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Are you a pedophile?

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Well, that's a very controversial subject as far as identifying people.

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If I say that I am, it suggests that I still have the interest, that I still am practicing that.

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If I say ex-pedophile, then of course that means that somebody who has done it at one time had that interest and no longer does.

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And that's what I classify myself as.

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You know, with everything in society telling you that this is abhorrent behavior,

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did that not affect your thinking at all?

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I mean, you must have known that was a huge...

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I knew that it was looked down upon. As far as the legal aspect, I didn't know what the law specifically said.

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Do you understand that there's people out there, people who would watch this program

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and hear that you had molested the six-year-old, the seven-year-old,

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and there's a large number of people who would want to kill you for that?

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Yes, I believe there are. I don't want to judge those people, but one wrong or two wrongs don't make a right.

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This is Coalinga, a mental hospital in California built to contain and treat the state's most serious sex offenders.

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What was your original conviction for?

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I was committed for looting lascivious acts on two minor children, females, ages 10 and 12.

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These men all served prison time for child molestation and rape.

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But since completing their sentences, instead of being released,

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they've been diagnosed with sexual disorders and sent here against their will.

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OK, let's be real clear. I want this on record.

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I am not now attracted to children.

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I don't seek out the affections of children, nor do I want to have sex with children.

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Is that clear?

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Coalinga has been hailed by some as the best solution to the problem of paedophilia.

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It's also been accused of being a kind of prison in disguise.

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For the first time, it had opened its doors to a documentary crew.

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Around 800 patients are confined at Coalinga.

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Hospital policy is to refer to them as individuals and address them by their surnames.

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One of the individuals in treatment is Mr Rigby.

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A former high school sports coach, he served 10 years in prison for abusing some of his students.

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Instead of being released, he was committed to hospital.

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He'd let me see his file and agreed to talk openly about his crimes in the company of one of his therapists.

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Louie?

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How are you doing, Mr Rigby?

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Fine, sir. Thank you.

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Joe, are you Mr Rigby's social worker?

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Yes.

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So you have a pretty close relationship? You work closely together?

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We work fairly close, yeah. I see him every month at his team and we have groups together.

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How long have you been working together, you two?

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Well, I've known Joe for about almost a year and a half now since being at Coalinga.

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How do you feel it's been going with Mr Rigby?

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Excellent. He's doing quite well. He does everything that's asked of him and he's just great.

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You can't have a better client. Any challenge, he's up to face it.

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This is your room, Mr Rigby?

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This is our dorm. There are four men that share the dorm. This is my room area here.

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This is your area? Yes.

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So you've got some pictures of classical statues there?

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Oh, yes.

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And that is, explain.

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Pardon me?

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What is that all about?

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Only my appreciation for art and culture.

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There seems to be an interest in the male physical form.

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Yes. Yes. I'm an open gay, homosexual man here.

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I don't flaunt it, but I admire the male figure, so it's kind of something I identify with.

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Why other roommates might have pictures of surfing girls. We have an artist in the room.

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So we each kind of have our own unique taste.

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This seems a little risque. That's quite close to the prohibited.

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Oh, I think it's a little bit of my love for ballet, and I suppose it has some male eroticism to it.

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With a youngish man, you know, could be 16, could be 18, could be...

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Oh, I suppose that has potential, yes.

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Would that be true? Say again?

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I don't look at them as teenagers. I look at them as basically ballet performers.

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They all look very mature to me.

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Is it okay, Joe, to have imagery that has a slightly erotic overtone that's in the area of what the offenses were?

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Well, I don't know. Look, I've never seen that picture before, but they look like adults to me, aren't they?

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So what was the question again? I'm sorry.

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Is that okay?

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Is that okay?

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Yeah, as long as they're of age, that's okay.

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You know, one of the things I was reading in your file was that you'd started something,

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or there had been something called the Togas, a club that you kind of organized or ran in which...

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Maybe you should say what it is.

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Well, the club was on the basis of an athletic club. The problem with it, it ended up with a sexual initiation, which I encouraged, which I certainly found arousing,

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and definitely was a way of sexualizing boys through that initiation.

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And these boys aged?

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Those boys were aged primarily 11 and 12 years of age.

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11 to 12, and what was the initiation?

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It was sticking their penis in a tube, and it was a method of getting through their boundaries of modesty.

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That allowed you to...?

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To sexualize them, to allow myself to receive gratification.

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And you encouraged them to orally copulate each other?

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No, they didn't do that. No.

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That's in the... that is in the clinical...

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That wasn't with the Togas. There were two other boys that were... that I encouraged to do that. Yes.

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Given that this was part of your thinking at one time, how will you... if and when you get out, how will you guard against that creeping back into your thinking?

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By guarding my environment, by understanding, again, our high risk, and of course my number one high risk is being around children, and I can respect that.

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I don't probably expect society to accept me in the long run, but I'd like to show them I can be a better citizen.

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How are you? How are you doing? David. How are you doing? I'm good.

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Much of the treatment at Koalinga takes place in group sessions.

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Like I said, one of the signs of sexual preoccupation is a total sexual outlet of seven or more orgasms a week for an extended period of time, found in one study.

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So these are examples of the... too much, the interest...

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Individuals are encouraged to open up about their crimes and their ongoing thoughts and fantasies in an attempt to recognize and repress any deviant urges.

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For one thing, I'm reducing the sexual content of any materials that I produce.

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I'm also masturbating less, and I'm working on trying to extend that period to be longer between masturbations.

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One of the facilitators of these groups is Ernie Marshall.

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You're a social worker here, and can you tell me... I mean, you get to know the guys that are under your care pretty well, would you say? That's your job in a way.

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Yes, I do. The people that are... I read their records, and I read their charts. I happen to be a hands-on type guy.

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Do you have to like them?

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You don't have to.

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Because in a way we're talking about a class of people that most people would regard as the least likable of anyone in the world.

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I don't define people by something they've done. So one part of all these guys here is their prior behavior, their sexual behavior.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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But there's a whole piece of a human being that's not that.

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I mean, it's something I kind of... I'm grappling with a bit too, because as someone who's... I'm attempting to form kind of a relationship for the sake of filming,

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and I'm also constantly aware that people at home will think, you know, why are you being nice to that guy given what he did?

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You know, and then if that's what I am thinking, it must be, you know, in a way, isn't that something you have to deal with as well?

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I think all people or everybody, I try to find something likable. And in fact, these guys, a lot of them have a lot of likable things.

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Yeah.

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And I think the part of them that unlikable is something they didn't choose. No one woke up and said, I'm going to be...

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No one grow up at age five and said, I'm going to grow up and be a pedophile.

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Yeah.

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I'm going to grow up and be a rapist. No one chooses it.

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This is a back area that contains a vocational education, a music center, and there's a specific area that we call, um...

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The Golden Gate Center, which is an area that's reserved for individuals that are involved in the program here.

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And this is the Golden Gate Center.

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Okay.

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Hi. Here's our musician. Me and this gentleman share a common musical interest, so we have something to talk about.

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You play the guitar as well?

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No, we are Grateful Dead fans.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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So we may have gone to concerts at the same concert 20 years ago, it turns out.

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How about that?

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And what are you in for? What are you doing here?

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What am I doing here today?

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Well, no. How come you've been...

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What do you mean, what's my incarceration, reason for incarceration?

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I'm a child molester.

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Really?

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It does. It's different levels of sexual contact. Some had no sexual contact whatsoever. Some of it was just like, I'm talking dirty and those sorts of things.

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But it was nonetheless a violation of their space, their soul, their sexuality.

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How does it feel talking about it now?

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Well, it's embarrassing. Uncomfortable. Nothing I'm proud of, that's for damn sure. But I did it.

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Do you feel at this point you've got it under control, that you're no longer a risk to the public?

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I believe so. I believe I could be released, but with the understanding that I would continue in therapy out there.

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That's something that I would not want to do without that kind of support.

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What's likely to happen here? Will he get released any time soon?

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I believe that he will successfully reintegrate into society, actually.

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My opinion of Mr. Rupert. He presents as committed to abstinence. I have no reason to doubt that.

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He presents as committed to...

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Abstinence from abusive behavior.

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Right. You say he presents as committed to... You mean that...

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Well, that's my little way of saying, that's what he says.

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I feel a little... I don't want to offend you, you know? But that's what he says.

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And then I added, I have no reason to doubt that. There's no data to say that he's lying to me about that.

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So I do believe he will be returned to the community.

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There are five phases of treatment at Coalinga.

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Patients are judged on their progress in therapy through regular tests.

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These are either polygraphs, lie detector tests, or a form of sexual test called the PPG.

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This is Abel Vera. In here he's our PPG technician.

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How do you do? Louie, nice to meet you.

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He's responsible for administering the PPG, and the results I help him interpret and write up.

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What does PPG stand for?

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It stands for a Penile Plathesmograph Assessment. It's a phallometric assessment.

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Basically, it is literally measuring the penis size.

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Correct.

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In terms of how aroused a man is.

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Correct. Do you have an extra gauge?

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Okay. So this gauge, it's clean. It's brand new. It's very soft, and it's filled with mercury inside.

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And so the individual places this gauge on the shaft of the penis. Feel it. You can feel it.

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Like that.

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Yeah. And then they're shown a mix of normative stimuli to consenting adult, either males or females, or a combination,

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as well as deviant stimuli, rape scenes involving adult women, as well as audio scenes involving children,

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or still slides or videos involving sexually suggestive scenes with children.

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Not actual child porn, then?

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No. They're not nude.

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So they're clad in bathing suits.

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And it's sexually suggestive, such as playing in a pool, playing with water, a hose, eating fruit, things like that.

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Do they sit in here when the thing is going on?

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No.

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Can we see that room?

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Sure.

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You sit in here.

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I sit in here.

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So that's a clean chuck.

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And what happens is the individual is asked to sit in this chair.

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They're also asked to slide the table over them and put their hands on top of the table,

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because one classic way of being deceptive is to put the gauge on your fingers and just sit there.

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It's one method of determining whether they're answering honestly to the PBG stimuli.

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There's lots of reasons why an individual might be deceptive during this test,

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and so we have different types of ways to reduce any deceptive activities.

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Though in theory, Kohalinga exists to rehabilitate and release sex offenders,

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in the last ten years, out of the hundreds of individuals detained, only 13 have ever been approved for release in this way.

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I had the opportunity to meet one, Mr. Lamb, while being given a tour by the hospital's head psychologist, Dr. Dorazio.

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Some guys should check out some supplies during the day, and they do artwork, and they work on projects back here.

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And here we have Mr. Lamb, who's working on his projects.

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So, Mr. Lamb, this is the BBC, and we thought we would check in with you.

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Hi, how are you doing?

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Good, thank you.

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I'm Louis.

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Louis.

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From the BBC.

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Great, great.

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What are you working on here?

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I'm just putting finishing touches on a little craft Ferris wheel that I just concluded working with,

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and it's a company that puts out paper products, and I'm trying to put them together as best I can with the limited resources,

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but it's been a challenge, and it really works.

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When it's finished, it's a good sign that the thing's been done well.

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Yeah.

203
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Dr. Dorazio said you're waiting for housing in the outside world?

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Yes, I've been ordered out by a judge for more than a year now,

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and I think just the wait for housing can be so intense sometimes because they really have to search hard and long for a place that'd be suitable.

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And the problem is that people in the community have expressed they just don't want a sex offender living among them.

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Is that it? That's the issue?

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It seems to be the problem is getting one placed. Who wants them next door?

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However, we try to instill upon them that this program has changed us,

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and we're capable of truly living among people again, and certainly a lot of doctors endorse that,

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and we can carry out with this type of assurance that it's not just us going out there.

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We're not selling ourselves, but the program will help us sell ourselves as well.

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Has the conditional release agency given you an estimate of how many properties that they've looked at

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or they've solicited for people to rent to you?

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They have given me an idea of somewhere close to 1,100 places that have been looked into.

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So we have our fingers crossed.

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More than 1,000.

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So far, no landlord has stuck with it. There has been one decline from a judge where there was a family group home setting

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that was within the 2,000 feet, and it was found out late in the decision.

220
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:59,000
The other one was that the landlord was threatened actually verbally and left rattlesnakes on his porch.

221
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:04,000
So it was physical threat, and the person just didn't want to hang in with that.

222
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,000
What was the nature of your offense?

223
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,000
My offense was molestation, primarily male, underage male.

224
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:19,000
And there were approximately 40 to 50 victims, some of them in the teens, with a few convictions, actual convictions as adults.

225
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:28,000
And so it's harder somewhat than some of the other types of cases, molestations are certainly looked upon more hurriedly.

226
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:34,000
So I certainly empathize with the public's thoughts and concerns over that and the fears.

227
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,000
Did he say 50 victims?

228
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,000
Yeah, he estimates about 50 victims, male victims, child molestation.

229
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,000
So we're talking about a deeply entrenched...

230
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,000
Not that he was convicted of.

231
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:54,000
No, he was not convicted of 50 victims, but he's come to admit and take accountability for 50 victims,

232
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,000
and certainly was his sexual preference for a long time.

233
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:03,000
We're talking about a well-ingrained pattern of fantasies and urges around the objects of boys.

234
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,000
So he really has come a long way.

235
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,000
Quite interesting. Quite interesting.

236
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,000
How soon do you think you might actually find someone?

237
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:23,000
We've been hoping for the last year that a housing opportunity would come up, and it's just very, very difficult.

238
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:31,000
Most people are okay with the return of sex offenders in some form to the community, but just not their backyard, or their community, or their development.

239
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,000
It's very, very hard to place sexual offenders.

240
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,000
You I'm hoping some of not that.

241
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,000
It's very exciting.

242
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,000
Here's the garage, how much it does.

243
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:58,160
Kowalinga cost almost $400 million to build.

244
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:02,780
To keep each patient costs a further $200,000 a year.

245
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,900
So it's surprising that the vast majority of men boycott therapy,

246
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:12,580
viewing it as window dressing for a place whose real intention is to keep them confined indefinitely.

247
00:20:13,580 --> 00:20:16,240
Most prefer to try their chances with legal appeals.

248
00:20:16,820 --> 00:20:21,340
In fact, many more individuals have gone out this way than through the phased therapy program.

249
00:20:22,860 --> 00:20:24,220
Who are we about to meet?

250
00:20:24,580 --> 00:20:26,180
We're about to meet Mr Kitchens.

251
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:33,140
He is one of the 70% of the individuals who's declining to participate in the sex-fence-specific treatment program.

252
00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:35,820
OK. And that's him out there?

253
00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:36,160
Yep.

254
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:37,640
How are you doing?

255
00:20:41,980 --> 00:20:43,000
My name is Mr Kitchens.

256
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:45,620
Hi. How do you do? I'm Louis.

257
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:47,980
Nice to meet you. You're Mr Kitchens?

258
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:48,580
Yes, I am.

259
00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:50,480
We're going to go through here, I think.

260
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,920
So you're not in the program. Is that because you feel you don't have a problem?

261
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:00,760
No.

262
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,760
Um, it...

263
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,220
That's hard to answer.

264
00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:07,960
I've committed my crimes.

265
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,520
I've never denied committing my crimes.

266
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:12,940
May I ask what those were?

267
00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:17,900
One was, uh, a, uh, friend of mine's child.

268
00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:22,440
Uh, we had been staying in a motel, me and my wife.

269
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:27,960
And, uh, I was babysitting at the time and I was under the influence at the time.

270
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,200
And, uh, some touching was involved.

271
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,500
How old?

272
00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:35,000
Uh, six and seven.

273
00:21:35,380 --> 00:21:35,960
What was it, two?

274
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:37,820
I'm not sure if the child was six or seven.

275
00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:40,940
Between six and seven years old.

276
00:21:40,940 --> 00:21:46,840
And in 1990, uh, yeah, 89, I was convicted of the same offense.

277
00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:49,200
Luminous civius acts of a child at the age of 14.

278
00:21:49,580 --> 00:21:51,760
Have there been other cases that didn't come to trial?

279
00:21:51,940 --> 00:21:52,120
No.

280
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,980
So you're saying you've only been aroused by children those two times?

281
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:57,680
Those are the only two times when...

282
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:04,680
Molesting a child has made you, or the idea of it has made you aroused?

283
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:06,940
Has it seemed gratifying to you?

284
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,040
I guess so.

285
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,540
That doesn't seem, that doesn't seem likely to me.

286
00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:18,000
What happens, what's going on in me subconsciously or unconsciously?

287
00:22:18,260 --> 00:22:19,380
I couldn't tell you.

288
00:22:19,940 --> 00:22:23,600
It's very possible that I have an attraction to children that I don't know about.

289
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,840
Don't you know who and what you're attracted to in general in your life?

290
00:22:29,780 --> 00:22:35,140
Well, you know, yeah, I do.

291
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,220
I do know what I'm attracted to now.

292
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,920
I know a lot more about myself now than I ever did, than I did 20 years ago.

293
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:44,740
That's children or not children?

294
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,540
Okay, let's be real clear.

295
00:22:47,620 --> 00:22:48,680
I want this on record.

296
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,340
I am not now attracted to children.

297
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:59,840
I don't seek out the affections of children, nor do I want to have sex with children.

298
00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:01,080
Is that clear?

299
00:23:01,860 --> 00:23:02,780
Is that clear?

300
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:04,040
Please answer the question.

301
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,460
That's not clear?

302
00:23:05,620 --> 00:23:10,800
No, because you had just said that it was possible you had an attraction to children that you weren't aware of.

303
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,260
At one time.

304
00:23:12,260 --> 00:23:17,120
You may have an attraction to children that you're not aware of.

305
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:18,200
Did you know that?

306
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,180
She could have attraction to children.

307
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:21,600
She could have an attraction to children.

308
00:23:22,140 --> 00:23:23,820
Because they're not aware of it.

309
00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:32,660
I find it hard to believe that you could have an attraction that you're completely not aware of.

310
00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:38,900
Because we go through life as sexual beings knowing what things we find attractive and what things we don't.

311
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:41,040
I can't answer that.

312
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,420
I'm feeling a lot of intensity.

313
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:44,320
There is.

314
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,800
And the energy in this corner of the room, it's palpable.

315
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,900
So, I mean, let's check in.

316
00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:50,920
Are you okay?

317
00:23:51,140 --> 00:23:51,980
Yeah, I'm all right.

318
00:23:52,020 --> 00:23:53,080
Take a couple deep breaths.

319
00:23:53,080 --> 00:24:01,580
I just, when I answer a question clearly, it kind of irks me a little to have somebody tell me I didn't.

320
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:09,420
At this point, as Mr. Kitchen's, he's in the kind of catch-22 where you're just sort of warehousing him, really.

321
00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:13,660
Since he won't enter the program and he doesn't, he's not, it's not likely that he'll get out.

322
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,140
Yeah, that's true.

323
00:24:15,140 --> 00:24:22,400
We're warehousing him as well as, you know, the other 70% of the individuals who aren't in the program.

324
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:53,060
We're warehousing him as well.

325
00:24:53,080 --> 00:25:08,580
I began to experience daily life at Koalinga.

326
00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:18,080
One of the striking things for the outsider is the surprisingly high level of comfort on offer.

327
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:26,880
I had to remind myself that the men have already served their time in prison and that if they weren't here, they would be living in the outside world.

328
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:36,360
Though they've all been diagnosed with psychological and sexual disorders, a majority feel that they are completely sane.

329
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,680
When I'm sad, here she comes to me.

330
00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:42,480
What brought you here, my house?

331
00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:45,400
All of us here are for sexual nature crimes, all right?

332
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:46,280
Come on, come on.

333
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:46,860
Come on, come on.

334
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:54,600
Mine was in 1988 when I got convicted and accused and convicted and I was 22 at that time.

335
00:25:55,940 --> 00:26:01,060
It was a child molest charge, which I've been contesting ever since.

336
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,120
You say you didn't do it?

337
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:07,080
I know I didn't do it.

338
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,040
And so you don't feel you have a mental disorder?

339
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,980
I feel that most of the people here do not have a mental disorder.

340
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:17,560
Whether they did or didn't do their crime, I'm not one to judge.

341
00:26:19,780 --> 00:26:22,100
It was a criminal act for most of these guys.

342
00:26:22,260 --> 00:26:22,620
You know what I mean?

343
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:25,800
It wasn't a mental disorder act.

344
00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:30,360
This is where the problem lies with the law.

345
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:49,700
When the time came for me to see treatment up close, one of the first sessions I attended

346
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:52,940
turned out to be something I'd inadvertently triggered.

347
00:27:02,020 --> 00:27:06,800
I guess we can start by talking about what you, what were your thoughts about some of the

348
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,500
issues we brought up in our last meeting?

349
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:18,600
Well, the issues were fair considering when Louie actually saw the picture, it actually

350
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:24,020
was just kind of shocking of his perception because even I didn't perceive it like that.

351
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,480
And then afterwards, I actually took the picture down and put myself in Louie's picture and

352
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:30,700
he's a guest here at the hospital.

353
00:27:31,220 --> 00:27:38,480
He knows my offending history and he saw something that looked potentially adolescent and that

354
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:39,420
that's against my nature.

355
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:45,020
It was kind of shocking to me of his perception and that's what bothered me the most.

356
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:46,540
There's two things.

357
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,660
One is the tightness of the tights and the youthful look in his face.

358
00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:55,420
His face is actually very, very boyish.

359
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,040
That's my perception.

360
00:27:57,540 --> 00:27:59,660
I would have to agree with Louie on that.

361
00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:04,620
And I think if this were just hanging in an art museum, they're right.

362
00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:10,040
But Mr. Rigby, you're someone who has a history of sex offenses.

363
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:16,060
This person could be 18, could be 15, could be 24.

364
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:23,960
And I think also the defensiveness and the measure that you went to to contact your sources,

365
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:25,000
if you will.

366
00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:29,320
Might I say to the camera that you contacted the...

367
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:30,320
New York City Ballet.

368
00:28:30,460 --> 00:28:35,960
He contacted the New York City Ballet for validation about the actual age of this particular person.

369
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:36,960
But it's a painting, though.

370
00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:37,560
It's not a photo.

371
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,400
It's a painting for Mr. Balanchine on his retirement.

372
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:41,260
The choreographer?

373
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:41,800
Correct.

374
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,060
Yeah, apparently that's Peter Martin, who became one of the great...

375
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:46,700
The real person?

376
00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:47,100
Yes.

377
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,440
Every one of them represents a person in Mr. Balanchine's life.

378
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:52,720
So it was fascinating.

379
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,860
And I did that, you're right, to be defensive and to almost validate myself.

380
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,800
And I realized I didn't really have to go to that step.

381
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:04,060
It kind of made me feel, well, thank heavens, I wasn't looking at an adolescent.

382
00:29:04,060 --> 00:29:06,900
But it doesn't change your perspective.

383
00:29:07,340 --> 00:29:14,220
It doesn't change the identity I wish to convey to you and anyone else who knows I was a sex offender

384
00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:16,240
and they don't want me looking at adolescence.

385
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,720
A little later, and to illustrate the importance of patient honesty,

386
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,160
Dr. D'Orazio had arranged to debrief an individual about his test results.

387
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,140
Hi, Mr. Price.

388
00:29:33,140 --> 00:29:33,660
How are you doing?

389
00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:34,180
How are you doing?

390
00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:34,760
You remember us?

391
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:35,960
Good to see you again.

392
00:29:36,860 --> 00:29:39,060
Mr. Price is also a paedophile in treatment.

393
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,280
And though he'd been making good progress,

394
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,320
Dr. D'Orazio had told me there'd been a recent setback.

395
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:47,080
There was an issue about your polygraph.

396
00:29:47,260 --> 00:29:47,900
Is that right?

397
00:29:47,980 --> 00:29:48,640
What was the issue?

398
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,340
Can you explain?

399
00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:50,420
You left in the middle of it.

400
00:29:50,420 --> 00:29:53,920
The issue was that I was going to lie and I didn't want to do that, so I left.

401
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:55,240
How were you going to lie?

402
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,100
Well, I had some things that I was covering up at the time that I didn't want known.

403
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,140
And I felt that I had reasons for that, and then I realized the reasons were not as important as I thought they were.

404
00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:07,000
You were going to, in effect, try and cheat the test, is that right?

405
00:30:07,460 --> 00:30:09,380
Partially, but I also knew I couldn't.

406
00:30:09,580 --> 00:30:15,380
I had put antiperspirant on my hands, so that part of the test would be invalid.

407
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:16,560
Were you trying to hide?

408
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:22,680
Some victims I had were relatives, and some were more serious than I'd said they were,

409
00:30:22,780 --> 00:30:27,460
and I was afraid of prosecution if I gave out enough information about them.

410
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:28,980
Undiscovered crimes?

411
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:29,440
Yeah.

412
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:30,980
Oh, yeah, they were all undiscovered, yeah.

413
00:30:31,460 --> 00:30:37,120
What compelled you to make the decision to be deceptive in the program?

414
00:30:38,460 --> 00:30:39,300
Self-protection.

415
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:46,720
Um, yeah, I felt, um, completely, um, exposed.

416
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:48,460
I had no orientation.

417
00:30:48,820 --> 00:30:50,220
I had no idea what they were going to do.

418
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:51,960
I didn't even know what they were going to ask.

419
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,180
I could have the polygraph next month.

420
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,240
I still haven't had an orientation.

421
00:30:55,420 --> 00:30:56,460
I've been asking for an orientation.

422
00:30:56,620 --> 00:30:58,080
Nobody said there's orientations.

423
00:30:58,860 --> 00:31:01,260
Let me just, let me point out what you're doing right now.

424
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:05,220
I'm trying to offer you some constructive feedback, and your defenses are getting up,

425
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:06,660
and you're starting to finger point.

426
00:31:06,660 --> 00:31:10,680
I haven't even started to figure points, so don't go there.

427
00:31:13,180 --> 00:31:14,540
I think we better leave it alone.

428
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,120
Let my clinicians deal with it.

429
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,180
This is not my clinician.

430
00:31:20,220 --> 00:31:26,160
What, what could make you maybe feel better with interacting with myself and the BBC and this piece right now?

431
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,220
Well, I don't understand why I'm interacting with you at all.

432
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,920
I don't understand your, why you're here.

433
00:31:31,740 --> 00:31:33,060
Maybe somebody could tell me.

434
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,520
Why, Dr. DeRozio is here?

435
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:35,720
Mm-hmm.

436
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:35,960
Yeah.

437
00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:42,280
It's an interview with me and the BBC, you know.

438
00:31:42,340 --> 00:31:45,360
If you want to be there for background, okay, I guess that makes sense.

439
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,200
But why are you asking me questions at all?

440
00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:53,460
So you'd feel more comfortable if no provider was here, that you could have your time with the BBC on your own?

441
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,640
At this point, yes.

442
00:31:57,860 --> 00:31:58,540
Why is that?

443
00:31:58,540 --> 00:32:03,220
But it's mainly you that I don't want to hear, right now, because of the attitude I'm hearing.

444
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,160
Well, what happens now?

445
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,280
Well, I'm not sure.

446
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,400
Well, I'm not sure.

447
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,620
I'm kind of at a loss of how Mr. Price came to this place right now, and I'm not sure what's going on.

448
00:32:16,620 --> 00:32:21,240
Maybe we'll sort of draw a line under this for now, if that's okay with both of you.

449
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,240
I think it's a good idea.

450
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,240
Thank you very much.

451
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:23,740
Thank you.

452
00:32:23,740 --> 00:32:26,200
Thanks, Mr. Price.

453
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:26,620
Thank you.

454
00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:34,300
I found that quite odd.

455
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:36,020
How was that for you?

456
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,740
I felt maybe that would be upsetting for you a little bit.

457
00:32:39,820 --> 00:32:44,940
I think I feel a little bit of disappointment about Mr. Price's decisions.

458
00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:47,120
I think that...

459
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:47,920
But what about personal?

460
00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:50,300
I mean, it felt like that was a kind of personal thing.

461
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:50,780
I get a lot of that.

462
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:51,880
I get a lot of that.

463
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,920
It's one of the job hazards of being a clinician in this work.

464
00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:00,340
If you go to the places where you believe that the patient needs to go to in their treatment,

465
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,840
there's going to be resistance because there are very uncomfortable places within the person.

466
00:33:04,420 --> 00:33:06,660
He became very almost abusive and aggressive.

467
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:10,620
That's a very small microcosm of how he might be in the community

468
00:33:10,620 --> 00:33:13,920
if he's faced with similar situations and similar stressors.

469
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,800
He might have people like me in various degrees in his life,

470
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,380
and if that gets him unsettled, then he might act out towards that person

471
00:33:23,380 --> 00:33:25,260
or it could be children.

472
00:33:33,180 --> 00:33:38,240
One evening, I stayed late at the hospital to attend one of their regular social events.

473
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,860
What's the occasion today?

474
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:42,700
A Halloween party.

475
00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:45,540
Every month we have activities.

476
00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:50,540
We have, like, Octoberfest, karaoke night, like, next month.

477
00:33:50,980 --> 00:33:53,240
And then we have December, we'll have a Christmas party.

478
00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:55,100
So every month something's happening.

479
00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:56,900
And then every month we have birthday parties.

480
00:33:57,300 --> 00:33:59,600
So we give out cake and ice cream and gifts.

481
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:01,620
You were in prison before this, I imagine.

482
00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:01,860
Yeah.

483
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,260
And so is this something you do at prison as well?

484
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:04,500
No.

485
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:07,320
No, you don't get nothing like this in prison.

486
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:08,940
How do you like it in here?

487
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,000
I don't like it here at all.

488
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:13,500
I don't like being locked up.

489
00:34:13,660 --> 00:34:14,380
Compared with prison?

490
00:34:17,220 --> 00:34:17,860
I don't.

491
00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:19,680
You think it's worse than prison?

492
00:34:19,940 --> 00:34:20,600
I like prison.

493
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:21,520
Why?

494
00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:23,160
Because you know where you stand.

495
00:34:23,700 --> 00:34:24,800
You know the ground you're on.

496
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,900
You know the responsibilities.

497
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,260
You know the respect you've got coming honestly, not dishonestly.

498
00:34:29,740 --> 00:34:30,300
And there was a...

499
00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:31,700
And there's a code.

500
00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:32,660
You know what's going on.

501
00:34:33,340 --> 00:34:35,740
You're doing life just in case you do commit another crime.

502
00:34:36,140 --> 00:34:36,920
That's not justice.

503
00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:39,460
If that's the case, lock everybody up in the society.

504
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,440
Because tomorrow I might get in the car and run somebody over.

505
00:34:43,420 --> 00:34:47,800
If I can ask you, you were here because there must be some sexual offense in your history.

506
00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:48,880
I had a date rape.

507
00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:49,780
A date rape?

508
00:34:49,940 --> 00:34:50,160
Oh, yeah.

509
00:34:51,700 --> 00:34:52,700
You guys want to try something?

510
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:52,880
Sure.

511
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,600
Tell me if it tastes good.

512
00:34:59,240 --> 00:34:59,840
Thank you.

513
00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:02,260
Let's see if that's strong enough for this one.

514
00:35:04,340 --> 00:35:05,400
That tastes quite good.

515
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,200
Thank you.

516
00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:19,780
Thank you.

517
00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:23,780
They're all together, Rookie, the Addams Family.

518
00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:35,780
They're creepy and they're Rookie, mysterious and spooky.

519
00:35:35,780 --> 00:35:42,780
They're all together, Rookie, the Addams Family.

520
00:35:49,780 --> 00:36:07,780
I had made another appointment with Mr Lamb.

521
00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:10,780
Our first conversation had made an impression on me

522
00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:14,780
and I wanted to know more about how he felt he'd changed.

523
00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:22,780
Is there still for you a degree of attraction to small children?

524
00:36:22,780 --> 00:36:24,780
At this point, there isn't.

525
00:36:24,780 --> 00:36:29,780
And I can safely feel good about that accomplishment by saying that.

526
00:36:29,780 --> 00:36:38,780
And part of the reason is I chose to have, personally, chose to have a castration.

527
00:36:38,780 --> 00:36:46,780
Very few people have gone that route, but it's relieved a great deal of the invasiveness of my deviancy

528
00:36:46,780 --> 00:36:52,780
and allowed me to think and get into my soul and my head as to what I really did and the hurt.

529
00:36:52,780 --> 00:36:56,780
We're not talking about chemical castration. It's a physical operation.

530
00:36:56,780 --> 00:37:04,780
It was physical. I started with a chemical to seek that kind of relief if there was possible.

531
00:37:04,780 --> 00:37:08,780
And when I started taking those shots, I said, you know, I need this.

532
00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:12,780
And I chose the physical to make it permanent.

533
00:37:12,780 --> 00:37:20,780
What no one can really understand is why you would think at any time it would have been okay for you to molest a child,

534
00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:27,780
especially one as young as seven years old, you know, how could you have thought that that was something that it was okay to do?

535
00:37:27,780 --> 00:37:30,780
We do talk about this in our therapy groups.

536
00:37:30,780 --> 00:37:32,780
How can you do this? And so forth.

537
00:37:32,780 --> 00:37:41,780
But we've answered that on and on again with things like, we're in an obsessive moment.

538
00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:46,780
Things have gone wrong in life and we've had early sexualization. We've mid molested ourselves.

539
00:37:46,780 --> 00:37:50,780
We've had lots of sexual encounters in early youth.

540
00:37:50,780 --> 00:37:56,780
And it's just something that seems to be necessary to pursue when things go wrong again.

541
00:37:56,780 --> 00:38:06,780
In that mode at that time, did it seem as though it was okay with the children, that the children would want it?

542
00:38:06,780 --> 00:38:10,780
Did it seem to you that that was something they were seeking out?

543
00:38:10,780 --> 00:38:19,780
No. I changed their normal life to make mine something for that moment of fun.

544
00:38:19,780 --> 00:38:22,780
That is hard.

545
00:38:22,780 --> 00:38:25,780
And I can see that now. It's hindsight.

546
00:38:25,780 --> 00:38:30,780
And in that moment, I'm nothing. I'm someone else.

547
00:38:30,780 --> 00:38:35,780
I'm doing what I want, regardless of who is hurt.

548
00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:42,780
And that's where we've come to a place in the full line of treatment to see that and to really work with that as, you know, we can't go there again.

549
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:44,780
There's just tremendous pain.

550
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:52,780
What would you say to people who saw you now and said, well, he's saying the right things now. How do we know that he's changed?

551
00:38:52,780 --> 00:38:58,780
Why should we be willing to take that risk of allowing him back into the community?

552
00:38:58,780 --> 00:39:19,780
Coming from the source, there may not be much credibility, but I can only say that in the last few years of the improved therapy and the responses from doctors and the work that I've done, the phrase that fits is actions speak louder than words.

553
00:39:19,780 --> 00:39:36,780
I can tell you anything. But if my actions show otherwise, then I'm not credible. So I have to act well, to be well, and then to be talked of in a better light. So it's going to have to be proof in the pudding.

554
00:39:36,780 --> 00:39:55,780
By now, I'd been in the hospital for several days.

555
00:39:55,780 --> 00:40:04,780
More than ever, I was struck by the strangeness of the pleasant surroundings and the fact that many, if not most, of these men would be living this way for the rest of their lives.

556
00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:08,780
You're renting out DVDs?

557
00:40:08,780 --> 00:40:12,780
Yeah, what we do is, for the point exchange program, we rent out DVDs and CDs.

558
00:40:12,780 --> 00:40:14,780
Which ones have you got there? What have you got there?

559
00:40:14,780 --> 00:40:16,780
We've got all sorts of movies.

560
00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:23,780
Look Behind Two, Nativity Story, Seven Years in Tibet, Catch Me If You Can.

561
00:40:25,780 --> 00:40:32,780
I was also becoming aware of a growing disgruntlement over the focus of the documentary.

562
00:40:32,780 --> 00:40:39,780
Numerous individuals had approached me complaining I was spending too much time with the small minority involved in treatment.

563
00:40:39,780 --> 00:40:42,780
How would you feel about spending the rest of your life in this hospital?

564
00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:46,780
Well, I don't like it, but I really have no choice.

565
00:40:46,780 --> 00:40:51,780
This is the most corrupt program, okay, that I've ever seen in my life, okay?

566
00:40:51,780 --> 00:40:58,780
The FACE program is nothing more than a sham that's here to hold us indefinitely.

567
00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:04,780
This is nothing but warehouse. Look at the big money they get. They get $200,000 a year for keeping us in here, okay?

568
00:41:04,780 --> 00:41:06,780
Nobody wants us out there on the streets.

569
00:41:06,780 --> 00:41:19,780
Among those who came up to me was a man who'd exhausted his legal appeals and whose unwillingness to embrace treatment now meant that he would die at Coalinga.

570
00:41:19,780 --> 00:41:21,780
His name was Mr Yarn.

571
00:41:21,780 --> 00:41:24,780
How do you do, Louis? Nice to meet you.

572
00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:26,780
George is my middle name and that's generally what I go with.

573
00:41:26,780 --> 00:41:27,780
Okay, George.

574
00:41:27,780 --> 00:41:28,780
Yes.

575
00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:29,780
Are you in this program?

576
00:41:29,780 --> 00:41:30,780
No, I am not.

577
00:41:30,780 --> 00:41:33,780
For what reason?

578
00:41:33,780 --> 00:41:38,780
As many times as I have been asked that question, there's probably as many answers that are different.

579
00:41:38,780 --> 00:41:46,780
But the most important thing is there is nobody that can tell what's going on inside my head, period.

580
00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:47,780
Nobody knows.

581
00:41:47,780 --> 00:41:48,780
What about you?

582
00:41:48,780 --> 00:41:49,780
I do.

583
00:41:49,780 --> 00:42:02,780
And I can tell you, I can tell anybody, I can tell your audience that I'm not a threat to anybody other than I'm not a threat.

584
00:42:02,780 --> 00:42:07,780
So you feel like at this point you don't need any kind of treatment?

585
00:42:07,780 --> 00:42:09,780
I haven't done anything to any of these people so far.

586
00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:18,780
And there's little tiny, I'll due respect, there's individuals here that look like little kids that would probably be great targets.

587
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:19,780
But it's like, why?

588
00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:20,780
In here?

589
00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:21,780
Absolutely.

590
00:42:21,780 --> 00:42:24,780
There's an RT running around here.

591
00:42:24,780 --> 00:42:25,780
It looks like she's 12 years old.

592
00:42:25,780 --> 00:42:26,780
What's an RT?

593
00:42:26,780 --> 00:42:28,780
Oh, rehabilitation therapist.

594
00:42:28,780 --> 00:42:33,780
You know, we sit and look at her and sometimes I think she's a plant just to see if somebody would go off.

595
00:42:33,780 --> 00:42:37,780
And just in passing thought I used to sit and think that.

596
00:42:37,780 --> 00:42:39,780
But she's just a person.

597
00:42:39,780 --> 00:42:49,780
Can you see that because your crimes were so serious that the community at large and the state as an institution might feel that you need some treatment?

598
00:42:49,780 --> 00:42:52,780
Would you go into treatment if you had a headache?

599
00:42:52,780 --> 00:42:54,780
Just curious, would you?

600
00:42:54,780 --> 00:42:55,780
I'm not trying to trap you or anything.

601
00:42:55,780 --> 00:42:56,780
I don't understand.

602
00:42:56,780 --> 00:43:02,780
At any point was there any time where I actually physically raped a kid?

603
00:43:02,780 --> 00:43:03,780
Did you see anything like that?

604
00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:04,780
No, you did not.

605
00:43:04,780 --> 00:43:07,780
My big thing was masturbation.

606
00:43:07,780 --> 00:43:08,780
Big thing.

607
00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:09,780
That was my big thing.

608
00:43:09,780 --> 00:43:17,780
I mean, in a sense that the sex acts that you performed or were involved with children would constitute a form of rape, wouldn't they?

609
00:43:17,780 --> 00:43:23,780
Because, I mean, wasn't there a nine-year-old girl who performed a sex act upon you?

610
00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:24,780
Yes.

611
00:43:24,780 --> 00:43:28,780
She gave me, she used her hand, and yes, she did.

612
00:43:28,780 --> 00:43:30,780
In the notes it said oral copulation.

613
00:43:30,780 --> 00:43:33,780
That was my, in the very 1979 one, that's what I'm looking for.

614
00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:34,780
Yes, 79.

615
00:43:34,780 --> 00:43:35,780
That is true.

616
00:43:35,780 --> 00:43:38,780
And did you, you got your son to masturbate you?

617
00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:39,780
Yes.

618
00:43:39,780 --> 00:43:40,780
No.

619
00:43:40,780 --> 00:43:41,780
No, I didn't.

620
00:43:41,780 --> 00:43:44,780
He was in the same room while I was masturbating.

621
00:43:44,780 --> 00:43:46,780
And did I encourage them to do the same?

622
00:43:46,780 --> 00:43:47,780
Yes, I did.

623
00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:48,780
And you masturbated him as well?

624
00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:49,780
No.

625
00:43:49,780 --> 00:43:50,780
In the notes it did say?

626
00:43:50,780 --> 00:43:51,780
I know that.

627
00:43:51,780 --> 00:44:01,780
Given that you did these terrible things, and you found them arousing, that implies that that's part of your makeup, to find those kinds of acts arousing.

628
00:44:01,780 --> 00:44:04,780
At the time, that is correct.

629
00:44:04,780 --> 00:44:05,780
At the time.

630
00:44:05,780 --> 00:44:09,780
But you're asking me to believe that that stopped, that stopped being your orientation at that point?

631
00:44:09,780 --> 00:44:10,780
Sure.

632
00:44:10,780 --> 00:44:11,780
How?

633
00:44:11,780 --> 00:44:12,780
How would you say that ended?

634
00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:18,780
The simple fact that when I sit, my kids were like this tall, and here I am treating them like crap.

635
00:44:18,780 --> 00:44:19,780
Okay?

636
00:44:19,780 --> 00:44:21,780
Now they're this big.

637
00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:28,780
And they're not only this big, but all of a sudden they got this mind, and all of a sudden they're not just a kid, they're actually people.

638
00:44:28,780 --> 00:44:32,780
And I never thought for a second that these little kids were actually people.

639
00:44:32,780 --> 00:44:34,780
They are little people.

640
00:44:34,780 --> 00:44:39,780
They have feelings, they have desires, they have wants, they need to be loved.

641
00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:43,780
Is there anything that could induce you to enter into the phase program?

642
00:44:43,780 --> 00:44:45,780
Promise me that I go home.

643
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:53,780
Promise me that they will show that anybody that goes through that phase program will never ever do anything again.

644
00:44:58,780 --> 00:44:59,780
You are not.

645
00:44:59,780 --> 00:45:00,780
I'm not.

646
00:45:00,780 --> 00:45:01,780
I'm not.

647
00:45:01,780 --> 00:45:02,780
I'm not.

648
00:45:02,780 --> 00:45:03,780
I'm not.

649
00:45:03,780 --> 00:45:04,780
I'm not.

650
00:45:04,780 --> 00:45:05,780
I'm not.

651
00:45:05,780 --> 00:45:06,780
I'm not.

652
00:45:06,780 --> 00:45:10,780
Wondrous night of miracles.

653
00:45:10,780 --> 00:45:15,780
Wondrous night of miracles.

654
00:45:15,780 --> 00:45:23,780
No more need men on earth reap hungry world.

655
00:45:23,780 --> 00:45:39,180
The miracle of prophecy proclaimed by sages old.

656
00:45:39,180 --> 00:45:47,320
The anthem of the angel choir that echoed till the dawn.

657
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:56,160
The star that reigned its light and fire to the end of our hearts and arms.

658
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:03,820
Glorious night of miracles, wondrous night of miracles.

659
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:13,040
They all combine and shine to make this night divine.

660
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:38,960
I was close to the end of my time at Koalinga.

661
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:46,760
One of the things that had struck me, given the awfulness of their crimes, was how relatively

662
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,560
normal the people in the phase programme could come across.

663
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,900
But I was also aware that having a plausible manner was one of the qualities that had enabled

664
00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:58,780
them to groom their victims, and I was keen not to be taken in.

665
00:46:58,780 --> 00:47:05,580
I went back to see Mr Rigby.

666
00:47:05,580 --> 00:47:09,180
He'd just had the results of his latest clinical tests.

667
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:13,180
I'd had the impression during our time together that he'd been honest with me.

668
00:47:13,180 --> 00:47:16,580
I wondered whether I could trust my instincts.

669
00:47:16,580 --> 00:47:17,580
What happened?

670
00:47:17,580 --> 00:47:23,380
Well, there were two polygraphs, the sexual history and the thoughts and fantasies.

671
00:47:23,380 --> 00:47:26,380
And to pass the polygraph here, you actually have to get 100%.

672
00:47:26,380 --> 00:47:28,180
You have to pass every question.

673
00:47:28,180 --> 00:47:35,380
And it's important because it proves my state of abstinence, that I'm dedicated, that I don't

674
00:47:35,380 --> 00:47:41,980
look at pictures or movies and think deviant arousals or still think of kids as sexual objects.

675
00:47:41,980 --> 00:47:47,780
At this point, could you say that Mr Rigby is cured?

676
00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:49,780
Would you say you're cured?

677
00:47:49,780 --> 00:47:50,780
No.

678
00:47:50,780 --> 00:47:51,780
I'll let him answer that.

679
00:47:51,780 --> 00:47:52,780
No.

680
00:47:52,780 --> 00:47:58,580
I would say at this point, frankly, I am going to recommend his primary facilitator refers

681
00:47:58,580 --> 00:48:05,580
him for staffing, which means that he will go to a panel that will be led by the medical

682
00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:08,580
director that will determine his suitability for treatment in the community.

683
00:48:08,580 --> 00:48:12,580
And I do believe that he is treatable in the community at this time.

684
00:48:12,580 --> 00:48:16,580
You know, one of the things that's been weird and difficult for me as a journalist here is

685
00:48:16,580 --> 00:48:21,180
also balancing the idea of the treatment that exists here with the very real and understandable

686
00:48:21,180 --> 00:48:26,380
grievance that people feel here, that this is not a just or legitimate institution.

687
00:48:26,380 --> 00:48:29,380
So how does that all balance up in your mind, Ernie?

688
00:48:29,380 --> 00:48:35,380
If I was in Allen's shoes and I made a deal with the government that said, if you sign

689
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:39,380
here on this piece of paper, we will put you in the penitentiary for 10 years and then you'll

690
00:48:39,380 --> 00:48:41,380
have parole as you do right.

691
00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:42,380
And I did that.

692
00:48:42,380 --> 00:48:46,380
And then at the end of it, the government comes back and says, we're changing the deal.

693
00:48:46,380 --> 00:48:50,380
I would be outraged and I would feel like my constitutional rights were violated.

694
00:48:50,380 --> 00:48:55,380
In our society, there's a lot of people that want to, you know, sexual offending is a loaded

695
00:48:55,380 --> 00:48:56,380
thing.

696
00:48:56,380 --> 00:48:57,380
To me, too.

697
00:48:57,380 --> 00:49:03,380
I mean, if I think about, I think your behavior was awful.

698
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:04,380
And you already know that.

699
00:49:04,380 --> 00:49:08,380
I'm not saying, you know, I don't think that there's no, have we had this discussion ever?

700
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:09,380
Certainly.

701
00:49:09,380 --> 00:49:14,380
I'm pretty skilled at separating that from judging this human being.

702
00:49:14,380 --> 00:49:16,380
Not everybody in our society is.

703
00:49:16,380 --> 00:49:21,380
Is that why this facility exists, do you think, because of people's inability to separate,

704
00:49:21,380 --> 00:49:24,380
you know, because of that sense of outrage?

705
00:49:24,380 --> 00:49:30,380
I honestly believe that some, and this is my opinion, that there's probably a significant

706
00:49:30,380 --> 00:49:32,380
component of that.

707
00:49:32,380 --> 00:49:38,380
A little later, I was on my way to see Mr. Price.

708
00:49:38,380 --> 00:49:44,380
Since his heated exchange with Dr. Durazio over his polygraph results, he'd evidently

709
00:49:44,380 --> 00:49:47,380
had some second thoughts.

710
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:50,380
And he'd got word to me that he wanted to make amends.

711
00:49:50,380 --> 00:49:55,380
We had an interesting conversation yesterday and it seemed like you got a little annoyed

712
00:49:55,380 --> 00:49:57,380
with Dr. Durazio.

713
00:49:57,380 --> 00:49:58,380
How are you feeling today?

714
00:49:58,380 --> 00:49:59,380
I'm better.

715
00:49:59,380 --> 00:50:05,380
Some residual feelings, but I also, you know, have taken stock of what was going on,

716
00:50:05,380 --> 00:50:10,380
what I was doing and, you know, realized what, how unacceptable it was, inappropriate.

717
00:50:10,380 --> 00:50:17,380
And basically what you've got on film is a patient having emotional dysfunction, you know,

718
00:50:17,380 --> 00:50:20,380
just basically just not regulating his emotions very well.

719
00:50:20,380 --> 00:50:26,380
Will the incident yesterday have set Mr. Price back in his treatment in any way or in the phase program?

720
00:50:26,380 --> 00:50:28,380
Could it be taken into account in some way?

721
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:35,380
Well, I think that the team will process, that decision is not mine to make.

722
00:50:35,380 --> 00:50:41,380
I think that ultimately that incident will serve as a great springboard for Mr. Price to grow.

723
00:50:41,380 --> 00:50:45,380
And that will be the elements of great change for him.

724
00:50:45,380 --> 00:50:51,380
However, if you do that stuff with other people, there's not going to be all of this processing and understanding.

725
00:50:51,380 --> 00:50:57,380
There's going to be, okay, you're out of here, buddy, or even worse, a formal complaint, that kind of stuff.

726
00:50:57,380 --> 00:51:01,380
The way he interacted yesterday could have led to a formal complaint if it were in a different context.

727
00:51:01,380 --> 00:51:02,380
Sure, absolutely.

728
00:51:02,380 --> 00:51:04,380
It was verbal assault.

729
00:51:04,380 --> 00:51:07,380
And it's actually probably a penal code violation of some sort.

730
00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:15,380
And I think a jury, you know, with the testimony that would come forward would probably convict me of that.

731
00:51:15,380 --> 00:51:23,380
Mr. Price didn't raise his voice, as far as I remember, and he wasn't directly abusive, was he?

732
00:51:23,380 --> 00:51:25,380
I mean, what was the worst thing that he did?

733
00:51:25,380 --> 00:51:30,380
Well, you're right, he didn't raise his voice and he didn't act out aggressively physically in any way.

734
00:51:30,380 --> 00:51:37,380
I think that there were some purposefully intentional demeaning statements and some belittling statements.

735
00:51:37,380 --> 00:51:43,380
And he made some statements to suggest that I wasn't being sincere in what I was offering.

736
00:51:43,380 --> 00:51:50,380
And when you tell someone that you don't believe what they're saying is sincere, you're basically cutting them off as a credible source.

737
00:51:50,380 --> 00:51:53,380
So you're eliminating me from the conversation and the room.

738
00:51:53,380 --> 00:51:55,380
And that, to me, is a form of abuse.

739
00:51:55,380 --> 00:52:02,380
And I just want to clarify for you in case you have any concern in your mind or any worry about this.

740
00:52:02,380 --> 00:52:12,380
I am okay with myself and I don't feel less than or I don't feel upset about the situation that occurred.

741
00:52:12,380 --> 00:52:16,380
If anything, it's given me more empathy towards you and more awareness.

742
00:52:16,380 --> 00:52:21,380
And I do not allow myself to be victimized by you in that sense, so I will not be carrying that with me.

743
00:52:21,380 --> 00:52:24,380
So I know that I'm okay with it.

744
00:52:24,380 --> 00:52:35,380
I had one last appointment with Mr. Lam.

745
00:52:35,380 --> 00:52:38,380
I'd heard he had a new housing option in his sights.

746
00:52:38,380 --> 00:52:42,380
I realized I'd started to feel he might be a changed person.

747
00:52:42,380 --> 00:52:47,380
But since our last meeting, I'd also had an opportunity to see his file for the first time.

748
00:52:47,380 --> 00:52:51,380
And I'd been shocked by the details of the abuse.

749
00:52:51,380 --> 00:52:57,380
I'd begun to worry I hadn't questioned him closely enough to be sure he was being honest with me.

750
00:52:57,380 --> 00:53:06,380
Well, I just got off the phone, as I said, with a friend that's out there that's on Liberty, and he's allowed to call me.

751
00:53:06,380 --> 00:53:14,380
And his news was that he had just got off the phone with his coordinator and mentioned to call me and say that there's some property.

752
00:53:14,380 --> 00:53:18,380
And they would establish a little trailer on that property.

753
00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:22,380
And it's a little bit rural, so it's not right in the midst of the community.

754
00:53:22,380 --> 00:53:26,380
You know, which is a good thing for all parties concerned, I think.

755
00:53:26,380 --> 00:53:29,380
It's good to hear news like that.

756
00:53:29,380 --> 00:53:34,380
Mim, you're Mr. Lam's clinician, his chief clinician?

757
00:53:34,380 --> 00:53:36,380
His primary phase provider, yeah.

758
00:53:36,380 --> 00:53:37,380
Is that what it's called?

759
00:53:37,380 --> 00:53:40,380
Are you familiar with the details of the offenses that he committed?

760
00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:41,380
Yes.

761
00:53:41,380 --> 00:53:44,380
For me here, I have to level about one thing.

762
00:53:44,380 --> 00:53:49,380
For me here as a journalist, the one challenge that I'm sort of presented with Mr. Lam is that

763
00:53:49,380 --> 00:53:55,380
because he seems so upset about what he's done, it makes it difficult for me to kind of pry into the details of what the crimes were.

764
00:53:55,380 --> 00:53:58,380
I've sensed that there's a little resistance to that.

765
00:53:58,380 --> 00:53:59,380
Would that be fair to say?

766
00:53:59,380 --> 00:54:00,380
Sure.

767
00:54:00,380 --> 00:54:04,380
Yeah, there's a great deal of shame and grief when I've made it real for me.

768
00:54:04,380 --> 00:54:09,380
But I'm not ashamed that as much to tell people what I did.

769
00:54:09,380 --> 00:54:25,380
It just doesn't seem to, I mean I can't see what telling every small detail and every victim and what awful things that were done to them matter or can help any journalism or anybody other than a clinician.

770
00:54:25,380 --> 00:54:44,380
I mean obviously I'm coming from a non-clinical perspective and I think there's viewers who would feel, not that every detail needs to be gone into, but there's also a sense that because the crimes are so serious that people would feel they kind of need you to own up to what you did to some extent.

771
00:54:44,380 --> 00:54:55,380
I'm not too sure how much more that I could actually own up to them going through eleven years of treatment after six years of prison just to cover where I'm feeling about this.

772
00:54:55,380 --> 00:55:04,380
What would you as a representative of the community feel Mr. Lane would need to do to own up, to use your words, to own up to what he's done?

773
00:55:04,380 --> 00:55:11,380
I think it's by saying, you know, here's the transparency and here's where I am now.

774
00:55:11,380 --> 00:55:18,380
If it's important to you to know the details of the crime I'd be thrilled, truly, to tell you.

775
00:55:18,380 --> 00:55:25,380
But the important thing is that is my past. I want that absolutely understood.

776
00:55:25,380 --> 00:55:29,380
Most of the crimes were as a teenager. I have about thirty-five of them.

777
00:55:29,380 --> 00:55:39,380
Before I was eighteen I was just running willy-nilly in the neighborhood trying to befriend younger boys under ten generally.

778
00:55:39,380 --> 00:55:46,380
If I could convince them to be orally copulated that was my fetish, if you will.

779
00:55:46,380 --> 00:55:53,380
The fifteen that were, as an adult, it was a lot of fondling and orally copulating, if it could get to that point.

780
00:55:53,380 --> 00:55:57,380
That is just awful. It's awful to me now, but those are the things I did.

781
00:55:57,380 --> 00:56:03,380
The contacts, sitting them on my lap, playing computer games, trying to hug.

782
00:56:03,380 --> 00:56:07,380
It's just constant contact, obsession.

783
00:56:07,380 --> 00:56:15,380
I sensed a certain amount of irritation from you, you know, when we started talking about some of the crimes.

784
00:56:15,380 --> 00:56:22,380
And I just wondered, when he goes out into the community, he may face a large amount of publicity

785
00:56:22,380 --> 00:56:27,380
and journalists doorstepping him, I think would be a possibility.

786
00:56:27,380 --> 00:56:31,380
TV crews turning up on his doorstep, I think might be a possibility.

787
00:56:31,380 --> 00:56:37,380
If he finds that really annoying, that may be an issue for him.

788
00:56:37,380 --> 00:56:41,380
You know, it's less annoying than it is hurtful.

789
00:56:41,380 --> 00:56:46,380
And perhaps the public would think, well, I need to be hurt over and over again.

790
00:56:46,380 --> 00:56:51,380
I can find ways to bring up stuff and make me feel bad about this all the time.

791
00:56:51,380 --> 00:56:53,380
There's my life, but I do need to get over it too.

792
00:56:53,380 --> 00:56:56,380
And the treatment has let me do that.

793
00:56:56,380 --> 00:57:05,380
In fact, the judge asked me, when he ordered the release, he said,

794
00:57:05,380 --> 00:57:12,380
is this just a bunch of, what was it, clinical buzzwords you're telling me?

795
00:57:12,380 --> 00:57:15,380
I said, no, it's just a new way of life.

796
00:57:23,380 --> 00:57:25,380
My time at Koalinga was done.

797
00:57:26,380 --> 00:57:33,380
I left impressed by the sincerity of some of the individuals

798
00:57:33,380 --> 00:57:35,380
and their commitment to change.

799
00:57:38,380 --> 00:57:41,380
And baffled by the continuing self-delusion of others.

800
00:57:46,380 --> 00:57:49,380
There were one or two I'd come to believe were reformed men.

801
00:57:50,380 --> 00:57:54,380
But the awkward truth about Koalinga is that despite the best intentions

802
00:57:54,380 --> 00:57:58,380
of the psychologists and social workers, most of the people here,

803
00:57:58,380 --> 00:58:01,380
even those in treatment, will never get out.

804
00:58:01,380 --> 00:58:07,380
And so the main function of this hospital has become less about treating sex offenders

805
00:58:07,380 --> 00:58:09,380
than containing them.

806
00:58:09,380 --> 00:58:14,380
Here most of them will live, in comfort and confinement, until the end of their days.

807
00:58:14,380 --> 00:58:29,380
If you've been affected by the issues raised in this programme,

808
00:58:29,380 --> 00:58:32,380
and would like sources of information and support,

809
00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:38,380
you can call the BBC Action Line in confidence on 08000 155 327.

810
00:58:38,380 --> 00:58:42,380
Calls are free from a landline, though mobile operators will charge,

811
00:58:42,380 --> 00:58:44,380
and lines are open 24 hours a day.

812
00:58:44,380 --> 00:58:51,080
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813
00:58:52,380 --> 00:58:53,380
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814
00:58:53,380 --> 00:58:54,380
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815
00:58:54,380 --> 00:58:56,380
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816
00:58:56,380 --> 00:58:57,380
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817
00:58:57,380 --> 00:58:58,380
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818
00:58:58,380 --> 00:58:59,380
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819
00:58:59,380 --> 00:59:01,380
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820
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821
00:59:03,380 --> 00:59:05,180
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