strengths. And that's vital for the next stage, which is actually to develop

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those domains and dimensions of asymmetry that are going to produce leverageable capabilities

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that are then exercisable in hegemonic domains. So if you're looking at the idea of fifth

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gen warfare or a realistically fifth gen engagement, let's move back from warfare because much of

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that fifth gen space is going to be non-kinetic. And that non-kinetic domain is going to be

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influential domains in terms of disruption and deterrence rather than what maybe purely defined

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as kinetic engagements. Kinetic engagements, I think, are militarily and politically relatively

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easy to deal with because we know the operational rules of engagement. Non-kinetic engagements

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in that sort of fifth-generational space become far more difficult for four basic reasons. The first

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is their non-kinetic. And mounting any kind of response to a non-kinetic threat or a non-kinetic

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harm is difficult unless there is direct attribution which then brings us to the second point,

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which is many of those non-kinetic engagements occur within what is essentially a legal space.

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So attribution can occur within the legal domain but very often there's been some preemptive

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exercise within that domain to create predispositions in the legal environment which is now

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being referred to as law fair. So in other words, a particular nation state or group or perhaps

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even virtual nation even using virtual currencies can create particularly dynamics and parameters

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with an international law that is autofavorable, favors their own interest and therefore any

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transgression outside of those interest might be seen as problematic. Well then that defaults back

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to international law or at least national law with regard to intellectual property and other

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particular legal parameters and then that nation state or virtual nation can then exercise legal

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property and say look we were coloring between the line just because it's not your law it's

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our law and under international law needs to at least be respected with regard to acknowledgement

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for discourse and potential appeal that just draws out the non-kinetic influential time space.

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The third is a very often non-kinetic engagements are specifically oriented towards

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the fog of engagement for the fog of war the who done it. Is it actually an engagement was this

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actually intentional or was this just artifactual as a consequence of many of the domains of

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non-kinetic space whether that's the bio-economy whether that's informational whether that's

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psychological information or in some cases that may also be purely biophysical. But once again the

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question then becomes was there intentionality involved or was this artifactuality intentionality

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then has to defer back to the idea of some level of attribution now that gets tricky. And then the

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fourth domain that I think is really important to the whole exercise is very often these non-kinetic

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engagements can be done in ways that are clandestine at least and covert intentionally which then

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fortifies the third domain which is the relative fog and ambiguity that necessitates the dedication

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of resources on the part of the group that has been assaulted or engaged and then only expands the

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time frame necessary to be able to maximize the opportunities to further use of either the science

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and technology itself in disruptive ways in other words version 2.0 3.0 keep them on their toes

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and guess and just when they figured the first thing out boom you're hitting with something new or

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at least a novel development of version 1.0 be just high-tell it to hell out of there which then leaves

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attribution very very difficult because there really does not appear to be any viable trace

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that's significant enough to be able to generate the necessary military intelligence

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end-or-even political economic force capability and leverage ability to be able to then point

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to finger accusationally. So again I think rather than talking about warfare it becomes far more

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salient to talk about non-kinetic and certain types of kinetic engagements operable within this

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fifth-gen space but by nature of that is axiomatically asymmetrical and by nature of the conversation

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we just had there's a lot of foggyness there air-go your Grey Zone. So for those of us that have

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done a lot of professional reading as we're required to do is is military personnel right we have

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reading lists and one of the reading lists items on many of the lists is unrestricted warfare

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which is written by by two Chinese officers talking about how they're not planning on necessarily

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planning on something kinetic as a showdown in the South China Sea and we had a boy friend and

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collaborator G. I Wilson on our show to talk about this exact point that they might be involved in

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warfare they might be involved in smuggling they might be involved with media influence

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TikTok that kind of a thing that's going to disrupt us that way versus you know we're all from

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the Naval Services right they had showed on may might not be the best idea for them right it

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might be something else that maybe other people aren't considering and maybe other people aren't

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thinking about I mean it sounds as you describe those four things that seems to me to resonate

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what we're being warned about from unrestricted warfare and then the paper that they wrote years

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of years before that ten years the changing face of war and they wrote that couple things I mean

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you mentioned earlier that some of the work of Sunsu and the axiomatic to that work is part of

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that doctrinal stance is know yourself very well but know your opponent even better and being able

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to engage in understanding of the biosycho social dynamics of whoever is going to be the competitor

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and clearly in this case the competitor is the longstanding in quotes west I think speaks very very

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strongly to three things once again number one is the China does have a strategic plan or

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handed towards at least twenty forty nine and it's a consistent strategic plan across a variety

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of different domains S&T and that S&T obviously being doly usable simply being one of them

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the other is within that strategic plan is tactical maneuvering based upon whatever your

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competitors and opponents do far more like a game of goal rather than a game of chess or checkers

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the idea here is to exercise some sustainable advantage rather than a clear win there is no

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end to the game so to speak it's a long game which is really more of a long engagement

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which in some cases placed both the weaknesses and the strengths of the west particularly

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the United States and that we change administrations every four to eight years and at least implicitly

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when those administrations change there's that the king is dead long lived the new king and

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as a consequence of those traction of the lentities of the prior administration can get very

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easily shuffled under the desk into a drawer or literally thrown into the circular file

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and as a consequence that then creates exploitable opportunities for our competitors to be able

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to see where those strengths and weaknesses lie a new and hit him at the shift points

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and the more something is consistent but flexible in its consistency the harder it is to topple

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but if in that flexibility you're getting inconsistencies and literally changes of pace direction

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and tempo will let becomes a little bit easier to manipulate in a longer game and they

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certainly recognize that the other issue is that part of that strategic plan the idea of a longer

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range plan is that it tends to work retroceptively in other words what you get is something

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prospective where do we want to be in 2049 in terms of the S&T and how that's leverageable

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on the global stage bio economically in terms of the actual capability for force influence across

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a range of domains lifestyle health or orientation for heroic rescue etc and of course within the

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military is doly usable entities both to buff up one's own people and to degrade or to disrupt others

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but then the other issue really becomes okay if this is what we want to be year x let's just say

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that year is 2049 because it's historically and politically significant for our trans specific

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competitor well then what things do we need to do now to be able to realize or fertilize that geography

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and terrain so to speak whether that's spatial temporal and both and situationally to allow those

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things to successfully bloom into the garden we want to be able to reap in 2049 it's a very

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different site picture and it's a very different game plan along with that is as you'd mentioned

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the incorporation to multiple domains of what can be seen is the competitive space law fair being

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one psychological operations inclusive of being sensitive to the psychology of your competitor

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not necessarily pure science in the sense that we define in terms of those things that are

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influential but those things that are sensitive to and responsive to what appears to be the

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zeitgeist of elta shang the world view of who I was going to be your competitor and understanding

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that gives you insight to the nuances of the things that they desire and everything in your

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cognitively is based upon a rather simple fundamental but I think heuristic equation which is

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that individuals and groups whether operating idiocyncratically or systematically are orienting

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towards maximizing the expected value of gain over the expected value of loss and almost every

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situation we make are brain defaults to some level of utility even within a variety of other constructs

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whether it's duty based whether it's theologically based et cetera at the end of the day

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we are egoistic both idiocyncratically and systemically and our peer competitors know this

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and so appealing to those things that are going to have at least some level of apparent

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expected value gain versus loss is very important and then determining those aspects of psychological

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engagements by things like media narratives, postures, semiautics iconographies that are influential

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on both a subliminal and liminal level that then also in some cases feedback into law fair because

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the nature and tenor of the law that the narrative of that law has characteristics that are

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intrinsically appealing to parts of our psychology or at very very least create an argument that

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is a logical and rational argument in other words the if and then import as a rational argument

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and it feeds back onto western philosophy much of its own tenets that sort of leaves a step in

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and fetching going yeah that's right so sort of playing our game and the last aspect that I've

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said elsewhere and I'll read right here is that our peer competitors and this is both

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transatlanticly as well as trans specifically have a relatively seamless triple herelics of

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government the research enterprise and the commercial enterprise that allows again a seamless

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boundless and very very rapid transfer of resources, skills, services, deliverables, widgets

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in and out of these various domains as politically motivated by a variety of different dimensions

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not least of which economic obviously biocycle social in terms of things that can affect

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but clearly political and military as well so I think those factors are very important to

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understand with the entirety of of the dimensionality and complex dynamics that we're seeing with

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regard to this new global shift okay so we're talking about the mind here the battlefield the

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brain is the battlefield is the 21st century that you write about quite often in fact in one of

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your papers you bring up right away the key to victory or defeat in war is people the key to people

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lies in the brain we also know that I believe the China's doctrine right now is about mine

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superiority and then Russia has something known as reflexive control doctrine and of course

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John Boyd famously said machines don't fight wars people do and they use their mind people ideas and

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things in that order some of the things you just talked about we're really about how do we

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fold our adversaries back inside themselves right morally mentally physically without suffering the

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same fate ourselves right that's that's something that we get from John Boyd so at the end of the day here

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we're talking about maybe information warfare and cognitive warfare overall cognitive dominance

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how do we understand what's going on in the mind of my and so forth uh dr g i can can you help us

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understand the difference between information warfare and cognitive warfare if there is a difference

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and perhaps take a look at it through the lens of the uraloo. No I think it's important to consider

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those as existing along a constellation or spectrum of capabilities and also context right so I mean

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if we're talking about information information is important to cognition maybe what we do

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cognitively as we take in sense data we then assimilate those sense data with regard to some

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prior disposition or orientation to what those things are based at a how we're sensing that gives us

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a perception that perception very often is linked to some cognitive domain that we like to call

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emotionality and there's nothing that is neutral and things the depositably bailing negatively

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bailing it's just a question of where on that sliding scale we list them and if you really think about it

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you know he asked a listener to think about it think about the idea of neutrality

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and I'd really neutral about anything you know you could say well I'm what kind of neutral about

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Brussels sprouts you have a way to admit it if it was a question of Brussels sprouts and ice cream well

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okay somebody would go for the ice cream somebody would go for the Brussels sprouts Brussels sprouts

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versus pizza somebody's going to go for the pizza so what tends to happen is that neutrality is

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really a relative neutrality and what we're really doing is we're higher archarizing things all the time

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based upon the way they relatively feel to us in terms of gain or loss playing pain or pleasure

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understanding that information plays into the cognitive domain because information both in terms

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of current information as it may have some speculative and predictive value this will lead to XY or Z

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or has it has referential value this then reflects alphabetically is important because it's

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evocative for not only those cognitive domains but those emotional domains that drive decision-making

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is an action so the informational space and the cognitive space really represent an inter-digitation

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true inter-digitation of one hand sort of washing the other the way we cognitively make sensitive

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information is based not only on the information itself and the relative radicality of the information

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what in the philosophical language is sometimes referred to as the dingan zi- the thing on to itself

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but realistically our perception based upon our sensation of that that is then ground to

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some recollection of its relative meaning contextually for us so understanding that informational

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dynamic as an important cog in the cognitive wheel can become exceedingly important and controlling

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and influencing narratives symbols, expressions, dynamic interactions that are all operable within

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the human terrain okay so an information warfare I understand it is controlling the flow of information we

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can get that done through suppression, application, disinformation, misinformation, maybe even influencing

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in the psychological safety of an environment does any of that resonate with you?

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Yeah I think we need to go one step further okay it's also influencing and affecting the content

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of the information and by the content I think we're talking about two things the actual content itself

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and it's constructive presentation in the words how are we spinning that content?

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Are we spinning it away than is evocative of a particular emotional balance that maybe reflective

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of what we know who is ever going to be the recipient is resonant with or two and I think that

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then becomes very important because that brings us then squarely into the psychological cognitive domain

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one of the things that I think speaks interestingly to void is what I'd like to call void 2.0 or 3.0

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and your void's comment there is that machines don't fight wars, humans fight wars.

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Yeah humans do fight wars and they fight wars and the domain of both the mind and if you will

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muscle in other words military might but increasingly there is a reliance upon technology and

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machination. I mean this reflect some of the work of the cognitive scientists in philosophy from

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Merlin Donald who's looked at epochs of cognitive development across human anthropological history

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and what we see now is removed into the cognitive technological domain.

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Whether there is an increasing at least symbiosis or cognitive symbiosis if not actual fusion

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and in this case it's not just a hybrid fusion it's becoming ever more of a chimeric fusion,

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at least a functional chimeric fusion of what humans are capable of doing

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and what adaptive assistive neuro and cognitive technologies are able to do in a way that is

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reciprocally beneficial where the human essentially teaches dynamic to the machine or machine system

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and the machine system does seem to the human but our group specifically working with two colleagues

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of mind Dr. Rachel Vertsman and Dr. Diane DeUlas have also pointed very strongly to the development

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and the iterative development, viability and arguable value of what we refer to as

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neurological intelligence and neurocognitive intelligence where it's not only utilizing machine-based

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systems to assess what are the actual mechanics and processes and dynamics of human thought

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across its various ranges of expression and engagement but also utilizing those techniques and

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technologies to actually interface with human thought, human cognition and human behavior. So the idea here

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I've increasingly complicated sophisticated and precise human machine teaming where you're

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now getting reciprocity whereby the aspects that are beneficial and functional are over-functionalized

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or hyperfunctionalized and those areas of limitation and weakness are therefore gaped and bridged

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as a consequence of both. So pro-boyd certainly there are humans in that loop and on that loop

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but somewhat contrary-boyd the idea that the machines are going to play an increasingly dominant

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or at least expressive role in parts of that loop are becoming the reality today not in the near future

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today. I mean we see that already and part of the challenge and opportunity is to understand

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those processes both on the human side and on the machine side and to understand what's going to

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be necessary to both guide and govern them in those ways they're going to be

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commensurate with international law laws of international and rules of engagement or to what

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extent contemporary ethics laws, inclusive of military laws, may need to be revisited if not

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revised or not completely generated a new to remain a pace if not slightly ahead of what the

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technology is capableizing us to do. Okay so I do want to come back to cognitive warfare in a moment

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some of the comments you brought up here triggered some thoughts about the USS Vincent's years ago

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when we acted at least shot down an airbus and then of course the collisions 2017 where we had

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ships at sea that we're just doing some basic net and I hate to say basic navigation it's not

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basic in the military but we had some tech or human machine teaming challenges you might say

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potentially brought on by some acceleration of technology. As we get into this domain of the human

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machine interface keeping humans in the loop can we go back to that a little bit more how important

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that is that in your mind when it comes to decision making and sense making.

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Debatable I mean I think in terms of a broad-based philosophical and sociological set of western

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constructs and again westerning quotes it's very important. I mean clearly the idea of the individual

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and the primacy of the human person and any and all actions that deal with humans has been

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a longstanding tenet of so much of western philosophy and to some extent the eastern philosophy is well

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however one of the issues that I think becomes very important to understand about some of the

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eastern philosophies is that they are by nature naturally ground let me explain in other words

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they embed the human in the human's natural environment with appreciation for that environment.

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I mean even something is simple and I'm being very very tongue-in-cheek as the the symbology of

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Yin and Yang demonstrates the interaction and reciprocity of those particular forces in dynamic interaction

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and complex dynamic interaction where one increases the other may increase but there's an essence of

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each in both and as a consequence what does that mean so the extrication of humans from their

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environment is not something that has been axiomatic to much of eastern philosophies whereas in the west

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there's more of a humans having dominion over those environments fair enough however this is where things get

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a little dicey your your question is to what that might actually mean in terms of of the way we

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approach some of these cognitive dynamics I think changes as well so if we look at at what what those

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issues are with regard to humans being in or on the loop for us it may be important because of the

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primacy of human value however there's also the construct of whether or not humans are

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imposing a builders bias over the AI and in that way tying AI's hands to do what AI or machine learning

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can do best which is to compensate for human flibbles so if what we're looking for someone to

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correct us and keep us in line well obviously if what we're doing is going back and saying no

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don't do that do this then what we're really doing is at least implicitly auto correcting

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ourselves and simply using the machine is the tool that may be okay but is it is it is it's efficient

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and here's where it gets arguable there are schools of thought that would suggest that humans

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on the loop provide a fail safe mechanism that allow whatever's going on in the loop to occur

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and so there is at least one step where things come out of the loop and is then decemitable

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usable within human ecologies where humans have to give the ultimate thumbs up or thumbs down

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and as a consequence they can then feed things back into the loop that can then modify what's going

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on in those machine learning and or AI loops so has to be more commensurate with what are the

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values and values to zeterata of the human users that are then going to entail obtain an

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ultimately utilized whatever is coming out the other end so to speak but here too what should

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then getting is a post facto bias there is a third school of thought that says look if we build the

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device in particular ways and construct not only heuristics for it but also provide some mechanisms

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by which it can develop some type of quasi hermeneutics in other words it can see into

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what the human users need and want but do so on a more expansive level might it be then that the

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machine system is able to appreciate a construct such as global citizenry far more than if in fact

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a human user what to develop a system that may be at least implicitly if not explicitly oriented towards

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more proximate goals so here you have to entertain the idea that the system itself

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if given doctrine parameters could create systems that are far more expansive and potentially beneficial

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for humans on the whole to be able to be appreciative and engaged across dimensions of what

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might be cultural separation and non-concensus versus those systems that are necessarily

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fostered and engendered to have something of a narrower preceptor or a narrow or facet on that lens

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of course the backside of that the potential dystopian aspect of that what appears to be utopian

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view of machine learning in AI is could the systems themselves then be able to demonstrate or

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construct what they view as common goods and begin to utilize those common goods as

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reprimatization for human culture, human conduct, human concepts, constructs, the human condition

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in those ways that are not necessarily fully transparent to the human user and this is what

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is sometimes super to as a reverse jahova phenomenon in other words now the creation

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becomes far more quote godlike than the creator and then takes on creative capacities that are not

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necessarily you know fully visual or fully visualizable to those who are then being subjected to them

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so in the words if I'm telling you well this is for your own good because I'm able to see around

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the corner over the block and sort of over the edges and you can't are you going to trust me

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so the question here is whether or not that type of a system becomes paternalistic

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the tends to have a negativeistic connotation do what I say not as I do and therefore exercise a

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sum level of controllable dominion not always positively or parentalistic in other words being

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local parental whereby the trust that we put into that would be the same as the child puts into the

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parent which again gets back to the idea of sort of reverse creation or reverse construction

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we'd like to think that in fact that we're the parent and the machine systems are offspring

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but at what point do we sort of surrender that as we very moment do as we age and go all right

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son daughter of mine you know you take care of me because I'm becoming a little more in

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feeble than your far more technologically capable than I am you seem to have no more in as a

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consequence you have a very very different feel for the novelty in various aspects of a simply brand new

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of your environment as it affects me what it's a huge three dynamics are interchangeable for sure

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would it be not so it wouldn't be peer to peer it sounds like when you say paternalistic it sounds

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like it would be more of a subordination like the the human actors are subordinate to the machine

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and as it is a dad of kids I immediately think of the movie Wally the picks are who we were

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the you know the the control the artificial intelligence takes control of the the human population

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number several years that's it's good point I mean it's I think it's with sometimes you

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for it to have the literary and question from the work of of the historian of science Bruno Latour

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science doesn't necessarily give us answers it just prompts every more provocative and controversial

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questions that we're then tasked with answering somehow you know I think the problem with paternalism

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is that it's taken on an ethical connotation that has been negativeistic clearly some of the

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the bio ethical work coming out of the sixties and seventies with regard to control ability etc and

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and when you see that in any term that may have a security implication it stinks all right

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we don't we don't like that idea but the idea of protection again I think is is multi-focal or

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at least is too aged clearly we're looking for something to protect us I mean think here of of

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a blade a knife yeah so it it can be very very useful it can protect you until it drops a falling

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knife has no handle so here too the question is where will the blade cut and am I going to be on

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the right end of the blade or is it that there's something intrinsic about that knife that requires

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a new set of skills to me to use it in those ways that would be beneficial to me well if in fact

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the knife itself comes with a set of not only instructions but actually something that is proactive

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to guide the user and how to do this well and how to do this appropriately to use that tool

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well there's some benefit in that that's the idea of parentalism in other words as a good parent

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you can appreciate there are certain things that your kids can know because of their existing knowledge

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based going back to that old Bayesian thing what can they relate to and then I get ready to know

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for a variety of reasons they don't understand the workings the mechanics of the implications of that

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if in fact they know this knowing leads to doing and they're certainly not in a

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position to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions and or it's something that

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they simply cannot get their head around in other words they're aspect of that that are not only

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unknown to them but are too complicated for them to know right now given the expansive knowledge

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it would require right so what you do as a good parent at least ideally is to take care of your

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kids take care of your offspring you protect them in those ways and you protecting you give them

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information they need to grow into progress you let them grow and progress and you do so in an

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iterative way that's ever more reciprocal that allows you to take your hands more and more off of them

401
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,400
as they grow and mature but you're guiding the maturation process with regard to a common

402
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:12,200
vision of what's going to be their desirable good or a valuable good. Well I mean there's something

403
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:20,440
at least axiomatically not to belabor that term benevolent to that wanting to do good. The problem

404
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,560
is whether benevolence translates into beneficence and practice because what may be good for me

405
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:31,240
may not necessarily be good for you which then gets back to the point that if we're developing

406
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:40,200
machine learning systems, whom AI systems those AI systems by their literally nature should be

407
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:46,040
oriented towards humanity as a whole appreciative of both those things humanity has in common

408
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,240
and those things that humanity has in distinction to have a reconciliatory effect towards those

409
00:38:51,240 --> 00:39:00,200
distinctions towards definable valuable and expressed common goods and commonalities for the human

410
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:06,680
user and this once again says well aren't aware of humans come into that loop and how do they do that

411
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:12,920
and are we then prepared as humans to abandon some of our nationalistic orientations that today

412
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:19,000
have provided us with certain hegemonys etc and sort of trust that to an object of our own

413
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:25,480
artifact and say all right you've got the con because we're going to screw up the pooch and we'll

414
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,280
keep a finger on this because what comes out the other side should be beneficial for us but are we

415
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:37,800
willing at that point to be quote the obedient child if in fact we are understanding and trusting

416
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:45,800
that these systems have perantilistic benevolence as a goal but it may not be apparent to us each

417
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,640
nervous step forward. Do you think I mean when you say that it makes me think of sort of the the

418
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:58,280
we're at right now culturally at least speaking here in the United States that people seem

419
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,360
very willing already to surrender themselves to the whims of things that they've heard

420
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:09,160
be it from an authoritative source that essentially the the technology would take over

421
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,720
and all that's doing is just feeding into that with the raw ready willing to relinquish

422
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:18,040
because they saw it on the news or they heard their favorite person say it about it or they

423
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:23,640
they draw the distinction between you know what they're hearing in media and they accept it as a

424
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,120
reality and it just seems like what you're describing is all that's doing is just getting out

425
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:35,400
sourced to technology in a sense and and tapping into what they're already willing to do and

426
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,960
believe and understand because this is Nixon said they believe it because they saw it on TV.

427
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,720
I mean you know everyone was amazed at that movie far as the gum because there's Tom Hanks

428
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:53,240
interacting with the late John Kennedy right so wow how did you do that? How did they do that?

429
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:59,400
I mean these types of pressed the digitations and the shared demand they were common in film

430
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:05,320
we see it often to me it's a kind of things that we allude to very often is the magic of the stage

431
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,920
shown really when we're talking about magic all magic is as an illusion I mean it's not like

432
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:17,560
real magic or I turn literally a butterfly into the tiger it's illusionism so the question here is

433
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,480
are we falling victim to a new type of magic which is the relative illusion of a

434
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,840
ridicality based upon once again the information that we're receiving and the way we hear it to

435
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:32,280
for have cognitively processed information is being veritable back to the Nixon quote if I see it I

436
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:39,320
believe it well come on Tom Hanks was not interacting with JFK I mean but yet there it is

437
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:45,320
and there's a lot that we can do utilizing our technology that appeals not only to the sensory

438
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:51,320
domain but to perceptual domain so we're taking these things in a sense data and we're

439
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,520
perceptually making some sense and rationalization sense in the cognitive domain based upon its

440
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:03,160
relative resonance to those things we know the world works this way well I think one of the problems

441
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:12,440
with that is that in general the public the informed public has not remained in step with what the

442
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:18,280
science and technology are capable of doing so we're essentially continuing to use yesterday's

443
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:25,400
heristics for the way we engage acquire and utilize information the cognitive domain despite

444
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,280
the fact that the mechanisms in process for generating that information may be quite different and

445
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:36,120
then require at least an additional if not multi-additional processing integrative and analytic

446
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,880
steps again we go back to some of the work of Merlin Donald saying as we move into this sort of

447
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,000
cognitive technical domain it becomes important for the cognitive domains to appreciate the

448
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:52,040
technological capacities so as to be able to work cooperatively with them and not work subjunctively

449
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:59,480
with them so I think that that level of subjugation of the human cognitive to what the science and

450
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:07,080
technology is capable of doing in many ways rests upon our own responsibility to be obligated

451
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:11,560
to understand the consequences of the things we build in the way we use them which really gets

452
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:19,080
back to the term technology I think when many people use technology with the really referring to is

453
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:25,800
technique the tools themselves I mean I've advocated and well on a apologetically reiterate here

454
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:31,400
that I think we have to revisit and reground the word technology to what it means

455
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:39,240
technique logos sort of a very rational accounting a sort of a logo centric accounting

456
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:45,240
of the tools that we build why we build them who's building and what they're building for and how

457
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:52,040
they can be used in a variety of real world constructs and situations so the logos to the

458
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,920
tech-nase becoming ever more important as the tech-nase becoming capable of its own logos

459
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:05,240
Hey Doc I want to bring us back into a tech-ean and hacking the Udalupe and I think one way to get

460
00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:10,280
there is talking about automation bias and I remember a little bit about automation I did go on a

461
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,800
dinosaur tour I did not see any dinosaurs so I was a little upset then as for a refund I didn't get one

462
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,160
but when you think about reducing human capability automation bias can actually do that it can

463
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:27,640
actually attack our previous experience it could be considered a way of attacking our cognition

464
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,880
there are a couple of other elements in there that we can look at to genetics and culture

465
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:38,920
so other those lenses can you help us understand what are some of the technologies or ways that

466
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:46,200
Udahacking or neurohacking or biohacking or everyone look at it what are some of those ways that

467
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,600
you're looking at now to improve human performance and then take a look at the other side it's

468
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,720
how do what what what technologies are out there that are influencing our opponents or can be used

469
00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:00,440
in fluent opponents wow that's that's a huge question so I mean we can go from the relatively

470
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,640
simple low-tech side to the rather complex and sophisticated high-tech side so let's do that

471
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,280
I mean the more we tend to learn about the brain and its interaction with the body and that brain

472
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:15,640
body interaction with whatever ecology environment it's in the more we're able to assess those

473
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:22,280
particular nodes networks mechanisms and processes and by assessing them we not only get a more I

474
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:28,680
think detailed if not precise at least a date precise understanding of how these things work

475
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:35,400
but we also develop a larger roster of targets and if we do the recon so to speak in the

476
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:40,760
neurocognitive domains of the brain that reconnaissance can provide us with what may be

477
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:47,080
accessible and affectable targets for various types of manipulation and then once you're talking

478
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,800
about manipulation I mean you really have to think of any form of intervention as a reostat

479
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,680
and you can do things that are very very mild and things that may be donable or doffable

480
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,880
wearables effectables and you can do those things that are far more extreme

481
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:09,880
that induce a somewhat more durable effect on both brain substance and its structural functional

482
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:15,480
relationships and inclusive of the cognitive emotional behavioral domain and things that are

483
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,760
exceedingly indwelling and therefore highly invasive although the the current move in the field

484
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,200
is to make that level of invasiveness minimize so it's to be able to introduce things into the brain

485
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:33,080
space in ways that are minimally invasive and non-surgical but nonetheless as potent a case in point

486
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,680
I think one of the more exciting projects that I've had the opportunity to interface with

487
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:43,720
is a current DARPA project called N cubed or N3 which is next generation non-invasive neuromodulation

488
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:51,240
and again this is not a high-side project or listen as can go to www. DARPA.mil and just look up

489
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:57,640
and cube to N3 and it's a very interesting and I think in many ways highly provocative project

490
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:03,640
because what it allows us to do is to utilize state-of-the-art engineering to be able to introduce

491
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:09,880
vast arrays of sensors and transmitters into the living brain that make that brain in its functions

492
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:18,440
accessible in real time remotely so I mean here clearly you've gone from things that are

493
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,160
relatively low tech if we assess the brain we can understand various things that we can do

494
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:30,120
environmentally human terrain team interpersonal interactions various forms of of optimal healing

495
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:35,880
ecologies environments nuances training milieu that can then create particular capable

496
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,600
izations and performance and key domains of performance being sensitive to all the parameters of

497
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:45,720
of performance that we have to appreciate in other words certain aspects of performance might work

498
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:52,360
within a system within a neurological system but then the system by its nature is set up

499
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:58,120
its biology is to counterbalance some increases or decreases when it's system so things

500
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:04,200
even out so how many systems do we need to affect to be able to get a deliverable change in some

501
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:09,320
measurable performance metric whatever that may be cognitively behaviorally decisionally

502
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:17,800
whatever the other issue is that at what point do those outputs of optimization asymptote

503
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,480
in other words it just can't get any better I mean the case in point that my my longstanding

504
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:29,560
colleague John Shook and I like to talk about is we'll think about something like beauty I mean

505
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:34,920
you know once somebody's like drop dead beautiful how much more beautiful they're going to get

506
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,960
and is it really noticeable to wow you really gotten ever more beautiful once somebody is is the

507
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:46,920
global what chest champion judo champion wrestling champion how much better are they going to get

508
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:52,360
when they've beaten everyone and continued to beat everyone all right well things change however

509
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:58,520
if in fact those methods that individual uses to become as beautiful as they possibly can be

510
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:04,760
as potent on the wrestling judo archery whatever field as they are are suddenly then popularized

511
00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:09,000
yep so now you're not the only one now you're beginning to get a little bit of that

512
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,440
breaksmanship and then what in the happening is the threshold shifts in terms of what represents

513
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:21,320
not only good enough but perhaps the ideal so what this then causes is a relative escalation

514
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:27,560
in that need to then develop new tools and technologies to be able to not only run with the back

515
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:34,360
but in some way to be ahead of the pack but here too there's an asymptote you can only get so

516
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:39,880
so much I mean realistically if we take a look at even the most avant goddess that interventions

517
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:46,840
their enhancements and if you keep going you then get radical modifications you now being

518
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:52,120
able to do things that humans as a species simply don't do or can't do seeing in the infrared

519
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,840
or ultraviolet range being able to hear ultra sonically or subsonically and a variety of other

520
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:03,320
performance metrics and capabilities humans as a species have not been able to do this and it's not

521
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,200
just a question of donning some piece of equipment like an airplane or an aqua long to do it

522
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:13,000
it's actually modifying the inherent structure so as to be able to then create these physiological

523
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:18,680
capacities characteristically by linking them either as hybrid or chimeric with some machine

524
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:24,760
system that's true cybernetics that's a true cybernetic organism cyborg but this is well as well

525
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:30,040
sensory substitution is possible oh yeah okay look at that's face i mean there are plenty of military

526
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:38,040
programs who have sort of taglines like dogs nose cats eye bat ear and these are all oriented

527
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:43,080
towards creating an increase sensorim in the human user so as to be able to cable-blies and

528
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,480
broader range of functions towards health operational protection enhancement and survivability

529
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,880
are you saying that in the past we were years ago cat size are

530
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,520
same again the cat size we were years ago there are the end of the year right okay i never thought

531
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,920
about that thank you yeah i mean the idea there was what we're trying to be able to develop some type

532
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:10,680
of sort of fancy word fileno mometic never had like night vision yeah and in many ways there are

533
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,600
a whole a whole bunch of other things that have grown from that i mean there are things that we can

534
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:20,280
do within the ultrasonic and subsonic auditory range the idea being able to develop some type of

535
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:24,440
modified sniffing device that allows you to literally have at least an increase the cutie across

536
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:29,880
a range of odors that can then be translated into some some odor that exists within the human

537
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:38,680
neurosensorium is oh it smells like so an ied smells like bedfish right so again those those

538
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,200
those projects have been underway and of course we can also take a look at things like exoskella

539
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:48,360
little suits the idea of being able to link motor control and sensory control to controlling

540
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:54,040
some type of automated systems such as a drone whether it's an aerial drone or some merciful

541
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:59,880
or land-based drone and then again the idea of utilizing machine systems computational

542
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:06,360
systems to be able to decipher if you will or or or recognize certain patterns of human

543
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:13,000
neurological electrophysiological activity before the human user does so as to be able to then

544
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:18,360
cultivate those types of activities in that they are directional towards performance metrics

545
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:25,080
so the machine is priming and guiding the neuro cognitive function of the human user in ways that

546
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:30,840
are obtuse or opaque to the human user but the machine is able to pull that out so utilizing

547
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:36,520
things like neurofeedback utilizing stimulatory based EEG mechanisms whether it's trans

548
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:41,080
cranial electrical and magnetic stimulation various types of vagal nerve stim that use real time

549
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:48,280
sensors so the multi-directionality and reciprocity is is there so to to take that back

550
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:54,600
one step even with radical modifications there tend to be certain ceilings on radical modifications

551
00:52:54,600 --> 00:53:00,360
that least of which is how radically modified the user wants to be and what might be the longer

552
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,560
term implications in words yeah this is great for now but a year from now you're going to have

553
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,960
a horn with purple flowers grown out of your head you okay with that some people may be

554
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,640
and you and I both worked with the so-called community like give it to me it's going to make

555
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,400
me a better war fighter an operator yeah give it to me give it to me now I'm already in harm's way

556
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:23,640
so I can deal with the horns taken out of my head but not universally I mean underwritten to that

557
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,560
concept is that well somebody's going to take care of me right I mean you guys are going to keep

558
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,800
doing research and this is one of the things that we've argued for is it's okay to go there

559
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:38,600
but there better be at least some clear information to whoever's going to be the consented user

560
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,760
that we're either going to continue the research or take care of you or not and if the answer is

561
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:48,040
we're not well then if you want to be the new neuro-covidin if neuro not go right ahead you're

562
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:53,080
boldly going when nobody's gone before but cowboy you're on your own when I get to carry it

563
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:58,040
not to mention the fact that if we put some gizmo in your head that's a fancy neurological term

564
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:03,320
we put some glow-wink your gizmo in your head you get version 1.0 and 5 years from now version 2.0

565
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:09,240
comes out of guarantee you're going to get version 2.0 that could render you and your system

566
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:15,720
obsolete you want fair go to Iowa in the summer there's a great fair every year but we just can't

567
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:22,200
build that into this equation or are we are we and the other aspect of that is yeah there's

568
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,120
only so much we can do to our own and then at some point you have to think to yourself is it far

569
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:33,720
more cost effective in terms of time and literal cost in terms of 6.0 to 6.3 plus project development

570
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:38,200
they just do stuff to your competitors. In other words you can either optimize your own you can

571
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:46,840
denigrate them and those two things are not necessarily on two separate sheets of paper.

572
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:52,120
I mean the same methods we can utilize to optimize our own if flipped on its head so to speak

573
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:57,320
can be used to grant a denigrate disrupt or even in some cases functionally and parametrically

574
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:05,320
destroy your competitors or those with whom you're in conflict. Hey Doc we're coming up on about

575
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,800
our time right now what I'd like to do is invite you to stick back or stay back with us and we'll

576
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:15,160
go into overtime and we'll dive more into the attacking mode you know influencing somebody's

577
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:20,520
in good aloof as well as maybe dive into some neurodata some some some ethics and things like that.

578
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,120
I know we have a lot more to dive into but I do want to thank you for being with us today and for

579
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:28,440
our listeners please join us over on our YouTube channel where you can pick up the actually the

580
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,560
video of all this and continue with your conversation there. Mark do you have anything for the

581
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:37,400
doc before you went to overtime? No I have a long list of things to talk about in overtime and I just

582
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:45,880
want to really hit upon said thanks and some prefer. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that this is awesome.

583
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:51,400
Let's continue this on the attack so I do want to look at neurodata a little bit later on who

584
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:57,480
owns it and all that I know that's a big topic and then the ethics behind this. The optimization

585
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:03,880
is fascinating. You know sensory substitution seen this with hearing capabilities for those that are

586
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:10,840
hearing impaired. We're learning more about autism. We're learning how to use devices to get that

587
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:17,480
feedback and maybe even some capabilities on the body to see when people on our family are not

588
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,560
paying attention to what they need to be paying attention to. So this is just fascinating. What else

589
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:26,760
do you have in store for us on the on the hacking side on the optimization side? Optimization yes.

590
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:33,400
Yeah, it goes all the way from genotype to phenotype to associate type. So I mean if you want to be

591
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:39,480
very very interventional, one could take a look at CRISPR modification. I mean the CRISPR just adds

592
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,560
to the genetic toolkit. We actually had a pretty good genetic toolkit. The only thing that CRISPR does

593
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,640
is kind of brings it across the finish line and makes it a lot more facile and affordable.

594
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:53,320
Fassal in terms of its relative ease of actually doing this stuff and affordable in terms of the cost

595
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,360
both the time it takes as well as the actual price it takes to do these kind of things. Yeah.

596
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,800
And you know we were kind of stepping in fetching for a while thinking, oh yeah well I mean this is

597
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,040
great. An animal models whatever we're not going to do it in humans. Well, our trans-Pacific

598
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,840
peer competitor said yeah we can do it in humans. And what that did is that it advanced if you will

599
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,720
deploy book one step. And what once you can move those pieces on that proverbial global chessboard

600
00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:21,880
of what can be done. Yeah. You then entertain the discourses about what should be done in interim,

601
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,760
what you're really doing is you're scratching your head and scratching your butt going,

602
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:29,400
well can we do the things we should very often the answer is no so let's just do this anyway.

603
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:34,440
That's face it. Something like CRISPR or other forms of genetic modification not only in

604
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:40,760
utero but postnatally and throughout the lifespan have tremendous biomedical potential. I mean we're

605
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:46,120
seeing this in things such as being able to treat intractable neurogenetic disorders such as hunting

606
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:54,360
certain predispositions for genetically induced motor neuron disorders like ALS. The idea of some

607
00:57:54,360 --> 00:58:02,360
of the dystrophies some of the neurometabolic syndromes and so forth. But let's not kid ourselves.

608
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:10,280
I mean if what we're able to do is identify even curse sorely those genetic pathways that

609
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,800
either through convergence, multiple genes coming together to produce a phenotype. What divergences

610
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:21,240
a few genes working to create broad phenotypes if we can understand those patterns and relationships,

611
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:26,600
those are targetable entities. For whatever happens to be those phenotypic or endophinotypic

612
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:32,120
expressions, inclusive of capabilities for cognition, emotion and behavior. So is there some

613
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:38,680
direct ability through the genome to be able to then produce structures that we know are

614
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:44,280
influential and contributory to certain functions? Yeah, you bet there is. Absolutely. Are we there?

615
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,280
We're certainly in the anti-room. I mean I think we've certainly crossed that threshold,

616
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:53,400
demonstrating the viable capability and survivability of CRISPR and related genetic techniques

617
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:58,280
in humans. The question then becomes, well what's going to happen with the longer term effects.

618
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,560
So in other words, I'll be now getting what it's sometimes referred to as vexal blood effects.

619
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,320
Basically being would dicked around with nature because we thought we knew how it worked

620
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,720
until we dicked around with it and then up-surprise, we didn't know how it worked and down the line

621
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:15,960
you know, next thing you know, people will grow in tails and whatever. Well, okay, again,

622
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:20,520
this argues back to the need for if what you're going to do is to engage that construct,

623
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:26,680
then you also need to have the contingency of continuity of both research and clinical care,

624
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:31,080
or very very least informed people that you either have it or you don't. If they want to

625
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:35,640
go all they want to do it great. So genetics represent one area. The other area of genetics that I think

626
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:40,760
is fascinating is epigenetic modification. Right. So the idea that you need not necessarily

627
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:48,040
interact directly with the extent genome, but by identifying particular epigenetic dispositions

628
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:55,000
and viable trends in that individual, people to alter epigenetic expression through relatively

629
00:59:55,000 --> 01:00:00:00,440
low or relatively high-tech means. And in altering that epigenetic expression, which are essentially

630
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:06,440
doing is inducing phenotypic shift. So you're either doing it directly through the extent genome itself,

631
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:11,800
or you're working through epigenetic modifications that are essentially switching certain genes

632
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,040
and gene products on or off, differentially through the lifespan, but doing so selectively.

633
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:22,360
So we can work with in the genetic area. If we bypass the genetic area or use the genetic

634
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:28,360
area synergistically, we can then go into sort of the physiochemical biological area. And I view that

635
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:34,120
as a single kind of end-to-doer. By affecting the physics, literally the physical chemistry of

636
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:39,240
particular molecules and a variety of scales, now from the nano all the way up to this sort of gross

637
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:44,200
network, no network effect. Okay, we're able to affect the chemistry by affecting the chemistry,

638
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,880
you're able to affect the biology, not only in terms of the chemical biology, but that chemistry

639
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:56,520
also plays into structure. And very often what we tended to think, and again, I mean, as a neuro pathologist

640
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:01,560
and as a neuro scientist, we put the chemistry in one little silo, and we put the anatomy in

641
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:06,440
the other silo, forgetting that the anatomy is built upon the chemistry. So if we change the chemistry,

642
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:11,480
we can change the building blocks of that anatomy in a directable way. And there's a question for

643
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:16,120
the physics. We can change the chemistry to change the anatomy in vice versa. And we're now

644
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:22,840
understanding that the way a brain works is far more like a Wi-Fi network than like a conventional

645
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:28,600
wire telephone network. The wires are there, the interconnectivities are there, but that's not

646
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:36,200
really how the thing works. It works by forming clicks of cells that are differentiated into

647
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:42,360
discrete node network patterns based upon the anatomical configuration and characteristics

648
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:48,920
of the structures of various areas of the brain. The brain works far more like a Hilbert space,

649
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:55,400
an end-dimensional Hilbert space that affords much, much broader range of communicative capacity,

650
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,960
than we thought before. And part of that is our new understanding of physics, and the fact that

651
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:04,920
although pure quantum effects are probably not sustainable in mechanical systems,

652
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:09,960
if you're coming from a quantum-based substrate, you're retaining certain quantum

653
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:14,840
characteristics, even in a mechanical system, that predisposed that mechanical system to

654
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:20,360
it maybe, what looks like freaky effects that are quasi-mechanical, in other words, communication

655
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:26,520
at a distance based upon resonant features that literally at resonate with various structures

656
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,840
based upon very, very subtle change in local and your macro environments. And we now know

657
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:36,200
that's how the brain works, which increases its communicative sophistication speed and efficiency

658
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:44,200
many, many, many, many times over. So we have that capability. And that is an effective

659
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:48,920
capability, essentially using three domains, again using the physical domain energetically,

660
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:54,280
using the chemical domain, and then utilizing the bio-physical domain on a variety of scales,

661
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:58,680
from the cellular all the way to the social environmental. I mean, things feedback,

662
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:07,000
environmental socio-psychobilogically, just as they go chemo-biocycosopially. And then the last

663
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:13,960
domain, which I think is equally important to entertain in this capacity, is the actual ability

664
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:21,800
to develop those devices that are specifically interactive. And those devices, again, range from

665
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:28,920
things that are applicable to the brain and body system. I mean, here, donnables and doffables,

666
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:35,560
wearables, you have to put the individual in the device to those things that are far more remotely

667
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:42,600
and or distantly capable of directable forms of energy. Things that are not necessarily wearable,

668
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:49,480
but things that are intrinsic, implantable. On a variety of levels, whether they're implantable,

669
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:53,880
again, actually within the brain, or whether there's some mechanism within the brain,

670
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:58,920
inclusive a chemical mechanism that can then be engaged peripherally by changing the overall

671
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:04,200
physiologic tone or by making that particular brain far more susceptible to externalized forces.

672
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:08,760
So there's a lot of things we have in our potential tool kit right now,

673
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:12,680
and there are various stages of development in it, or a regional on the research development

674
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:17,880
test evaluation in use pathway. Dr. This is incredible. I do want to come back to CRISPR and

675
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:22,680
input genetics in a moment as a way to attack. Right now, I do want to take a look at psychedelics

676
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:30,760
with you and maybe some other modalities. We know a lot of veterans are going through PTSD, TBI,

677
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:36,840
other like anxiety stress and they're using psychedelic, uh, since it therapies to overcome that.

678
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:44,360
That's an outside-in approach that it has some very non-neroplasticity, right,

679
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:50,680
with the way the brain's wired. Can you tell us what your thoughts are on psychedelics,

680
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:56,360
or maybe other what do you call them? There's other type of psychotherapy. That's a dyosopeense

681
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:00,120
being another one. My cousin took me to Woodstock when I was 10, so I could talk all of that.

682
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:05,880
When you were 10, when you were 10, wow. Well, I explained everything,

683
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:10,520
I'm sure it does. She can be very careful. It was like, we're going to concert. They were like,

684
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:15,080
yeah, cool concerts. We only got as far as the throughway, but it was still okay.

685
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:20,280
I left it. Now we know we're born in 1959. So the day I had to write it, so you

686
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,840
did a research for every day. Yeah, I left it 10. I came home from the concert. I was 25. Nice.

687
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:36,360
It was an eye opening experience. Let's use that as an example. The psychedelics were

688
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:41,320
developed for a variety of purposes, not least of which is the whole idea of psychedelic

689
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:47,240
ist mind expansion. In some cases, the psychedelic recene is viable clinical tools. Certainly,

690
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,840
the whole Timothy Leary movement of the early and middle sixties was indicative of that.

691
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:57,800
And the social spread of the psychedelics was because they work. They didn't work. They wouldn't

692
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:02,120
become popular. So literally getting them out of the bag, taking that cat out of the proverbial

693
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,560
bag, well, it's great. Well, now we got this cat on our lap. That's cute. We can pet the cat at

694
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:11,320
hers. It's really cute. But it's got teeth, claws, it's got a pooper. All right. And so with

695
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,800
so many things, I think there are a number of interactive factors that need to be taken into

696
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,840
consideration. But one do we really know how they work and the answer was no.

697
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:24,440
We had a basic idea of what was going on in terms of the neurochemistry and pharmacology.

698
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,840
But the more you know about the substrate, the more you know about the brain on a variety of levels,

699
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,840
the more you know about the molecular and physical chemistry, the more you know how these things work,

700
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:37,000
and a much more detailed way that provides insight that could feel better judgment than how they

701
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:41,560
could or should or shouldn't be used. Number two is once these things get out into the public,

702
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,960
all bets are off because now you don't have any effective clinical gatekeeping in terms of dose,

703
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:51,480
timing, individual differences, pharmacogenetic variabilities and vulnerabilities. Good luck.

704
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:59,880
I mean, good luck. And then the third is once these things then became regulated and then became

705
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:07,160
controlled substances, there was then the imposition of this level of legal liability and the

706
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:15,320
tigesness that forced much of this underground and made these things, quote, bed, which in many ways

707
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:20,920
stultified, if not completely ended, a lot of the research was ongoing other than those things

708
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:27,160
that were focal to addiction. And again, many of the psychedelics, although it may have been thought

709
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:32,360
early on to have addictive potential, that was more psychological, commonality and psychological

710
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:36,600
if not dependence but reliance rather than a few, than a true pharmacological addiction.

711
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:41,800
The other issue was with the actual preparation, when these things moved out of the clinic and

712
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:46,440
into the community, the preparation of these drugs became somewhat more bastardized in there

713
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:53,240
for the relative purity, the specific imposition of their pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics

714
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:59,240
may have shifted, so then you get into dosing issues, purity issues basically this is a shitstorm.

715
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:05,480
So fast forward, so a lot of the research that I was doing during the middle 1980s and

716
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,160
much of the stuff that actually got me involved with the military was navy funded work looking

717
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:17,320
at a drug cult, methyntaeoxymethymphetamine, street name is Excesi, Molly. And the original thought

718
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:23,160
was that this would be an ideal weaponizable agent because it makes people feel really good and

719
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:28,520
it was thought at that time that it wrots your brain cells, it causes a particular degenerative effect

720
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:34,040
in a particular subclass of brain cells that utilize the neurotransmitter serotonin and it causes

721
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:42,200
them to whither and retract and become all withery and wretched on the vine. That's not true at all.

722
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:46,520
I mean what we found out actually occurs is that you cause dumping effective serotonin

723
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:51,800
and the physical chemistry of that actually causes those nerve endings to retract because they're

724
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:57,560
not full of those vesicles that provide the necessary physical oppositional structure to keep

725
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:04,200
those end branches, puffy. So basically it's like deflating a balloon, the balloon deflates

726
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:08,200
and you're reinflate the balloon, the balloon reinflates, there was no loss of attachment so to

727
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:14,120
speak. It wasn't that you're knocking out brain circuits. But I bring that up to you for an exemplary

728
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:20,440
reason. Interest in the Silicon bio domain has always been there, it's just a question of how much

729
01:09:20,440 --> 01:09:25,000
we know and what do we do with what we know and what do we do about the stuff we don't.

730
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:31,160
So given that science by its nature is self-critical and self-reversing, what do we do with these

731
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:37,000
with these revisions? Well one thing to do with the revisions is revisit the meaning of what this

732
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:44,200
revised information essentially confers and should contribute. And I think that's where we are with

733
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:48,600
many of the psychedelics which has really brought us to a multiple capableization number one,

734
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:56,840
do they produce psychedelicis? Yeah, they do. Number two is psychedelicis a simple binary or

735
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:01,080
does it exist along a relative spectrum of capability and effect that may be dose dependent?

736
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:06,280
Seems to be, but then you get to send it to the whole microdosing issue. And then the other is actually

737
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:13,320
what is the mechanism of that psychedelicis? And is psychedelicis a necessary component for some

738
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:18,840
of the other potential effect that these may have in terms of both those related effect and how they

739
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:26,440
then interact with a neural system that has some level of pathogenesis that has some pathology.

740
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:31,240
So the neural system that may be disrupted because of some type of traumatic stress,

741
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:38,040
incurrence or condition, the individual has treatment refractory depression, anxiety disorders,

742
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:44,680
et cetera, et cetera, might in fact have a very very different set of initial conditions

743
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:49,800
that are important to understand the underlying mechanism of these drugs because this could

744
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:54,760
then have a directable effect in a very positively valent way. So what we've done is we've re-open

745
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:59,880
the book with far more information necessary to write those chapters with the hope that we're

746
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:03,640
going to revise the previous chapters that were based upon information available at the time,

747
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:10,360
no great sin there that's just sort of if you will humblest naturalism. But we can't rely on those

748
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:15,160
old data when we have new information, new data that are far more precise, far more specific and

749
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:23,000
therefore much more relevant. Fantastic. That's an alcohol. Alcohol is on base. It's a drug, right?

750
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,840
You know, you're talking about a time-less name. So I mean growing up in it.

751
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:35,320
I read an article that I read an article once that sailors and Marines use alcohol occasionally.

752
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:43,320
Yeah. I'm not buying it. I don't buy it at all. I think there's no occasionally about it.

753
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:50,520
You take that experience. I mean a lot of that is cultural too. I mean I wasn't joking when I said,

754
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:55,880
you know, coming from an Italian to Rolian background, I mean kind of breastfed on that.

755
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,400
We thought one was red and one was white and that's where your breastfed on is on every tape.

756
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:04,520
So there was no inherent to boo. I think that we're learning a little bit more about some of the

757
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:09,960
adverse effects, the multi-systemic adverse effects alcohol I can have. But I think we're also

758
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:16,360
understanding there are some potentially beneficial aspects of moderate to mild alcohol consumption.

759
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:24,040
The question is how do we then literally filter out those deleterious characteristics and effects

760
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:29,880
and preserve those that are somewhat more beneficial? Now I mean clearly for a number of individuals

761
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:37,160
they're using alcohol for it's an e-brand effects, right? I mean you want to cop a buzz and

762
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:44,280
makes you feel good. Yeah, fine. Is there a way to sort of make you feel good without some of the

763
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:49,080
deleterious effects that we're seeing? The hepatic effects, the other multi-system effects,

764
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:53,960
debate on whether or not alcohol is predispositional to certain types of cancers,

765
01:12:54,440 --> 01:12:59,000
and again I think a lot of it goes back to the older aristotelian mean. I mean doing things in

766
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:05,560
moderation. But then defining what moderation is and this is where I think issues such as precision

767
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:11,720
of personalized medicine really need to step to the plate. What may be moderation for me might not

768
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:17,800
necessarily be modification for you or Joe Schmucketelia or Sally Slippinslaid. So how do we then

769
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:23,240
use the tools and methods we have at our disposal to be able to determine what are those optimal

770
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:28,520
limits parameters and thresholds for individuals throughout their lifespan? So as to maximize

771
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:36,280
those positive effects, if you will benefits, and minimize burdens, and also do so in ways there

772
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,280
may be maximally efficient in those who may have minimal opportunity for that information.

773
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:46,280
So these are the kind of things that we're wrestling with, which again recognizes the reality of

774
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:52,200
like I said you big wouldy of alcohol, but certainly it's relative presence and I think it's

775
01:13:52,280 --> 01:14:01,080
socially acceptable presence, but also needs to take into a chord that I mean the social environment

776
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:06,280
is a human enterprise and we're humans who are doing that enterprise and with therefore

777
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:12,200
responsible for the consequences of our own effects and actions. So looking at those ways that

778
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:17,560
alcohol can fur as relative benefits as well as the burdens risks and harms, then becomes important

779
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:22,520
for our revisionist stance for not only what we put into it and how we use it, but what are the

780
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:27,880
actual parameters for use? And again, I think the more we're learning about our biology, the

781
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:33,480
more specific and precise we need to be, it's great to give lip service to personalizing precision

782
01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:37,080
medicine. But it's something quite different when we're actually looking at it in the health

783
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:41,240
promotions model. This is much of the work I'm doing with my colleague and Germany professor

784
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:47,880
Nicole Kohl's. What is contemporary health promotions on the global stage based upon key individuals

785
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:52,840
and what it is they're doing within particular collectives and communities? And how do we take that

786
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:58,280
into a larger modeling that is then both viable and valuable in real-world context?

787
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:07,960
Dr. Lippa more on this on diet, food, and genetics. We understand that what we eat matters, right?

788
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:14,200
Really about brain performance too. Today we have a lot of performance drinks out there that

789
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:17,880
probably are not good for your brain. Caffeine seems to be okay for a moment.

790
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:24,760
But how important are genetics in determining what people should be eating?

791
01:15:25,480 --> 01:15:29,880
And that's a back-to-ear example of caffeine. Okay, so one of the things that we recognize is

792
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:36,520
that humans are what we call heterogeneous for the particular expression of a gene that is important

793
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:43,080
for the relative metabolism of caffeine. It's called a scep gene. And some people are rapid metabolizers

794
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:48,520
and some people are very slow metabolizers. And what we know is that there are differential effects

795
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:54,840
downrange beneficial as well as burden some of not potentially risky effects of caffeine.

796
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:59,560
There are not based upon the caffeine but are based upon the individual's metabolic profile

797
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:03,800
which is at least in part genetically determined. And perhaps,

798
01:16:04,440 --> 01:16:10,760
may even be genetically metabolifiable. So the issue there is not just to take a look at genetics,

799
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:15,560
genomics and or even epigenetics but to say, all right, now what does that mean with regard to

800
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:20,760
interactions with various things that we have in our environments? And then what can we do on a variety

801
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:26,440
of low-to-high-tech ranges to be able to modify those responses so as to optimize the outputs?

802
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:37,480
Processing here. Yeah, as I've just finished some caffeine.

803
01:16:39,480 --> 01:16:44,120
The same is true for example with a guard to alcohol. So there are some people who are rapid metabolizers

804
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:48,840
and there are some individuals who are not. And each and all of us has some capacity to modify that.

805
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:52,200
This is going to go over great with your listeners based upon the amount of booze we drink.

806
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:55,880
Those are inducibility enzymes. The more you drink, the more you can. I mean, they're

807
01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:00,200
satriable. It gets so particular point. But there are some people who have a very, very high tolerance

808
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:04,680
so to speak for alcohol. And we know that even those individuals are high tolerance if they become

809
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:09,640
abstinent after a drink or two suddenly they find your tolerance as decreased quite a bit.

810
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:17,320
No magic there. And that's the sham tool. It's correct. It's called the immersion effect.

811
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:21,400
So the whole idea of the bourbon bath for example on a regular basis. I mean, clearly, that's going

812
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:26,040
to get your enzymes up. So the more of those enzymes are workable, the more we can metabolize.

813
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:31,480
Well, that's a good thing or bad thing. I mean, it's just a thing. But we're seeing this across a variety

814
01:17:31,480 --> 01:17:35,480
of other systems as well. And it may be the same for the psychedelics, for example. We know that

815
01:17:35,480 --> 01:17:40,600
there may in fact be very, very different genetic and or phenotypic expressive patterns

816
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:46,440
of certain receptors, serotonin receptors and not just the receptor, but the actual membrane

817
01:17:46,440 --> 01:17:53,720
environment in which that receptor lives that may be differentiated to certain psychedelics.

818
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:58,680
So it may be that for some individuals, they have a higher capacity to bind those psychedelics.

819
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:03,640
And in some cases, not only to bind those psychedelics, but to hang onto that psychedelic,

820
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:08,840
at the binding site, which gives it a very, very different response set of parameters. So for

821
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:13,960
some individuals, they do very, very well on very, very low doses or for other individuals,

822
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:20,280
higher doses is necessary. And we know this in other domains of medicine. The question then

823
01:18:20,280 --> 01:18:25,880
becomes, are we at a point where we're taking that knowledge and that capability and putting it

824
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:31,880
into viable and broad-based enough use for it to have health promotional benefit? And the

825
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:38,440
short answer to that question is generally no. So more needs to be done there. Okay. So we're not,

826
01:18:38,440 --> 01:18:43,080
you know, we're not proponents of recreational use of psychedelics or anything like that. We're,

827
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:48,280
you know, our view is really needs to be controlled. In fact, we, we know a lot of folks that are

828
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:53,880
inside the DRD now that are on the MDMA studies and leading that as well. So essentially that

829
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:59,800
yet, that connection years ago to, you know, bring that up during this episode. I want to switch

830
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:05,000
over to Epigenetics and as an attacking mechanism and mainly from the perspective of overuse of

831
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:12,120
technology from for kids. Things like TikTok or access to iPads or the dangers of being in front of

832
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:16,600
technology all the time. Can you talk a little bit about that as a potential way to attack their

833
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:24,360
arbuted? Yeah. Well, I mean, this, that opens up Pandora's jar. I mean, it really does. So you take a look at

834
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:28,680
some of the work of somebody like, for example, Manfurch Pitz who's, who's discussed the idea of

835
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:33,960
digital dementia. Some of Spitz's argument is that the more we use these various

836
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:40,760
digitalized computational techniques and technologies, the quote, Dumber, we're becoming.

837
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:46,600
I disagree. I don't think that's the case at all. I mean, I think we can look through

838
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:52,520
a much of human history and what we see is that there is an iterative use of a variety of different

839
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:58,040
methods and tools that humans have put into play. So as to be able to simplify the way they're able

840
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:02,360
to acquire and utilize information in those ways that are important to survival and flourish.

841
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:08,680
That's been sort of part of the human condition. Again, I refer back to some of the very important work

842
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:14,680
of Merlin Donald, who's, who's traced these epochs of the way human cognitive function has

843
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:21,400
occurred in conjunction with the use of our set of various tool kits. As the tools tend to improve

844
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:26,280
and become more capable and more sophisticated, what you're seeing is that not only are the cognitive

845
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:32,120
processes necessary to generate those tools, becoming more capable and sophisticated, but then

846
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:38,040
as a consequence of the use of those tools, we're seeing in some cases a gradual shift in cognitive

847
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:44,040
and other cases far more of a puny and paradigmatic shift in our cognitive capacity.

848
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:49,800
I think the ubiquity of information has been afforded by computational and cyber systems

849
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:55,160
has represented not only something of an evolutionary change in cognitive capacity,

850
01:20:55,160 --> 01:20:59,960
but a revolutionary change. In other words, we can't go back to every word before.

851
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:04,440
That's not to say that those are things that we can't do. I can still go to the library

852
01:21:04,440 --> 01:21:09,000
take a book out and physically read it, and there's a lot of things from me personally

853
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,680
that I think are very tangibly appealing about opening a book and reading it whether it's on

854
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:18,680
airplane or night before I go to sleep or whatever. It's not a question of making certain things

855
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:23,800
completely superfluous, but it's a question in many cases of synergizing those things.

856
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:28,840
Can I still open up a research paper, a journal, a book and read? Yeah, I can.

857
01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:34,120
Can I also acquire information on the internet as to where to get that book, what book that

858
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:38,680
information is in and perhaps to order that book on real time? Sure, I can. I don't have to

859
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:43,080
wait for the library to open any longer to do that or find the book. I can find the book.

860
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:48,520
But I can go one more step. I can actually find the information and through that information,

861
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:53,240
I can then cross-reference that information, to be able to engage if you will an almost

862
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:59,160
fractal capabilities of my cognition in a much shorter period of time. So I'm able to do more

863
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:05,720
and less time. I don't care how you twist that. That's an efficiency metric. So in many ways,

864
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:10,680
our techniques and technologies are adding not only to the effectiveness of our cognitive

865
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:14,600
capability given the ubiquity of information that is literally at our fingertips,

866
01:22:15,480 --> 01:22:20,120
but also the efficiency of the acquisition and perhaps use of that. I can now transmit

867
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:26,200
that information to you via electrons in seconds, or you have to be that have to write you a letter

868
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:33,240
and send it by post. So what we're seeing is certain compressions in terms of the temporal

869
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:40,600
framework with particular expansions in terms of the volume frameworks, quantities, and breath,

870
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:47,480
and as a consequence that has to be appreciated in terms of its relative progress and positive

871
01:22:47,480 --> 01:22:54,040
development of the aspects. There's never a free lunch. I disagree with Manfred Spitzer that

872
01:22:54,600 --> 01:23:01,320
we're getting some form of cognitive dementia, but I also think that one of the things that

873
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:06,760
goes along with that, where I do agree, is that you are getting an increased level of

874
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,880
reliance. In other words, you're getting digital dependence.

875
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:18,200
That's basically as you know as well as I, if there was something on the tip of your tongue

876
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:22,360
10 years ago, you have to think about our call of friend and go, oh, come on, who,

877
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:26,360
who, what was the name of that, that who's saying let's get it on? Come on, it's right on the tip

878
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:32,200
of my tongue, who is no more of a guy. I'm going to go just home the damn thing into into your iPhone,

879
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:40,520
and I'll tell you, Marvin Gaye, let's get it on, 1973, Motown. So we were using now different methods

880
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:51,000
of information, access, acquisition, and use of affordability and provision. And this also requires

881
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:55,880
a knowledge and skill set. So I think what we're seeing is not necessarily the loss of certain

882
01:23:55,880 --> 01:24:01,480
things in a pathological, pathologized way, but the gain of certain things, what's the gain of

883
01:24:01,480 --> 01:24:04,680
anything comes certain burdens and those burdens need to be appreciated as well.

884
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:12,120
Those burdens include stress and burnout from having that extended mind to my computer or to my

885
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:17,560
iPad or to my iPhone. Well, you know, I mean, you and I know that when we were both wiggle and

886
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:22,120
sticks in an airplane, we talked about the idea of chasing snakes in the cockpit and

887
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:27,720
held them fire, right? Information overload and becoming overcome by events and those events can

888
01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:32,680
be informational events. You know, the whole beauty of the 14 platform is there was a guy in back,

889
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:37,560
there was a Rio. And so, you know, you were, you were wiggle and the stick and punch in the pedals

890
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:42,440
and the guy in back was basically tracking where the bogies and bandits were and giving you that

891
01:24:42,440 --> 01:24:47,400
level of situational awareness. You know, one of the problems with some of the newer airframes

892
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:52,360
is that they've increased, if you will, the amount of information that needs to be processed

893
01:24:52,360 --> 01:24:58,520
by the pilot absent the WISO or Rio or ECMO. And as a consequence, becoming more dependent upon

894
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:03,560
the machine system to filter what information needs to be presented to the pilot at that particular time.

895
01:25:04,440 --> 01:25:09,400
Well, if it's simply feed forward, well, then what you're really asking the human component

896
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:14,440
is to adapt to the rapidity, speed, and your tender of the device, the machine system.

897
01:25:14,440 --> 01:25:18,520
But if there's a feedback mechanism, well, then things become a little bit more cooperative.

898
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:22,680
In other words, what can the handle, the pilot handle at this time, it may not necessarily

899
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:28,040
be important for the pilot to monitor fuel, stay hydraulic pressure. Yeah, we see that both engines

900
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:32,200
are turning pretty good. I've got good suck pressure on both. I want to know my armament

901
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:36,120
state is pretty good. But what's important for me right now is to track this thing that looks like a

902
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:43,960
bogey might be abandoned. Oh, and what else? So again, it's not just a provision of information,

903
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:49,240
but it's that parsing of information, so it's to be able to add some precision to what would

904
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:54,680
essentially be the pilot's bootack by as observation orientation decision, action, and consequence

905
01:25:54,680 --> 01:26:02,440
schema. But again, that requires reciprocity machine system as it's created. So I think where,

906
01:26:02,440 --> 01:26:08,200
or at a point, is that there's a lot of things these technological systems can do. There's a lot

907
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:13,480
of things we can do with them. But there are also important steps that need to be taken, so as to

908
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:20,840
maximize or optimize or performance capability interactively with those machines. So as to avoid

909
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:27,320
those detrimental burdensome, if not negatively harmful effects, that machine overloaded

910
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:31,720
and becoming overcome by the events of machine use and technology use could incur.

911
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:33,000
Okay.

912
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:41,720
I'm just looking at my notes here. Back on the attacking side, there's a potential that

913
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:48,280
the data that are collected can be used against us. So 23 and me gets some other

914
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:55,400
commercial technologies or access that people have to provide information to somewhere,

915
01:26:55,720 --> 01:27:00,280
some black box somewhere. But that information can be used against us. Is that true? And if so,

916
01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:03,240
what do you use on?

917
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:11,640
Has anyone who's, has anyone who's been divorced, will tell you any amount of information can be used against you?

918
01:27:12,280 --> 01:27:16,920
I mean, that's face that it means you can part of the readable Miranda rights, anything you say,

919
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:22,920
canon will be used against you in a quarter of law. So any information that is available about

920
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:28,760
you or from you is essentially by valent and it's capacity to provide information that is

921
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:33,960
is useful but to what intent? I mean, everybody's got skeletons in their closet.

922
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:37,640
And it's just a question of what those bones mean and now people wield them.

923
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:43,800
You know, hock and ing back to that wonderful scene in 2001, a bone is a weapon. You got skeletons in your

924
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:49,480
closet. I call wacky over the head with those with those bones. So I think part of the issue is

925
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:56,600
to what level are biode maintain to secure? Now, you mentioned 23 and me and there are certain

926
01:27:56,600 --> 01:28:01,320
surf, surf guards in place that are not all together fails safe, something like Gina, the genetic

927
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:10,040
information, not discrimination act. I think it's important. But what you have to then consider in a

928
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:16,440
broader context is something we began speaking about over an hour ago, which is, well, under what

929
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:22,440
set of laws and governances? Yeah, Gina may be applicable here in the United States, but what if the

930
01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:30,360
provenance of the custodianship of that data is extra national? Do US laws comport? Are they

931
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:36,920
are they sustainable? Or are they not? And what is the basis of ownership in terms of intellectual

932
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:43,080
property that would then allow even under international law to proprietary use of that information

933
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:49,480
by whoever is going to be, again, the custodial of provincial ownership? And so as a consequence,

934
01:28:49,480 --> 01:28:53,960
there are a whole bunch of socio-economic and commercial factors that need to be figured into this

935
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:59,160
quasi-calculus to be able to determine the relative property and safety of these data,

936
01:28:59,880 --> 01:29:05,400
not least of which. So what kind of data are we talking about here? In my area, in sort of the

937
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:13,160
neurocognitive sciences, there's really nothing that is mimetic for Gina. Back in 2012,

938
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:17,720
a very, very astute law student at that time now in attorney named Stephanie Costioc.

939
01:29:18,440 --> 01:29:26,120
Road of paper titled, after Gina, Nina, the need for a neurological information on discrimination act.

940
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:30,120
I've said this before, I'll say it again, unapologetically. I wish I'd written that paper. It was one of

941
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:36,040
the best papers I've ever written. It was narrow in its focus, but intentionally and purposely

942
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:43,000
with regard to occupational discrimination. In primarily the workplace, inclusive of things like

943
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:47,720
the provision of insurance based upon what may be neurological information suggestive of

944
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:53,160
a longstanding neurological predisposition or pre-existing condition. Is this individual insurable?

945
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:57,160
They workable. Does this individual have particular neurological traits and characteristics

946
01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:01,960
that might render them more prone to injury on the job? We don't want to pay workers,

947
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:06,360
comp, et cetera, et cetera. This individual has a set of neurocognitive skills,

948
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:11,480
capabilities, knowledge acquisition traits that would render them either favorably disposed

949
01:30:11,480 --> 01:30:16,120
or not disposed for this particular job. And we do that all the time. I mean, let's face it.

950
01:30:16,120 --> 01:30:21,160
You and I went through the Nami Wemi down there with Fritz Copy. It was nothing that wasn't probed

951
01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:27,160
and that's face it. If the length from your butt to your knee wasn't right, you weren't

952
01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:32,280
getting a ejection seat and you had to apply for a waiver. So the whole idea of exclusion

953
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:39,560
not qualified in Q, whether it's NPQ, not physically qualified or in CQ, not cognitively

954
01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:44,600
call-qualified, is not anathema to many of the systems that we engage in, inclusive of things like

955
01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:50,600
university and college admissions. So I mean, I think that those barriers, so to speak,

956
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:57,960
are there whether they're barrier exams, an M-Cat and LSAT, the SATs, whatever, whether those

957
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:03,800
are asvabs, those are induction examinations of the physical and your cognitive type.

958
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:08,360
I mean, you remember going through flight school with a whole bunch of stuff you had to do

959
01:31:08,360 --> 01:31:14,520
and if you didn't do it and if you weren't getting ups on every flight, you're going to be a

960
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:19,800
black shoe pretty quick. And there too, I mean, it's not a question of saying, well, you know,

961
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:25,560
AVA just represent the ideal apical community. I just want to point out that black shoes are

962
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:32,600
people too. Okay. I understand. I'm for the non-navel person. I'm for the non-navel person.

963
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:38,040
We're referring to certain sports. I have a friend who and I shouldn't even say it. We'll

964
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:43,480
say it offline. But yeah, I mean, you know, let's face, we all start out in black shoes, right? So

965
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:48,920
the other issue is, I mean, you know, as well as I have there are specialty areas within,

966
01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:53,720
within every area of military operations across Marine Corps, MOS, various army,

967
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:58,600
Air Force, Space Force, Billets, Coast Guard, National Guard. And within the Navy, I mean,

968
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:02,920
there are certain, I'm like going to say, rarefied elites, but even among what might be

969
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:08,120
though not those groups. For example, you take a look at seals, special operations types,

970
01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:15,400
sub-es, aviation types. And I'm not minimizing surface warfare at all. But I mean, it takes a lot

971
01:32:15,400 --> 01:32:22,200
to get to get sea wings. And every billet has its particular area of specialization engaged with

972
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:27,880
that require a profound skill set. Knowledge set. You got to stay current. And everybody's looking

973
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:32,360
to promote. And let's face it. And everybody's jacket. You have to have those particular set of

974
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:37,800
skills that you've acquired and checks in the block in your jacket, right? Sure. But what if we could

975
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:43,720
identify those individuals who have certain predispositional traits, character risks, and capabilities,

976
01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:49,000
and segue them into various communities where those assets, as well as some of those

977
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:56,760
absences play favorably to their relative verticality of promotion and success. Not to mention their

978
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:00,760
health, operational performance capability, and they're enablement to do those jobs.

979
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:07,000
So we refer to as the hope acronym, Health, H, operational protection, OP, and enablement to do the

980
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:13,800
job of your billet in an E. Hope. So we see great neural cognitive hope in being able to engage

981
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:20,200
these assessment and even interventional methods in those ways. So I think that there's something

982
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:26,680
there there and what that then means. But there's also the question of who gets the goodies,

983
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:36,200
who doesn't, what are the metrics, methods, and machinations for deciding who gets the goodies

984
01:33:36,200 --> 01:33:41,000
and who doesn't? And what happens when some individuals get the goodies and some individuals don't,

985
01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:45,560
and what happens when those individuals who get the goodies and they can't do that job anymore.

986
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:52,120
So there's a lot of things going on here, point number one. Point number two as regards these data,

987
01:33:53,080 --> 01:33:57,240
very often the provision of who gets the goodies and that decision is based upon the data.

988
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:02,440
Well, what else are you going to do with those data? What are you going to use those data for?

989
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:07,560
One of our big concerns is that those data can be used in ways that are both

990
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:11,640
peccunarily problematic as well as biosecurity problematic. Let me explain.

991
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:17,240
If in fact, I have neural, and let's just look at my area of specialization, my sandbox,

992
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:21,880
because I can speak with at least experience if not expertise. But take a look at your neural

993
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:25,400
data. There's a whole bunch of neurodata there. I mean, some of it is very functional,

994
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:29,880
in terms of neurological functions, but others tend to have a little bit more expansive capability.

995
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:33,960
Now, your cognitions, your emotions, your behaviors, it has, if you will sort of psychodata

996
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:39,400
implications as well as social data implications, the way you act, the way you may feel,

997
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:45,960
the broad listing and rostromal of rostromal of your decisions and what that means and

998
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:50,520
various situations, all of these things are accessible and retrievable by the way,

999
01:34:50,520 --> 01:34:54,920
utilizing current methods of big data. And we can do these in ways that are both

1000
01:34:54,920 --> 01:35:00,280
a non-amisable as well as non-amount non-amisable that are directly referential

1001
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:04,280
than to you. I mean, if I'm going to use this in ways, they're going to be precise and

1002
01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:08,600
personalized. I have to deenonymize these data and make them referential to you in some way.

1003
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:14,040
And there are ways to do that, even with relative security utilizing some of these big data

1004
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:20,200
engines, the one that comes to mind is a DARPA-based system called Atra that was actually

1005
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:24,760
then taken over by a crate of biophocs at Georgetown at the Cybersmart Center, which is now called

1006
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:30,760
Aves Terra, that that system is called Aves Terra. And it's a very sophisticated, big data system

1007
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:35,080
that is essentially a black box data, and no, there's sort of no human contact that maintains

1008
01:35:35,080 --> 01:35:43,400
that level of anonymization until deenonymization is required or necessitated. But even there,

1009
01:35:43,480 --> 01:35:50,280
the flipage of that proverbial switch, deenonymize, personalized, identification aspects,

1010
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:57,800
who's flipping that switch. Point number one, the issue reliant upon that is what data do I have

1011
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:03,240
of you and what can I do with those data? Well, one thing I could do with those data is to create

1012
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:08,280
particular narratives, endocrates to establish particular dispositions, predispositions, and biases,

1013
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:15,240
in favor or not in favor of you, or the way you are regarded and treated, in and across a range

1014
01:36:15,240 --> 01:36:22,520
of dimensions and domains within whatever is going to be your daily milieu, work home, out on the street,

1015
01:36:22,520 --> 01:36:30,600
law enforcement, military job, whatever. Okay. The other issue is, I can manipulate those data.

1016
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:38,040
And if I manipulate those data to the extent of relative minutia, which is certainly

1017
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:44,120
capable, in other words, not just your data, but your longitudinal data. I mean, literally,

1018
01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:49,080
from the time that they held you upside down and slapped you on the butt. But more than that,

1019
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:57,000
I can get into your familial database. There's now an evidentiary record of the reality

1020
01:36:57,640 --> 01:37:03,640
of whatever that data depicts. So if I want to demonstrate that there is a Florida risk of

1021
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:09,720
profound psychiatric illness in your family, I could do that. If I want to put into your

1022
01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:14,760
particular record of there had been evidences of transgressions of reality that might be indicative

1023
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:21,400
of you're slipping into periodic psychosis, I could do that. So what you're going to come back and say,

1024
01:37:21,400 --> 01:37:24,920
is no, no, no, that didn't happen. That's not real. But wait a minute. Now we're dealing with the fact

1025
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:30,040
that I'm calling you psychotic, so that's axiomatic to the, you see the problem. And not only

1026
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:38,120
are you saying, no, it isn't. I have evidentiary data that demonstrates that that is so fake data.

1027
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:45,080
It's it's like deep faking, but deep faking on a very, very different level. And I can change

1028
01:37:45,080 --> 01:37:48,840
those data on a variety of scales, literally from the sub-cellular all the way to the social,

1029
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:55,480
from the individual to the international, from the personal to the political. I can put on your

1030
01:37:55,480 --> 01:37:59,880
record that you've done certain things. And it's there. And you may not even know it.

1031
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:06,440
Could affect your security clarinters, could affect what you treated by law, could affect the way

1032
01:38:06,440 --> 01:38:12,280
you're able to move internationally, levels of surveillance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

1033
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:18,360
All right, if there's going to step further, we'll want to step further. If I haven't of data

1034
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:23,560
about the structure and function that makes you you, that's a target rich environment.

1035
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:29,480
Now I can use those data to develop if you will personalized precision pathologies.

1036
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:35,880
Crowded room, I know exactly what's going to hit your phenotype identically and stereo

1037
01:38:35,880 --> 01:38:43,080
specifically. No one else is going to get affected. Why? Because I have your recipe for your secret

1038
01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:49,960
sauce that indicates to me your vulnerabilities. With a very, very defined set of ranges and parameters,

1039
01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:54,760
that essentially renders those things not only unperceptible, but not effective to anyone else,

1040
01:38:54,760 --> 01:39:00,280
but only you. I can do that. It seems like in an age of social media and, you know,

1041
01:39:00,280 --> 01:39:05,960
punch mentioned 23 and me, it seems like a lot of this stuff has relatively volunteered without

1042
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:10,760
that structure. I mean, that's the, that's because value is suited. I mean, you know,

1043
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:16,760
there was a great, I mean, I don't know how many of you listeners are you guys like South Park,

1044
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:21,960
but there was a great South Park a few years back where the kids didn't read the instructions

1045
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:25,880
on something that came from Apple and next thing you know, they were forced into being the human

1046
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:30,600
center to feed. Remember that? Yes. I mean, let's face it. I mean, one of the biggest lies that

1047
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:36,760
everybody tells everybody else is, yeah, I read the small print. Now you know, you may have,

1048
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:41,720
and even if you did read it, did you read it in terms of its implications and not just its

1049
01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:47,320
expectations and the short answer that question is usually no, didn't get it. And so I think,

1050
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:51,560
again, it goes back to a point that we made earlier that if we're going to build and create

1051
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:57,400
these technologies and make them relatively proliferant, if not ubiquitous, we have an equivalent

1052
01:39:57,400 --> 01:40:03,320
responsibility to bring the polis up to speed in what they need to know about these technologies and

1053
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:10,600
how to use them. Again, it goes back to the logos with the technique. It's terrifying.

1054
01:40:12,600 --> 01:40:16,920
I mean, really is, what's terrifying? It's interesting when you say words like technique and you

1055
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:20,440
go to these Greek root words, you know, it seems like these things have always been in existence.

1056
01:40:20,440 --> 01:40:25,480
They're just manifesting themselves in different ways. Let me think part of it is, too, yeah.

1057
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:32,840
This is an Islam. I mean, it's not. I mean, America has manifested a wonderful culture across

1058
01:40:32,920 --> 01:40:38,360
a very, very large geography for the majority of our cultural time, even into 20th century. We've

1059
01:40:38,360 --> 01:40:43,880
been unilingual. I mean, early on, or if you've been in the nation of immigrants who retained

1060
01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:52,200
some of their cultural identities, inclusive of a multilinguality, but over the years, that's been

1061
01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:57,080
diffused a bit, and although now one might argue that we're becoming, once again, multilingual,

1062
01:40:57,160 --> 01:41:03,240
if not essentially polyglot in some ways, I think that historically what you found is that

1063
01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:08,520
there have been certain errors in translation, and the errors in translation are not necessarily

1064
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:13,560
intentional errors, but their errors of colloquialism. So it terms like technology,

1065
01:41:14,360 --> 01:41:20,680
have become very colloquialized, but taking the word for what it is, essentially breaking it down,

1066
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:26,840
I think re-imbeues the meaning as to what that probably was all about. And if that wasn't the

1067
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:30,280
original attention, I think it certainly should be the new intention, given what it is

1068
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:39,880
for capable of doing and what we should do about the things we do. Do you this has been fascinating?

1069
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:46,680
Yeah, my head is a bit of fire hose. I think I wasn't expecting to fire hose today,

1070
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:51,000
like this has been pretty amazing. A couple of questions for you, our topics, maybe.

1071
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:59,000
Let's see, culture. If we want to attack culture of another organization or individual,

1072
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:02,200
what does that look like? What does that mean? Is there anything that we can

1073
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:08,280
talk into? Wow. I think that one good place to start that we've

1074
01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:12,280
over-applicated in our work is to appreciate culture, and it's literal sense. I mean, you think

1075
01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:15,880
of culture like in a patriotic, right? I said, well, I want to culture something, like a

1076
01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:24,360
grow fungus bacteria, right? So what is culture? It's both a medium for expression,

1077
01:42:25,160 --> 01:42:30,840
and it provides relative attractors and constraints for growth, right? And the way that growth

1078
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:36,120
is expressed outwardly. Okay? So I think if we think of human culture in the same way,

1079
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:41,720
I think we're in a pretty good shape. So what are, what is the medium there? And in looking at

1080
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:45,560
that, now you have to look at things that are multidimensional. You have to take a look at history,

1081
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:51,560
but not just history, history, in other words, the way that history is incorporated into

1082
01:42:52,360 --> 01:43:01,320
psychological, social, philosophical narratives. So the stories that history has generated,

1083
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:07,960
in which case that history is not always accurate for the actual historical events,

1084
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:13,000
but a reflective of the interpretive dynamics and meanings that are extracted from that

1085
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:18,200
as a consequence of those events. So history and history, I think, are critical.

1086
01:43:19,160 --> 01:43:23,560
But the same token, history and history, history gives rise to an understanding of needs,

1087
01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:30,280
needs by virtue of what things are in surplus, what things are relative deficit,

1088
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:36,520
what are the behaviors and what are the sets of emotions that drive reaction to surplus deficit,

1089
01:43:37,480 --> 01:43:43,160
what things are then viewed as positive or negative, what things are viewed as threats,

1090
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:47,560
and where particular domains of individual and collective dread lie.

1091
01:43:48,440 --> 01:43:52,920
So here too, we're looking at values of values, disease, or rata, and values negativity.

1092
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:56,200
What things do we like, what things do we don't? What brings us pleasure, what brings us

1093
01:43:56,200 --> 01:44:00,600
pain, what do we value, what do we want to hang on to? And very often those two things together,

1094
01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:06,520
history and values are important in determining key constructs of the operational function of

1095
01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:13,560
a culture, in other words, their philosophy. And philosophy has four very important domains.

1096
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:21,800
What is the underlying metaphysics? Some cultural philosophies are a little more spiritual than others,

1097
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:28,920
and may even be somewhat more supernatural. I mean, let's face it, much of Judeo-Christian

1098
01:44:29,080 --> 01:44:36,200
and where the Abrahamic religious cultures is, Lam, Christianity, Judaism, have a very strongly

1099
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:42,280
supernatural component to them, which is not necessarily intrinsic to other cultures.

1100
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:48,200
They form more naturalistic and their orientation, even religiously, Buddhism, Shinto,

1101
01:44:48,920 --> 01:44:55,320
and although there may be gods, so to speak, very often those gods manifest by controlled

1102
01:44:55,320 --> 01:45:02,360
natural world, which is accessible to us. So much of that metaphysics of a cultural slasph,

1103
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:08,680
feeds into its epistemology. What do they know and how do they know it? That too is based upon

1104
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:15,160
their history. So historically, how have they used various tools, whether those tools are observation,

1105
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:20,040
or whether literally tools of artifact and implementation to be able to know what it is they know,

1106
01:45:20,040 --> 01:45:26,840
acquire that knowledge, then how are they going to use those values, those needs, that knowledge,

1107
01:45:26,840 --> 01:45:33,560
and those tools within the anthropological reality of that society. In other words, that collective.

1108
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:39,160
So the third dimension of their philosophies, the anthropological domain. What is it that they do?

1109
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:45,240
As people individually and collectively and how do they define what they are, who they are,

1110
01:45:45,240 --> 01:45:50,920
and what they do. Now we begin to get into certain things such as geographic lookouts.

1111
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:57,000
What are the ecological capabilities in efficiencies and adequacies? What are the dynamic

1112
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:02,120
interactions between the human components of that ecology and its very environmental components?

1113
01:46:02,120 --> 01:46:07,000
In terms of modification of the environment, the modification of the human culture, society,

1114
01:46:07,000 --> 01:46:14,440
activities, person. And then of course, there's the intra-anthropologic. And if you take a look at that,

1115
01:46:14,440 --> 01:46:21,960
I mean, we realize that human interactions are based upon both cooperation as well as competition.

1116
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:28,360
And much of our cooperation is in a competitive spirit. It's just a question of defining who

1117
01:46:28,360 --> 01:46:36,280
we're competing against. Definable in groups can range from individual all the way to, you know,

1118
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:43,080
large scale, social collectives. But in groups can also be in groups in terms of kind,

1119
01:46:44,040 --> 01:46:50,360
like kind. And as you know, throughout our history, we were very quick to parameterize what is a

1120
01:46:50,360 --> 01:46:57,240
human kind versus a non-human kind. Our current understanding of neuroscience and biology has

1121
01:46:57,240 --> 01:47:02,600
changed that a little bit. Now it's a question more of type or extent versus kind,

1122
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:09,160
what kind of creatures, for example, maintain consciousness, mind, and that may even extend to machines.

1123
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:19,800
But still the idea of who is us? That's the basis of cooperation. Not us is at least the basis

1124
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:25,960
for competition and in some cases conflict. So what you see is the dynamic interaction between

1125
01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:33,400
cooperation, cooperation with competition and cooperation, competition and conflict. It becomes

1126
01:47:33,400 --> 01:47:38,600
something of a three-body's approach. And that's a problem. Because realistically, they're always

1127
01:47:38,680 --> 01:47:44,120
sort of bubbling force to some level of primacy. Where does the cooperation stop and the competition

1128
01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:50,600
begin? Even within a particular group, what are the levels of competition and how does that competition

1129
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:57,000
in some ways bond cooperation or vice versa? And then when conflict occurs, will then how is

1130
01:47:57,000 --> 01:48:03,240
conflict going to be defined in terms of where the boundaries of cooperation lie? And now we're

1131
01:48:03,320 --> 01:48:09,880
talking about clearly the identification of what those groups of humans define to be relative goods.

1132
01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:15,320
And as soon as you start talking about defining the good versus the not good, the rights and the

1133
01:48:15,320 --> 01:48:21,880
wrongs, now you're in the fourth domain of philosophy which is ethics. And clearly ethics can differ

1134
01:48:22,520 --> 01:48:30,200
intra and interculturally as well. And these they need to be appreciated if not responded and prepared for

1135
01:48:30,360 --> 01:48:34,440
because those definitions of good establish those things that are worth defending.

1136
01:48:35,400 --> 01:48:41,640
Either in a reactive or a proactive way and how you defend against them is also based upon your

1137
01:48:41,640 --> 01:48:46,840
underlying ethics as to what you consider to be valuable. And what particular actions you're

1138
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:52,040
willing to take to maintain those things you hold to be near and dear, valuable to your kin and

1139
01:48:52,040 --> 01:49:01,720
kids. So culture clearly plays I think an important point in the 21st century global shift

1140
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:10,760
and our group has argued that it is I think indefensible in the current international

1141
01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:16,520
environment given the rise of cultures that here to four were somewhat subordinated cultures

1142
01:49:17,480 --> 01:49:25,720
that we do not develop a far more cosmopolitanly cultural lens, inclusive of cosmopolitanly

1143
01:49:25,720 --> 01:49:33,960
capable ethics philosophies, policies and laws that are then usable from that broad palette into

1144
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:39,720
a far more specific set of sub-pallets than involve given collectives. In other words, a working

1145
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:45,160
with b, b working with c rather than a, b, c all the way to z working together. The more pieces

1146
01:49:45,160 --> 01:49:50,680
you put in the more complicated those dynamics of interaction by virtue of philosophy ethics policies

1147
01:49:50,680 --> 01:49:55,880
and governance is need to be. It seems to me that there's a real lack in the study or interest in

1148
01:49:55,880 --> 01:50:02,520
those things that you just talked about whereas when you look at when you subtract, say Ivili

1149
01:50:02,520 --> 01:50:07,160
egs and small liberal arts colleges and you look at universities, things that you're talking about

1150
01:50:07,160 --> 01:50:14,200
are very rarely studied, you know, the philosophy that kind of thing. I don't know if they're

1151
01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:19,080
rarely studied but I think what has happened is as a consequence of the progression of STEM and

1152
01:50:19,880 --> 01:50:27,000
what is is harked as the importance if not necessity of STEM or science technology ethics and maths.

1153
01:50:28,440 --> 01:50:38,200
I think there's been an implicit if not expressed divorce from the humanities and social sciences.

1154
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:43,400
I mean we forget that the social sciences are our sciences and they play a role in that science

1155
01:50:43,800 --> 01:50:51,720
anthropology, sociology, political science, certainly play a role but the tools of the social

1156
01:50:51,720 --> 01:50:57,560
sciences with regard to being able to exercise certain social effects very often include things like

1157
01:50:57,560 --> 01:51:04,120
literature and media certainly are exercise through things like policy and law and even in literature

1158
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:10,120
media which you then talk about is the arts and clearly axiomatic across all of those is the need

1159
01:51:10,520 --> 01:51:15,400
to then educate the next generation in those ways and it capableize that generation to deal with

1160
01:51:15,400 --> 01:51:19,880
there's going to be those opportunities and challenges so education represents the key you don't get

1161
01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:27,560
STEM without education and very often education can be seen as both a science science a cognitive

1162
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:32,600
science as well as a social science because there is the sociology and anthropology of education

1163
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:39,640
as well as underlifle a soffical basis. We've argued for in our writing over the past 15 years

1164
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:50,040
is a paradigm we refer to as in steps integrated science technology ethics and policy studies

1165
01:51:51,080 --> 01:51:57,320
why because by engaging ethics it becomes important to then understand those multi-dimensionalities

1166
01:51:57,320 --> 01:52:03,480
of philosophy of ethics that ethics are apart and the words taking ethics is a standalone

1167
01:52:04,280 --> 01:52:11,720
instead of taking the ice cream without the cone or without the the bowl. You can understand it

1168
01:52:11,720 --> 01:52:15,800
but what are you going to put it in? I mean basically how are you going to eat it and if you eat

1169
01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:19,640
it it's going to be messy and it's not going to work. So you have to sort of situate that within

1170
01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:26,840
the bowl or the cup so to speak and that cup that bowl that cone is going to be the anthropological

1171
01:52:26,840 --> 01:52:32,120
domain the epistemological domain that are very very important perhaps not so much the metaphysical

1172
01:52:32,120 --> 01:52:35,800
but certainly the epistemological and anthropological domain what do we know and how do we know it

1173
01:52:36,600 --> 01:52:41,560
and then how we're putting it to use in the human enterprise that represents this our culture

1174
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:47,640
interactive with itself interactive with others but any ethical analysis must begin in

1175
01:52:47,640 --> 01:52:51,960
proceed from fact which gets back to that epistemological basis what are we really know and what

1176
01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:56,920
are we not which goes back to the conversation we had earlier in terms of the role of education

1177
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:01,400
not only in what I would call cold education in other words just hard cold education

1178
01:53:01,480 --> 01:53:07,720
get people in school so to speak but also general education more broadly so to keep the

1179
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:13,160
polis a pace with the technology that is available for it so it can use the technology in ways

1180
01:53:13,160 --> 01:53:20,520
that are appropriate to acquire information in right and good ways and right and good is vertical

1181
01:53:21,240 --> 01:53:27,960
as whole whole discourse about fake news etc and it's possible and we spoke earlier about

1182
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:33,080
deep fakes and and what kind of things we can do to create cognitive disruption by changing

1183
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:37,720
an individual sensor and perception and the cognitions and emotions and behaviors are called along with it

1184
01:53:38,520 --> 01:53:43,240
but I think that the in-step approach is important because what it does is it reground science

1185
01:53:43,240 --> 01:53:48,760
technology engineering and mathematics to a human endeavor and therefore becomes important to

1186
01:53:48,760 --> 01:53:54,840
understand the human developers and users of those things in the various context and constructs

1187
01:53:55,640 --> 01:54:01,240
of use that will be employed it's technology it's technology logos where the technique is science

1188
01:54:01,240 --> 01:54:07,800
technology ethics and maths and the logos is the social scientific and humanitarian and humanity's

1189
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:12,760
dimensions that are very important to keep that in focus as human enterprise for human enterprise

1190
01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:18,760
that's what's been lacking that integrated approach that reinforces the social sciences

1191
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:24,680
arts and humanities in those ways as essential to be able to not only understand and intuitive

1192
01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:29,560
but to put into viable and good use science technology engineering and math.

1193
01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:35,880
It's fantastic in-step so wrote that down here. Hey Doc we've had we're taking a plenty of

1194
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:42,280
time today like I said my head is blown it's a fire hose of information we can keep recording here

1195
01:54:42,280 --> 01:54:47,240
if you like just or are you can we can stop recording for a couple of questions to you.

1196
01:54:47,240 --> 01:54:53,880
Sure. Any major threats or concerns to you based off of your work I mean is there anything that

1197
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:58,040
we need to be paying attention to any weak signals that you can share anything like that that

1198
01:54:58,040 --> 01:55:04,760
we can advise people to be you know we got neural link we've got XAA popping up we have all these new

1199
01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:09,160
companies anything anything pop up to mind that says hey this is something we need to be

1200
01:55:09,160 --> 01:55:14,120
concerned about. Neural link troubles may not because of what neural link is but but because of

1201
01:55:14,120 --> 01:55:20,280
what neural link can be used. Okay I mean we see a program that I think in many ways is far more

1202
01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:24,360
advanced and capable than neural link which is the DARPA and three program but obviously that's a

1203
01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:30,760
gate-capped program. That's a DARPA program so the regulatory gatekeeping is a governmental gatekeeping.

1204
01:55:30,760 --> 01:55:35,160
Yeah I mean for some people I mean it's going to start to generate all kinds of conspiratorial

1205
01:55:35,160 --> 01:55:39,800
thought and sort of antithetic postures about well government is an off-limit of my freedom then

1206
01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:44,600
and I mean the bottom line here is that is a governmentally gate-capped program inclusive of

1207
01:55:45,240 --> 01:55:49,640
what comes out of that program as cradies as cooperative research agreements into the commercial

1208
01:55:49,720 --> 01:55:55,080
space and how those things are going to be used. Less so with neural link I mean look Elon Musk is a

1209
01:55:55,080 --> 01:55:58,920
very very bright-calorie guy but at the end of the day what he is more than anything else as an

1210
01:55:58,920 --> 01:56:07,400
entrepreneur and the kind common value for entrepreneurship is is entrepreneurial economics success.

1211
01:56:08,360 --> 01:56:19,880
I have not been impressed with the level of ethical and cultural philosophical dedication

1212
01:56:20,520 --> 01:56:26,760
to the development and potential uses and misuses of neural link that Elon Musk has dedicated

1213
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:33,000
within that commercial enterprise. I've not have not been. I'm not saying that Elon needs to

1214
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:36,440
call me on the phone and go, hey Jim we want you to be our ethicist that's not what I'm saying.

1215
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:42,680
We can make that happen. Well you're performatively I mean they're great but the issue is like anything else

1216
01:56:43,400 --> 01:56:47,320
you know if they pay you to provide advice the other the question is whether or not they're going to

1217
01:56:47,320 --> 01:56:55,560
take it and so I think the advice that I would give to a neural link whether it's Elon Musk's

1218
01:56:55,560 --> 01:57:01,880
neural link or any other of those what may be soon to be released very very capable very sophisticated

1219
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:09,000
and very powerful either director indirect a consumer neuroscience and technological developments is

1220
01:57:09,800 --> 01:57:15,320
be cautious of of how these things are going to be distributed for a couple of different reasons.

1221
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:23,000
If you're not comfortable with the way research is done somewhere else and that research can then

1222
01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:28,440
lead to developments that are highly usable will you be comfortable with the widget to deliverable

1223
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:32,040
the product even though you may not be comfortable with the research and what you're going to do about it.

1224
01:57:34,040 --> 01:57:40,520
Or if in fact that product then becomes viable or that service then becomes viable somewhere else

1225
01:57:41,480 --> 01:57:46,840
but is not viable and available here wherever here may be what are you going to do about that medical

1226
01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:50,920
tourism market and what are you going to do about quality control and what are you going to do about

1227
01:57:50,920 --> 01:57:57,240
bio security if you're putting instrumentation and individuals heads are you completely

1228
01:57:57,240 --> 01:58:05,000
certain as to what that instrumentation is consists of its components and what it could do

1229
01:58:05,800 --> 01:58:11,800
and what systems are yoked to that instrumentation. So it's a level of quality control

1230
01:58:11,800 --> 01:58:17,080
quality assurance where quality represents a much much broader rubric inclusive of bio

1231
01:58:17,080 --> 01:58:24,680
security by design and implementation that's my concern about neural link and related technologies

1232
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:32,360
and methods and tools that are decemitable on the global stage that may be provisable on the

1233
01:58:32,360 --> 01:58:39,480
global stage but may have very very different parameters for their research development and perhaps

1234
01:58:39,480 --> 01:58:47,720
uses in practice that as a consequence of existing parameters of ethics and law are in

1235
01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:54,200
graze zones if not outside the box for things that might be acceptable if not now in the near future

1236
01:58:54,200 --> 01:58:57,640
and those things need to be addressed now I get it I mean there's something called a calling

1237
01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:03,320
ridge effect on calling ridge dilemma in other words you won't know about things that go wrong

1238
01:59:03,320 --> 01:59:09,000
until you do something and those things go wrong got it understand this is not one of them

1239
01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:15,640
and part of the reason for that is that things have gone wrong in systems like this where they have

1240
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:21,400
been offered to the best buyer and here you're getting diffusion of intent and you're diffusing

1241
01:59:21,400 --> 01:59:26,920
of application and use and as a consequence you're then getting the sort of fractal diffuse effect

1242
01:59:27,640 --> 01:59:32,920
which strays from what may be the ethical property of its intentional design that's not new

1243
01:59:32,920 --> 01:59:38,200
we've seen that before the question is can we use analogical reasoning to be able to substantiate

1244
01:59:38,200 --> 01:59:42,440
that we may be in a similar boat here and we need to be prepared for it and arguably I would say the

1245
01:59:43,320 --> 01:59:49,880
answer is yes how much of it is cat out of the bag I mean the cats out of the bag is not going back in a bit

1246
01:59:50,520 --> 01:59:54,920
I mean I think some of it is in terms of the actual technology the technology is out of the bag

1247
01:59:54,920 --> 02:00:00,840
and the uptake to use the production and the dissemination provision of that technology is still somewhat

1248
02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:06,040
constrained so I think part of the cats out of the bag but the cats not completely out of the bag

1249
02:00:06,040 --> 02:00:10,120
is still like two hind legs and a tail in the bag and that may be able to tighten the center of the

1250
02:00:10,120 --> 02:00:15,000
bag enough to be able to at least control the kitty so that if you can't control the cat at least you can

1251
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:21,320
put on slipcubbers. I forget if it was on our show with us punishment be helped me out but Dave

1252
02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:27,400
snowed and of can Evans had something along the lines of insisting that software engineers or

1253
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:30,520
people that were creating a eye that they would have ethics like some kind of training for

1254
02:00:31,240 --> 02:00:38,440
for ethics before for the device systems that would have tremendous ethical impact on a culture

1255
02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:47,240
individuals. You know I think that ethics gets a lot of lip service but doesn't get a lot of

1256
02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:54,840
engagement. And the other thing is I've said this in my lectures ethics has a big mouth but no

1257
02:00:54,840 --> 02:01:00,280
teeth. I mean yeah you can scream in the electrical stuff all day long and yeah you can deafen people

1258
02:01:00,280 --> 02:01:06,040
and that may be deafening and that by itself may be uncomfortable enough. But realistically ethics

1259
02:01:06,120 --> 02:01:10,760
busts very often along those lines. It's sort of like gumming somebody to death. You got to really

1260
02:01:10,760 --> 02:01:16,200
got to hammer away at it and the truth of it is that the ethics can shift as a consequence of the

1261
02:01:16,200 --> 02:01:21,720
culture in which that ethics is being enacted. Case in point. CRISPR baby, the ethical issues

1262
02:01:21,720 --> 02:01:25,080
were well known. Let's face it absolutely nothing happens to the people who are public without

1263
02:01:25,080 --> 02:01:28,760
the government knowing about it. Particularly if it involves a commercial and research enterprise.

1264
02:01:29,320 --> 02:01:33,000
It was a beta test if anything. Let's just see what the international community has to say about

1265
02:01:33,080 --> 02:01:38,920
CRISPR babies. Oh yeah they didn't take to a real well. Rists lap. Yeah but how long did the

1266
02:01:38,920 --> 02:01:43,560
Rists lap last? And the Rists lap was an ethical Rists lap. There's a lot of ethical noise making

1267
02:01:43,560 --> 02:01:49,320
and drum beating but it had to be something quasi legal or at least a look legal from the outside.

1268
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:56,360
Policies and laws have teeth. But you have to be careful because they can take a bite out of productivity

1269
02:01:56,360 --> 02:02:00,760
development and positive effects just as much as they can take a bite out of those things that

1270
02:02:00,840 --> 02:02:08,920
come up and bite into the fanny. So again well informed ethics ethics that are based upon

1271
02:02:08,920 --> 02:02:14,040
science and reflect the science ethics that guide the science and both science and ethics information

1272
02:02:14,440 --> 02:02:20,600
that are important to then developing and guiding policy and law represents what we consider to be

1273
02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:29,640
the viable or the essential triune. All within the same you can't take one out

1274
02:02:30,760 --> 02:02:35,480
and be able to manifest the same level of complete triangulation and effectiveness because you

1275
02:02:35,480 --> 02:02:46,920
lose something when you do. Dr. Ginnarapapir with you but is there anything you're working on?

1276
02:02:48,680 --> 02:02:55,480
What's next for you? What's your life like? What are you on next? What's coming up? Any new

1277
02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:58,920
books anything like that? Yeah I mean it's not a day that I go to work whether it's a

1278
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:01,960
moment or actually the office that I'm not having a good time so it's long as it's still fun.

1279
02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:05,880
I'm going to keep doing it. I've been doing it for 42 years so that's kind of fun.

1280
02:03:07,000 --> 02:03:13,400
I'm still a Georgetown so I'm the Pelagrino Center professor of neurology and biochemistry

1281
02:03:13,400 --> 02:03:17,560
and ethics and also there are senior scholar in the Pelagrino Center for ethics. I run their

1282
02:03:17,560 --> 02:03:22,920
neuroethics program. We have a subprogram in military medical ethics that we do in

1283
02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:28,200
can joint with the defense medical ethics center at uniform services university of health sciences

1284
02:03:28,200 --> 02:03:33,400
and Walter Reed that's an all DOD ethics across all medical communities within the defense health

1285
02:03:33,400 --> 02:03:39,000
administration of the DHA and that's established by a Department of Defense instruction back in 2019.

1286
02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:44,040
That's great fun because I work with absolutely stellar and brilliant colleagues at the

1287
02:03:44,040 --> 02:03:49,640
DMACC and within the DOD. Continuing to do my work with the Strategic Multi-Layer Assessment Branch

1288
02:03:49,640 --> 02:03:54,920
joint staff Pentagon doing that for the past decade plus against a very very exciting project.

1289
02:03:54,920 --> 02:04:00,920
Right now we're working on various domains of disruption and deterrence and my particular area

1290
02:04:00,920 --> 02:04:06,440
of the sandbox is how chem bio-rad and nukes have been used for and can be used for deterrence

1291
02:04:06,440 --> 02:04:12,200
both with regard to proactively in terms of optimizing capability of one's own side forces as well

1292
02:04:12,200 --> 02:04:17,160
as disruptive and destructive capabilities and deterrence against others. So it's an ongoing project.

1293
02:04:17,640 --> 02:04:23,000
And then just just continuing some of our international work, I have some esteemed colleagues

1294
02:04:23,000 --> 02:04:27,000
that I work with at the University of Applied Sciences and Cold Book Germany, primarily in the

1295
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:33,400
domains of health promotion as relates to science and technology and health promotions internationally

1296
02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:38,280
and globally. And I'm very, very proud to continue to be a senior stockdale fellow with the United

1297
02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:44,280
States Naval Academy for science, technology, ethics and security. So yeah, that's what I'm doing.

1298
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:49,960
I got a couple of books coming out in late 23, early 24, one to be published by MIT Press with

1299
02:04:49,960 --> 02:04:57,240
my longstanding colleague John Schuch and one to be published by Springer with colleagues Schuch and

1300
02:04:57,240 --> 02:05:02,360
Dr. Roland Benedictor of the Yurac Center in Boats and Bullsano, both as I'm looking at neuroscience

1301
02:05:02,360 --> 02:05:08,520
and technology in culture and the book with John Schuch really examined what we consider to be the

1302
02:05:08,600 --> 02:05:15,240
development and viability of neuroethics 2.0. In other words, next generation ethics to be very

1303
02:05:15,240 --> 02:05:19,720
brave so as to address these bold advances in neuroscience and tech on the global stage.

1304
02:05:20,840 --> 02:05:26,680
Fantastic. And then stop recording here. I got one. That's more questions for me. Sure. Yeah.