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I've always been fascinated by the pop star Michael Jackson.

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Over the last few years, I've made several approaches

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to see if he'd be interested in collaborating on a documentary.

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I never heard back.

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But in the summer of 2002, I decided to make a start without him,

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hoping that Michael would want to get involved later.

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I felt it was a risk worth taking

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for a chance to learn about the most eccentric pop star in the world.

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It was June, and Michael Jackson was in England for a short visit.

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He stayed in London and was ferried around by his friend Uri Geller

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to see various sites, including the Houses of Parliament.

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Pardon?

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What are you looking to see?

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Gee, I don't know.

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I haven't been in yet.

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Uri also took Michael to Devon for the day

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to visit his football club, Exeter City.

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When I called Michael, and I said to him,

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Michael, will you come to Exeter City Football Club?

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He said, are there going to be children from hospitals?

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I said, yes.

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His first words were, see it as done.

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Michael Jackson!

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Hello to you wonderful people of Exeter.

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I wasn't in Exeter that day.

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I was back in London, checking into Michael's hotel

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in an effort to get close to him.

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I'd already made several calls to Uri Geller

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to see if he could arrange a meeting with Michael,

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and at first he'd seemed keen to let us film some of the trip.

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But now that Michael was in the country,

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I was having trouble getting through it all.

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Hi, we're either on the phone or out of range,

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so at the sound of the beep,

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please leave your name and phone number

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and we'll call you back as soon as possible.

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Alternatively, you can text message us on the same number.

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Bye.

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Well, what do you think?

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Does he use the answer?

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Yeah, I'll try it back in a little bit.

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OK.

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Burns had gathered outside Michael's hotel

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to deliver gifts and sing songs in his honour.

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Knowing that he's in that building, you know,

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you can just feel it so much atmosphere

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and high spirits around here.

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You know, like, everyone from all over the world,

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different countries and all different nationalities,

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we're giving back some of that love that we have for Michael,

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what he gives to us when he expresses his music.

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Louis!

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Yeah?

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See, I told you it was.

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How are you doing?

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Mark Lester!

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I recognise the name.

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Mark Lester was Oliver Twist in the 1968 film.

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Are you staying in the hotel?

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No, we've just been seeing...

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She's been in.

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To see Michael?

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Yes.

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Are you joking?

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No.

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I've known Michael for years.

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Really?

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Yes.

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How about that?

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Yeah.

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I appreciate it.

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How did you meet him?

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Well, we share a common interest in...

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Well, a common thing in the fact we were both child stars.

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Yeah.

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And so we've sort of known each other since we were kids, really.

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How amazing.

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I still hadn't heard back from Uri, so I decided to write Michael a letter.

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What are you writing?

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Dear Michael, I'm making a documentary for BBC Television about you and what you mean

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to your fans.

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I would love to speak to you.

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Smiley face?

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Yeah.

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Do you think so?

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Well, yeah.

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I mean, he seems like the kind of guy who'd appreciate her.

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Am I plugged in?

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Can you hear me?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Michael happened to be staying on the same floor as me, and a security guard was outside

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his room all night.

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I've got a message.

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I can't get you to know the security and they'll take it from me.

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Okay, brilliant.

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Thanks very much.

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Yeah.

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Thanks a lot.

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I couldn't be sure that Michael would ever receive my letter, or that he'd read it if

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he did, or if he'd appreciate it, let alone respond to it.

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I tried to remain positive.

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There was a second reason why Michael Jackson was in the UK.

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A demonstration had been organised against Michael's record label, Sony.

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Sales of Invincible, Michael's latest album, had been disappointing, and Michael blamed

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Sony for not promoting it enough.

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Fans had been bussed in from all over Europe to lend support.

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Oh, that is a brilliant shirt.

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He's coming in?

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Yeah.

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Michael's coming?

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Yeah.

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Michael's coming.

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Are you lying?

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I'm lying.

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Oh, wait.

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Are you serious?

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Are you serious?

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He's actually on there.

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He's actually on there.

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It's quite exciting.

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It had been my first encounter with Michael, and even I hadn't been immune to the excitement.

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The number of fans hadn't been huge, but the devotion was undeniable.

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Are you all right?

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Come on.

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Michael flew back to America.

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I'd still had no word from the Jackson camp, and to make matters worse, I'd heard a troubling

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rumour.

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Martin Bashir, the ITV journalist, had been seen going for a meeting with Michael.

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It was too early to tell whether this might have implications for my documentary.

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Without Michael, I thought the next best thing might be to meet some of his friends.

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Like Mark Lester, many of them have been child stars, former child stars, and children.

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We arranged an interview with Terry George, who'd been friends with Michael as a teenager.

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But then we got an email from Terry saying he wanted to pull out.

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Strangely, the email was also sent to Uri Geller.

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It was time to meet Uri.

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Hello.

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Hello, Uri. How are you doing?

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Coming in.

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Thank you.

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You are kind of an unofficial spokesperson for people who want to speak to Michael.

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They come to see you, don't they?

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They come to see me because it's just, it's known that we are friends.

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Michael's been here, hasn't he?

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Yeah, Michael has been in my house.

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Many times?

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I don't want to comment on that.

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Why not?

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But certainly there are, because it's no one's business how many times he's been here.

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But I can tell you that there was one occasion where...

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That makes me think maybe not that many.

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No, it's not that many.

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Really?

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No, of course.

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I mean, it's not, how many times did he come to England overall?

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Not many.

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There's a picture of Michael over here.

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And may I pick that up, Uri?

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, this was an amazing event.

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When I became the joint chairman of Exeter City Football Club, I called up Michael and David Blaine,

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and I asked them whether they would become honorary directors to come all the way from Los Angeles

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and to give that unbelievable speech where you were.

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You were there.

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You attended.

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We all were.

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At Exeter City Football Club.

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No, I didn't.

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Or you weren't there.

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We weren't Atlantic.

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But I thought you were lingering in the background.

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No, because we wanted to be in the stadium, but we weren't allowed.

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And in fact, when Michael was over...

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I thought you were there.

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No, because we called to see if we could interview you in the run-up.

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Do you remember?

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In the run-up to the event?

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And you said no.

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I said to you no.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Do you want to know why I said no?

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With you, there's always that suspicion that you're going to turn this into something ridicule, Michael.

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I think that he's been hurt so much by the press, by television, that he's very reluctant in opening up and inviting a crew into his own home.

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Although I have arranged an interview with him for ITV because a certain journalist in ITV, I believed that he had credibility and he was honest in what he was saying.

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I'm not saying that you're not honest.

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No, I'm not saying that.

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Is it the Martin Bashir interview?

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Mm-hmm.

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So...

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And if they have, which they have started interviewing Michael, that's a fantastic scoop for ITV.

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I mean, not a lot of camera crews going to Neverland.

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Have they been to Neverland?

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I think so.

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I contacted you when, was it early June?

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Mm-hmm.

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About hoping to meet Michael.

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Yeah.

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And maybe being part of the Exeter City football event.

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Yes.

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And at that time, not only did you not help me, you helped Martin Bashir get an interview with Michael Jackson.

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I'm sorry.

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Please forgive me.

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Forgive me if I was wrong.

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We all make mistakes.

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I could have been wrong.

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Well, listen, the good news is...

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And you're here talking to me.

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We're still here.

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We're talking to you.

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Exactly.

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And if you want to fix it up now or tomorrow or next week, that would be brilliant.

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I'll tell you what.

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I'll give you my word that I will try.

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I will ask Michael whether he would be interviewed by you.

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But again, having said that, while you were doing and preparing for this documentary,

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you have approached a few people who had negative material to say about Michael.

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And that gets to me.

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What makes you say that?

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I won't mention names.

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But you were trying to extract negativity out of people towards Michael.

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I think I know what you're talking about.

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Okay.

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But that gets to me.

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Do you mean Terry George?

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I won't mention names.

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Why?

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Because I just don't want to mention names.

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I know you got an email from Terry.

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I think you know that I know because the email was CC'd to you.

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And we did intend to interview Terry.

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And we were hoping to do it on Monday.

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Now Terry, having spoken to you or been in contact with you, has withdrawn his interview.

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I don't want to mention names.

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I've got...

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I don't expect you to.

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I mean, I've mentioned the names, so you don't have to.

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I will not mention anything, whether or what emails I get.

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But I tell you this, that I did get emails from different sources that you have approached

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that led me to believe that the flavour of this programme will be anti...

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sort of, it will be derogatory towards Michael.

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This is Michael in 2002.

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And this is an approved photograph.

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I think Michael looks great here.

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It could be even a look-alike.

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You know, you never know.

247
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It's not a... I'm not doing a stunt.

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This isn't a...

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Okay.

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Yeah, this is a picture of Michael Jackson.

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And the reason I'm sort of pulling it out is just because it's easy to talk about Michael Jackson.

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And he's not here in person, so it's nice to have something to refer to, to remind yourself who we're talking about.

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Yeah, you see, these are exactly the lines that make your programme the suspicious programme that I'm talking about.

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Why?

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Because of your... the way you react and the sort of snaky manner you bring up things.

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This was a very good example, Matt.

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I don't follow you.

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Look, we're not in kindergarten here, are we, Louis?

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Come on.

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I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

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Do you consider me a four-year-old?

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Are you referring to the fact that I've got photographs?

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00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:05,020
I'm referring to the manner of your questioning, the way, oh, I'm holding a picture just to remind you that Michael is not here, so a picture.

264
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:06,720
That's unnecessary.

265
00:13:06,980 --> 00:13:15,240
This is what makes your programme, in my opinion, not the right programme to interview Michael Jackson.

266
00:13:15,740 --> 00:13:21,580
It was getting a little tense, so for a change of mood, I asked Uri about his wedding the year before.

267
00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:25,600
Why did you think Michael would be a good person to be the best man?

268
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:31,880
He was... he's a friend, and he was in England, and I thought that it would be just a wonderful angle.

269
00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:39,700
Did he give... because best men conventionally give a speech where they reveal secrets about the... about the groom, don't they?

270
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:40,580
No, not in Jewish weddings.

271
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,300
No? What do they do in Jewish weddings?

272
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:43,960
They lift you up.

273
00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:44,720
Do they?

274
00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:48,220
On a chair, and they dance to klezmer music.

275
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:48,700
Do they?

276
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:49,780
They don't do the speech?

277
00:13:49,780 --> 00:13:50,580
Oh, Michael was amazing.

278
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,880
They don't do... I'll never forget the time Uri, you know...

279
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:55,180
What?

280
00:13:55,180 --> 00:13:56,800
I don't... I bent that spoon.

281
00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:00,440
Are you going to help us, Uri?

282
00:14:04,140 --> 00:14:04,740
We'll see.

283
00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:06,260
We'll see. What does that mean?

284
00:14:07,060 --> 00:14:08,160
To me, that means no.

285
00:14:08,540 --> 00:14:08,820
What?

286
00:14:09,020 --> 00:14:09,880
To me, that means no.

287
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:10,580
No, no, no, no.

288
00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:11,540
I promise you...

289
00:14:11,540 --> 00:14:12,340
Well, say yes, then.

290
00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:13,680
I gave you my word.

291
00:14:13,820 --> 00:14:16,620
I'll bring up your name, and...

292
00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:17,360
You can't...

293
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:17,400
You can't...

294
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:18,800
Bringing it up, isn't it?

295
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:19,800
You don't just bring it up.

296
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,560
You might bring it up and go, avoid this man.

297
00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:22,800
No, no, I won't say that.

298
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,080
I'll say you...

299
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:24,460
I'll...

300
00:14:24,460 --> 00:14:29,240
I'll tell Michael that you're doing a very major documentary, and...

301
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,700
And don't go near it.

302
00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:33,820
I'll tell you, who is Uri?

303
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,920
And I will say, oh, he's a nice young man.

304
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,360
He does all these interesting programs.

305
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:46,880
And then I'll tell him, but I advise you not to do it.

306
00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:49,700
Big mistake.

307
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:51,860
Big mistake.

308
00:14:52,940 --> 00:14:56,000
It seemed pretty clear that Uri was not on our side.

309
00:14:56,340 --> 00:14:58,100
He was on ITV's side.

310
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:02,220
To learn more about Michael, I'd have to go where Michael was,

311
00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:04,400
and that meant Las Vegas.

312
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:19,020
Michael was on holiday,

313
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,860
but he'd been spotted shopping at the Luxor Hotel,

314
00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:26,020
apparently umming and ahhing over the purchase of a golden sarcophagus.

315
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,520
He'd also been seen at the Guinness World of Records Museum.

316
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,980
He looked like he had lipstick on, you know, well, he did, really.

317
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,020
And then, to me, he looked like...

318
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,020
I guess it would be like...

319
00:15:39,020 --> 00:15:40,840
He was very white, no colour on him.

320
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:41,420
Like a ghost.

321
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,380
No colour on him at all, you know, like a ghost.

322
00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:45,600
And he'd apparently been a regular visitor

323
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,360
at his friends Siegfried and Roy's magic show.

324
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:56,500
Progress was slow.

325
00:15:57,020 --> 00:15:58,540
However, we had one lead,

326
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,040
an ultra-fan and impersonator called E. Casanova,

327
00:16:02,260 --> 00:16:04,160
who was performing at a local club.

328
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,560
Ladies and gentlemen, every now and then in life,

329
00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:11,120
you run across something you cannot explain.

330
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,440
Tonight is your night to witness something you cannot explain.

331
00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:15,740
Ladies and gentlemen,

332
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,080
this is the world's,

333
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,280
the world's greatest tribute artist,

334
00:16:19,780 --> 00:16:20,920
the best in the planet.

335
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:22,240
Ladies and gentlemen,

336
00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:24,880
please, please put your hands together

337
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,320
and welcome to the stage,

338
00:16:26,420 --> 00:16:27,140
the legendary,

339
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:28,480
the unforgettable,

340
00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:31,380
E. Casanova.

341
00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:32,060
Give it up!

342
00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:32,900
Please, give it up!

343
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:34,000
Thank you, please.

344
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:37,500
Now,

345
00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:38,180
there's so much

346
00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:38,280
an art

347
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:41,960
in pursuit,

348
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:42,320
there,

349
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,480
and

350
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:44,600
the

351
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,460
fact

352
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:46,600
when we

353
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:46,780
have ridesé,

354
00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:46,840
the

355
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,280
clear food.

356
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:49,740
We're so much

357
00:16:49,740 --> 00:16:50,100
declining,

358
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:50,700
the

359
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:51,040
Aberож deets,

360
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,120
you too much

361
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:52,720
and now,

362
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,240
because we don't have cars

363
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:54,960
on the Recognition.

364
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,320
All right,

365
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,480
there have to be

366
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:21,480
E. Casanova's manager took me backstage.

367
00:17:22,580 --> 00:17:26,120
How are you doing?

368
00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:28,120
I'm Majestic Magnificent.

369
00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:29,120
Say again?

370
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:30,120
Majestic Magnificent.

371
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:31,120
Your name is Majestic Magnificent.

372
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,120
I'm Louis.

373
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:33,120
Louis Theroux.

374
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:38,120
I'm endorsing E. Casanova, the number one tribute artist in the world, E. Casanova,

375
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,120
endorsed by the family and Michael Jackson.

376
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:42,120
Whoa.

377
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:46,120
Majestic with a K magnificent claimed he knew the whole Jackson family,

378
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:51,120
Michael's mum and dad, Catherine and Joe, and all his brothers and sisters.

379
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:53,120
I can call Randy and Jermaine.

380
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:54,120
I can call them all.

381
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,120
They're my friends.

382
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,120
Latoya, you're there?

383
00:17:58,120 --> 00:17:59,120
Pick up.

384
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:00,120
It's Majestic.

385
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:01,120
I need to talk to you.

386
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:02,120
Hello, hello, hello, hello.

387
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,120
Pick up, pick up.

388
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,120
Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello.

389
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,120
Hello, hello, hello, hello.

390
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,120
Pick up, pick up.

391
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,120
All right, give me a call if you get this message.

392
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,120
If he was telling the truth, it seemed that Majestic Magnificent

393
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:22,120
was the Las Vegas answer to Uri Geller, a gatekeeper to the Jacksons.

394
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,120
So maybe we can get something going with Latoya.

395
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:29,120
No, no, she's finicky.

396
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:32,120
I'm telling you, if Latoya do your show,

397
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:35,120
you can never forget about having a chance to do something with Mike.

398
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,120
What about if Catherine did it?

399
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:38,120
That's different.

400
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:39,120
Michael loves his mother.

401
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:40,120
Joseph?

402
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:43,120
I know Joseph is back now.

403
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:44,120
You're lucky.

404
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,120
He's back when he was in China.

405
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,120
He was in China for almost a month.

406
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,120
Do you think that could possibly happen?

407
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:51,120
I don't know.

408
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:52,120
I don't know.

409
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:53,120
I haven't talked to him.

410
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:54,120
I don't know.

411
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:55,120
I don't know.

412
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:56,120
You're really trying to interview some of the Jacksons.

413
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:57,120
That takes preparation.

414
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:58,120
Well, we're preparing.

415
00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:59,120
That's what we're doing now.

416
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:00,120
How are you preparing?

417
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:02,120
Talking to you.

418
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:05,120
You tell us what we need to do, and then we do it.

419
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,120
I can't tell you what you need to do because I haven't talked to them.

420
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,120
Can you tell me where Michael's staying?

421
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,120
Impossible.

422
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:13,120
You know why?

423
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:14,120
You know why?

424
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:15,120
Not authorized.

425
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:16,120
Where is he staying?

426
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:17,120
Can't tell you.

427
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:18,120
Totally impossible.

428
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:19,120
I'm going to tell you a secret.

429
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:33,120
The reason I live in the family's home for nine and a half years is because the whole family

430
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:42,120
trust me, the reason I was offered $200,000 by Hard Copper Inside Edition and turned it down and went to Catherine

431
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,120
Joseph and told them to call.

432
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:58,120
The reason I was offered a million and a half dollars advance to do a book for being with the Jackson 22 years of living in the house and turned it down because Catherine Jackson is a second mother to me.

433
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:03,120
And as long as she's alive, I would never do anything to hurt her.

434
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,120
See, you can't buy integrity.

435
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,120
You can't buy dignity.

436
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:11,120
Your character and your word is more important than money.

437
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,120
I know people of the press and journalists have a hard time to understand that.

438
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:20,120
You remember at the table when I said to you, you're a class act and that you are a great professional?

439
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:22,120
See, you're ruining that now.

440
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:24,120
No, I was only teasing.

441
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,120
I'll tell you why, because we know where he's staying.

442
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,120
Well, if you know where he's staying, why are you asking me?

443
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,120
Because I wanted to see what you'd say.

444
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,120
I'm a realist.

445
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:34,120
I don't lie.

446
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:35,120
I don't bullshit.

447
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:36,120
I'm a realist.

448
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:44,120
Majestic told us that he would put some calls into his Jackson friends and get back to us.

449
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:49,120
A few days later, Majestic called.

450
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:50,120
Give this.

451
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:53,120
This is how I got Michael Jackson's attention.

452
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:54,120
I'm a magician.

453
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,120
I was Muhammad Ali's personal magician.

454
00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:00,120
He introduced me to Michael Jackson because I do magic.

455
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:02,120
Michael loved magic.

456
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,120
And this is how I got to know Michael.

457
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:09,120
That was good, man.

458
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:10,120
That's nothing.

459
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:14,120
Watch.

460
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:15,120
You hold on to it.

461
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:26,120
Michael came into the theater and sit right next to me at the Pantages Theater in Hollywood.

462
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:30,120
And Muhammad Ali told him I was his personal magician.

463
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:31,120
Michael said to me...

464
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:32,120
Is that true?

465
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:33,120
Oh, yes.

466
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:34,120
Yes.

467
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:35,120
Why would he have a personal...

468
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:36,120
Who has a personal magician?

469
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:37,120
It seems like a kind of a weird thing to have.

470
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:38,120
You're not familiar with Muhammad Ali.

471
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,120
Muhammad Ali has been doing magic for 20 years.

472
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:41,120
Muhammad Ali?

473
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,120
Does magic like crazy, yes.

474
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,120
He told Michael Jackson that I did magic.

475
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,120
Michael says to me, you do magic?

476
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:48,120
I said, yeah.

477
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,120
You show me some?

478
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:50,120
I said, yeah.

479
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,120
Went backstage, showed him some magic.

480
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:56,120
And he said, you come over to my house tomorrow at 10.30 and show me some magic.

481
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:57,120
He gave me a number to call.

482
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,120
And I called and went over the next day.

483
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:00,120
And the rest is history.

484
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:03,120
How did it go from that to you living with Michael?

485
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,120
I didn't live with Michael.

486
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:06,120
No.

487
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:07,120
I live in different...

488
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:08,120
I've been in all the homes.

489
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,120
I've kind of like lived with the Jackson family, like, you know.

490
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:12,120
You lived at Havenhurst?

491
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:13,120
I've been in Havenhurst, yes.

492
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:14,120
I've lived there.

493
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:17,120
Joseph let me move in first.

494
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:18,120
Did he?

495
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:19,120
Before Catherine.

496
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:21,120
Into the main house or into kind of an outbuilding?

497
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:22,120
No, not an outbuilding.

498
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:23,120
No, no.

499
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:24,120
I was in the main house.

500
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:25,120
You know, you're trying to...

501
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,120
Don't try to say I was a servant.

502
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:28,120
Don't try to say I was a caretaker.

503
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:29,120
No.

504
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,120
In the main house.

505
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:32,120
That's what reporters do.

506
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:33,120
You see how they try to switch that around?

507
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:34,120
No, no, no, no.

508
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:35,120
Why did you take that a bit?

509
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:36,120
I just have to tell you...

510
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,120
What's that got to do with being a servant, being in an outbuilding?

511
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,120
In a couple of maids and stuff.

512
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:41,120
I'm majestic back there because I'm a magician.

513
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:42,120
No, what's that got to do with...

514
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:43,120
Outhouse?

515
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,120
That's a little bitty house and stuff.

516
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,120
I'm not saying you were in the loo.

517
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:48,120
No.

518
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:49,120
I was in the main house.

519
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:52,120
The answer to that question, I was in the main house.

520
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,120
I took Joe Jackson out to dinner yesterday.

521
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,120
And went to a show called Tickle Me Tuesday.

522
00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:58,120
It's a comedy show.

523
00:22:58,120 --> 00:22:59,120
Tickle Me Tuesday.

524
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:00,120
At the Aladdin Hotel.

525
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:01,120
Correct.

526
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,120
And we went out and stayed out till midnight.

527
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:10,120
And I told him about the BBC, you all.

528
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,120
And wanted to do interviews and everything.

529
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,120
What he thought about it.

530
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,120
And he said to me last night that he would think about it.

531
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,120
If the terms and everything is met, yes.

532
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,120
If the terms and everything is met, yes.

533
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,120
And what is, um...

534
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:25,120
Are you all right?

535
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:26,120
I'm sorry?

536
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:27,120
Are you OK?

537
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:28,120
Cool.

538
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:29,120
Now, cut the camera.

539
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:30,120
That's it.

540
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:32,120
You can't just keep doing that.

541
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,120
It all went a little strange here.

542
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:39,120
Majestic suddenly seemed anxious about any deal he'd have to make on behalf of Joe.

543
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,120
Until the terms be met, it ain't happened.

544
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:42,120
Am I right or wrong?

545
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:43,120
Of course.

546
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:44,120
What terms?

547
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:45,120
What are the terms?

548
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,120
I ain't got nothing to do with that part of it.

549
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,120
I ain't got nothing to do with that fucking part of it.

550
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:49,120
You're a fucking idiot sometimes.

551
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,120
You are a fucking idiot sometimes.

552
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,120
But why do you say I'm a fucking idiot?

553
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:55,120
Huh?

554
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:56,120
Why do you say I'm a fucking idiot?

555
00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,120
Because everybody, you don't know what terms and conditions mean when you're filming somebody like Joe Jackson.

556
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:01,120
I'm just clarifying.

557
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:07,120
Terms and conditions means, in case you're a journalist and you don't know what terms and conditions mean, I'm going to tell you what terms and conditions mean.

558
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,120
But does that make me a fucking idiot?

559
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:12,120
Yeah, because you should know that you're a professional.

560
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:17,120
Several phone calls later and at least part of the terms and conditions were now agreed.

561
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,120
Namely, the fee.

562
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:24,120
$5,000 in cash for Joe and a $500 bonus for Majestic.

563
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:30,120
It wasn't Michael, but it might get me closer to Michael, so I thought it was worth a shot.

564
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:43,120
The agreement was that we would only hand over the cash when or if Joe turned up, but it wasn't clear what our $5,000 would get us.

565
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:47,120
There was one more meeting with Majestic.

566
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:48,120
Good enough?

567
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:49,120
Good enough.

568
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:57,120
We still had no hard evidence that Majestic could make any of this happen, or even that he really knew the Jacksons at all.

569
00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,120
I think he's here, ma'am.

570
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:00,120
Is he here?

571
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:01,120
Yep.

572
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:02,120
Hey!

573
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:03,120
Hey!

574
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:20,120
How are you doing this morning?

575
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:21,120
Good afternoon.

576
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:22,120
Good afternoon.

577
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:23,120
It's morning for me.

578
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:24,120
Long night.

579
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:26,120
What were you up to last night?

580
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:28,120
This and that and a little bit of the other.

581
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:33,120
We're going to meet Mr. Jackson tomorrow at 11 o'clock p.m. at the Golden Nugget.

582
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,120
We're going to look at a couple of his acts.

583
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:38,120
Now, 11 seems a little late, doesn't it?

584
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:39,120
No.

585
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:40,120
No?

586
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:41,120
No.

587
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:42,120
Is there any way it could be earlier?

588
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,120
What?

589
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:44,120
The meeting.

590
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:45,120
No.

591
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:46,120
No, you're getting...

592
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:47,120
Absolutely not.

593
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:49,120
I said two hours.

594
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,120
Mr. Jackson, it's supposed to be an hour and a half.

595
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,120
Because the terms that was met was pathetic.

596
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,120
So you're getting lucky to get that.

597
00:25:58,120 --> 00:25:59,120
This is really beneath him.

598
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:02,120
And I got to tell him one thing.

599
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:03,120
I got to tell him about the camera.

600
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:04,120
Because he doesn't know.

601
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:06,120
He ain't going to understand this.

602
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,120
He's not going to understand this.

603
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,120
You're starting off bad with that little home camera there.

604
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,120
You're starting off bad with that little bitty camera.

605
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:13,120
It's a little bit of tiny.

606
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:14,120
It looks like a toy camera, man.

607
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:15,120
Mm-hmm.

608
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:16,120
Look at the little camera.

609
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:17,120
The camera looks like a little bit of...

610
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:21,120
Something you go to Radio Shack or Walmart or something just by and walk around with.

611
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:23,120
It's broadcast quality, though.

612
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:24,120
Tuck your shirt inside.

613
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:25,120
Tuck the shirt inside.

614
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:26,120
Yeah, that'll be fine.

615
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:27,120
Yeah.

616
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:29,120
I mean, look...

617
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:32,120
Look like a journalist.

618
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,120
Look like a professional journalist.

619
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:35,120
The glasses work.

620
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:37,120
Ain't nothing wrong with what you have on.

621
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,120
It's just not the kind of people the Jacksons are used to interviewing them.

622
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,120
Don't mess up the interview.

623
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,120
Don't mess up the interview tomorrow.

624
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,120
That's heavy.

625
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,120
Friday night at the Golden Nugget.

626
00:26:56,120 --> 00:27:00,120
In an effort to think positive, I booked a room for the interview.

627
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:03,120
How's that? Better.

628
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:05,120
I'd been doing some reading about Joe.

629
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:10,120
It had been his idea to put the Jackson Five together when Michael was only six years old.

630
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:18,120
Joe had been their manager and all the Jackson boys had said in interviews that he was strict to the point of being brutal.

631
00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:25,120
Well, I'm just going to say we're making a documentary about Michael.

632
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:26,120
He knows that.

633
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:30,120
And, um, who he is and what makes him tick.

634
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,120
And I think that's all right.

635
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:45,120
Um, the only iffy question is how far to go along this sort of eccentric line.

636
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:50,120
Uh, and also about Joe's being an abusive father, which is a little bit dicey.

637
00:27:50,120 --> 00:28:12,120
We waited and we waited.

638
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:13,120
Oh, I see him.

639
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:14,120
I think I see him.

640
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:15,120
Hello there.

641
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,120
Nice to see you, majestic.

642
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:19,120
How do you do?

643
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:20,120
How do you do?

644
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:21,120
How you doing?

645
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,120
Louis Theroux, BBC Television.

646
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:23,120
Very pleased to meet you.

647
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,120
Thank you very much for, uh, spending some time for us.

648
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:26,120
How do you do?

649
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:27,120
Louis Theroux, BBC Television.

650
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:28,120
He works with Mr. Jackson.

651
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:29,120
This is me.

652
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:30,120
This is me.

653
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:31,120
This is me.

654
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:32,120
This is me, Jack.

655
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:33,120
This is me.

656
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:34,120
This is me.

657
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:35,120
This is me.

658
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:36,120
Louis Theroux of BBC Television.

659
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:37,120
Very pleased to meet you.

660
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:38,120
This is John.

661
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,120
Thank you very much for, uh, spending some time for us.

662
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,120
How do you do?

663
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,120
Louis Theroux of BBC Television.

664
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,120
He works with Mr. Jackson.

665
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,120
This is me.

666
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,120
This is Will Yap, my cameraman and director.

667
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120
Don't be deceived by the tiny little camera.

668
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,120
How are you doing?

669
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:51,120
We are a professional.

670
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,120
We are a professional operation.

671
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,120
How are you doing, man?

672
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,120
How are you doing?

673
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,120
And it's...

674
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,120
I'm checking this camera.

675
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,120
Yeah, it's broadcast quality.

676
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,120
It's broadcast quality, there's nothing to worry about.

677
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,120
Majestic and Will went into another room to sort out the money,

678
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,120
and once we'd paid, the interview could start.

679
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,120
Joe, can I call you Joe?

680
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,120
Would that be all right? I don't want to be over-familiar.

681
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,120
And I'm Louis.

682
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,120
Louis?

683
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,120
Louis.

684
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,120
What do you think it is that sets Michael apart from his brothers and sisters?

685
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,120
In what way you're speaking.

686
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,120
Young Eric, that's right.

687
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,120
Well, you know, it's life and a busy...

688
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,120
Mr Jackson Shaw, hold on.

689
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,120
Who's calling, please?

690
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,120
Amir?

691
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,120
It's Amir?

692
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,120
Yeah.

693
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,120
Would you like to speak to him?

694
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,120
Majestic had mentioned that Joe wanted to push a couple of the acts

695
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,120
he was managing at the time, and sure enough,

696
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,120
a tribute band called The Front Page duly arrived.

697
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,120
Joe was keen for them to get publicity,

698
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,120
and although I was keen to talk to Joe alone,

699
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,120
I didn't seem to have a choice.

700
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,120
And they're a family just like the original Jacksons.

701
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,120
They love each other.

702
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,120
Yes, we do.

703
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,120
So it counts.

704
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,120
Hmm.

705
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,120
We do.

706
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,120
Here, I'll get it.

707
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,120
You'll get it.

708
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,120
Because I think I left a sign for it.

709
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,120
Oh.

710
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,120
Come on in.

711
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,120
And then Crystal with a K arrived,

712
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,120
a 17-year-old singer, also managed by Joe,

713
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,120
with her mother, Cynthia.

714
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,120
How do you do?

715
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:35,120
Louis Theroux, BBC Television.

716
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,120
Nice to meet you.

717
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,120
Cynthia, nice to meet you, BBC Television.

718
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,120
Louis Theroux.

719
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,120
By the time I'd finished interviewing Crystal and The Front Page,

720
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,120
I only had five minutes to talk to Joe before he left.

721
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,120
I was starting to panic,

722
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,120
and the panic was leading to confusion.

723
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,120
I want to put something to you,

724
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,120
which is that it seems to me...

725
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,120
I don't know Michael that way, but that...

726
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,120
Because he's so much in the public eye,

727
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,120
he has very little left for himself.

728
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,120
What?

729
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,120
That he has... Michael.

730
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,120
I'm talking about Michael now.

731
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,120
What about him?

732
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,120
That he has...

733
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:12,120
He's so much in the public eye,

734
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,120
he has very little left for himself.

735
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,120
I don't just mean in terms of privacy.

736
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,120
Do you know what I mean?

737
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,120
I mean in terms of,

738
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,120
it must be difficult for him,

739
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,120
having always been in the public eye.

740
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,120
What's the question?

741
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,120
What is the question?

742
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,120
Yeah, for him to answer.

743
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,120
That's what...

744
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,120
Yeah, I'm trying to freestyle.

745
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,120
I'm trying to freestyle.

746
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,120
Freestyle.

747
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,120
Sorry.

748
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:36,120
Sorry.

749
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,120
You get in front, man.

750
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,120
Okay.

751
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:39,120
Okay.

752
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,120
Oh, sorry.

753
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,120
There we go.

754
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,120
Sorry.

755
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,120
Okay.

756
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,120
Let's go.

757
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,120
Um...

758
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,120
Where were we?

759
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,120
Do you have any advice for me

760
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,120
as far as pursuing my journey towards Michael?

761
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,120
I'm telling him that you had an interview with me

762
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,120
because I think I don't know it anyway,

763
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,120
you know,

764
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,120
because he keeps up with everything, you know.

765
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,120
He's going to know that we spoke to you.

766
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,120
Oh, yes.

767
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,120
Do you think that will help our chances of seeing him?

768
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,120
Yes.

769
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,120
It's a help.

770
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:00,120
Yeah.

771
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,120
Take care, buddy.

772
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,120
All right.

773
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:03,120
See you later.

774
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,120
Thank you.

775
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,120
Thank you, John.

776
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,120
Thank you.

777
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:07,120
Thank you, John.

778
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,120
All the questions for Joe were still safely tucked away in my pocket.

779
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,120
The $5,000 was safely tucked away in Joe's.

780
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,120
The $5,000 was safely tucked away in Joe's.

781
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,120
Welcome and bienvenue.

782
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,120
Welcome.

783
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,120
Welcome.

784
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,120
Welcome.

785
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,120
Welcome.

786
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,120
Berlin.

787
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,120
January 2011.

788
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,120
All the questions for Joe were still safely tucked away in my pocket.

789
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,120
The $5,000 was safely tucked away in Joe's.

790
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,120
Welcome and bienvenue.

791
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,120
Welcome.

792
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:30,120
Welcome.

793
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:31,120
Welcome.

794
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,120
Berlin, January 2003.

795
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,120
And Michael was in town to collect an award.

796
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:43,120
Only hours earlier, Michael, encouraged by his fans outside his hotel, had taken the

797
00:32:43,120 --> 00:33:04,120
decision to dangle a baby, possibly his own, out of his third floor window. To be honest,

798
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,120
we arrived late and missed that. Martin Bashir, on the other hand, had been spotted inside

799
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,120
the hotel, inside Michael's room.

800
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:20,120
You can't blame, I know, I don't want to be, like, fucking pious about it, but who wouldn't

801
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,120
be, like, you can't blame him for, like, getting access.

802
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,120
No, no, no, I'm just sour grapes.

803
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,120
It's just totally bitter.

804
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,120
Oh, yeah.

805
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:27,120
There's something brilliant we're missing over there.

806
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,120
Look.

807
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,120
All the lights are going off.

808
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,120
Flash photos.

809
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:33,120
Where are we?

810
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,120
We're on our way is where we are.

811
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,120
Yeah?

812
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,120
Yeah.

813
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:52,120
Look at the people, he's doing nuts.

814
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,120
Yeah.

815
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:59,120
As we pulled up outside his hotel, Michael seemed to spot the light on our camera and cut

816
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:05,120
short a sing-along he'd been having with his fans.

817
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,120
He saw you on your left.

818
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,120
He pointed at you, he pointed at your car.

819
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:08,120
Fuck the press, no, go away.

820
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:15,120
To make a better day, just you and me.

821
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:42,120
The next day, and Michael's baby dangling was big news.

822
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:47,120
Michael Jackson has admitted that he made a terrible mistake when he dangled his nine-month-old

823
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,120
baby over the fifth-floor balcony of a Berlin hotel.

824
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaking for Michael was Uri Geller.

825
00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:02,120
They almost forced him to, with love, with passion, Michael, Michael, Michael, show us

826
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:03,120
the baby.

827
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:08,120
And it was a decision, a split-second decision, a bad one, a mistake.

828
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,120
Michael!

829
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,120
Michael!

830
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,120
Michael!

831
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,120
Back at the hotel, and with Michael due to leave the following morning, I was running

832
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,120
out of options.

833
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,120
Is there any chance of getting a photo with Michael, do you think?

834
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:21,120
I don't believe so tonight.

835
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,120
OK.

836
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,120
You know, and I can, you know, if I promise something like that and it doesn't come through,

837
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,120
then I'm a bad guy.

838
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,120
Yeah.

839
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,120
We'll do what we can.

840
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,120
We try, we really try, we always try.

841
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,120
OK.

842
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,120
And if he doesn't get mobbed, he has more time to see more people.

843
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,120
But when it starts closing in on him, then we gotta get him out.

844
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,120
Yeah.

845
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:39,120
We will try.

846
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,120
Thank you.

847
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,120
No problem.

848
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,120
It had been another frustrating couple of days.

849
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,120
But back in England, a breakthrough.

850
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,120
Michael's friend, Terry George, agreed to an interview at his house in the countryside near

851
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,120
Leeds.

852
00:35:54,120 --> 00:36:01,120
Terry had been friends with Michael as a teenager in the early 80s.

853
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,120
Armed with a cassette recorder that his parents had bought him, Terry would attempt to interview

854
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,120
any celebrities staying in Leeds.

855
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:13,120
I'd gone along, knocked on the door of the hotel, the hotel room, and Michael answered the

856
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,120
door.

857
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,120
There was no security around, nobody stopping me really.

858
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,120
And I just said, hi, I'm Terry, can I do an interview with you?

859
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,120
And he was, like, quite taken back by that.

860
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,120
He invited me into his room.

861
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,120
He was there with his brother, Randy Jackson.

862
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,120
And I did an interview with both of them.

863
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,120
That was, like, all the autographs off all the brothers.

864
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,120
Randy, Tito, well, that's Jackie, Marlon, Michael.

865
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:42,120
And that's Michael probably one of the few years in which he was basically fully grown

866
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,120
but hadn't had any plastic surgery at all.

867
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,120
Yeah.

868
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,120
He, um, that's exactly as he looked.

869
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:49,120
Really?

870
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:50,120
Yeah.

871
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,120
He looked exactly like that.

872
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,120
You know, with the afro hair and, um, the wide nose and so on.

873
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,120
Yeah, so, but he was very, very friendly, fantastic, got on very well with him.

874
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,120
Um, and swapped addresses and telephone numbers.

875
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,120
And he rang me just the day after, actually, after he'd left Leeds.

876
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,120
I'd met quite a lot of celebrities before.

877
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:10,120
None of them had given me telephone numbers.

878
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,120
Michael just freely gave it me.

879
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,120
Um, but we did get on very well at the time.

880
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,120
You know, it almost felt like I'd known him for a long, long time.

881
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,120
You know, it was very comfortable to be with.

882
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,120
Um, very easy going.

883
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,120
Terry had kept the original cassette of his interview with Michael.

884
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,120
But the only tape player he had was in his car.

885
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:42,120
Here I am in the Dragon Arrow Hotel Leeds and, um, I'm in the Jackson 5's room.

886
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,120
And I've just asked him for an interview.

887
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,120
Just asked Michael.

888
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,120
And he says it's okay for a few minutes.

889
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,120
Uh, just to prove it is him, I'll start off asking his name.

890
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:57,120
And the date is the 19th of February, 1979.

891
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,120
There you go, 1979.

892
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,120
Uh, what is your name?

893
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,120
Michael Jackson.

894
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,120
And what is your job?

895
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,120
I'm a singer.

896
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,120
Who thought of the name Jackson 5?

897
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,120
A little fat wobbly lady who lived in the neighborhood.

898
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,120
She liked us a lot.

899
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,120
And we were trying to think of a name for the group.

900
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,120
She said, hey, how about the Jackson 5?

901
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,120
What is your favorite bands?

902
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,120
Earth, Wind & Fire.

903
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,120
Some of the old...

904
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,120
I like wings.

905
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:30,120
Wangs.

906
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,120
Wangs.

907
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,120
Wangs and things.

908
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,120
What about the Bee Gees?

909
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,120
Oh yeah, I forgot about them.

910
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,120
I like the Bee Gees.

911
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,120
Oh, you can tell by the way I use what I want.

912
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,120
I'm tired of talking.

913
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,120
I forgot the words up here.

914
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,120
Yeah, sir.

915
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,120
Um, what do you like most?

916
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,120
Things that you like?

917
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,120
I like kids a lot.

918
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,120
I have a lot of nephews and nieces.

919
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,120
I like fish.

920
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:09,120
It's strange how he jumps from one to the other, isn't it?

921
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,120
Thank you very much.

922
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,120
OK, Terry, tell your brothers and sisters hi.

923
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,120
Yes, me too.

924
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:17,120
That's amazing.

925
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,120
How do you feel listening to it?

926
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,120
Quite emotional, really.

927
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,120
I haven't heard it for a long, long time.

928
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,120
Although I seem to know it word for word pretty much what he's going to say.

929
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,120
After their interview, Terry and Michael began a phone friendship

930
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:35,120
until Terry notched up a £300 phone bill and got his parents' phone cut off.

931
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:44,120
But in 1993, two papers ran the story that Michael had been masturbating during one of their phone calls.

932
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:49,120
Now, it's been in the papers that Michael made an inappropriate phone call to you.

933
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,120
And did that... Can you tell us what happened there?

934
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,120
I don't really want to talk about what was printed in the papers.

935
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,120
I mean, that was well documented.

936
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,120
It came out really without my authority.

937
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:07,120
I didn't... It developed from somebody who had a bit of a big mouth, basically.

938
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,120
One of my close friends who knew about the story.

939
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,120
I mean, can you say whether it's true?

940
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,120
Parts of it are true, yeah.

941
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,120
Parts of the story are true.

942
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,120
I mean, I would say the majority of it is true.

943
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,120
But papers get their bit and they twist it

944
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,120
and they make things a bit sensationalised, really.

945
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,120
It's not really something that I want to regurgitate, really.

946
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,120
You know, it's well documented in the papers.

947
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,120
Anybody who read it at that time, you know,

948
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,120
will have seen what was said and how the conversations went.

949
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,120
But we had several conversations, you know.

950
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,120
We'd sing to each other on the telephone.

951
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,120
We'd talk about his family, my family.

952
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,120
You know, there's lots of things that we spoke about.

953
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,120
It's quite unfortunate, really,

954
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,120
that somebody who wants to focus on a, you know,

955
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,120
a ten-second part of a conversation,

956
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,120
well, three-minute part of a conversation,

957
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,120
you know, of many telephone hours.

958
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,120
We're talking like hours on the telephone with each other.

959
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,120
So you don't feel any grudge against him about that?

960
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,120
Or any feeling that he acted wrongly?

961
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:08,120
I don't feel any grudge against Michael at all, no.

962
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,120
I, you know, it's a shame that we don't have our friendship still,

963
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,120
that we're not in contact on a regular basis.

964
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,120
I mean, perhaps, who knows, one day that we will still be friends.

965
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,120
We will bump into each other or meet each other again

966
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,120
and, you know, continue his friendship where we left off, I suppose.

967
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:33,120
I was now many months into my journey,

968
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,120
but I was still dwelling on my encounter with Joe Jackson.

969
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,120
I'd come to believe that he was the key to understanding Michael.

970
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,120
I wanted another chance to speak to him

971
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,120
and the road back to Joe started with a magician in Las Vegas.

972
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,120
Hey, Joe, Majestic calling.

973
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,120
Listen, I don't know if you're probably in the studio or whatever,

974
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,120
listen, give me a call back.

975
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,120
I'm here with the BBC, the good BBC.

976
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,120
Majestic and I caught up with Joe in a shopping mall in New Jersey

977
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,120
where he was associate producer on a low-budget film

978
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,120
called Destination Fame.

979
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,120
Are you guys going to sing?

980
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:11,120
Yes, we're going to sing.

981
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:12,120
Oh, yeah?

982
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,120
Are you going to move?

983
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,120
Yes, we're going to move it.

984
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,120
We're going to shake it.

985
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,120
We're going to...

986
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,120
You know I got to watch.

987
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:21,120
All right.

988
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,120
Yeah.

989
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:23,120
All right.

990
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:24,120
All right.

991
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,120
We're going to rehearse for a little while.

992
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,120
Yeah, OK.

993
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,120
OK.

994
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:39,120
The plan was to interview Joe back at his hotel

995
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,120
once filming had been completed for the day.

996
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,120
It was two in the morning before we got started.

997
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,120
I was tired and so was he.

998
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,120
Michael has said that he's so nervous of you to this day

999
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,120
that when he sees you, or when he's about to see you,

1000
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,120
he regurgitates.

1001
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,120
Yeah.

1002
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,120
All the way towards Joe.

1003
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,120
He regurgitates all the way to the bank.

1004
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,120
That's right.

1005
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,120
Bailey.

1006
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:18,120
You really...

1007
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,120
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that.

1008
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,120
You can't really...

1009
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,120
I mean, do you say you don't really believe that he does,

1010
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,120
or that you don't really care?

1011
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,120
Yeah.

1012
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,120
Do I really care?

1013
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,120
Yeah.

1014
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,120
I really don't.

1015
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,120
Michael's on record as saying that you beat him

1016
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,120
with switches and belts.

1017
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,120
I never beat him.

1018
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,120
I whipped him with a switch and a belt.

1019
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:39,120
I never beat him.

1020
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,120
You beat somebody with a stick.

1021
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,120
When you look at Michael now,

1022
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,120
and in particular when you look at his nose,

1023
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,120
what do you think?

1024
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,120
I don't think anything.

1025
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,120
That's what he wanted.

1026
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,120
That's what he did.

1027
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,120
It's up to him.

1028
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,120
You think it looks good?

1029
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,120
If it's good to him,

1030
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,120
if it's good for him,

1031
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,120
if it's good for me,

1032
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,120
it's whatever you want.

1033
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,120
Look, let me...

1034
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,120
You're going for the jugular.

1035
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,120
No, but see, I'm here.

1036
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:15,120
I would get up and walk out

1037
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,120
if I had to talk about Michael's nose on the BBC.

1038
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,120
Right.

1039
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,120
I'm not going to do that,

1040
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,120
because he wouldn't like that.

1041
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:22,120
Don't ask that question again.

1042
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:23,120
You can't.

1043
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,120
I'm not questioning his right to do what he wants.

1044
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,120
Yeah, but this is going to be out,

1045
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,120
and he will not like for me to talk about his nose.

1046
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:32,120
I'm telling him,

1047
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,120
if you don't want to interview the airman,

1048
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,120
stay away from him.

1049
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:36,120
That's good if you're going to end,

1050
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:37,120
in case you take a hand.

1051
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:38,120
Why?

1052
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:39,120
Why is that?

1053
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:40,120
Why in that particular subject?

1054
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,120
I'm not going to make him mad.

1055
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:42,120
Stop.

1056
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,120
I'm not going to make him mad

1057
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,120
over something I'm sitting here

1058
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,120
talking to the BBC about.

1059
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,120
He don't want me to do that.

1060
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,120
Well, let me ask generally then,

1061
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,120
do you think that he...

1062
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,120
Do you think that maybe because he...

1063
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,120
was a child star that he's...

1064
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:00,120
What I should be talking to you about,

1065
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,120
y'all should stop calling him Jacko Wacko

1066
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,120
and all that stuff.

1067
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,120
You all started that.

1068
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,120
So did Owen.

1069
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,120
You started that in America.

1070
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,120
And when somebody's wacko,

1071
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:10,120
they call him,

1072
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:11,120
they think he's crazy.

1073
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,120
Jacko Wacko.

1074
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,120
Nah.

1075
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:17,120
Well, a lot of people,

1076
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,120
a lot of people think Michael is crazy.

1077
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,120
I don't think so.

1078
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,120
You're very smart.

1079
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,120
I mean,

1080
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,120
Michael is widely regarded

1081
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,120
as probably the most eccentric person

1082
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,120
on the planet.

1083
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,120
that can't be news to you,

1084
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:32,120
is it?

1085
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,120
Well,

1086
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:37,120
whatever.

1087
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,120
Would you like to see Michael

1088
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,120
settle down with a partner?

1089
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,120
I was a partner.

1090
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,120
A loved one.

1091
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:49,120
What are you trying...

1092
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,120
A wife, you saying?

1093
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,120
A boyfriend or a girlfriend.

1094
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,120
A what?

1095
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:54,120
What'd you say?

1096
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,120
A boyfriend or girlfriend.

1097
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,120
What are you trying to say,

1098
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,120
Michael gay now?

1099
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,120
What would Michael say?

1100
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,120
Why would you use...

1101
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,120
Just start.

1102
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,120
Turn the camera off.

1103
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:05,120
Now.

1104
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:06,120
Turn the camera off.

1105
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,120
Turn the camera off.

1106
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:08,120
Turn the camera off.

1107
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,120
Turn the camera off.

1108
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,120
Turn the camera off.

1109
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,120
Or the interview's gonna be over

1110
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,120
and I'll let you cut it back on.

1111
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:13,120
We can continue.

1112
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:14,120
Turn the camera off.

1113
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:15,120
Wait, this isn't your interview,

1114
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,120
Majestic.

1115
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,120
It's Joe's interview.

1116
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,120
I don't care.

1117
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,120
That's why I'm here, though.

1118
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:20,120
What do you say, Joe?

1119
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,120
Hey, hey, hey, Lloyd.

1120
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:23,120
Lloyd.

1121
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,120
You asked me the wrong question.

1122
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:26,120
Lloyd, Lloyd.

1123
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,120
We have to talk about this.

1124
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:28,120
That's the conversation

1125
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,120
that we can have, Majestic.

1126
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,120
I don't know this is gonna be

1127
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:32,120
talked about Michael.

1128
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,120
Exactly.

1129
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,120
Exactly.

1130
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:35,120
I would never give you

1131
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,120
a chance to do this.

1132
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:37,120
Never.

1133
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,120
This is Michael's father

1134
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,120
and you gonna sit there

1135
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,120
and say you have a boyfriend?

1136
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,120
How more disrespectful can you be?

1137
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,120
Or girlfriend.

1138
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,120
You should've just said

1139
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,120
girlfriend or wife.

1140
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,120
That's an insult to Mr. Jackson.

1141
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,120
He lets you come in.

1142
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,120
Why is that an insult?

1143
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,120
Because we don't believe in gays.

1144
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,120
I can't stand them.

1145
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:58,120
Me either.

1146
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,120
And you're trying to say

1147
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,120
that Michael should have a boyfriend

1148
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,120
and gay.

1149
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,120
That's an insult.

1150
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:08,120
I'm so glad Kate ain't here.

1151
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,120
Yeah.

1152
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,120
Catherine,

1153
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,120
I'm gonna really get on here about that.

1154
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,120
You sit there and say

1155
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,120
Michael have a boyfriend

1156
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,120
to his father.

1157
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:20,120
You don't think that's an insult.

1158
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,120
Or girlfriend.

1159
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,120
But why could he be girlfriend?

1160
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,120
But why could he be girlfriend?

1161
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:24,120
You didn't say it.

1162
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:25,120
You said boyfriend.

1163
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:26,120
I said boyfriend or girlfriend.

1164
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,120
Where does he need a boyfriend from?

1165
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,120
When I...

1166
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,120
Are you trying to...

1167
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,120
Are you seeing having a girlfriend,

1168
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,120
a boyfriend as a girlfriend?

1169
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:35,120
No.

1170
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,120
I said,

1171
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,120
I don't know what Michael's romantic interests are.

1172
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,120
I don't know which way he goes.

1173
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:41,120
Now certainly I'm telling you right now,

1174
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:42,120
it's not with no boys.

1175
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,120
Okay?

1176
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:44,120
It's not that.

1177
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:45,120
Anyway, my Jesse.

1178
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,120
I'm gonna have to end this.

1179
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,120
Huh?

1180
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,120
I'm gonna have to end this.

1181
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,120
See?

1182
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,120
I told you.

1183
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,120
Because you know,

1184
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,120
I'm not gonna make Michael mad at me

1185
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,120
by talking...

1186
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:54,120
I understand this.

1187
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,120
I tried to warn you.

1188
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:56,120
But let's talk about something else.

1189
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:57,120
I tried to warn you.

1190
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,120
And you wouldn't stop, man.

1191
00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,120
You just wouldn't stop.

1192
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:00,120
I tried to tell you.

1193
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:01,120
It's over.

1194
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:02,120
The only reason I said boyfriend or girlfriend

1195
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:03,120
was because I said partner.

1196
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:04,120
And Joe said,

1197
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:05,120
what do you mean by partner?

1198
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,120
And I was explaining what that means.

1199
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,120
I don't understand, you know.

1200
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,120
Let me rephrase it.

1201
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,120
Would you like to see Michael

1202
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,120
in a steady relationship?

1203
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,120
I don't understand.

1204
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,120
I don't know.

1205
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,120
I don't know.

1206
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,120
I don't know.

1207
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:21,120
I don't know.

1208
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,120
I don't know.

1209
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:23,120
I don't know.

1210
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,120
I don't know.

1211
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,120
I don't know.

1212
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:26,120
I don't know.

1213
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:27,120
I don't know.

1214
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:28,120
I don't know.

1215
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,120
I don't know.

1216
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:35,120
If you were referring to as a wife or with a wife,

1217
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:41,120
a lady wife, that's up to him, what he wants to do.

1218
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,120
If he's happy back here, that's fine.

1219
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,120
If he wants to be with a lady woman, that's fine with me.

1220
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,120
Whatever he wants is fine with me.

1221
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,120
Well, except a boyfriend, apparently.

1222
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:55,120
Yeah.

1223
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:56,120
That ain't going to happen.

1224
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,120
Michael is not gay.

1225
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,720
So, you have to be gay to have a boyfriend.

1226
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,560
I'm telling you, Michael is not gay.

1227
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,960
That's right. That is not going to happen.

1228
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,360
Well, we're through. We're through. We're through.

1229
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,560
We're through. We're through. That's it.

1230
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,040
I just want to understand, Michael...

1231
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,120
It had been a deeply strange interview, but I thought a revealing one.

1232
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,280
I couldn't help thinking what it must have been like for Michael

1233
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,560
growing up with Joe as his father.

1234
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:34,480
In February 2003, Martin Bashir's film about Michael Jackson

1235
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,800
was watched by 14 million people in the UK and 27 million in the US.

1236
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,840
The press was almost universally hostile to Michael,

1237
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,040
tending to focus on his admission that he shares his bedroom with children.

1238
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,640
Fans rallied to Michael and went on the counterattack.

1239
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,280
But for me, it was the end of the road.

1240
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:57,800
Good to see you.

1241
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:04,160
As a footnote to the whole affair, I wondered where all of this left the original fixer of Martin Bashir's interview,

1242
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:05,360
Gary Geller.

1243
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,600
Because you fixed up that Martin Bashir program, and how did you feel about it?

1244
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,520
I saw you on TV talking about it.

1245
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,680
Well, I felt betrayed.

1246
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:17,880
Has it made life difficult for you and Michael?

1247
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,880
I mean, has it spoiled your relationship with Michael?

1248
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:21,800
I think so.

1249
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:34,640
I do think so, because probably Michael thinks that I betrayed him, but I think I believe that time will heal.

1250
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:36,160
So you made a mistake?

1251
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:45,480
I think I made a mistake of taking Martin Bashir to Michael Jackson.

1252
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,360
Have you spoken to Michael since that documentary went out?

1253
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:49,360
One time.

1254
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:50,360
One time.

1255
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:51,360
What was that?

1256
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,360
It was very short.

1257
00:50:52,360 --> 00:51:00,560
It's not for the camera, and I have not spoken to him since that call.

1258
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:01,560
When was that?

1259
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,560
I won't talk about that either.

1260
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:04,880
Well, you just mentioned it.

1261
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,820
Yeah, I did, but I won't put a time frame to that call.

1262
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:12,940
Was it regarding the Martin Bashir?

1263
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:13,800
Yeah, it was.

1264
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,700
And it was just expressing his disappointment.

1265
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:25,620
And I won't say what he said, but I said to him that I was terribly sorry that it happened.

1266
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:27,760
Would you like to apologise to me?

1267
00:51:28,420 --> 00:51:29,020
For what?

1268
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,400
Well, for choosing Martin over me, because there was a fork in the road.

1269
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,600
One road was Martin, and one was me.

1270
00:51:35,660 --> 00:51:37,620
No, there was also Sir David Frost.

1271
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:45,680
I'm actually sorry that I didn't introduce David Frost to Michael Jackson.

1272
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,300
Why are you smiling?

1273
00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:50,160
Let's walk, come on.

1274
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,000
No, because I'm giving you a chance to apologise and you're not taking it.

1275
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,980
Because I don't think I should apologise to you.

1276
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:03,620
Read my mind.

1277
00:52:04,660 --> 00:52:09,540
What did you think of the Michael Jackson that was exposed in the documentary?

1278
00:52:09,540 --> 00:52:15,900
I think it was a mistake to tell the camera that he sleeps with kids, or I think it was

1279
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:17,880
also a mistake to hold that kid's hand.

1280
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,120
But you see, Michael is so very pure in his thoughts towards children.

1281
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:23,360
Do you think it would be a mistake?

1282
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,520
And towards his love towards children, which is totally non-sexual.

1283
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:34,120
Would it be a mistake on his part to sleep with the children?

1284
00:52:35,460 --> 00:52:36,160
I think so.

1285
00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:37,560
I think so.

1286
00:52:37,620 --> 00:52:39,380
As a father, I'm speaking as his father.

1287
00:52:39,380 --> 00:52:44,460
Yeah, I would think twice in sending my kids into anyone's bed.

1288
00:52:45,340 --> 00:52:45,780
Absolutely.

1289
00:52:46,220 --> 00:52:46,800
Even Michael?

1290
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:48,640
Even Michael, yeah.

1291
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,920
It seems to me that you've used him a little bit, you know, to generate some publicity,

1292
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,840
which I think is understandable and I think fine.

1293
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,500
But I just wonder whether you have any regrets about doing that.

1294
00:53:00,500 --> 00:53:08,220
When you say that I used him to generate publicity, that is not true.

1295
00:53:08,500 --> 00:53:10,020
That is absolutely wrong.

1296
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,480
It was great to have him as a friend.

1297
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,120
And probably he thinks he thought the same, you know, when we were friends.

1298
00:53:18,060 --> 00:53:19,700
And what do you think he thinks now?

1299
00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:24,980
Well, I don't know what he thinks now, but I will probably know sooner or later.

1300
00:53:24,980 --> 00:53:30,640
Again, there's no doubt in my mind that we are going to be together again.

1301
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:46,860
I never met Michael Jackson, which is a shame because after my long journey through his world,

1302
00:53:47,260 --> 00:53:49,360
I now had more questions to ask him than ever.

1303
00:53:50,380 --> 00:53:51,780
I'd still like to meet him.

1304
00:53:51,780 --> 00:53:57,940
So, if you're watching this, Michael, please feel free to contact me, care of the BBC, any time.

1305
00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:02,880
Yours sincerely, Louis Theroux, Smiley Face.

1306
00:54:15,220 --> 00:54:17,680
What is your favourite place you like touring?

1307
00:54:18,980 --> 00:54:19,980
The UK.

1308
00:54:19,980 --> 00:54:23,020
What has been your biggest problem in show business?

1309
00:54:27,220 --> 00:54:29,580
It's a good question, but it's hard to answer.

1310
00:54:31,700 --> 00:54:33,140
Well, I wouldn't know what to say.

1311
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:37,240
Have you ever had the crowd booing at you?

1312
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:38,700
No, never.

1313
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:39,440
Ever.

1314
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:40,440
Never, ever.

1315
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:42,560
Honestly, never happened.

1316
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,240
How would you feel if they did?

1317
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,760
Um, I would say, what are you booing at?

1318
00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:53,000
And whatever they would say, I would ask them why.