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Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma bomber, is a conspiracy theorist.

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He believes that a shadowy elite is plotting to establish an all-powerful New World Order,

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a world government that will destroy anyone who disobeys them.

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McVeigh considered the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City to be local New World Order headquarters.

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His bombing was the strategic act of a conspiracy theorist with military training to stop the New World Order.

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Two days ago, the FBI admitted to withholding 3,000 documents relating to the Oklahoma City bombing.

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McVeigh's execution has now been stayed for 30 days.

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Conspiracy theorists believe that these documents might relate to a bizarre neo-Nazi love affair,

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a mysterious German, a white separatist community called Elohim City, and a strip club in Tulsa.

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This conspiracy theory has led many people to believe that the New World Order itself had a hand in the bombing.

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There are two stories of the Oklahoma bomb.

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Both stories seem as convincing and as unbelievable as each other.

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McVeigh really was a creature of his own pop culture.

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Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck are local journalists from Timothy McVeigh's hometown.

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They're the only journalists McVeigh has let into his life for any significant time.

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The story they tell is the story McVeigh wants the world to know.

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He loved shows like Little House on the Prairie because he loved the frontier spirit of that show.

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He loved Sylvester Stallone's soldier movies.

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And he also loved science fiction.

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And a friend of his asked McVeigh,

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how can you justify blowing up a federal building where you're going to have all kinds of secretaries?

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And he cited the movie Star Wars.

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And he said that when the Death Star was blown up, everyone cheered.

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And no one cared about the fact that some of the people who were on the Death Star were probably just secretaries.

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So even secretaries were fair game to McVeigh.

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Timothy McVeigh did not bond with his parents.

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But he did bond with his grandfather, Ed McVeigh.

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And Ed used guns as a tool to teach McVeigh responsibility.

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And later in life, when he saw that the federal government was trying to restrain the Second Amendment or chip away at it,

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McVeigh took that very personally because the only man that he said he ever loved in his life,

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he could say it unabashedly, without reserve, was Edward McVeigh.

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Shortly after his 18th birthday, he came over and I have a favor I want to ask you.

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Will you sign my pistol permit?

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And I remember giving him a little talk.

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And guns have only one purpose and that's to kill.

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But in the end, I did sign the pistol permit.

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I was kind of surprised you did sign it, really.

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Well.

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Now if he'd come over to me, I would have just immediately signed it because I don't know if it happened.

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I think guns are not all bad.

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There is a conspiracy theory at the heart of the American Constitution.

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The Second Amendment, the right to bear arms, is there to protect the people against a government that can become tyrannical.

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McVeigh, like millions of others, felt that the government's clampdown on gun owners was a tyrannical act.

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McVeigh, in immersing himself in the gun show culture, came across the philosophies of the New World Order.

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And that was abhorrent to him, a single government guiding the world.

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He felt that the rights of citizens would be taken away.

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We'd no longer be citizens, but subjects.

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The gun shows are where McVeigh, working under an alias, began to be noticed by his peer group.

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I've heard of Tim Tuttle.

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Tim Tuttle was that.

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There was a real good patriot named Tim Tuttle, who was a highly decorated army guy from the Gulf War, who was a really good patriot.

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So did you meet Tim Tuttle?

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Yes, I did meet Tim Tuttle.

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I didn't know his name was Tim Tuttle or Tim McVeigh.

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He was set up at Tulsa gun shows, under an assumed name.

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And I remember because he always had real short hair and real, real intense eyes, and a real long, narrow nose like yours.

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Nose like yours, yeah.

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It's a good nose, don't get me wrong.

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Better than mine, mine's been broke.

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I run into Tim Tuttle at some of the gun shows.

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Fascinating fellow.

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Fascinating fellow.

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But he tried to sell me a 37-millimeter rocket launcher.

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This is a 20-millimeter shell, okay?

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Now, think about a 37-millimeter shell, man.

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I mean, you get my drill?

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I said, look here, I don't need to kill elephants, man, you know?

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And he said, well, when the black helicopters come to get you, you know, you can put a little warhead on it and take them down.

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I thought that was kind of cute.

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He had a good sense of humor.

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Some conspiracy theorists say that the majority of gun show attendees are actually undercover government agents, either for the FBI or for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the ATF, a gun control agency.

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The deal was, I would go to all these gun shows and flea markets and stuff, and I would deliver at least 10 people that were serious.

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They had a list of people they wanted.

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And Tim Tuttle's name has come up many times with ATF from his gun show stuff because he was talking some wild stuff at the gun shows.

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We were talking once about, you know, Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I said, you know, it's, uh, what comes around, goes around, uh, I can't believe that if they keep doing this terrorism on our people, terrorism's going to happen to them.

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That's what he said to you, or that's what you said to him?

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That's what I said to him.

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He said, probably, probably so.

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In the early 1990s, the U.S. government launched a series of assaults on gun owners.

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In one, at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, an FBI sniper called Lon Horiuchi shot Vicki Weaver as she stood in her cabin doorway holding her baby.

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A day earlier, U.S. Marshals had shot her son, Sammy, in the back as he was running away from an ambush.

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You go, baby killer! Baby killer!

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McVeigh was even angry to the point that at gun shows, he was handing out, uh, little cards with an address where people could find Lon Horiuchi, the, uh, sharpshooter from the FBI at Ruby Ridge.

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So this was something that occupied him for years.

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In February 1993, the ATF raided David Koresh's church at Waco.

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There had been reports that David Koresh was stockpiling weapons.

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This is for the little children, right?

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God knows how it should be.

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Stars and stripes a-flyin' give us justice and liberty for the children's sake.

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You know, you might have to bear a gun one day.

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Timothy McVeigh was horrified by the ATF's assault on the church.

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He considered it a PR stunt designed to deflect the bad publicity the government was getting for the killings of Vicky and Sammy Weaver.

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McVeigh visited Waco during the siege, and he handed out leaflets.

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He was not alone in criticising the ATF's handling of the raid.

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I have great concerns with the initial raid carried out by the ATF.

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Uh, personally would never have approved such a raid.

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To carry it out in that manner was, was outrageous.

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So, to me, it looks like, uh, certain leaders in the ATF decided to make a, a big grandstand.

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This is not on and so well.

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In our youth, this is not on and so well.

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We will not be entering the building.

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On April the 19th, 1993, the FBI decided to end the siege at Waco.

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For the anti-government movement, Bob Ricks became the personification of the New World Order.

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As far as I'm concerned, Ricks is guilty of killing those people in Waco.

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I just hope that his family would go through the same thing, 51 days of hell.

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Just because I was on camera, that's the only reason.

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Uh, that nobody knew me or knew what I stood for.

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But, uh, because I was probably the, the one most, uh, visible to everyone.

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Uh, so that, that's the only reason I incurred their wrath.

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The burning of David Koresh's parishioners, including 23 children,

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was broadcast live on TV.

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McVeigh stood staring at his television set for 10 minutes,

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unable to say a word with tears coming out of his eyes.

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He was fighting the New World Order, and he thought what he did was warfare, guerrilla warfare.

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He thought he was tit for tat.

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A line in the sand had been drawn, and the government had stepped over it,

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and he was ready to strike back in retaliation.

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He said that violence was his last resort.

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But why that building?

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The Alfred P. Moa building in Oklahoma City had long been a target for anti-government terrorists.

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In 1983, two men, James Ellison and Richard Wayne Snell,

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plotted to blow up the Moa building.

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What he actually asked me to do was he asked me to manufacture a rocket launcher

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so that he could position this rocket launcher and, uh, set it off with a timer

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and do damage on the front of the building at night.

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The reason they were blowing up the Oklahoma Federal Building at that time,

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it was a mostly racially mixed federal building in the United States at that time,

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and that's the reason they wanted to take it out.

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They only abandoned their plan when the rocket launcher they'd been testing blew up in their hands.

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They took it as a sign that God didn't want them to go ahead with the plot.

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Many conspiracy theorists believe that Snell's 1983 plot

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is an important clue in the mystery of who really did blow up the Moa building 12 years later.

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But McVeigh's official biographers say there is no mystery.

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He looked in the phone book.

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He noticed that the ATF were in one particular federal office building.

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He went by and scoped out the building,

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and he thought this would make a great target for my bomb.

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He wanted a building that would be photogenic,

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that would provide a photo opportunity for the media,

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once it had been destroyed.

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The official story goes that McVeigh also chose Oklahoma City

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because Bob Ricks was based there.

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He also said that he wanted to kill as many of the ATF officers

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stationed in the Moa building as possible.

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But his plans backfired.

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It turned out that Bob Ricks was based at another building across town.

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Oscar Johnson was the Moa building's elevator service engineer.

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We had six men on the site within five minutes after the bombing

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to help check all the elevators

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and continue to help with the rescue at the time.

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When I was given a copy of the floor plan of the building,

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it showed where all the people were when the bomb blast went off.

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What are the numbers there?

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The number identifies them by person.

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The square boxes are fatalities.

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The notched-out area where the floor collapsed

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is where all the fatalities were.

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There were 19 children in the daycare center.

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There was a daycare inside the building.

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And imagine the callousness of setting off a bomb

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where children are inside.

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It's mind-boggling.

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I do know what probably happened with Tim

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because the Army does teach you

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you're being trained for war.

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And what is a war?

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It's killing other people.

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And they try and eliminate any feeling of guilt.

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This is the mentality he was using.

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I mean, especially, I mean, we cried

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when we heard about collateral damage.

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Kids.

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Terrible.

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This is why I don't go on television very often

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because I get chicken.

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I do.

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McVeigh says he had no idea

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that the daycare center was there.

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He's tried to salvage the situation,

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stating that children are often killed

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in NATO raids in the Balkans and the Middle East.

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But it's clear that the daycare center

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has ruined his political statement.

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In his most recent statements,

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which are so inflammatory

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about killing babies

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and how they just sort of got in the way,

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this collateral damage stuff,

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indicates to me that he's given up any hope

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of becoming a popular mythical hero.

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And he's decided,

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well, I'm going to go down

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with my pals in the movement

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and at least I'll get respect from them.

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He's going to be a martyr to the movement.

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And don't get me wrong,

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I'm sorry the kids got killed there.

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But you know something?

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I never heard any Oklahomans,

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you know, raise hell

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about the federal government

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and what they did to Waco.

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Most Okies have said,

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I'm glad they killed them off.

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They're a bunch of crazy people.

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And Tim McVeigh was a Satan worshiper,

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which he wasn't.

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But almost all the Okies

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were 100% behind that massacre.

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So, hey, you got 108,

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168 people dead.

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Too bad.

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Even though McVeigh wanted to kill

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as many ATF officers as he could,

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their office was nearly empty that morning.

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Do you know how many people

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are supposed to have been

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in that ATF office?

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I'd probably estimate 10 or 12.

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Actually, one of these guys was a DEA.

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This is how the conspiracy theory began.

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Where were the ATF officers that day?

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The militia movement

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has been heavily infiltrated by the ATF.

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Could the Bureau have had

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some forewarning of the bomb?

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And then conspiracy theorists

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began to hear of a strange love affair

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between an Oklahoman society girl

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called Carol Howe

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and the neo-Nazi Dennis Mahan.

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This is the love affair

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at the heart of the conspiracy theory.

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There are a series of strange facts

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that have led conspiracy theorists

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to believe that not only

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did McVeigh act with others,

238
00:15:59,140 --> 00:16:00,200
but that these others

239
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,980
are being protected by a government

240
00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:03,660
with something to hide.

241
00:16:04,820 --> 00:16:06,400
The story begins

242
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,960
with a bizarre neo-Nazi love affair.

243
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,340
Carol Howe

244
00:16:13,340 --> 00:16:14,500
was a debutante

245
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:15,800
with a millionaire father,

246
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,080
but she got in

247
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,180
with a druggie crowd

248
00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:19,620
and she jumped off a roof

249
00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:20,740
and broke her feet.

250
00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:22,620
While she was convalescing,

251
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:23,840
she began to telephone

252
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:24,640
the local

253
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,340
Dial-A-Racist hotline.

254
00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:28,100
The international corporations

255
00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:29,280
and Jews and banks

256
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,680
control America

257
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:31,700
and are out

258
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:32,380
to enslave

259
00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:33,560
and destroy the white race.

260
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,080
I somewhat got hooked on it

261
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,120
and started to call

262
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,280
whenever it would change

263
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,440
to hear and learn

264
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,960
new and interesting things.

265
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,500
Carol fell in love

266
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:45,180
with the voice

267
00:16:45,180 --> 00:16:46,800
as she lay in her sick bed.

268
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:48,120
The voice belonged

269
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,400
to Dennis Mahan.

270
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,420
She contacted me first

271
00:16:51,420 --> 00:16:53,340
and she wanted to help

272
00:16:53,340 --> 00:16:55,100
fight for the white race.

273
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:56,520
And I felt so like,

274
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:56,940
looky here,

275
00:16:57,020 --> 00:16:58,180
here's a young woman,

276
00:16:58,260 --> 00:16:59,000
a beautiful young woman

277
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,160
hobbling around crutches

278
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:01,240
trying to fight for a race.

279
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:01,540
And I just,

280
00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:02,440
my heart went out to her.

281
00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:03,720
This is Carol,

282
00:17:03,820 --> 00:17:04,560
one of the pictures

283
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:05,320
of Carol that I took.

284
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:06,420
And she was

285
00:17:06,420 --> 00:17:07,140
strikingly beautiful,

286
00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:07,740
she was.

287
00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:08,720
And highly intelligent,

288
00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:09,480
super high IQ.

289
00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:10,240
I think she had an IQ

290
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:10,920
of 130,

291
00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:12,180
way up there.

292
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:15,120
Oh yeah,

293
00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:15,760
here's a nice picture

294
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:16,100
of Carol

295
00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:18,440
shooting her AK-47.

296
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:19,660
Within hours

297
00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:20,700
of meeting Carol,

298
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:22,120
Dennis had formulated

299
00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:23,740
some big plans for her.

300
00:17:23,740 --> 00:17:24,960
I was going to get

301
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:25,540
some talk shows

302
00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:26,200
like Oprah

303
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:26,700
and a few others

304
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:27,120
where they could

305
00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:28,320
get her on the air

306
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:29,660
because most of our

307
00:17:29,660 --> 00:17:31,200
women are not

308
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:31,780
very intelligent.

309
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:33,340
And all they can say

310
00:17:33,340 --> 00:17:33,880
is nigger this

311
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:34,460
and nigger that.

312
00:17:35,340 --> 00:17:36,340
Did you fall in love

313
00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:36,620
with her?

314
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:38,140
I tried not to.

315
00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:39,000
I really did.

316
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:39,360
I tried to keep

317
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:40,140
on a professional level

318
00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:41,560
but it was very hard

319
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,320
not to because

320
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,860
I wanted to keep

321
00:17:44,860 --> 00:17:45,340
her healthy.

322
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:46,640
I was adopted

323
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,080
and that's why

324
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:49,560
I guess I've always

325
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:50,180
been looking for

326
00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:50,880
my identity

327
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:51,860
and who I am

328
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:52,520
and where I come

329
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:53,320
from and where

330
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:53,920
am I going.

331
00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:55,060
I got a bit weak.

332
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:56,380
I did fall in love

333
00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:56,540
with her

334
00:17:56,540 --> 00:17:56,920
and I did

335
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,280
have an intimate

336
00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,020
relationship with her

337
00:17:59,020 --> 00:18:00,760
and I finally said

338
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:01,500
just forget about

339
00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:02,120
this whole thing

340
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:02,780
and just get married

341
00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:03,320
and the best thing

342
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:03,500
we can do

343
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:04,080
is have children.

344
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:05,200
Let's have some

345
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:05,900
beautiful white children.

346
00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:06,700
But no,

347
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:07,460
she wanted to get

348
00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:08,180
into the guns

349
00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:08,680
and get into

350
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:09,260
the explosives.

351
00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:10,800
Their love affair

352
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:11,540
flourished.

353
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,320
Carol began recording

354
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:14,200
Dialer racist

355
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,440
messages too.

356
00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:16,640
You better pick up

357
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:17,220
your weapons

358
00:18:17,220 --> 00:18:18,380
and start eliminating

359
00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:19,440
the Jews

360
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,460
that have infested

361
00:18:20,460 --> 00:18:21,140
our government.

362
00:18:21,860 --> 00:18:22,460
I made some

363
00:18:22,460 --> 00:18:23,340
rudimentary explosives

364
00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:23,840
for her

365
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:24,340
and let them

366
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:25,200
out in the woods

367
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,080
and she got off.

368
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:27,340
I mean,

369
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:27,660
she's,

370
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:28,860
I mean,

371
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:29,060
like,

372
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:31,180
I mean,

373
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:31,640
she couldn't make

374
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:32,520
love to be fast enough

375
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,020
and it's just,

376
00:18:36,140 --> 00:18:36,800
actually,

377
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:37,700
she liked the danger

378
00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:39,520
more than sex,

379
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:39,960
I think.

380
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:41,200
Carol broke up

381
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:41,780
with Dennis

382
00:18:41,780 --> 00:18:42,680
after he threatened

383
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:43,420
to kill her.

384
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:44,740
She called the police.

385
00:18:44,860 --> 00:18:45,240
Oh, Jesus.

386
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:46,840
This is some

387
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:47,600
of the terrible things

388
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,820
that people said

389
00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:50,180
about me

390
00:18:50,180 --> 00:18:51,580
Carol said

391
00:18:51,580 --> 00:18:52,260
that I raped her.

392
00:18:52,580 --> 00:18:53,000
That's how

393
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:53,440
the local

394
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,480
ATF heard

395
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:55,020
about her.

396
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:55,800
They asked

397
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:56,260
her to become

398
00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:56,900
an undercover

399
00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:57,660
informant

400
00:18:57,660 --> 00:18:58,300
and spy

401
00:18:58,300 --> 00:18:58,860
on Dennis

402
00:18:58,860 --> 00:18:59,380
for them.

403
00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:00,460
She agreed.

404
00:19:01,180 --> 00:19:01,980
I thought

405
00:19:01,980 --> 00:19:02,480
I was doing

406
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:03,200
a very important

407
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:03,560
thing.

408
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:04,500
I had been

409
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:05,500
so honoured

410
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:06,340
that the ATF

411
00:19:06,340 --> 00:19:06,800
would come

412
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:07,160
to me

413
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:07,760
and ask

414
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:08,420
me to work

415
00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:08,880
for them

416
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:09,780
as an informant.

417
00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:10,840
Dennis took

418
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:11,640
Carol back,

419
00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:12,760
unaware she was

420
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:13,400
now working

421
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,680
for the ATF.

422
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,460
But Dennis

423
00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:16,160
says he knew

424
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:16,920
their relationship

425
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:17,820
wouldn't work.

426
00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:18,660
He says he

427
00:19:18,660 --> 00:19:19,180
wanted to see

428
00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:19,820
her happy.

429
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:20,540
He wanted

430
00:19:20,540 --> 00:19:21,040
her to meet

431
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:21,620
boys.

432
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:22,600
So he took

433
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:23,280
her to a local

434
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:24,040
heavily armed

435
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,000
compound called

436
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:25,820
Elohim City.

437
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:26,800
It's a white

438
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:27,620
separatist community.

439
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:29,160
They've got

440
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:30,340
fundamentalists,

441
00:19:30,460 --> 00:19:30,860
but it's really

442
00:19:30,860 --> 00:19:31,220
nice.

443
00:19:31,460 --> 00:19:32,340
A lot of good

444
00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:32,980
single men out

445
00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:33,200
there.

446
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:34,400
And that was

447
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,040
Elohim City.

448
00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:36,780
But I did tell

449
00:19:36,780 --> 00:19:37,500
those people out

450
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:38,900
there, she really

451
00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:40,060
likes to make

452
00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:40,680
bombs.

453
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:42,620
For conspiracy

454
00:19:42,620 --> 00:19:43,280
theorists,

455
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,360
Elohim City is

456
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:45,080
the linchpin

457
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:45,800
of the story.

458
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:47,100
In the months

459
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:47,560
before the

460
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:48,500
Oklahoma bombing,

461
00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:49,680
Carol filed

462
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:50,400
a series of

463
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:51,260
reports to the

464
00:19:51,260 --> 00:19:52,420
ATF about

465
00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:52,860
the white

466
00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:53,840
separatists at

467
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:54,660
Elohim City.

468
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:56,380
The conspiracy

469
00:19:56,380 --> 00:19:57,220
investigator,

470
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:58,500
J.D. Cash,

471
00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,540
managed to get

472
00:19:59,540 --> 00:20:00,320
copies of them.

473
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:01,780
To give you

474
00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:02,680
an idea of

475
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:03,240
the type of

476
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,100
intelligence that

477
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:04,840
Carol provided,

478
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,380
she advises

479
00:20:06,380 --> 00:20:08,940
that Mahon

480
00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:10,120
has detonated

481
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:11,000
explosives at

482
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:11,680
Elohim City.

483
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:13,360
Elohim City

484
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,160
is preparing

485
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,140
for a war

486
00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:15,720
against the

487
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:16,220
United States

488
00:20:16,220 --> 00:20:16,620
government.

489
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:18,180
They support

490
00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:19,520
violence against

491
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:20,040
the government.

492
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:21,960
Andreas Strasmeier

493
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:22,640
is an illegal

494
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:22,980
alien,

495
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:23,660
is head of

496
00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:24,340
security at

497
00:20:24,340 --> 00:20:24,580
EC.

498
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:26,760
He served in

499
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:27,080
the West

500
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:27,900
German military.

501
00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:29,520
His stated

502
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:30,640
plans are to

503
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:31,720
forcibly act to

504
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:32,460
destroy the

505
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:33,280
United States

506
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:34,600
government with

507
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:35,560
direct actions

508
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:36,060
such as

509
00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:37,080
assassinations,

510
00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:38,020
bombings,

511
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:39,760
mass shootings.

512
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:41,380
Of all those

513
00:20:41,380 --> 00:20:41,840
living at

514
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:42,720
Elohim City,

515
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:43,780
Carol said

516
00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:44,300
the most

517
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:45,380
mysterious was

518
00:20:45,380 --> 00:20:45,980
the German

519
00:20:45,980 --> 00:20:47,620
Andreas Strasmeier.

520
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:48,920
Carol told the

521
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:49,760
ATF that

522
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:50,680
Strasmeier was

523
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:51,500
plotting to blow

524
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:52,500
up a federal

525
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:52,960
building.

526
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:54,420
She advises

527
00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:55,940
that she had

528
00:20:55,940 --> 00:20:56,440
seen

529
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:57,260
Strasmeier

530
00:20:57,260 --> 00:20:57,600
and McVeigh

531
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:58,180
together

532
00:20:58,180 --> 00:20:59,540
at Elohim City.

533
00:20:59,820 --> 00:21:00,760
When I first

534
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:01,500
interviewed her,

535
00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:02,560
she told me that

536
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:03,120
she had seen

537
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:03,640
them together.

538
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:04,540
And the name

539
00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:04,880
was Tim

540
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:05,240
Tuttle.

541
00:21:06,020 --> 00:21:06,980
She'd heard that

542
00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:07,520
name several

543
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,280
times before the

544
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:08,540
bombing.

545
00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:09,940
Elohim City

546
00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:11,100
individuals stated

547
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:11,720
that they have

548
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:12,520
access to

549
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,220
grenades,

550
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:14,200
C4,

551
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,120
plastic explosives,

552
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:16,840
and other

553
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,380
explosives,

554
00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:18,800
and are said to

555
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:19,740
have machine

556
00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:20,240
guns.

557
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:23,940
After all I'd

558
00:21:23,940 --> 00:21:24,500
heard about

559
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:25,320
Elohim City,

560
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,400
I felt a little

561
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:27,640
intimidated as I

562
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,560
drove up into the

563
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:29,620
Ozark Mountains

564
00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:30,740
towards the place.

565
00:21:32,180 --> 00:21:33,340
It was on this

566
00:21:33,340 --> 00:21:34,260
stretch of road

567
00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:34,960
that McVeigh

568
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:35,980
received a speeding

569
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:37,300
ticket in October

570
00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:39,560
1993, just a few

571
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:40,620
miles from Elohim

572
00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:41,060
City.

573
00:21:42,060 --> 00:21:42,960
Could it be true

574
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,040
that the plot to

575
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:44,520
blow up the

576
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:45,400
mower building was

577
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,660
hatched there between

578
00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:47,500
McVeigh and

579
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:48,720
Andreas Strasmeier?

580
00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:51,980
My instructions

581
00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:52,800
were to stay in

582
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:53,640
the car and

583
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:54,500
honk my horn

584
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:55,200
until somebody

585
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,020
came to fetch

586
00:21:56,020 --> 00:21:56,300
me.

587
00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:07,780
I wondered why

588
00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:08,480
I had to sit

589
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:09,400
there and honk.

590
00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:11,580
Had the people

591
00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:12,340
there been told

592
00:22:12,340 --> 00:22:13,140
to stop doing

593
00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:14,100
whatever it was

594
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:14,980
when the honking

595
00:22:14,980 --> 00:22:16,280
journalist arrived?

596
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:18,760
Somebody over

597
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:18,940
here.

598
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:19,900
Hi.

599
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,000
West, we've

600
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:22,420
come to see

601
00:22:22,420 --> 00:22:22,820
the Reverend

602
00:22:22,820 --> 00:22:23,380
Malar.

603
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:26,980
OK, thanks.

604
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:28,820
So after all I'd

605
00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:29,380
heard about

606
00:22:29,380 --> 00:22:30,220
Elohim City,

607
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,220
it was a happy

608
00:22:31,220 --> 00:22:32,080
surprise that

609
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:32,900
they'd organised a

610
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:33,660
performance of

611
00:22:33,660 --> 00:22:34,680
river dance to

612
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,300
welcome me.

613
00:22:35,300 --> 00:23:01,800
it was a busy day

614
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:02,740
at Elohim City.

615
00:23:02,740 --> 00:23:04,140
not only had a

616
00:23:04,140 --> 00:23:05,360
visiting chiropractor

617
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:06,060
called Dr.

618
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:06,940
Buzz come to

619
00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:07,800
give massages,

620
00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:09,060
but a travelling

621
00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:10,100
salesman was here

622
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:10,960
to sell Elohim

623
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:11,740
City soap

624
00:23:11,740 --> 00:23:12,220
powder.

625
00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:13,460
Antibacterial

626
00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:14,060
soap for your

627
00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:14,540
hand, soap

628
00:23:14,540 --> 00:23:15,060
for your sink,

629
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:16,700
shampoo, you

630
00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:16,960
don't need

631
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:17,520
conditioner with

632
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:17,920
this water,

633
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:19,100
just shampoo,

634
00:23:19,420 --> 00:23:19,860
and your bath

635
00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:20,040
bar.

636
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:20,460
This bath

637
00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:21,140
bar lasts up to

638
00:23:21,140 --> 00:23:21,980
about 25 times

639
00:23:21,980 --> 00:23:22,540
longer than the

640
00:23:22,540 --> 00:23:23,120
bar you're using

641
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:23,420
now.

642
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,060
It's been proven

643
00:23:24,060 --> 00:23:24,620
over and over

644
00:23:24,620 --> 00:23:24,900
again.

645
00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:25,900
This is not a

646
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:26,540
game, it's very

647
00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:26,920
serious.

648
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,340
Water is serious

649
00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:28,820
nowadays.

650
00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:29,840
Yes, it is.

651
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:30,460
Well, there's

652
00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:30,960
nothing more

653
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,700
valuable than

654
00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:32,360
good health.

655
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:34,720
These are tense

656
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:35,760
times at Elohim

657
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:36,180
City.

658
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:37,680
The group's leader,

659
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:38,680
Reverend Malar,

660
00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:39,740
has been told that

661
00:23:39,740 --> 00:23:40,940
the ATF have long

662
00:23:40,940 --> 00:23:41,900
been discussing a

663
00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:43,600
Waco-style raid on

664
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,520
these heavily-armed

665
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,700
white separatists.

666
00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:47,440
In fact, a standoff

667
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,560
was recently averted

668
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:49,660
at the last minute.

669
00:23:49,660 --> 00:23:50,860
They came in here,

670
00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:52,320
they had 10 armed

671
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,720
men here, they said

672
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:54,420
they had more in

673
00:23:54,420 --> 00:23:55,100
the bush, and they

674
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:56,640
had an airplane

675
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,120
overhead.

676
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:58,660
I happened to have

677
00:23:58,660 --> 00:24:00,460
been forewarned, and

678
00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:01,200
we had a number of

679
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:01,980
men in camouflage,

680
00:24:02,580 --> 00:24:03,960
with many 14s.

681
00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:05,580
I said, that's not a

682
00:24:05,580 --> 00:24:07,000
proper warrant, and

683
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:07,920
you know it isn't,

684
00:24:08,140 --> 00:24:08,980
get your men off

685
00:24:08,980 --> 00:24:09,720
this place.

686
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,560
And that was close

687
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:13,160
to the end of

688
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:13,380
that.

689
00:24:14,060 --> 00:24:15,340
The FBI's head of

690
00:24:15,340 --> 00:24:16,700
operations at Waco,

691
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,480
Bob Ricks, confirms

692
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,260
this story.

693
00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:20,140
All of a sudden, I

694
00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:21,080
heard the ATF was

695
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,220
running operations

696
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:23,280
over there against

697
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:24,400
Elohim City.

698
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,620
And so I demanded a

699
00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:26,260
meeting with the

700
00:24:26,260 --> 00:24:28,540
head of the ATF, and

701
00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:29,940
wanted to know exactly

702
00:24:29,940 --> 00:24:30,560
what they were going

703
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,040
to do, because we

704
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:31,480
didn't want to have

705
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:31,920
to come up and

706
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:32,480
clean up another

707
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:32,900
mess.

708
00:24:33,860 --> 00:24:34,660
Because you didn't

709
00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:35,360
want another Waco?

710
00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:35,940
Right.

711
00:24:37,140 --> 00:24:37,960
Malar made it

712
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:38,900
clear, if you come

713
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:40,620
in here with guns

714
00:24:40,620 --> 00:24:41,480
blazing, my people

715
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,320
will shoot back.

716
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:44,640
For all the

717
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:45,480
circumstantial

718
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,680
evidence, Reverend

719
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:47,700
Malar says that

720
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:48,960
Timothy McVeigh has

721
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,560
never stepped

722
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:50,100
foot in his

723
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:50,540
place.

724
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:51,860
I don't think he

725
00:24:51,860 --> 00:24:52,720
was ever here at

726
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:52,980
all.

727
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,280
But I do think

728
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,860
it's likely that

729
00:24:57,860 --> 00:24:58,520
he made a phone

730
00:24:58,520 --> 00:24:58,820
call.

731
00:24:58,940 --> 00:24:59,620
I don't know that

732
00:24:59,620 --> 00:24:59,980
he did.

733
00:25:00,780 --> 00:25:01,920
But it's possible

734
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:02,540
that he made a

735
00:25:02,540 --> 00:25:03,600
phone call and

736
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,000
asked for Andy

737
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:05,760
Strassmeyer.

738
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,500
He might have

739
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:08,480
been looking for a

740
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:09,520
place to light, you

741
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:10,460
know, a resting

742
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:11,300
place for him.

743
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:12,720
So do you think

744
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:13,780
that Timothy McVeigh

745
00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:15,080
phoned Andy

746
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,520
Strassmeyer because

747
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:17,460
he was thinking this

748
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:18,480
could possibly be a

749
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,020
hideout?

750
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:19,940
It's possible.

751
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,400
That's possible.

752
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:23,900
I think that's

753
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:24,240
possible.

754
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:24,960
It's a guess.

755
00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:25,900
It's conjecture.

756
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:27,660
It's not a

757
00:25:27,660 --> 00:25:28,060
statement.

758
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:30,400
But I think it's

759
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:30,860
possible.

760
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:31,940
Do you remember

761
00:25:31,940 --> 00:25:32,740
Carol Howe?

762
00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:34,280
Carol Howe?

763
00:25:35,020 --> 00:25:35,540
Yes.

764
00:25:36,220 --> 00:25:37,400
A pretty little

765
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:37,780
girl.

766
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:38,940
I refer to her as a

767
00:25:38,940 --> 00:25:39,680
poor little rich

768
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:40,020
girl.

769
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,260
What kind of stuff

770
00:25:41,260 --> 00:25:42,420
was she saying about

771
00:25:42,420 --> 00:25:43,080
this place?

772
00:25:43,580 --> 00:25:44,700
One of it was

773
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:47,680
that we had, I

774
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:48,840
think, prepared a

775
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,220
bomb or discussed

776
00:25:51,220 --> 00:25:52,180
that sort of thing

777
00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:53,840
or something very

778
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:54,360
violent.

779
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:56,720
And as you can

780
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,720
see, that's our

781
00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:59,840
day typical of us

782
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:00,120
here.

783
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,120
The word for

784
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:04,340
seventh is

785
00:26:04,340 --> 00:26:05,060
Yom Shabihi.

786
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:06,960
This is

787
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,760
the earth.

788
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:09,280
The sun is

789
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:10,380
at his end.

790
00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:12,360
Now we begin

791
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:13,880
Yom Shabihi.

792
00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:15,320
As I watched

793
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,280
Elohim City's

794
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:17,500
church service, I

795
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:18,340
was reminded of

796
00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:19,080
Richard Wayne

797
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,260
Snell, who'd

798
00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:21,060
plotted to blow up

799
00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:21,800
the Moa building

800
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:22,780
in 1983.

801
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,140
A few years after

802
00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:26,240
his plot failed,

803
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,540
Snell was sentenced

804
00:26:27,540 --> 00:26:28,760
to death for murder.

805
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:29,920
Got out of my van

806
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,700
and I shot

807
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:32,500
Officer Brian

808
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:33,940
twice from the

809
00:26:33,940 --> 00:26:34,140
hip.

810
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:36,280
Snell's execution

811
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,340
date was set

812
00:26:37,340 --> 00:26:38,420
for April the

813
00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:40,380
19th, 1995.

814
00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:41,680
The people at

815
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:42,600
Elohim City knew

816
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:43,540
that this was

817
00:26:43,540 --> 00:26:44,620
coming, that

818
00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:45,320
his last, he'd

819
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:45,720
run out of

820
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,100
appeals, but

821
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:48,320
they were just

822
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,000
amazed when the

823
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:50,600
date was set of

824
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:50,960
April the

825
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:51,540
19th.

826
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:52,900
April the

827
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:53,680
19th is a

828
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:54,580
holy day for

829
00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:55,400
anti-government

830
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,060
activists.

831
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:57,540
Not only was

832
00:26:57,540 --> 00:26:58,200
it the two-year

833
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:58,740
anniversary,

834
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,080
of Waco, it

835
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,300
is also Patriot's

836
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:02,180
Day, the day

837
00:27:02,180 --> 00:27:03,240
militias celebrate

838
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,360
independence from

839
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:05,300
British tyranny.

840
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,060
I'll guarantee

841
00:27:07,060 --> 00:27:08,920
you, Richard Wayne

842
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,880
Snell didn't set

843
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:11,460
the date.

844
00:27:13,820 --> 00:27:15,020
Right-wing people

845
00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:15,780
didn't set the

846
00:27:15,780 --> 00:27:16,020
date.

847
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:17,400
Government

848
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,340
agents arranged

849
00:27:19,340 --> 00:27:19,900
April the

850
00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:20,600
19th, it's

851
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,200
sort of like in

852
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:21,860
your face.

853
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:23,360
Patriotic

854
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:25,240
Americans celebrate

855
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,760
that day, and

856
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:27,660
on that day you

857
00:27:27,660 --> 00:27:28,740
have Waco,

858
00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:29,480
Waco, the

859
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:30,460
execution of

860
00:27:30,460 --> 00:27:31,740
Snell, and

861
00:27:31,740 --> 00:27:32,940
it just looks

862
00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:33,660
like as if there

863
00:27:33,660 --> 00:27:36,280
was an in-your-face

864
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,220
attempt to

865
00:27:37,220 --> 00:27:37,940
provoke.

866
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:39,900
Wayne Snell's

867
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:41,280
family lives at

868
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:41,920
Elohim City.

869
00:27:42,460 --> 00:27:43,200
That's motive.

870
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,640
This is motive.

871
00:27:45,060 --> 00:27:45,980
It was just like

872
00:27:45,980 --> 00:27:47,000
all the stars

873
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,360
had aligned.

874
00:27:48,820 --> 00:27:49,420
Something was

875
00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:50,640
violent was going

876
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:51,040
to happen.

877
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,040
On the morning of

878
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,120
Snell's execution,

879
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:55,380
just as Timothy

880
00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:56,420
McVeigh's yellow

881
00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:57,580
rider truck pulled

882
00:27:57,580 --> 00:27:58,440
up outside the

883
00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,340
mower building in

884
00:27:59,340 --> 00:28:00,360
Oklahoma City,

885
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:01,920
Snell asked his

886
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:02,640
guard if he could

887
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,180
watch the TV news.

888
00:28:04,180 --> 00:28:08,440
The guard turned the

889
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,180
television on.

890
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:10,300
Looking at the

891
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:11,180
north side of the

892
00:28:11,180 --> 00:28:11,800
building, which I'm

893
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,120
doing now, basically

894
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:14,080
the building's gone.

895
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:14,660
I mean, it's just

896
00:28:14,660 --> 00:28:15,600
blackened rubble.

897
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:17,960
Snell had already

898
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,220
warned prison guards

899
00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:20,140
that his death would

900
00:28:20,140 --> 00:28:22,040
be avenged, and now

901
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,440
the penitentiary's

902
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,000
death watch log noted.

903
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:26,700
Richard Wayne Snell

904
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:27,860
watched the breaking

905
00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:29,620
news, and he smiled

906
00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:30,900
and chuckled.

907
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,300
Shortly afterwards,

908
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:35,580
he was executed by

909
00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:36,520
lethal injection.

910
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:39,600
Conspiracy theorists

911
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,820
believe that Snell's

912
00:28:40,820 --> 00:28:41,900
behavior that morning

913
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:43,240
indicated that he knew

914
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:44,140
the bombing was going

915
00:28:44,140 --> 00:28:44,640
to happen.

916
00:28:45,380 --> 00:28:46,680
This was a bomb Snell

917
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,800
himself had plotted

918
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,260
with an Elohim City

919
00:28:49,260 --> 00:28:51,040
resident, James Ellison,

920
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:52,540
12 years earlier.

921
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,140
So where are we now?

922
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,240
We're at our cemetery.

923
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,120
We don't believe in

924
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,200
people dying, but they

925
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:01,480
do.

926
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,560
How many people are

927
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:06,140
buried here?

928
00:29:07,060 --> 00:29:08,280
All the dead ones.

929
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:11,260
I'm sorry.

930
00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:12,800
Are you recording this?

931
00:29:13,180 --> 00:29:13,860
I'm sorry.

932
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,380
Here's Richard Wayne

933
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:16,840
Snell.

934
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:17,840
This is the one you

935
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:18,180
want.

936
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,100
I think he's rightly

937
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:22,020
called a patriot.

938
00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:24,200
Why is he buried here?

939
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,180
You requested it.

940
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,800
He asked that he be

941
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:30,420
buried here.

942
00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:33,660
Could Snell's execution

943
00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:35,260
be the trigger for the

944
00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:36,540
Oklahoma City bombing?

945
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:38,620
Did Timothy McVeigh

946
00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:40,020
really meet with Elohim

947
00:29:40,020 --> 00:29:41,700
City's Andy Strassmeyer

948
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:43,260
in the weeks before the

949
00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:43,500
bombing?

950
00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:47,840
This is the Lady Godiva

951
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,240
strip club in Tulsa.

952
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,240
The Lady Godiva is an

953
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,400
unwitting part of the

954
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,060
conspiracy theory because

955
00:29:54,060 --> 00:29:55,480
its owner Floyd has a

956
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:56,980
security camera in the

957
00:29:56,980 --> 00:29:57,620
dressing room.

958
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,020
Why do you have cameras

959
00:29:59,020 --> 00:29:59,760
in the dressing room?

960
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,540
Unfortunately, in this

961
00:30:02,540 --> 00:30:05,280
line of work, a lot of

962
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,060
the girls are good

963
00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:06,620
girls.

964
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:09,300
It keeps down thievery.

965
00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:10,200
It keeps them from

966
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,320
stealing from each other.

967
00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:12,740
It keeps down drugs.

968
00:30:13,260 --> 00:30:14,240
The club's owners,

969
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,260
Floyd and Julie,

970
00:30:15,580 --> 00:30:16,860
usually erase the tapes

971
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:17,940
after two weeks.

972
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,180
But on the night of

973
00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:21,320
April the 8th, 1995,

974
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,500
two strippers got into a

975
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:24,780
fight in the dressing room.

976
00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:25,760
What's up?

977
00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:26,560
There's a lot of

978
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:27,280
chicken in here.

979
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:27,460
What's up?

980
00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:28,040
What's up?

981
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,000
What's up, bitch?

982
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:29,320
What's up, bitch?

983
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:30,000
What's up, bitch?

984
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,780
What's up, bitch?

985
00:30:31,780 --> 00:30:32,500
What's up, bitch?

986
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:33,600
Come on, come on.

987
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,460
Get that whore.

988
00:30:34,540 --> 00:30:35,440
You need to learn to

989
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:35,740
matter.

990
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:37,640
Floyd and Julie found the

991
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:38,840
cat fight to be funny,

992
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,300
so they gave the tape to a

993
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:41,360
friend in Arkansas.

994
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,800
And I guess being nosy,

995
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:44,940
he would have watched the

996
00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:46,080
tape all the way through.

997
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:47,620
And as he's watching the

998
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:49,420
rest of the tape, he

999
00:30:49,420 --> 00:30:51,160
realizes that the girls

1000
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:52,660
are talking about, quite

1001
00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:53,960
possibly, the guys that

1002
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:54,700
blew up the federal

1003
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:55,000
building.

1004
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:57,520
As the cat fight was

1005
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,220
occurring, three men in

1006
00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:00,380
the club were bragging to

1007
00:31:00,380 --> 00:31:01,840
some of the strippers about

1008
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,360
how smart and rich they

1009
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:04,760
were and how they were

1010
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,740
going to be famous 11 days

1011
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:07,200
later.

1012
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,140
I said, you.

1013
00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:09,080
And he goes, yes.

1014
00:31:09,740 --> 00:31:10,580
He goes, I'm a very

1015
00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:11,060
smart man.

1016
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,020
I said, you are.

1017
00:31:12,380 --> 00:31:13,080
And he goes, yes.

1018
00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:14,240
I'm like, oh, really?

1019
00:31:14,620 --> 00:31:15,440
And he goes, yes.

1020
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:16,880
And you're going to

1021
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:17,520
marry and never meet.

1022
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,720
On April of 1995, you're

1023
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:20,380
going to marry and never

1024
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:21,380
meet for the rest of your

1025
00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:21,680
life.

1026
00:31:22,780 --> 00:31:23,260
OK.

1027
00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:25,000
When Floyd and Julie

1028
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,380
realized what they had,

1029
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:27,900
they called the FBI.

1030
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:29,780
A couple of agents come to

1031
00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:31,720
the club, talked to the

1032
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,120
girls involved, showed them

1033
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:33,540
pictures.

1034
00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:36,140
The girls did identify

1035
00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:38,500
these guys who were in the

1036
00:31:38,500 --> 00:31:38,740
club.

1037
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,220
McVeigh and the other

1038
00:31:42,220 --> 00:31:43,820
gentlemen, Schlossmeyer.

1039
00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:45,580
Strassmeyer.

1040
00:31:45,580 --> 00:31:47,180
Strassmeyer, excuse me.

1041
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,740
They all did identify the

1042
00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:50,060
gentlemen.

1043
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,820
And of course, everyone's

1044
00:31:52,820 --> 00:31:54,400
heard of McVeigh and nobody's

1045
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,300
heard of Strassmeyer.

1046
00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:56,640
No, but the girls did

1047
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,040
identify Strassmeyer.

1048
00:31:59,340 --> 00:32:01,660
The agents at that time

1049
00:32:01,660 --> 00:32:04,140
says, we'll just, we don't

1050
00:32:04,140 --> 00:32:05,020
know if it's going to go to

1051
00:32:05,020 --> 00:32:05,300
court.

1052
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:06,220
We'll just kind of put it on

1053
00:32:06,220 --> 00:32:07,460
the back burner and let it

1054
00:32:07,460 --> 00:32:07,720
sit.

1055
00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:10,320
Well, that's where it's been.

1056
00:32:10,540 --> 00:32:12,140
This is what, five years later

1057
00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:13,420
is still on the back burner

1058
00:32:13,420 --> 00:32:15,380
because with Strassmeyer, I

1059
00:32:15,380 --> 00:32:17,920
don't know if he's, if it's a

1060
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,940
cover-up trying to protect him.

1061
00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:23,720
It seems like the more we find

1062
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,080
out, the less we want to know.

1063
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,420
In the aftermath of the Oklahoma City

1064
00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:33,700
bombing, President Clinton promised

1065
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:35,420
that no stone would be left

1066
00:32:35,420 --> 00:32:36,280
unturned.

1067
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,840
We will find the people who did

1068
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:39,180
this.

1069
00:32:40,540 --> 00:32:44,480
When we do, justice will be swift,

1070
00:32:45,180 --> 00:32:47,000
certain, and severe.

1071
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,920
20,000 individuals were interrogated,

1072
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,260
but Andy Strassmeyer was never

1073
00:32:53,260 --> 00:32:53,780
questioned.

1074
00:32:54,540 --> 00:32:56,660
He left the U.S. 18 months after

1075
00:32:56,660 --> 00:32:58,560
the bombing, and he now lives in

1076
00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:59,020
Germany.

1077
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,140
Here's something to think about.

1078
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,180
Andrea Strassmeyer, who is this

1079
00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:04,460
guy?

1080
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:06,320
Who is he?

1081
00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:08,860
Is he a legitimate terrorist?

1082
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,160
Living in this country illegally?

1083
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,820
Back in Phoenix, Dennis Mahan said he

1084
00:33:14,820 --> 00:33:16,500
wanted to tell me something he'd never

1085
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:18,720
told anyone before about Andy

1086
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:19,460
Strassmeyer.

1087
00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:24,120
The way he disappeared, and with his

1088
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,100
expertise, I, now, I think that me

1089
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:29,780
may have been involved.

1090
00:33:29,940 --> 00:33:31,500
I feel, I have a gut feeling that he

1091
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:31,860
was involved.

1092
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:32,200
I do.

1093
00:33:32,620 --> 00:33:33,540
At least he knew about it.

1094
00:33:34,260 --> 00:33:35,320
Because I've been trying to contact

1095
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,120
him for years, and I've always, I've

1096
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,200
always defended him.

1097
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,600
And he won't return my letters, he

1098
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:42,500
won't return my phone calls.

1099
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,540
I can't get his phone number now.

1100
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:46,800
And I've been banned from Germany.

1101
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,460
Why is that?

1102
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,240
And the way he, the way he, he went

1103
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,140
to Mexico, and went into France, and

1104
00:33:54,140 --> 00:33:54,700
then in Germany.

1105
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:56,660
Where did he get that kind of money

1106
00:33:56,660 --> 00:33:56,960
at?

1107
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,260
He did not pay for that ticket in

1108
00:34:00,260 --> 00:34:00,620
advance.

1109
00:34:01,180 --> 00:34:02,340
That ticket, the day he paid for the

1110
00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:03,940
tickets he got on that flight, that was

1111
00:34:03,940 --> 00:34:05,320
at least $1,500, maybe $2,000.

1112
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:07,780
So who might have paid for the tickets?

1113
00:34:07,780 --> 00:34:08,540
I don't know.

1114
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:09,920
No, I didn't.

1115
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,240
It turns out that Andy Strassmeier's

1116
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:17,200
father is Gunther Strassmeier, Helmut

1117
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,880
Cole's Secretary of State, the man known

1118
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,260
as the architect of German reunification.

1119
00:34:24,740 --> 00:34:27,260
Could it be possible that Carol Howe was

1120
00:34:27,260 --> 00:34:29,780
not the only undercover federal informant

1121
00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:31,000
at Elohim City?

1122
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,140
Or didn't you have another informant

1123
00:34:33,140 --> 00:34:34,840
there, too, working for the FBI at the

1124
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:35,360
same time?

1125
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,080
Quite possibly.

1126
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:37,280
Quite possibly.

1127
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:38,200
That's what I heard.

1128
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,280
We're not sure of that.

1129
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,720
But if there was, that would have been

1130
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:42,840
Andy Strassmeier.

1131
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,540
Conspiracy theorists believe that Carol

1132
00:34:46,540 --> 00:34:49,160
Howe and Andy Strassmeier warned the

1133
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:50,880
government that a bombing was going to

1134
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,420
happen, and this is why, they say, the

1135
00:34:53,420 --> 00:34:56,060
ATF office was almost empty that morning.

1136
00:34:57,820 --> 00:35:00,260
But why might the ATF have allowed this

1137
00:35:00,260 --> 00:35:01,200
bomb to go off?

1138
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,360
Were they trying for a big splash to make

1139
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:05,900
up for their disaster at Waco?

1140
00:35:06,660 --> 00:35:08,820
Did they hope to capture McVeigh red-handed

1141
00:35:08,820 --> 00:35:11,480
with the bomb, but McVeigh somehow slipped

1142
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:12,240
through the net?

1143
00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:16,420
An ATF officer later said that he was in

1144
00:35:16,420 --> 00:35:18,900
the elevator when the bomb went off with a

1145
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:20,000
DEA agent.

1146
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,880
But Oscar Johnson, the Moa building's

1147
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,400
elevator engineer, says this could not have

1148
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:25,760
happened.

1149
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,680
Our servicemen checked the elevator immediately

1150
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,420
after the blast, and there wasn't anybody on any

1151
00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:32,020
of the elevators.

1152
00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:34,580
I don't know why they would have to lie about

1153
00:35:34,580 --> 00:35:34,740
it.

1154
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,460
And I think they said it fell from the ninth

1155
00:35:37,460 --> 00:35:42,580
floor to three, which none of the elevators had

1156
00:35:42,580 --> 00:35:43,080
indication.

1157
00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:45,480
They have overspeed devices that are manually

1158
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:46,000
reset.

1159
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,180
None of those devices were tripped.

1160
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:50,200
And I didn't make up this story.

1161
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:52,400
All I did was state the facts as they were.

1162
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,620
So you weren't a conspiracy theorist before any

1163
00:35:55,620 --> 00:35:56,020
of this?

1164
00:35:56,180 --> 00:35:56,300
No.

1165
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,200
Just didn't, you're an engineer?

1166
00:35:59,700 --> 00:35:59,920
Yeah.

1167
00:36:02,260 --> 00:36:04,160
You know, I've told a lot of people about this, and

1168
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:05,460
very little of it's ever gotten to the air.

1169
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,860
I guess I'm considered a radical now.

1170
00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:10,900
So.

1171
00:36:12,340 --> 00:36:16,020
John Peeler, the ex-ATF informant, has an even

1172
00:36:16,020 --> 00:36:19,300
more startling theory as to why the ATF might

1173
00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:20,760
have allowed the bomb to happen.

1174
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,560
McVeigh's ex-lawyers told us that John Peeler may

1175
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,780
appear eccentric, but he has an important story to

1176
00:36:27,780 --> 00:36:28,140
tell.

1177
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,140
Three weeks before the Oklahoma bombing, I

1178
00:36:31,140 --> 00:36:34,580
call the Secret Service up and tell them, look, I'm

1179
00:36:34,580 --> 00:36:36,600
talking to all these guys, and they're all telling me

1180
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,920
that Oklahoma, to watch it on TV, is going to be blown

1181
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,020
up on that time and day.

1182
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,140
And Richard Wayne Snell's going to watch it on TV, is

1183
00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:43,920
what they're all saying.

1184
00:36:44,340 --> 00:36:45,880
And I said, this don't sound good to me.

1185
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,220
One of the reasons that they let this building get

1186
00:36:49,220 --> 00:36:51,860
blown up, they were about to do away with a hell of a

1187
00:36:51,860 --> 00:36:53,160
lot of the budget of the ATF.

1188
00:36:53,340 --> 00:36:53,940
But what happened?

1189
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,100
After the Oklahoma bombing, instead of being out of

1190
00:36:57,100 --> 00:37:00,320
work and out of jobs, they hired three times more

1191
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:00,800
agents.

1192
00:37:01,380 --> 00:37:03,540
And their budget just went out through the roof.

1193
00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:05,080
They all knew it was going to happen.

1194
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:06,360
They didn't stop it.

1195
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,100
The New World Order wanted it to happen to show that

1196
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:10,460
terrorism is on the rise.

1197
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,420
They need more gun control, more federal agents.

1198
00:37:13,420 --> 00:37:19,720
The conspiracy theory, point by point, is persuasive.

1199
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,000
But when you put it all together, you arrive at a very

1200
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,160
strange place.

1201
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:28,160
It seemed that only two men could solve the mystery.

1202
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,220
But McVeigh wasn't talking, and Strassmaier was in hiding.

1203
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,220
Could he be found?

1204
00:37:34,220 --> 00:37:38,600
There we go.

1205
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,440
Death to the New World Order.

1206
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:40,940
Here we go.

1207
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:41,960
Death, death, death.

1208
00:37:41,980 --> 00:37:42,580
The New World Order.

1209
00:37:42,980 --> 00:37:43,780
Kill the Jews.

1210
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,060
Kill the corporate bastards.

1211
00:37:45,420 --> 00:37:45,760
All right.

1212
00:37:46,020 --> 00:37:46,300
Oh.

1213
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:47,740
That's good.

1214
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:48,000
No.

1215
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,220
Dennis Mahan is a conspiracy theorist.

1216
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,880
But he says he doesn't believe the conspiracy theory that he was

1217
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,740
involved in the Oklahoma bomb.

1218
00:37:56,740 --> 00:38:01,260
After all, after that bombing of the FBI's budget, they got $400 million

1219
00:38:01,260 --> 00:38:04,620
for domestic terrorism investigation.

1220
00:38:05,660 --> 00:38:07,780
They got that $400 million bucks extra.

1221
00:38:08,540 --> 00:38:10,500
That's why they're following me, guys like me around everywhere.

1222
00:38:10,740 --> 00:38:12,100
They got to spend that money somehow.

1223
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,780
And also the VATF got a big shot in the arm.

1224
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,380
And of course Clinton, his ratings went way up.

1225
00:38:19,380 --> 00:38:22,200
You know, you wonder about it.

1226
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,300
You do, you do.

1227
00:38:24,180 --> 00:38:28,780
One of the strangest facts in all of this is the story of the ATF officer

1228
00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:31,420
who said he was in the elevator when the bomb went off.

1229
00:38:32,060 --> 00:38:35,980
How could the ATF have got it wrong about the whereabouts of their staff?

1230
00:38:36,220 --> 00:38:38,800
Whether the person was in the elevator or not in the elevator,

1231
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:46,040
and the elevator fell or didn't fall, I have no idea about that situation.

1232
00:38:46,180 --> 00:38:49,100
I do know the people involved were in that building.

1233
00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:53,660
If you have a 7,000-pound bomb goes off

1234
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:55,820
and literally takes off half of the building,

1235
00:38:56,620 --> 00:38:59,880
I think many people have said things after that

1236
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:01,720
that turned out not to be completely accurate

1237
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:03,120
after their brains were scrambled.

1238
00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:08,420
The one man who it seemed could solve the mystery was Andy Strassmeyer.

1239
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,860
It did seem odd that the son of Helmut Kohl's Secretary of State

1240
00:39:12,860 --> 00:39:14,840
was living in the woods at Elohim City.

1241
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,860
We managed to track Andy Strassmeyer down to Germany.

1242
00:39:20,620 --> 00:39:22,520
He asked that we didn't show his face.

1243
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,380
Can you see why people think that you're a very mysterious figure?

1244
00:39:26,820 --> 00:39:28,480
Yes, because I've been portrayed like that.

1245
00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:31,120
I prefer to live in a log cabin in the woods

1246
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,480
than being a rich yuppie.

1247
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,160
And I think basically that did it to me.

1248
00:39:35,980 --> 00:39:38,420
That somebody with college education,

1249
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,680
comes from an upper-middle-class family from Europe,

1250
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,300
lives on a mountainside.

1251
00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:45,740
It happened that my father is a politician

1252
00:39:45,740 --> 00:39:47,920
in the German government,

1253
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,680
and that spices the story up as well.

1254
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,120
Well, I hate to say this,

1255
00:39:51,260 --> 00:39:52,360
and I really do hate to say this,

1256
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:52,940
because I don't know.

1257
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,560
I don't know what's true and what's not true

1258
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,420
in this mysterious saga.

1259
00:39:56,540 --> 00:39:58,720
But Reverend Millard did say to us

1260
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:01,440
that he thought that you were an agent.

1261
00:40:03,140 --> 00:40:04,760
Is that upsetting to you?

1262
00:40:04,860 --> 00:40:05,120
Yes.

1263
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:06,000
Why?

1264
00:40:06,540 --> 00:40:08,600
Well, because I did consider him a friend.

1265
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,660
And it really upsets me because he knows better.

1266
00:40:13,860 --> 00:40:14,800
Why would he say it?

1267
00:40:15,260 --> 00:40:16,420
Maybe he's telling you something

1268
00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:18,180
to get your office back.

1269
00:40:18,180 --> 00:40:18,880
I don't know.

1270
00:40:19,460 --> 00:40:20,600
Let's look at the facts.

1271
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,260
There was that trans-meeting of McVeigh and me,

1272
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:25,800
and I met him in Tulsa at a gun show.

1273
00:40:26,060 --> 00:40:26,940
Actually, it's a coincidence

1274
00:40:26,940 --> 00:40:30,240
that I didn't meet McVeigh more than one time,

1275
00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:32,180
because we used to go in the same gun shows.

1276
00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:33,040
But you were seen with him

1277
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,680
at the Lady Godiva strip club.

1278
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:36,260
It's funny.

1279
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:37,820
I always hear that name, Lady Godiva.

1280
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,480
And I think I remember every strip club

1281
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:41,520
I've been in in my life,

1282
00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:42,580
but I've never been there.

1283
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:44,260
And I would remember.

1284
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:46,600
Supposedly, the only evidence

1285
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,380
was a security camera

1286
00:40:48,380 --> 00:40:51,200
filming a conversation between two dancers,

1287
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:52,280
basically saying,

1288
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,120
look, there's a really weird guy sitting out there.

1289
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,460
I don't think there's any footage of McVeigh or me.

1290
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:57,980
The other thing,

1291
00:40:58,140 --> 00:40:59,800
I heard that one of the dancers,

1292
00:41:00,020 --> 00:41:02,460
she committed suicide afterwards, unfortunately.

1293
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:05,600
Dennis says that Andreas Strassmeier

1294
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,580
Strassmeier and Strassmeier's roommate

1295
00:41:07,580 --> 00:41:08,740
from Elohim City

1296
00:41:08,740 --> 00:41:11,880
called him from Lady Godiva that night.

1297
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:13,800
They tried to contact me

1298
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,780
to visit them several times.

1299
00:41:15,860 --> 00:41:17,460
They called me like eight times

1300
00:41:17,460 --> 00:41:19,620
between eight and 11 o'clock that day.

1301
00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:20,160
They were there.

1302
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:21,700
Any white man,

1303
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:22,940
red-blooded American male

1304
00:41:22,940 --> 00:41:24,620
will go to Lady Godiva's at least once

1305
00:41:24,620 --> 00:41:26,460
if he's been in Tulsa more than a year.

1306
00:41:27,060 --> 00:41:27,680
Andy Strassmeier,

1307
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:28,660
all the boys like that.

1308
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,240
The women at Lady Godiva's

1309
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:31,740
are the most beautiful in the Tulsa.

1310
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:33,080
They're the best,

1311
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,260
the best ladies.

1312
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:36,560
So basically...

1313
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:37,180
Best genetics.

1314
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,020
What do you think of Dennis?

1315
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:43,100
Hmm, Dennis.

1316
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,580
He's kind of a loony, you know.

1317
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,180
He's a little bit of a loony.

1318
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,820
Do you think he's working as an informant?

1319
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:51,540
Absolutely not.

1320
00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:52,680
Definitely not?

1321
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,600
No, I guarantee that Dennis Mayon is not.

1322
00:41:54,940 --> 00:41:56,020
He would be absolutely worthless

1323
00:41:56,020 --> 00:41:58,660
as an informant for anyone, you know.

1324
00:41:59,220 --> 00:42:02,840
Were you ever an agent for any U.S. agency?

1325
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:03,660
No, never.

1326
00:42:04,340 --> 00:42:04,600
Never.

1327
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:07,940
Did you have anything to do

1328
00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:08,860
with the Oklahoma bomb?

1329
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:10,440
No, nothing at all.

1330
00:42:11,060 --> 00:42:12,080
Which is worse,

1331
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:13,440
being considered

1332
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,380
part of the plot

1333
00:42:16,380 --> 00:42:18,740
to blur the Moor building

1334
00:42:18,740 --> 00:42:21,100
or being considered an undercover agent?

1335
00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:23,140
That's both offensive, I think.

1336
00:42:23,420 --> 00:42:24,360
It's offensive because

1337
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:25,500
it implies that I'm an idiot.

1338
00:42:27,220 --> 00:42:28,320
You know, I'm stupid.

1339
00:42:28,860 --> 00:42:29,680
Which one?

1340
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:30,160
Both.

1341
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,080
The first insult,

1342
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:32,160
I'm a snitch,

1343
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,100
I'm a disloyal, dishonest person.

1344
00:42:34,820 --> 00:42:35,180
Second,

1345
00:42:35,940 --> 00:42:37,340
I work for the BHAF,

1346
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:38,880
an agency I read utterly despise

1347
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:39,740
because I think the government

1348
00:42:39,740 --> 00:42:40,540
paid terrorists.

1349
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:42,480
So that's two insults in one,

1350
00:42:43,020 --> 00:42:43,320
you know.

1351
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:43,980
And then,

1352
00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:45,060
the third insult,

1353
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:46,040
that I'm a stupid idiot

1354
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,420
who blows up innocent people

1355
00:42:47,420 --> 00:42:48,580
and basically

1356
00:42:48,580 --> 00:42:50,140
does the government

1357
00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:51,000
the biggest favor

1358
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,580
they can expect

1359
00:42:52,580 --> 00:42:53,860
to help them

1360
00:42:53,860 --> 00:42:55,660
to push their agenda through.

1361
00:42:55,660 --> 00:42:57,240
There's a fourth one.

1362
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:58,220
Which one is that?

1363
00:42:58,220 --> 00:42:59,080
Which is that you're an idiot

1364
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,200
for being an agent

1365
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,820
who failed to stop the bomb

1366
00:43:04,820 --> 00:43:05,140
from happening.

1367
00:43:05,140 --> 00:43:05,540
Absolutely.

1368
00:43:05,780 --> 00:43:06,620
So we got four, yeah.

1369
00:43:06,820 --> 00:43:07,320
So we, yeah.

1370
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:08,680
Exactly.

1371
00:43:09,020 --> 00:43:09,560
We got four.

1372
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:11,220
You think you know

1373
00:43:11,220 --> 00:43:12,280
all the conspiracy theories

1374
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:12,880
about me.

1375
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:14,220
Well, I heard them before.

1376
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:14,620
You did.

1377
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:17,540
Dennis seems secretly thrilled

1378
00:43:17,540 --> 00:43:18,920
to be a central player

1379
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,440
in this alternative history

1380
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:21,740
of the Oklahoma bombing.

1381
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:26,860
Columbia Pictures

1382
00:43:26,860 --> 00:43:27,900
are even considering

1383
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:28,880
making a movie

1384
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,140
about his love affair

1385
00:43:30,140 --> 00:43:30,780
with Carol.

1386
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:32,160
Be a hell of a good movie.

1387
00:43:33,660 --> 00:43:34,240
Yeah, it would.

1388
00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:34,780
Who would you have

1389
00:43:34,780 --> 00:43:35,300
playing you?

1390
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:37,280
Uh,

1391
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,240
I hope that a guy like,

1392
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:39,500
uh,

1393
00:43:40,420 --> 00:43:40,680
uh,

1394
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:41,520
Tom Berenger,

1395
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,160
but, uh,

1396
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:43,700
might be the little

1397
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:45,420
Danny DeVito.

1398
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:47,120
One guy said

1399
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:47,700
Danny DeVito's

1400
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:48,300
going to play me.

1401
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:49,460
You know,

1402
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:50,040
that'll,

1403
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:50,900
that'll devastate me.

1404
00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:52,480
I'll leave the country.

1405
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:53,520
You know,

1406
00:43:53,540 --> 00:43:54,200
it's a sad thing.

1407
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:55,080
Americans,

1408
00:43:55,620 --> 00:43:56,380
their legends

1409
00:43:56,380 --> 00:43:57,160
and their heroes

1410
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:58,440
are more important

1411
00:43:58,440 --> 00:43:59,420
than the actual truth.

1412
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:01,320
And that's the best message

1413
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:02,520
you can bring across,

1414
00:44:02,580 --> 00:44:02,920
I think.

1415
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:04,420
So you think that

1416
00:44:04,420 --> 00:44:05,460
the story of

1417
00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:06,740
the mysterious German,

1418
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:07,400
do you think

1419
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,280
that's a more

1420
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:09,400
compelling story?

1421
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:10,000
Oh, absolutely.

1422
00:44:10,220 --> 00:44:11,300
It's a wonderful story.

1423
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:11,880
I mean,

1424
00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:12,300
you couldn't,

1425
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:13,060
you couldn't think

1426
00:44:13,060 --> 00:44:13,740
of a better script

1427
00:44:13,740 --> 00:44:14,620
for a great movie.

1428
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:15,500
Unfortunately,

1429
00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:16,400
it's not true.

1430
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:17,040
You know?

1431
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:25,720
Dennis wants to take us

1432
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:26,380
on a pilgrimage

1433
00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:27,880
to Kingman, Arizona,

1434
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:29,420
to the motel room

1435
00:44:29,420 --> 00:44:30,440
where Timothy McVeigh

1436
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:31,740
stayed in the months

1437
00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:32,540
before the bombing.

1438
00:44:33,420 --> 00:44:34,860
Tim is going to the grave

1439
00:44:34,860 --> 00:44:36,040
with the secrets.

1440
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:36,940
He will not rat

1441
00:44:36,940 --> 00:44:38,240
on his brothers,

1442
00:44:38,420 --> 00:44:38,980
his comrades.

1443
00:44:39,220 --> 00:44:39,380
So,

1444
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:40,180
you know,

1445
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:41,400
you gotta admit,

1446
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:42,140
what a soldier.

1447
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:42,660
What a,

1448
00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:44,200
what a brave man

1449
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:45,080
and a courageous man.

1450
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:46,980
And it must have character

1451
00:44:46,980 --> 00:44:47,920
not to rat on us,

1452
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:49,280
his comrades,

1453
00:44:49,420 --> 00:44:50,100
whoever they may be.

1454
00:44:50,660 --> 00:44:51,940
This is for Tim McVeigh.

1455
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:54,720
Hail a true patriot.

1456
00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:56,440
Hail Tim McVeigh.

1457
00:44:57,140 --> 00:44:58,060
Hail Tim McVeigh,

1458
00:44:58,300 --> 00:44:58,760
our hero.

1459
00:44:59,120 --> 00:44:59,600
Tim McVeigh,

1460
00:44:59,660 --> 00:45:00,060
my hero.

1461
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,240
It used to be said

1462
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:12,040
that the murder of JFK

1463
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,320
would only be resolved

1464
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,720
with a deathbed confession.

1465
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,680
There have so far

1466
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,440
been 28 deathbed confessions.

1467
00:45:25,060 --> 00:45:26,420
Conspiracy theorists

1468
00:45:26,420 --> 00:45:27,200
have long said

1469
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:27,900
that the truth

1470
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:29,160
of the Oklahoma bombing

1471
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,520
would only be revealed

1472
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:31,220
when McVeigh

1473
00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:32,460
breaks his silence.

1474
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:34,300
McVeigh has now

1475
00:45:34,300 --> 00:45:35,600
broken his silence.

1476
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:37,640
McVeigh denies

1477
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,240
ever being in a strip club

1478
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,420
with Andrea Strassmeyer.

1479
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:42,600
He says

1480
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:43,780
he never met

1481
00:45:43,780 --> 00:45:45,320
that Richard Wayne Snell

1482
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:46,760
really knew

1483
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:47,540
very little

1484
00:45:47,540 --> 00:45:48,660
about his case

1485
00:45:48,660 --> 00:45:50,460
and he's also told us

1486
00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:51,540
that he never

1487
00:45:51,540 --> 00:45:53,440
visited Elohim City

1488
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,120
where Richard Wayne Snell

1489
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:55,940
was buried.

1490
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:57,320
To him,

1491
00:45:57,900 --> 00:45:59,300
he describes it all

1492
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:00,020
as just being

1493
00:46:00,020 --> 00:46:00,800
a coincidence.

1494
00:46:01,340 --> 00:46:02,480
McVeigh did say

1495
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,560
that he called

1496
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:04,860
Elohim City

1497
00:46:04,860 --> 00:46:07,680
shortly before the bombing

1498
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:08,960
when he was coming

1499
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:09,140
when he was coming up

1500
00:46:09,140 --> 00:46:10,060
with contingencies

1501
00:46:10,060 --> 00:46:11,780
again as a possible place

1502
00:46:11,780 --> 00:46:14,180
where he could find cover

1503
00:46:14,180 --> 00:46:16,020
after the bombing

1504
00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:17,420
and he asked for

1505
00:46:17,420 --> 00:46:18,820
Andrea Strassmeyer

1506
00:46:18,820 --> 00:46:22,020
but he wasn't there

1507
00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:23,620
and I asked him

1508
00:46:23,620 --> 00:46:25,220
about Carol Howe as well

1509
00:46:25,220 --> 00:46:26,440
and he said

1510
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:27,820
she's good looking

1511
00:46:27,820 --> 00:46:28,600
and he wouldn't mind

1512
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,060
having to put it

1513
00:46:30,060 --> 00:46:32,660
in softer terms

1514
00:46:32,660 --> 00:46:33,740
relations with her.

1515
00:46:33,740 --> 00:46:35,500
He's the type of guy

1516
00:46:35,500 --> 00:46:36,840
But he never met her.

1517
00:46:37,060 --> 00:46:37,840
He never met her.

1518
00:46:37,900 --> 00:46:38,960
He's only seen pictures.

1519
00:46:39,420 --> 00:46:39,860
Exactly.

1520
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:41,480
He's only seen pictures of her.

1521
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,280
For the conspiracy theories

1522
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:44,300
to still work,

1523
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:45,300
McVeigh would now

1524
00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:46,720
have to be protecting people

1525
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:47,340
he presumes

1526
00:46:47,340 --> 00:46:48,280
to be undercover agents

1527
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,280
of the New World Order.

1528
00:46:50,660 --> 00:46:51,940
It's the silent brotherhood.

1529
00:46:52,220 --> 00:46:53,160
That's what it all is.

1530
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:54,180
All of this is about.

1531
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:56,620
He is doing

1532
00:46:56,620 --> 00:46:57,840
the patriot martyr.

1533
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:00,280
That's him.

1534
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,340
But if some of his

1535
00:47:01,340 --> 00:47:02,340
co-conspirators

1536
00:47:02,340 --> 00:47:05,540
are undercover informants

1537
00:47:05,540 --> 00:47:06,220
why does he have

1538
00:47:06,220 --> 00:47:07,260
allegiance to them?

1539
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:09,320
Well,

1540
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,120
in for a penny

1541
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:10,840
in for a pound.

1542
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:12,800
These are good questions.

1543
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:14,300
You wonder about these things.

1544
00:47:14,420 --> 00:47:14,780
What is,

1545
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,260
what goes on in his mind?

1546
00:47:16,980 --> 00:47:18,420
J.D. might actually

1547
00:47:18,420 --> 00:47:19,500
be on to something.

1548
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,060
McVeigh has changed

1549
00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:21,660
his position

1550
00:47:21,660 --> 00:47:22,740
on Elohim City

1551
00:47:22,740 --> 00:47:23,760
over the years.

1552
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:25,160
At first he denied

1553
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:26,740
ever telephoning the place.

1554
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:28,220
McVeigh says,

1555
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:28,500
well,

1556
00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:29,960
you know,

1557
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,380
yes,

1558
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:32,440
now that this phone call

1559
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:33,080
has come up

1560
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:34,000
and now there is a record

1561
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,120
of me calling Elohim City.

1562
00:47:35,220 --> 00:47:36,060
Let me clarify that.

1563
00:47:36,780 --> 00:47:37,060
See,

1564
00:47:37,140 --> 00:47:37,560
before he said,

1565
00:47:37,620 --> 00:47:38,200
I don't know anything

1566
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:38,860
about those people.

1567
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:40,300
His story changes

1568
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:41,040
and evolves

1569
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,620
until finally

1570
00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:44,200
what he is typical

1571
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:44,940
for doing

1572
00:47:44,940 --> 00:47:46,120
is when he's in a corner

1573
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,920
he throws a childish fit

1574
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,080
and he says,

1575
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:49,920
I don't want to hear

1576
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:50,480
any more of this

1577
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:51,480
conspiracy shit.

1578
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:53,300
There is something

1579
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:54,360
hard to give up

1580
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,080
about the conspiracy theories.

1581
00:47:56,740 --> 00:47:57,580
The strip club

1582
00:47:57,580 --> 00:47:58,640
and the mysterious

1583
00:47:58,640 --> 00:47:59,680
German national

1584
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:00,820
makes for a more

1585
00:48:00,820 --> 00:48:01,820
compelling narrative

1586
00:48:01,820 --> 00:48:03,920
than that of a pop culture geek

1587
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,680
battling the evil empire.

1588
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:09,440
McVeigh's aim

1589
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:10,180
in blowing up

1590
00:48:10,180 --> 00:48:10,960
the Moa building

1591
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:11,880
was to strike

1592
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:12,520
at the heart

1593
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:13,800
of the New World Order.

1594
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,080
But conspiracy theorists

1595
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:16,740
believe that

1596
00:48:16,740 --> 00:48:18,980
the 3,000 FBI documents

1597
00:48:18,980 --> 00:48:19,920
discovered just

1598
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:20,900
two days ago

1599
00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:21,940
might prove

1600
00:48:21,940 --> 00:48:23,060
that the New World Order

1601
00:48:23,060 --> 00:48:23,660
itself

1602
00:48:23,660 --> 00:48:24,660
played a part

1603
00:48:24,660 --> 00:48:25,260
in the bombing.

1604
00:48:26,220 --> 00:48:27,160
McVeigh is seething

1605
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:27,680
about this

1606
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:28,900
in his death row cell.

1607
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,640
He feels his last

1608
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:31,600
grand statement,

1609
00:48:32,020 --> 00:48:32,820
his execution,

1610
00:48:33,340 --> 00:48:34,540
has now been spoiled.

1611
00:48:34,540 --> 00:48:34,700
been spoiled.

1612
00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:43,940
He feels the same

1613
00:48:43,940 --> 00:48:44,280
day,

1614
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:44,420
back and forth

1615
00:48:44,420 --> 00:48:44,740
and taker

1616
00:48:44,740 --> 00:48:45,320
no,

1617
00:48:45,380 --> 00:48:45,660
it may be

1618
00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:46,020
as promised.

1619
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:47,800
The late

1620
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:48,380
혹시

1621
00:48:48,380 --> 00:48:49,040
this

1622
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:49,900
is

1623
00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:50,260
a

1624
00:48:50,260 --> 00:48:51,580
new

1625
00:48:51,580 --> 00:48:51,800
answer

1626
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:52,180
about

1627
00:48:52,180 --> 00:48:53,120
the

1628
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:54,780
maybe

1629
00:48:54,780 --> 00:48:55,240
the

1630
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:56,240
day,

1631
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:57,880
it may be

1632
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:58,160
lost.

1633
00:48:58,820 --> 00:48:59,440
The

1634
00:48:59,440 --> 00:48:59,720
Lord

1635
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:00,100
has now

1636
00:49:00,100 --> 00:49:00,700
articulated

1637
00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:01,020
a

1638
00:49:01,020 --> 00:49:01,080
name

1639
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:01,480
Is

1640
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:02,640
food

1641
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:03,260
a

1642
00:49:03,260 --> 00:49:33,240
Transcription by CastingWords