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My name is Jan Harzan. I'm the Executive Director for MUFON.
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We are a scientific research organization that basically collects
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sighting reports from the public and then goes and investigates them.
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Our mission statement as an organization is the scientific study
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of UFOs for the benefit of humanity. And we have three primary goals.
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We investigate UFO reports, we promote research into the UFO subject,
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and we educate the public on our findings.
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Music
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This case, for those who are familiar, it keeps giving us gifts every year.
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It just keeps revealing new stuff. And as was mentioned, we've been working
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with Ray Stanford now. And for those who don't know who Ray is,
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he's been involved in ufology from the beginning when the term was coined.
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He was fortunate enough to be involved in this case because he was
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personal friends with Dr. Hynek. Ben, when you think about Ray's history,
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it's like what was the first thing that comes to your mind?
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He's still alive. Ray's a very eccentric person. He can be difficult to deal with,
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but he's a good guy. He's a self-made Renaissance man. He has no PhD,
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but he's in National Geographic magazine this month with one of the most amazing
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dinosaur discoveries inside the Beltway that's ever been found.
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Forty-four footprints, never been dinosaur footprints found inside the Beltway.
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It's in National Geographic, I think page 93. But Ray's a Renaissance man.
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The Smithsonian comes over to look at his collection of dinosaur bones and meteorites.
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The guy is really sharp. He gets a lot of criticism, but when you meet him,
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you realize he's a very deep thinker. He's a very smart man,
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and he investigated this case really well, and we were happy to meet him.
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So we're going to get this thing started. We have about an hour and fifteen minutes,
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and we're going to take you through this whole case and show you some of the new evidence
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and what we're planning to do next year. How many people know Kevin Randall?
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You guys are more familiar? So you know that he came out with this book here based on talking with us.
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Ben, why don't you let him know a little bit about how that came about?
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Yeah, as most UFO researchers, getting it long in the tooth, you've got to wear the glasses.
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So Kevin's book, Encounter in the Desert, is based a lot on our research and Ray's research and Kevin's research.
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I'll tell you what Kevin says in the beginning of the book.
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So basically, I'm going to read the book.
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So basically,
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Kevin thought it was a one witness case, and then when we told him, among many things,
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that three people had called the police station reporting a white flaming object heading towards Socorro
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before the Lanias and Moores incident, he was intrigued.
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And so he dug in, and what he found was, and I won't go into a lot of detail, but I'll give you a couple,
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and we've been investigating this. I had heard about other cases of an egg-shaped craft in this time zone,
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in this area at that time. So one of them happened in the Levin sightings in November 1957,
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and this is interesting because this was described as a 100-foot-long red egg-shaped object that was sitting on the road.
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And several people saw it, but then a sheriff who ventured to search for the object saw it.
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In 1957, he said it was a streak of light in the distance, but he later suggested to friends and family
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that he'd been much closer and seen much more detail.
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He told the Air Force, two hours after the sighting in Liplam, military police at White Sands reported
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they'd seen an object land close to them. Now, this I had heard about, but this was another egg-shaped craft
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that landed at the White Sands testing range, which is near Socorro. It's a huge range.
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Twelve hours later, another patrol at White Sands in a similar location reported that they watched a UFO.
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And the thing is that in this time zone, you had a lot of things happening.
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You had the supposed landing at Hollerman Air Force Base with Eisenhower, maybe meeting aliens.
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I don't know about that, but basically egg shapes is not a common shape for a craft.
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And so to have all these sightings in one area in one time frame or in about a 10-year time frame
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kind of makes this case a little bit more solid.
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So to get this started, for those of you not familiar with it, we have a short video that James Fox put together.
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If you don't know who he is, he's working on this film called 701, which is about the Blue Book cases,
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the 701 cases the Blue Book said, and it was 12,600 cases, 701 that could not be explained.
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And this is one of them. So James Fox put together this video here.
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That was a police officer, Lonnie Zamora. That's right.
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In Sacramento, New Mexico. He was following a speeder.
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As he was following the speeder, he saw off to his right in the southwest, he saw a brilliant kind of a blue-white flame.
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It looked like it might be dropping down or descending. He didn't understand it.
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So he was following a speeder.
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And turned to the southwest up a hill.
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When I got up on top of the mesa there, I looked down and I seen this big white object on the ground.
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I could see some figures.
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Lonnie told me that he had seen some small beings that looked like children around the craft.
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He wandered more than about three feet away from the scene.
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He just could not compute at that moment what this thing was, other than it was raising vertically straight up.
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And at that time nobody knew what a UFO was.
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That's when they started putting it on the papers.
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The unusual size of the octopus. I knew that the government, nobody else, hires midgets to fly on their secret flight project.
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There were two sets of foot prints I saw on my eyes.
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That's about the size of it.
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It happened right here.
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And I was here 15 minutes after.
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And I saw this ordering. I saw the foot print.
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And I saw the size of it.
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And I saw the size of it.
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And I saw the size of it.
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And I saw the size of it.
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And I saw this ordering. I saw the footprints.
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I saw the imprints of me.
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The behavior of the technology, the way it rose up on this mysterious ground-knocking plane.
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The way it flew off Arsani without a sound, at least as far as Samurica here.
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The way it climbed to beyond supersonic speed.
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All of these things suggest that it was by no means a 1964 technology.
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And in fact, there's nothing today that could duplicate that technology.
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This is the best documented close encounter of the third time that has ever been.
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So that's the synopsis there.
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Now we're going to get granular about all these little details.
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This picture I like because Lonnie is about a couple hundred feet away here.
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And he sees these figures standing by a creosite bush, which is no more than four feet tall.
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And their heads were barely clearing that bush.
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So that's how he was able, as a police officer, to be very accurate in his detailed explanation that these figures...
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And he didn't say they were people. He didn't know what they were.
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He just said they were figures. He's trying to be very objective about this.
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White coveralls.
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White coveralls is what he described.
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So we saw this for a quick second.
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Now keep in mind, this whole sighting lasted three minutes.
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I know it sounds crazy because we go into so much detail about this that it seems like, oh, this must have taken like hours.
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Three minutes is what it was.
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And that's how fast everything happened.
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From the time he saw it across the road to the point where he got up to 30 feet.
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He parked his car about 50 feet away, but he got out of his car.
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He got as close as 30, maybe 35 feet to see the object.
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And what he saw on the side of the object is something we're going to talk about later, which is a symbol.
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So you saw that's Lonnie's perspective there.
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And then here is a perspective looking from the other direction of these figures looking back at the car.
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And he did say that when he was looking, one of the...
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That's why we like this drawing.
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One of them looks startled.
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It looked and then kind of went like that.
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Like, you know, they thought they were alone.
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And so that's why we like this because there's Lonnie and there's the guy kind of looking like he's not liking what he's seeing.
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And my theory is that their GPS is broken.
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They landed in the wrong place because they quickly got back in.
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They said, well, this is the worst.
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Grace says they mistook the dynamite shack for a bathroom.
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You never know. It's possible.
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So this next slide here is the actual...
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This photograph has been shown many times.
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It's really poor quality.
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And Ben acquired this from Rob Mercer.
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He'll tell you that story in a minute.
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But it's one of the best photographs of the actual landing site during that time.
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It was shortly after the event took place.
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You can still see the rocks marking the quadrillion, the quad landing.
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And then this is probably the old defense for Chieftain's, the editor's car.
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And that's where we parked our car.
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So when we went out there, we put our car in the exact same spot pretty much.
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Of course, mine shot zoomed in a little bit.
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But I'm standing right at where the where those feet were.
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Actually, do you want to mention really quick about Rob Mercer's information?
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Yeah, what happened was Rob Mercer, the the investigator,
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move on investigator in Ohio.
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He found on Craigslist Blue Book files.
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And what happened was Lieutenant Holder, who was a major...
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He was uprange commander at White Sands at the time.
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Blue Book assigned him to the case.
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He was one of the first investigators there.
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You'll see more about him.
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But his son was moving.
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And the house that they sold, this box was there.
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And Lieutenant Murano, I believe, is the one that had the file, had the box.
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And Rob, when Kevin Randall got involved, this all kind of came out in an interview.
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But basically the box was found in his house.
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Murano, who was on Project Blue Book, said, there's nothing classified in this, so you can have it.
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And so he went and picked it up.
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And sure enough, it was filled with footage of various UFO sightings like the Trimantine UFO in Montana and all the Blue Book files.
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But the problem is that a lot of the Blue Book files concerning Socorro are not in the actual Blue Book files itself.
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So and I got into a little bit of an argument with Kevin about this because these are part of the Blue Book files, but they're not in the official file that was released.
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And that's very interesting.
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And there's a lot of cases that never made Blue Book because there was a memo that found that said, you know, more important cases are not part of Project Blue Book.
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They go somewhere else.
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So the documents we got are handwritten notes on the...
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And how bad was the spelling on some of that stuff?
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Yeah, it was poorly written.
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It's funny because it was kind of stream of consciousness writing.
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But these are all the investigators investigating a case, writing notes and taking all this dictation and spelling things wrong.
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And it's very interesting because...
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Just not accurate detail.
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It gives us a timeline and it gives us kind of an inside personal look on how Blue Book was getting along with this case.
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So this next short video shows Richard Holder talking about Lonnie Zamora in the case.
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And it's really interesting that...
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He was the upper-inch commander.
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Upper-inch commander, yeah.
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Well, you already mentioned all that.
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Is that loud enough?
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Let's see.
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I think I have to do it over here.
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I'm trying to see where to do it from here without killing the whole thing.
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It's all the way up.
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Let me see if I can make this louder.
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It's all the way up.
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I guess there's no way that it can be louder.
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Let's see.
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Let's start over.
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Okay.
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Within 90 minutes, US Army officials at nearby White Sands Missile Range sent Captain Richard T. Holder to investigate.
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This is the first time Holder has ever talked publicly about what he saw.
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Well, my first impression was that it was something from the range that needed possible help.
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You know, first aid, attention, or at best security.
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The more I got into it, the less convinced I was that that was the case we looked around to try to find out if we could see any evidence of anything that would make us think it was a hoax.
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We found nothing.
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Everything we saw seemed to support the story that Officer Zamora recounted.
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My impression of talking to him was that he was mystified.
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He wanted an explanation.
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Nothing that I heard of later gave me the slightest hint that he did this as a hoax or cooked it up for fame or fortune.
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I believe that Lonnie Zamora was a good policeman and an honest man who reported, as he felt proper, something well beyond his experience.
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Was it something terrestrial, an extraterrestrial? I have no idea.
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This is Hector Quintanilla who basically liked to debunk everything.
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He even looks a little pissed off in this photo.
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I think that's an alien in the ashtray, but that could be photoshopped.
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But this is Blue Book.
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Blue Book was not a big organization.
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There were like four people that rotated.
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There were various people in the organization, but they didn't have a big budget.
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They weren't this great investigative team.
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They were primarily, Blue Book was just a thing to explain cases and throw them under the rug.
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It wasn't really a serious investigation.
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There has been a document, as I mentioned, found that said that the more serious cases don't even go to Blue Book.
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They go to Armory Materiel and some of the three later agencies.
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But that's it.
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And that expression says it all.
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He just probably hated having that picture taken.
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You want to tell me about how Project Blue Book got started there?
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It was originally Project Sign.
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Project Sign became Project Grudge.
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Interesting name, Grudge.
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And then it became Blue Book.
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Blue Book was terminated in 1969 after the Condon Report,
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which was basically a BS job by Edward Condon to explain UFOs.
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They were supposed to investigate a lot of cases.
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And if you read the new book about Heineck, they didn't look at any cases.
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There were a lot of people on that condom committee that were very interested, but he kind of shut them down.
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He'd already made a statement saying that, you know, I don't believe there's anything to it,
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but I have to go through the process of investigating.
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It's $500,000 wasted.
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It was basically a sham.
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This picture is really neat.
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Our investigator that works with an enormous gang, if anyone's familiar, he's really good with Photoshop.
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I wish I was that good.
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He did our T-shirts.
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Yeah.
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And he did a really good job of putting this together.
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What I like about this is that it shows the dust.
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Some people were trying to, you know, you get all these TV shows talking about this case,
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and they always get it wrong, saying they were shooting flames and smoke.
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It was a smokeless blue-orange flame, and it kicked up dust.
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And we're going to get into what some of the reports of people saw at a distance.
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It wasn't smoke.
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It was actually dust because it was a smokeless flame.
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What's interesting, I wanted to interject, was that, you know, when we go to other plants,
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we have one engine that takes us there, another engine lands us.
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This is similar.
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This blue-knifing flame was some type of propulsion that lifted it up,
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but then that went silent, and that shut off.
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And the rest of the time when it flew away and reached supersonic speed, it was completely silent.
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So this might be a terrestrial engine if this is not of this world.
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And then the secondary engine was something that operates up in the atmosphere.
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It was like a high-frequency type pitch.
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It was a high-frequency pitch and several loud explosions that made Lonnie hit the ground.
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His Army training was basically getting him, you know, when he hit the ground,
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he thought the thing was going to explode.
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You know, this case has a little bit of everything in it.
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I mean, how often do you hear about someone driving their car with their family
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and a UFO almost taking off, you know, the roof?
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Remember Opel Grindr?
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You know, Opel Grindr had a gas station in Socorro, and what happened was a family of five,
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a husband and wife, and their three boys in the backseat pulled up.
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And basically he said, you know, you've got some low-flying aircraft around here.
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One just about took my roof off.
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And Opel goes, what are you talking about?
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He goes, something flew over our car really close.
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And Opel asked him if it was a helicopter, and the gentleman said if it was, it was a funny-looking one.
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And then he said a police officer was going after it.
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So he was a witness that saw the unfolding of the beginning of this event
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when Lonnie Zamora started chasing this object.
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So we have a lot of interesting stuff about this case.
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There were three callers that between 5 and 15 and 530 down.
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That was a new piece of information that nobody really knew about.
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Because Martinez, which was a dispatcher, you know, we started asking the questions,
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and Ray started looking into it as well.
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He said, yeah, there were three calls from, you know, 515 and 530 that, you know,
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back in the day you don't have, you know, smartphones.
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You really didn't have a sophisticated CB system.
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Everything was pretty much old school.
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And nothing was logged.
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Who called at what time? What was their name? Their last name? Their phone number?
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Let alone their address.
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You know, we didn't have any of this information to go on.
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People would just call. It was such a random event.
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It's not something anybody was really used to.
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Not even by today's standards, but at least today we have some technology to help
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log these calls. I mean, you like to ask the question, you know, who are you?
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But there's family of five that Ben just mentioned.
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Hundreds that heard the roar, according to Ray's book.
19:57.000 --> 20:00.000
Sergeant Chavez, who initially didn't want anything to do with this,
20:00.000 --> 20:03.000
and say he didn't see anything, he actually did see something.
20:03.000 --> 20:06.000
He admitted to his fellow police officers later on.
20:06.000 --> 20:08.000
But he saw how Lonnie was being treated.
20:08.000 --> 20:10.000
And he was probably wrapped up in that whole thing.
20:10.000 --> 20:12.000
Many others saw a similar crowd before and after the event.
20:12.000 --> 20:14.000
We're going to talk about that.
20:14.000 --> 20:16.000
And then there's Paul Keyes and Larry Kratzer.
20:16.000 --> 20:20.000
And these two guys, they were driving, I think it was like north, northwest.
20:20.000 --> 20:22.000
And they saw like this thing taking off.
20:22.000 --> 20:25.000
And what they thought was smoke was really the dust that I was mentioning earlier.
20:25.000 --> 20:33.000
And so it was multiple witnesses that are very credible in this case.
20:33.000 --> 20:35.000
Right here, as you can see, he's kind of whitewashed out.
20:35.000 --> 20:38.000
But that's Lonnie in plain clothes, out the side, just days after.
20:38.000 --> 20:42.000
That's the bush that was sliced in half, at the center of the craft.
20:42.000 --> 20:44.000
They're standing inside that quadrangle.
20:44.000 --> 20:47.000
And that's Sergeant Chavez in the full police outfit.
20:47.000 --> 20:49.000
And that's Ray Stanford with the Elvis hairdo.
20:49.000 --> 20:50.000
And he's standing over.
20:50.000 --> 20:52.000
You see the shadow on his foot?
20:52.000 --> 20:56.000
That's because that's the crater where this thing was coming in.
20:56.000 --> 20:58.000
You can really see a difference there.
20:58.000 --> 21:03.000
And when it lifted off, it apparently cut this creosite bush in half with that blue flame.
21:03.000 --> 21:05.000
These things do not burn easily.
21:05.000 --> 21:06.000
They don't.
21:06.000 --> 21:07.000
It takes a lot of heat to burn.
21:07.000 --> 21:09.000
They're full of resin.
21:09.000 --> 21:11.000
So now we move on to the investigation.
21:11.000 --> 21:16.000
This is Ray in his living room, talking in his own words about the investigation.
21:16.000 --> 21:20.000
And I thought it was really cool because you're not going to get this chance too often.
21:20.000 --> 21:22.000
And we spent hundreds of hours with Ray.
21:22.000 --> 21:24.000
We've gone to countless lunches.
21:24.000 --> 21:27.000
We've tried every Tex-Mex restaurant in the area.
21:27.000 --> 21:28.000
We know what he likes.
21:28.000 --> 21:31.000
We know what he doesn't like for food.
21:31.000 --> 21:34.000
And we were always hoping to see something with him because he's kind of an attractor.
21:34.000 --> 21:37.000
We'd be driving, looking up, doing like this.
21:37.000 --> 21:40.000
Ben's got his phone ready and his camera.
21:40.000 --> 21:45.000
So this is really a unique opportunity to see, or see in here, Ray.
21:45.000 --> 21:46.000
He's 79 now.
21:46.000 --> 21:49.000
Yeah, so if this isn't loud enough, I'll put the mic back over there.
21:54.000 --> 21:57.000
Talking about Tuesday, the 29th of April.
21:57.000 --> 21:58.000
Loud enough?
21:58.000 --> 21:59.000
1964.
21:59.000 --> 22:05.000
Now, I've been invited on the police radio by Dr. Heineck to come out to the site
22:05.000 --> 22:13.000
over the protest of Sergeant Sam Schaubes of the Mexico State Police, whose car Heineck and Samora had arrived at the site earlier.
22:13.000 --> 22:15.000
And so I came out there.
22:15.000 --> 22:25.000
And at that point, the police car was up at the top, about 50 feet from the actual center of the landing site.
22:25.000 --> 22:32.000
And right on the edge, not 100 feet away, not 150 feet away, as Harrison's accounts say, it was about 50 feet away.
22:32.000 --> 22:34.000
Now, I'll explain what happened.
22:34.000 --> 22:41.000
After we went over Barrett Sank down to the landing site, which I covered completely in my book,
22:41.000 --> 22:45.000
we went back up the ravine and the police car.
22:45.000 --> 22:49.000
And Heineck was explaining to me, I had Schaubes park his car right.
22:49.000 --> 22:52.000
Lonnie was with us, of course, they ride all three of them together in that car.
22:52.000 --> 22:55.000
It was a state police car. Lonnie, you see, wasn't on duty.
22:55.000 --> 22:57.000
That's why they weren't in the city police car.
22:57.000 --> 22:58.000
Lonnie wasn't on duty.
22:58.000 --> 23:02.000
He's in plain clothes in the picture with me and Schaubes and him that was released recently.
23:02.000 --> 23:07.000
That CIA document is kind of funny after 52 years.
23:07.000 --> 23:12.000
But the CIA released recently, it was Ray, Lonnie, and Sergeant Schaubes.
23:12.000 --> 23:21.000
So all the weird, he said he had parked right there exactly where, with the kind of orientation he had during the actual event.
23:21.000 --> 23:26.000
And somebody, I think, some more shows something open the door.
23:26.000 --> 23:31.000
And the doer explained how he got out and he took a few steps and he showed us.
23:31.000 --> 23:35.000
He said, the doer started and I threw myself on the ground.
23:35.000 --> 23:37.000
This is the part the Air Force gets wrong every time.
23:37.000 --> 23:40.000
They only mention the fact that he threw himself on the ground.
23:40.000 --> 23:42.000
You don't find this in the Air Force account that he did.
23:42.000 --> 23:46.000
What you find out is that he bumped the back of the car and knocked his glasses off and kind of stumbled.
23:46.000 --> 23:53.000
And he drew himself and he's the words in a prone position as he had been taught in the military.
23:53.000 --> 23:58.000
You hear the explanation, you throw yourself down low as you can on the ground in a prone position.
23:58.000 --> 24:02.000
He had his head turned to the right and his head was thrown to the floor.
24:02.000 --> 24:05.000
And he drew himself and he showed us exactly where he did this.
24:05.000 --> 24:12.000
Then Alan Heineck said to me, Ray, would you mind pacing it off from right there to the burn of the bush?
24:17.000 --> 24:21.000
The burn of the bush was right in the center of the landing quadrangle.
24:21.000 --> 24:25.000
And so I paced it off.
24:25.000 --> 24:38.000
And using my glib distance, which I was good at estimating, he was not more than 35 feet, probably almost exactly 35 feet from the center of the object.
24:38.000 --> 24:42.000
When he hit the ground, he was, now keep in mind, he had his glasses on.
24:42.000 --> 24:50.000
They weren't knocked off until he got up from the prone position when the thing had, he realized it wasn't exploding and he was running.
24:50.000 --> 24:52.000
He hit the back of the car and knocked his glasses off.
24:52.000 --> 24:56.000
He had them on when he looked at him, when he got out of the car, when he opened the door.
24:56.000 --> 25:04.000
When he was facing it and the roar started and he threw himself in the opposite direction and down on the ground in a prone position.
25:05.000 --> 25:15.000
I think, if I remember correctly, about 15 feet from the car, 50 feet total to the center of the landing, where the exhaust had played and burned part of the chrysalis bush.
25:15.000 --> 25:18.000
So Heineck watched me.
25:18.000 --> 25:26.000
We stepped it off and we concluded that was 35 feet, 35, 36 feet there that he watched from it.
25:26.000 --> 25:31.000
Now that is far closer than in the Air Force report and anything we see.
25:31.000 --> 25:34.000
But it's the truth because Chavez was there.
25:34.000 --> 25:42.000
He knew where the car was parked. He knew where the car was parked when he was the next person to arrive and about to police call.
25:42.000 --> 25:57.000
And I should add this, that I didn't discuss it with Chavez, but every policeman I talked to on the Sinclair police force told me that Chavez, because he heard the police call, he was coming up the slope and he saw the object high in the sky.
25:57.000 --> 26:03.000
And it was going away. And I'm confident that he did because they all told me exactly the same story.
26:03.000 --> 26:10.000
They said, they said Santa doesn't want to talk about it because he wishes this never happened to like some more.
26:10.000 --> 26:18.000
I said, he also he doesn't like investigators coming here because he thinks this must have been a government project or some sort.
26:18.000 --> 26:21.000
And he didn't want to talk about it. But he saw it.
26:22.000 --> 26:28.000
They said that he said it was just so you see it, you know, this is a elliptical ellipsoidal object.
26:28.000 --> 26:31.000
As you see the drawing in my book and all the other doors.
26:31.000 --> 26:37.000
And as it went up and going up like this, he's looking right in the open.
26:37.000 --> 26:42.000
So you just seeing a little round object going away at high speed up into the sky.
26:43.000 --> 26:52.000
The approximate coordinate of the pearlite mill over to the West and it's hanging up steeply and very steeply into the sky.
26:52.000 --> 27:02.000
So Chavez did see it. I'm confident that even though I did not ask him, I knew I'd already been advised by the police about his attitude on it.
27:02.000 --> 27:05.000
But Chavez saw it. I'm sure.
27:05.000 --> 27:09.000
And anyway, the distance is indisputable.
27:09.000 --> 27:14.000
Why does the Air Force not tell you that 35 feet from him?
27:14.000 --> 27:16.000
How do you do this? Why isn't it in the report?
27:16.000 --> 27:19.000
Well, the reports you see the Air Force file.
27:19.000 --> 27:29.000
The major thing you see is this thing that Captain Richard T. Holder wrote out with the FBI agents standing right there in the room with him.
27:29.000 --> 27:36.000
And they put in exactly what they want.
27:36.000 --> 27:44.000
And they asked the more to we know for sure that Richard T. Holder asked them are to obviously the red and simple as God something else.
27:44.000 --> 27:47.000
They came to a conclusion. And that's what's drawn in the report.
27:47.000 --> 27:50.000
That is the arc of the arrow.
27:51.000 --> 27:53.000
It is not what he saw.
27:53.000 --> 27:54.000
So more is the original report.
27:54.000 --> 28:00.000
The police officers was that the signal on the side was large, two to three feet across.
28:00.000 --> 28:09.000
And let me tell you that at 50 feet from his car and at 35 feet from where he was facing it before the road started, he saw that as plain as day.
28:09.000 --> 28:12.000
They conclude that it was probably a lunar lander.
28:12.000 --> 28:13.000
Imagine this.
28:13.000 --> 28:17.000
Why do you a lunar lander that would hardly hover at that state development?
28:17.000 --> 28:18.000
Maybe it wasn't.
28:18.000 --> 28:28.000
You certainly went up like you don't fly all the way from Holland Air Force Base all the way across the mountains and the terrain and landing in the back is the girls backyards.
28:28.000 --> 28:30.000
So to speak, it's completely insane.
28:30.000 --> 28:38.000
And it certainly could not take off and reach what what engineer calculated supersonic speed and high speed going straight up.
28:38.000 --> 28:45.000
If you take nothing else away from this, realize how meticulously accurate he is about granular detail.
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He's always speaking in terms of exact footage, exact sizes.
28:48.000 --> 28:51.000
He doesn't say anything about this about he's it was like 35 feet.
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You know, I paced off my foot.
28:53.000 --> 28:59.000
It was 50 feet from you know, he goes in a great, great length to measure and be very accurate with his mathematics.
28:59.000 --> 29:03.000
When his book, which we have copies of out there, is very detailed.
29:03.000 --> 29:07.000
Even Heineck, when they went out there, didn't have any when they were taking samples.
29:07.000 --> 29:08.000
He's like, you got anything?
29:08.000 --> 29:11.000
And Ray opens his trunk and he's got sealed bottles and plastic bags.
29:11.000 --> 29:12.000
He's got everything with him.
29:12.000 --> 29:13.000
So that's how they got all the samples.
29:13.000 --> 29:16.000
If Ray wasn't there, they wouldn't have gotten the samples that they did.
29:16.000 --> 29:18.000
It's just amazing.
29:18.000 --> 29:24.000
So our next slide here, I think we already talked about this one, didn't we?
29:24.000 --> 29:25.000
Yeah.
29:25.000 --> 29:27.000
I think I forgot to delete that slide.
29:27.000 --> 29:29.000
So Ben, talk to us about the symbol.
29:29.000 --> 29:31.000
What's what's going on with this?
29:31.000 --> 29:34.000
This is where Kevin Rannelly got into a nice argument.
29:35.000 --> 29:43.000
He still believes that this one right here, that Holder and Barnes pretty much coerced Lonnie into signing, is the real symbol.
29:43.000 --> 29:48.000
And that's Lonnie's signature, but we don't think that's his writing on the rest of this.
29:48.000 --> 29:50.000
There's certainly this writing there.
29:50.000 --> 29:55.000
Now, the thing about this is the reason for obscuring the symbol is pretty easy.
29:55.000 --> 30:02.000
And Lieutenant Holder's son told Ray that his father had said that he told Lonnie to put out the false symbol.
30:02.000 --> 30:08.000
The reason is if somebody else reported an egg-shaped object and they reported that symbol, then they were lying.
30:08.000 --> 30:13.000
If they reported the inverted V with three bars, then they probably saw the craft.
30:13.000 --> 30:19.000
So when I started Googling this, I was getting radiation symbols that are similar, three bars, three triangles.
30:19.000 --> 30:30.000
My thought that Ray kind of agrees with is that since this symbol was located and that arrow was pretty much pointing to the center of the vehicle where that blue flame was,
30:30.000 --> 30:33.000
this could basically mean don't stand here, radiation.
30:33.000 --> 30:36.000
It's red. It looks like a radiation symbol.
30:36.000 --> 30:41.000
This is all conjecture, you know, but it could be basically like, you know, don't stand behind a truck.
30:41.000 --> 30:44.000
It backs up. It could just say this is dangerous.
30:44.000 --> 30:47.000
There's radiation located here. Don't stand there.
30:47.000 --> 30:53.000
This right here, which we'll show you, is Hynek's drawing from the National Archives of the Semble.
30:53.000 --> 30:58.000
And we have an audio clip here of Hynek talking to Schroed.
30:58.000 --> 31:01.000
Stop a second.
31:01.000 --> 31:06.000
Walter Schroed was the local radio station.
31:06.000 --> 31:09.000
And this interview is like days after the event.
31:09.000 --> 31:14.000
How about this marking gun? Could you tell us how he described the marking gun and what the marking was?
31:14.000 --> 31:19.000
Yes, I said no reason why not. He described it to me as an inverted green.
31:19.000 --> 31:27.000
So it's all far across it. And as he described it and drew it, the thing is I was reminded of it as a typical brand.
31:27.000 --> 31:31.000
You have a check out of a brand that exists.
31:31.000 --> 31:36.000
So that's the Hynek emblem in the middle that he was describing.
31:36.000 --> 31:40.000
It's funny because people hear things and they take something differently from it.
31:40.000 --> 31:45.000
And we kept asking Ray, we have something interesting after this.
31:45.000 --> 31:48.000
I don't want to mess up the flow of this, but go ahead and go on about this one.
31:48.000 --> 31:52.000
So Ray and James Fox go to the National Archives. They didn't want to let him in.
31:52.000 --> 32:00.000
Ray pointed out that the CIA's picture showed Stanford was the original investigator.
32:00.000 --> 32:04.000
And so they decided that he could look at it. He put on the white gloves.
32:04.000 --> 32:08.000
And this is the document, you showed this picture, which is CIA released.
32:08.000 --> 32:14.000
This is the document of Hynek's writing and there's the symbol right there.
32:14.000 --> 32:17.000
Written in September 7, 1964.
32:17.000 --> 32:23.000
Here is from Ray Mercer's file, the written notes from the Blue Book file that weren't in the Blue Book file.
32:23.000 --> 32:29.000
There's the symbol cleaned up, but that's what's in the file. Written on notes that were never supposed to be made public.
32:29.000 --> 32:31.000
And then talk about this one.
32:31.000 --> 32:34.000
This is something we've never been seen before. We just got this from Ray a couple of days ago.
32:34.000 --> 32:42.000
Ray's field notes, when they said the three bars with the inverted V, he had two ideas because Hynek kind of drew it up here.
32:42.000 --> 32:46.000
But this is from Ray's field notes at the time where he drew this symbol.
32:46.000 --> 32:48.000
As Lonnie described it.
32:48.000 --> 32:55.000
So Lonnie was a patriot. So when they told him to put out this false symbol, he stuck to his guns.
32:55.000 --> 32:59.000
He never said that it was false. He did mention it to his daughter.
32:59.000 --> 33:03.000
But basically he was doing what the army told him because he was former army.
33:03.000 --> 33:11.000
Now when Ben and I went out to Sikora to investigate, we went to the El Chieftain Defensor and they gave us access to all the original documents.
33:11.000 --> 33:16.000
I was shocked because we had this beautiful, never before touched piece of newspaper.
33:16.000 --> 33:20.000
And the guy that was helping is our tour guide who actually works there.
33:20.000 --> 33:23.000
He grabs it, goes to turn it, rips it, rips a part of it.
33:23.000 --> 33:28.000
I was like, I was thinking it's like a national treasure, but this guy just carelessly just ripping through it.
33:28.000 --> 33:31.000
Years worth of newspaper articles that we photographed all over.
33:31.000 --> 33:39.000
What I thought was interesting is it says right there that Lonnie is describing a red marking like an upside down V with three lines across the top.
33:39.000 --> 33:41.000
Or a fundamental at the bottom.
33:41.000 --> 33:46.000
So again, it's like that's nothing to do with that arch shape. It's clearly something the Air Force came up with.
33:46.000 --> 33:48.000
And then we came across this.
33:49.000 --> 33:54.000
Yeah, Dr. Hynek said he would determine there was something happened in Espanola,
33:54.000 --> 34:03.000
which was a ground landing of something with a smoldering bush and four wedge shape indentations exactly like the Sikora incident.
34:03.000 --> 34:05.000
So we're digging into this.
34:05.000 --> 34:09.000
We've got another case to investigate in addition to the Littlin case.
34:09.000 --> 34:14.000
But there were a couple of hoaxes at this time as people wanted notoriety after the story came out.
34:14.000 --> 34:17.000
But that's interesting. It's something we're going to look into.
34:17.000 --> 34:19.000
It's the case that keeps on giving.
34:19.000 --> 34:20.000
It really does.
34:20.000 --> 34:25.000
This is interesting because a lot of people said it was the Astro Power was a company that was around the time.
34:25.000 --> 34:27.000
This is what they saw on the side of the vehicle.
34:27.000 --> 34:32.000
Well, Astro Power, basically, they were trying to get advanced propulsion systems development.
34:32.000 --> 34:36.000
They never built anything that fluked. They built software.
34:36.000 --> 34:42.000
So this is one of those things, just like with the hoax theory of these guys throwing a balloon up that was thrown out there.
34:42.000 --> 34:45.000
People latched onto it and ran with it.
34:45.000 --> 34:48.000
But when you do a little bit of homework, this has nothing to do with it.
34:48.000 --> 34:53.000
There was no craft built. There was nothing related to Astro Power on the symbol.
34:53.000 --> 34:58.000
But it's a way for people to kind of explain this.
34:58.000 --> 35:05.000
This was just a picture we want to put up there because we're trying to feel what Lonnie could have seen and how close he might have been standing.
35:05.000 --> 35:07.000
But to me, that's plain as day.
35:07.000 --> 35:12.000
Okay. And if he saw, if he was anywhere near this close and saw that, how can you possibly forget that?
35:12.000 --> 35:15.000
He didn't see his door, but that was probably on the other side.
35:15.000 --> 35:21.000
Because that's where, when he was there and the loud roar came up, he heard two slams.
35:21.000 --> 35:25.000
The creatures had been there, but they weren't there. He saw them only at the distance.
35:25.000 --> 35:30.000
The two slams reminded him of a tank. You have sometimes an inner and an outer hull.
35:30.000 --> 35:33.000
So he thinks that an outer door slammed and they slammed the inner hull door.
35:33.000 --> 35:36.000
And that was the two slams that he heard.
35:36.000 --> 35:40.000
This next item I'm meant to modify because we're going to hear the recording in a minute.
35:40.000 --> 35:43.000
I don't want to play it now, but this is on the back of our shirts.
35:43.000 --> 35:46.000
The Norm Gagnon design for us.
35:46.000 --> 35:51.000
What I like the most about this is not so much the creatures or the egg shape, but rather the wedge of the footprint.
35:51.000 --> 35:54.000
Because it's actually, you know, it's pretty accurate as to what went into the ground.
35:54.000 --> 35:58.000
Can you imagine that pointed shape with 30 tons behind it? It could just crush anything.
35:58.000 --> 36:01.000
That's how we got, it was like four or five broken rocks.
36:01.000 --> 36:03.000
I think it was nine tons, they estimated it was the weight.
36:03.000 --> 36:06.000
Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to determine.
36:06.000 --> 36:09.000
But the wedge shape is, you know, we're landing in a rocky area.
36:09.000 --> 36:16.000
It's probably a good idea because it will slide into between rocks when you have all this, you know, in the desert.
36:16.000 --> 36:20.000
You don't want it, it's not going to land flat. It might have different elevations on it.
36:20.000 --> 36:22.000
So this kind of fit in with balancing.
36:22.000 --> 36:27.000
And when they measured the quadrangle from a physics standpoint,
36:27.000 --> 36:31.000
the legs matched perfectly with balancing this object, this ellipse-wide object.
36:31.000 --> 36:34.000
And also note that the front of it was tilted down.
36:34.000 --> 36:40.000
You know, when Lonnie was approaching it, the egg wasn't sitting flat straight across like you saw in this other picture here.
36:40.000 --> 36:45.000
It wasn't like that. This one here was tilted down, like just bowing down.
36:45.000 --> 36:51.000
And it's kind of weird because if you could think of that, then the propulsion mechanism is kind of coming out at an angle.
36:51.000 --> 36:55.000
And then the ladders all kind of skew up us and the doors kind of tilted.
36:55.000 --> 36:58.000
So it's kind of weird, you know, to imagine maybe something, maybe the hydraulics weren't working.
36:58.000 --> 37:08.000
Yeah, the one thing that actually came out two or three nights ago that James Fox said on Destination Truth with Josh Gates
37:08.000 --> 37:15.000
was that Holder had drawn, and what was on site was two round indentations, like a ladder had hit the ground,
37:15.000 --> 37:20.000
and it would come out, and then it moved when weight came down that ladder.
37:20.000 --> 37:26.000
And then there was these two parallel tracks that the creatures made that were kind of weird.
37:26.000 --> 37:33.000
They were kind of like this. And it's nowhere in the Blue Book Report, but it's in Holder's written notes about the footprints.
37:33.000 --> 37:38.000
So next we have the evidence. We're going to go into that.
37:38.000 --> 37:45.000
This is the original photograph. What's really interesting here is you see the edging of that, how it's very steep and very pointed,
37:45.000 --> 37:52.000
as if some foot was coming out, and as it's coming out, dirt's falling out around it, and it's leaving a nice ridge around it.
37:52.000 --> 37:59.000
When you see other photos where it's not as deep and it's not as pronounced, those were the recreations with the spaded shovel.
37:59.000 --> 38:02.000
This is the original. It was severely trampled.
38:02.000 --> 38:05.000
Do you want to go into this a little bit?
38:05.000 --> 38:08.000
Yeah, so do we have the picture of it? Is the next one?
38:08.000 --> 38:14.000
Oh yeah, we have a better picture on the next one. This one here.
38:14.000 --> 38:20.000
So this is the wedge-shaped object. This is an affidavit by Lonnie saying that they found this.
38:20.000 --> 38:26.000
Right where that arrow is, and this is really interesting, this is kind of a little bit about Heineck,
38:26.000 --> 38:30.000
anyway, they're all standing, Lonnie's walking away, and Lonnie goes, come over here.
38:30.000 --> 38:32.000
And Heineck and Ray Stanford go over.
38:32.000 --> 38:37.000
And Lonnie looks down at one of the four indentations and says, that rock looks like it was broken by one of the struts.
38:37.000 --> 38:40.000
And Dr. Heineck looks down and goes, sure, it sure does.
38:40.000 --> 38:43.000
And Ray's standing there waiting for something to happen, and nothing happens.
38:43.000 --> 38:45.000
And so Ray realizes, they're not going to do anything.
38:45.000 --> 38:50.000
So he reminds everybody that they got a press conference back in Socorro, it's about two miles away,
38:50.000 --> 38:52.000
and they all get in the car and go back.
38:52.000 --> 38:58.000
So Ray gets in the car, drives back, grabs the rock, puts it in the bag, and there's metal on it.
38:58.000 --> 39:02.000
Also, that's a transcription, if you want to know what that was, it's right there on the left.
39:02.000 --> 39:09.000
Basically, he was just talking about how he discovered the rock broken by the footprint.
39:09.000 --> 39:10.000
There it is.
39:10.000 --> 39:12.000
There it is right there, before he pulled it out.
39:12.000 --> 39:18.000
That's Ray's shadow right there, while everyone's still at the police station with the interview.
39:18.000 --> 39:20.000
So here we have the rock.
39:20.000 --> 39:24.000
Above is the original photograph, and below is what it looks like now.
39:24.000 --> 39:27.000
Yeah, they got her to scrape that thing completely clean.
39:27.000 --> 39:31.000
So since this is wedge-shaped, the theory is that this slid down the rock,
39:31.000 --> 39:35.000
and that's why some of the metal's rolled up, and then the weight broke.
39:35.000 --> 39:40.000
These little arrows are where the metal used to be, but there might be still some metal on the rock,
39:40.000 --> 39:42.000
and the rock is still here, we have the rock.
39:42.000 --> 39:45.000
This right here is vitrified crystal.
39:45.000 --> 39:50.000
It takes a lot of heat to vitrify a crystal, probably over 2,000 degrees,
39:50.000 --> 39:53.000
especially since the flame was on it for maybe two seconds.
39:53.000 --> 39:59.000
So the rock is still there, the metal, of course, disappeared, and I think we have Ray talking about that.
39:59.000 --> 40:02.000
Well, here we have some close-up shots taken before.
40:02.000 --> 40:03.000
That's the motion?
40:03.000 --> 40:08.000
Yeah, Ray was good enough to get a lot of photographs before he gave it to Goddard, and they did the analysis on it.
40:08.000 --> 40:13.000
This is the big piece that was lost when he was handing it off in Corpus Christi.
40:13.000 --> 40:17.000
It's a rolled piece, so if a foot's coming down against a rock and it's scraping like this,
40:17.000 --> 40:23.000
imagine the metal just kind of rolling off the foot of that landing pad.
40:23.000 --> 40:28.000
Like many UFO cases, it fell on the ground, they looked for hours and they couldn't find this piece.
40:28.000 --> 40:31.000
Here's a better representation of how it was sitting.
40:31.000 --> 40:32.000
See how it's tilted down, yeah.
40:32.000 --> 40:37.000
This is the quadrangle, the engine was right in the middle, the blue flame that knifed into the ground.
40:37.000 --> 40:43.000
The burn bush just kind of shows you where everything is from above ground look.
40:43.000 --> 40:46.000
And get a shot of the part of the rock there.
40:46.000 --> 40:50.000
That's where you need to get analyzed right there and find out what that is.
40:50.000 --> 40:51.000
That's the vitrified crystal.
40:51.000 --> 40:54.000
So now we have Ray talking about it with Heineck.
40:54.000 --> 40:57.000
Ray was a little mad at us for showing this.
40:57.000 --> 41:00.000
This is about a 44-minute video, but nobody else has a copy of this.
41:00.000 --> 41:03.000
This is Ray Stanford and Heineck talking about this Coral Incident.
41:03.000 --> 41:05.000
We're only playing like a minute of it.
41:05.000 --> 41:08.000
We've got to yell that already.
41:08.000 --> 41:09.000
We've got to yell that already.
41:09.000 --> 41:14.000
We should get on quickly to the real piece of the story.
41:14.000 --> 41:16.000
Can you hear it okay?
41:16.000 --> 41:23.000
The real thing was that the important thing was that when I came down to the surface there were metal slivers.
41:23.000 --> 41:28.000
Some smeared on and there were three that were rolled up in different directions.
41:28.000 --> 41:31.000
The landing gear seemed to have come down to the bottom.
41:31.000 --> 41:39.000
And these were subsequently taken by me along with Richard Hall of the National Investigations Committee on aerial phenomena.
41:39.000 --> 41:46.000
And Walter Webb to the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland.
41:46.000 --> 41:48.000
They were analyzed.
41:48.000 --> 41:56.000
Analysis was headed up by Dr. Henry Frankel, who was head of his department of the Space Materials Division at Goddard at that time.
41:56.000 --> 42:07.000
And according to his telephone report to me the next week, the slivers were comprised of an alloy that was an unusual one of zinc and iron.
42:07.000 --> 42:10.000
Now zinc and iron are of course by no means unusual.
42:10.000 --> 42:12.000
The way they were combined was unusual.
42:12.000 --> 42:18.000
In fact, Dr. Frankel said that he had checked the worldwide charts of alloys, including those from the Soviet Union,
42:18.000 --> 42:25.000
and that this alloy apparently at the time was not manufactured in any terrestrial foundries.
42:25.000 --> 42:36.000
He said, Ray, this would of course lend itself to, it would certainly tend to support the hypothesis, if you wanted to hypothesize, that the object did not originate only on the Earth.
42:36.000 --> 42:40.000
So I'm going to leave the microphone over there because we have another video right after this,
42:40.000 --> 42:49.000
but I want Ben to tell you a story about who Dr. Frankel is and how we got corroboration that what Dr. Frankel did for this metal actually is true.
42:49.000 --> 42:54.000
Dr. Frankel worked at Goddard. He knew his metals and he was, he's a scientist.
42:54.000 --> 42:58.000
And basically when he first talked to Ray, Ray could reach him on the phone.
42:58.000 --> 43:00.000
He said, you know, this material is non-corrosive.
43:00.000 --> 43:06.000
So it makes sense it was coating this landing gear because it was like gold, nothing affected.
43:06.000 --> 43:14.000
And of course, if something like that occurs and it's at Goddard, then it'll become classified, it'll disappear, which is exactly what happened.
43:14.000 --> 43:24.000
But years later, in fact, probably in the last year, Ray ran into another scientist who didn't know anything about UFOs, didn't care, didn't know about this case.
43:24.000 --> 43:31.000
Somehow they got a conversation with Frankel and the gentleman said, oh, yeah, that guy got sent to the woodshed for investigating UFO metal.
43:31.000 --> 43:37.000
And we heard from other people that he had to move down to the basement or the top corner of Goddard.
43:37.000 --> 43:40.000
But that's when Ray stopped getting communications from.
43:40.000 --> 43:45.000
And then another guy came out and said that it was silica, which you can't mistake metal for silica.
43:45.000 --> 43:49.000
There was nothing on the rock. It was scraped clean. They gave the rock back to Ray.
43:49.000 --> 44:01.000
This is the video that Ray is really angry at us for showing because Heineck kind of berates him a little bit for absconding with the metal and not telling him about it, because Ray didn't really trust Heineck enough yet at the time.
44:01.000 --> 44:08.000
And after the debacle at Goddard, you know, when Heineck found out about it, he was like, well, you should just trusted me and it wouldn't have happened.
44:08.000 --> 44:12.000
Then later he says, well, you know, it probably would have happened the same way.
44:12.000 --> 44:15.000
The metal will still be taken by the Air Force, you know, one way or the other.
44:15.000 --> 44:18.000
So this is really a rare video here.
44:18.000 --> 44:23.000
Well, the story is, as far as my recollection is concerned, entirely accurate.
44:23.000 --> 44:26.000
The films were indeed fogged.
44:26.000 --> 44:27.000
Those are the facts.
44:27.000 --> 44:35.000
The inference from that is that possibly the fogging was due to high radiation since he was there immediately afterwards and close to it.
44:35.000 --> 44:39.000
But I think the moral of the story, Ray, is always trust Heineck.
44:39.000 --> 44:47.000
And so maybe if you had showed me the version instead of absconding with him, maybe the Air Force would have also done exactly what NASA did.
44:47.000 --> 44:51.000
But there was a hope, there was always a possibility that I might have prevented that.
44:51.000 --> 44:54.000
But that's all, how many years ago now?
44:54.000 --> 44:56.000
Well, twelve years ago.
44:56.000 --> 44:59.000
And I think you trust more today than you did then.
44:59.000 --> 45:02.000
Right, and there's much more water under the grave.
45:02.000 --> 45:04.000
Right, certainly is.
45:04.000 --> 45:12.000
The Socorro story is one of those films that are left to buy at UFO are terribly important scientifically.
45:12.000 --> 45:17.000
Because learning now is about the only thing that you can actually latch onto and take into a laboratory.
45:17.000 --> 45:26.000
As of course, it should have been done, if there had been everything on the operative, it should have been done with the metal fragments in Socorro.
45:26.000 --> 45:33.000
But it should have been taken to a non-governmental laboratory and thoroughly studied there.
45:33.000 --> 45:37.000
The film he was talking about was taken right after the event.
45:37.000 --> 45:45.000
And the film was apparently fogged by radiation and never given back to the person that took the film.
45:45.000 --> 45:48.000
And a day later there was no radiation.
45:48.000 --> 45:52.000
So there's not a lot of radiation as a half-life of a day.
45:52.000 --> 45:58.000
So that could be a function of the exotic propulsion and this blue flame that iridated the area for a short time.
45:58.000 --> 46:00.000
And then it wasn't there the next day.
46:00.000 --> 46:03.000
Let's leave the mic there because we have another video about the lost footage.
46:03.000 --> 46:05.000
Why don't you talk about that real quick?
46:05.000 --> 46:09.000
Lost footage is in 2014 when we went to the Cherry Hill Move On Symposium.
46:09.000 --> 46:13.000
James Fox was talking about his movie 701, which he's still working on right now.
46:13.000 --> 46:18.000
We'll just hand it back to you then.
46:18.000 --> 46:22.000
And James was starting to show some things about Socorro.
46:22.000 --> 46:27.000
And I thought, I remember seeing some footage on TV from the TV show Sightings about this.
46:27.000 --> 46:29.000
And I thought I was going to show it.
46:29.000 --> 46:32.000
He didn't show it and we got hooked up with him afterwards.
46:32.000 --> 46:34.000
And I asked him about it and he never heard of it.
46:34.000 --> 46:36.000
So I said, I will find it for you.
46:36.000 --> 46:41.000
So to make a long story short, I called every production company in the world almost.
46:41.000 --> 46:47.000
Henry Dinkler, ABC, CBS, A&E, every single company, Universal, Paramount Studios.
46:47.000 --> 46:49.000
They all kept running me around.
46:49.000 --> 46:52.000
And a couple of them say, well, if we have it, you've got to pay for it.
46:52.000 --> 46:54.000
I'm like, OK, I'm not going to do that.
46:54.000 --> 46:56.000
We put that in the Move On Journal.
46:56.000 --> 46:59.000
It was on the cover of one of the journals, our search for the lost Socorro footage.
46:59.000 --> 47:02.000
And John Ventry reaches out and goes, I got that on VHS.
47:02.000 --> 47:04.000
I'll send it to you in a couple of days.
47:04.000 --> 47:05.000
He kept it in his bathroom apparently, right?
47:05.000 --> 47:06.000
Yeah, sure enough.
47:06.000 --> 47:09.000
Next day, a couple of days later, I've got the CD of the footage.
47:09.000 --> 47:11.000
And that's what we're going to show here.
47:11.000 --> 47:13.000
Let's see how loud this is.
47:16.000 --> 47:17.000
I believe it'll be loud.
47:17.000 --> 47:19.000
You think so?
47:19.000 --> 47:21.000
Maybe not.
47:25.000 --> 47:26.000
No.
47:26.000 --> 47:29.000
Socorro was the matter of intense media interest.
47:29.000 --> 47:32.000
But except for the poor, there's footage seen here.
47:32.000 --> 47:37.000
All film and photographs taken by news agencies and curious onlookers,
47:37.000 --> 47:42.000
which reportedly covers in April 1964, the family was on vacation in New Mexico.
47:42.000 --> 47:46.000
This rare home movie recorded at the scene of Zamora's sighting,
47:46.000 --> 47:50.000
shows the aftermath of the UFO landing and take-off.
47:50.000 --> 47:54.000
Though short in duration, this film footage is significant,
47:54.000 --> 47:57.000
because it not only validates Deputy Zamora's story,
47:57.000 --> 48:00.000
but also provides important documentation for ufologists
48:00.000 --> 48:03.000
who continue to study the Socorro case.
48:04.000 --> 48:09.000
So we had to edit that down, because it was actually pretty long,
48:09.000 --> 48:11.000
and we wanted to keep it relevant.
48:11.000 --> 48:14.000
Plus, we were running out of time.
48:14.000 --> 48:16.000
But moving on to the hoax theory.
48:16.000 --> 48:19.000
But what's really interesting about that is not so much what was said,
48:19.000 --> 48:20.000
but just having the visual.
48:20.000 --> 48:22.000
You can see how it was trampled.
48:22.000 --> 48:24.000
When people came outside, they just didn't care.
48:24.000 --> 48:27.000
They just said they were taking rocks, they were taking any samples they could,
48:27.000 --> 48:28.000
anyone who knew anything about it.
48:28.000 --> 48:31.000
And it was unfortunately just severely trampled.
48:31.000 --> 48:34.000
It was really hard for investigators shortly after they were there
48:34.000 --> 48:37.000
to get any solid, untainted evidence.
48:37.000 --> 48:39.000
So next we have the hoax theory.
48:39.000 --> 48:41.000
This is really interesting.
48:41.000 --> 48:43.000
I really don't like to spend a lot of time on this,
48:43.000 --> 48:46.000
because there's no way this could have been a hoax.
48:46.000 --> 48:49.000
Everybody that talks about Linus Pauling Letter
48:49.000 --> 48:51.000
and the two students that did the hoax,
48:51.000 --> 48:54.000
almost none of these people ever visited the site.
48:54.000 --> 48:56.000
At the site, there's nowhere to hide.
48:56.000 --> 48:58.000
It's a depression, it's a bowl-like depression,
48:58.000 --> 49:00.000
but you can see in every direction.
49:00.000 --> 49:02.000
Also, there were no footprints at the site.
49:02.000 --> 49:06.000
There was no kerosene, there was no evidence that anybody had been there.
49:06.000 --> 49:08.000
To hoax this, they would have had to fool the people
49:08.000 --> 49:12.000
that saw the object coming into Socorro beforehand.
49:12.000 --> 49:14.000
They would have had to fool Opal Grinder.
49:14.000 --> 49:17.000
And when we were at Socorro, we asked to talk to these gentlemen.
49:17.000 --> 49:19.000
One was in the hospital, he wouldn't talk to us,
49:19.000 --> 49:21.000
the other one in the left town.
49:21.000 --> 49:25.000
The consensus of the people in Socorro was they were lying.
49:25.000 --> 49:27.000
And because they wouldn't talk to us, that's kind of a red flag,
49:27.000 --> 49:30.000
but the whole thing was a speculation and a letter
49:30.000 --> 49:33.000
that was written to a professor that it sure had been hoaxed
49:33.000 --> 49:37.000
by people that were a little bit mad that Linus had given speeding tickets.
49:37.000 --> 49:39.000
But when you look at the case in a whole,
49:39.000 --> 49:42.000
there's too many events that it would have taken Spielberg's
49:42.000 --> 49:45.000
Dream Animation team to figure all this out.
49:45.000 --> 49:47.000
You just can't hoax that many people,
49:47.000 --> 49:49.000
have that many people hear this out, and that many people want to see it.
49:49.000 --> 49:51.000
There are no footprints in or out.
49:51.000 --> 49:53.000
Yeah, no kerosene, nothing on the site.
49:53.000 --> 49:57.000
So this was a balloon flown by the University of New Mexico at the time.
49:57.000 --> 50:01.000
The thing to remember is this craft took off into a 40-mile-an-hour wind.
50:01.000 --> 50:03.000
We were there, and it was exactly the same conditions.
50:03.000 --> 50:05.000
We know what the weather was like.
50:05.000 --> 50:07.000
The craft took off into the northwest,
50:07.000 --> 50:12.000
where the wind was coming out at about 35, it's constant, it's always there.
50:12.000 --> 50:15.000
The lunar lander has round footprints, but, you know,
50:15.000 --> 50:17.000
as I dug into the lunar lander, in 64,
50:17.000 --> 50:19.000
the lunar lander didn't have an internal engine.
50:19.000 --> 50:23.000
The engine they used used a hydroxene type of caustic material
50:23.000 --> 50:27.000
that they'd fire it up for two minutes, and then they'd have to rebuild the engine.
50:27.000 --> 50:31.000
It was also designed to fly in not an atmosphere.
50:31.000 --> 50:34.000
So the only thing being done with the lunar lander this time
50:34.000 --> 50:38.000
was they were dropping it from a cable to test the integrity of the struts.
50:38.000 --> 50:42.000
But even a lunar lander could not be 35 miles off course,
50:42.000 --> 50:46.000
could not stay in the air at all at this time frame,
50:46.000 --> 50:50.000
maybe 30 seconds once they got the engine going, because it was designed to fly in space.
50:50.000 --> 50:55.000
So, you know, there was no black project, and everybody was looking at this.
50:55.000 --> 51:00.000
FBI, CIA, the White House, everybody asked, what's going on?
51:00.000 --> 51:05.000
Hector Quintanilla had permission from the CIA to go anywhere he wanted.
51:05.000 --> 51:09.000
So he said, even in his book, I'm going to find this in a hangar at Hollerman,
51:09.000 --> 51:12.000
he went everywhere. He never found anything.
51:12.000 --> 51:15.000
There was never a black project tied to this.
51:15.000 --> 51:19.000
Any takeoff vehicles, vehicles that were built at the time,
51:19.000 --> 51:24.000
we've never built an egg-shaped craft that could fly like that, then or now.
51:24.000 --> 51:29.000
We had somebody asking us, surely there must be some kind of lander,
51:29.000 --> 51:32.000
so we dug up this thing from 2010. This is hilarious.
51:32.000 --> 51:34.000
This is what we got.
51:34.000 --> 51:37.000
Five, four, three, two, one.
51:37.000 --> 51:39.000
2010.
51:39.000 --> 51:43.000
It goes $35 million down the tubes.
51:43.000 --> 51:46.000
Why did you give away the spoiler?
51:58.000 --> 52:03.000
So, in 2010, if this is our technology, you know,
52:03.000 --> 52:06.000
if we had something like this in 64 that was described by Lonnie,
52:06.000 --> 52:12.000
there's no way in the world we'd spend $35 million to have a propellant-type vehicle blow up like this.
52:12.000 --> 52:13.000
Exactly.
52:13.000 --> 52:15.000
And that was designed to go to asteroids.
52:15.000 --> 52:17.000
Now, this event happened in what year?
52:17.000 --> 52:18.000
1964.
52:18.000 --> 52:22.000
And it was the startups that were trying to make the lunar module. When did that start?
52:22.000 --> 52:26.000
The lunar module didn't actually start having an internal engine until 1965.
52:26.000 --> 52:28.000
No, not the engine, Paul. What I'm thinking is the design.
52:28.000 --> 52:31.000
Is it possible that they've seen this craft someplace else?
52:31.000 --> 52:35.000
No, it never came off base like that. They never flew it off from Lake City.
52:35.000 --> 52:42.000
No, no, no. My point is, did we see another alien craft and base the lunar module on that design,
52:42.000 --> 52:45.000
and it just so happens the second one landed?
52:45.000 --> 52:51.000
I don't think so, yeah. The lunar lander, you know, it's all designed to operate in no atmosphere.
52:51.000 --> 52:57.000
And so this thing couldn't, any of the landers couldn't fly in the atmosphere.
52:57.000 --> 53:02.000
If the ones that had working engines, it was maybe 30 seconds.
53:02.000 --> 53:07.000
Yeah, but the design, the feature of landing on four legs, I was thinking, do we still take that technology?
53:07.000 --> 53:11.000
No, I don't think so. It was very crude. The legs were round.
53:11.000 --> 53:15.000
You know, it was obviously you could see the people sitting in it. It was an open cockpit at the time.
53:15.000 --> 53:19.000
There was nothing about it that even resembled an egg.
53:19.000 --> 53:21.000
So we found this in the Blue Book files here.
53:21.000 --> 53:26.000
Yeah, initially believed the observation of the lunar module effort to date cannot place a vehicle on site.
53:26.000 --> 53:28.000
It's still unidentified.
53:28.000 --> 53:33.000
So part of the documents we found were the White House and everybody asking, what is this thing?
53:33.000 --> 53:38.000
Can we explain it as hallucination? Of course, hallucinations don't put holes in the ground.
53:38.000 --> 53:40.000
So everybody wanted an answer to this.
53:40.000 --> 53:45.000
But, you know, and the thing that baffles me is they could have come out and said, oh, it was a black project.
53:45.000 --> 53:49.000
It was something we can't tell you about. They never, ever did that. Yes, sir.
53:49.000 --> 53:54.000
When the astronauts trained for that, they were working on a modified jet engine.
53:54.000 --> 53:57.000
They weren't working with any of the real stuff.
53:57.000 --> 54:02.000
Right. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing about the lunar module that ties into this case.
54:02.000 --> 54:05.000
It was, you know, it was being worked on in the area.
54:05.000 --> 54:09.000
But in April of 64, they were just dropping it from a cable and towing it with an helicopter.
54:13.000 --> 54:16.000
So this is when we took a visit to the site.
54:16.000 --> 54:20.000
That's the actual, that's the quadrangle right there as it is today.
54:20.000 --> 54:22.000
Or was that what, two years ago?
54:22.000 --> 54:25.000
Sixteen, yeah, about a year and a half ago.
54:25.000 --> 54:32.000
And we found that we found that right where the blade knifed into the ground, the consistency of the soil was like baby powder.
54:32.000 --> 54:34.000
Everywhere else around was more granular.
54:34.000 --> 54:41.000
But right where the we think it was like a subatomic particle type of of exhaust going into there.
54:41.000 --> 54:45.000
Yeah, it knifed into the ground. It did. It did affect the soil in such a way.
54:45.000 --> 54:48.000
We should have taken samples. We're going to go back next year. We'll do that anyway.
54:48.000 --> 54:52.000
I don't think there's anything to really analyze other than to note that this soil is different than that soil.
54:52.000 --> 54:57.000
What's interesting is we went to the old Defensor Chief and to get permission to be on the property.
54:57.000 --> 55:00.000
And the guy knew where the site was. It took us an hour to find it.
55:00.000 --> 55:04.000
He was wandering around and we're in the car going, does this guy know where the heck he's going?
55:04.000 --> 55:08.000
And when we finally went out there and we're all walking around and I go, this is really neat.
55:08.000 --> 55:11.000
And he goes, watch out for the rattlesnakes and cactus.
55:11.000 --> 55:14.000
I'm like, holy crap. I'm standing on a cactus.
55:14.000 --> 55:17.000
And I'm looking for snakes the whole rest of the time.
55:17.000 --> 55:20.000
So this is our video of being on site.
55:20.000 --> 55:25.000
We took a lot of videos, but this one was the most important one we wanted to show you because it illustrates how strong the wind was.
55:25.000 --> 55:28.000
It's like this every day, I kid you not.
55:39.000 --> 55:42.000
If you can hear the wind, that's all you need to hear in this video.
55:42.000 --> 55:45.000
That's where the dynamite shock was.
55:45.000 --> 55:48.000
There's nowhere to hide there.
55:50.000 --> 55:53.000
This car over here.
55:57.000 --> 56:00.000
Ben has much improved on his videography skills.
56:00.000 --> 56:03.000
I'll never be making any movies.
56:04.000 --> 56:11.000
So anyways, this was the original dynamite shack photo that Ray was asked who owned the dynamite shack because he had talked about it.
56:11.000 --> 56:15.000
So this is what prompted Ray to start looking through his files.
56:15.000 --> 56:26.000
He found this black and white original photograph and off into the distance by the pearlite mill, which is the point up there, Ben, where the pearlite is, he noticed there were some objects suspended in the sky.
56:26.000 --> 56:30.000
And he hasn't released this photograph. It's a smoking gun photograph.
56:30.000 --> 56:32.000
We've seen it hundreds of times.
56:32.000 --> 56:36.000
He won't let us release it. It's frustrating, but we'll have it at some point.
56:36.000 --> 56:40.000
Our goal is to go back to the score and see if anybody else ever took pictures of the time.
56:40.000 --> 56:45.000
Another interesting fact is that when James Fox recently went to Lonnie's house, his wife is still alive.
56:45.000 --> 56:49.000
His stuff hadn't been touched and his files were still there.
56:49.000 --> 56:56.000
And in his files, he had an envelope that had pictures in it of people in Socorro that sent him pictures that they had taken of the craft, they think.
56:56.000 --> 56:59.000
And the envelope was empty.
56:59.000 --> 57:07.000
And so because of the image of these crafts were burning our heads so well, I went ahead and took a crack at trying to illustrate it.
57:07.000 --> 57:11.000
And Ben looked at it the other day and he goes, man, that looks exactly like what it is.
57:11.000 --> 57:15.000
So that's what the craft really looks like in the shape and the distance from my memory.
57:15.000 --> 57:21.000
And that, where you see the legs coming out of that illustration, that's about 2.5 miles away from the camera.
57:21.000 --> 57:22.000
0.6.
57:22.000 --> 57:26.000
0.6. And then the ones off into the distance are closer to like 3 to 5 miles out.
57:26.000 --> 57:30.000
Those may not be as accurate, but they're very, very large.
57:30.000 --> 57:32.000
And they're like, could be like a mothership.
57:32.000 --> 57:36.000
There's actually another anomaly to the left, which I didn't bother to illustrate.
57:36.000 --> 57:40.000
But this is kind of like in a nutshell what you're going to see come out into the news.
57:40.000 --> 57:44.000
And it's going to be a black and white photograph in the future.
57:44.000 --> 57:53.000
When they measured the distance and they did a triangulation to figure out the distance between those legs and that object, they lined up exactly to what was on the ground.
57:53.000 --> 57:54.000
About 19 feet.
57:54.000 --> 57:57.000
This object here was very large and very far away.
57:57.000 --> 58:00.000
This one is egg shaped without landing gear out.
58:00.000 --> 58:04.000
This one you can see three of the landing gear and a swirl of energy on the back.
58:04.000 --> 58:11.000
So if we can find one more photo and it looks like this and then we can release the photo, let anybody analyze it.
58:11.000 --> 58:13.000
We're not going to charge money to see it.
58:13.000 --> 58:16.000
Ray's still looking for the negative.
58:16.000 --> 58:19.000
He hadn't found the negative, but no, in Ray's house, it's there somewhere.
58:19.000 --> 58:21.000
And I took a loop and I stared at it.
58:21.000 --> 58:22.000
I think to my eyes were bleeding.
58:22.000 --> 58:26.000
And those legs are not like the kind you see in the drawings.
58:26.000 --> 58:29.000
They're like claws and they're coming right out.
58:29.000 --> 58:37.000
It's like it's seamless coming off the ellipsoidal right into a leg, almost as if the legs retract into the ellipsoidal shape of the craft.
58:37.000 --> 58:40.000
Yeah, almost like they come out like that and then come back like, like, like claws.
58:40.000 --> 58:41.000
Like they're part of the ship.
58:41.000 --> 58:46.000
Like you just come out and they can just retract back in to a perfect seamless integration.
58:46.000 --> 58:47.000
Raise clean up the photo.
58:47.000 --> 58:50.000
A lot of people are thinking it may be an aberration on the negative.
58:50.000 --> 58:51.000
It's too accurate.
58:51.000 --> 58:53.000
It's almost exactly as Lonnie described it.
58:53.000 --> 58:54.000
Yes.
58:54.000 --> 58:58.000
Just out of curiosity, what is the orientation of this picture?
58:58.000 --> 59:01.000
Is it facing towards the greater range of white sands?
59:01.000 --> 59:02.000
The pearlite mill.
59:02.000 --> 59:05.000
Yeah, it's the pearlite mills where this disappeared to.
59:05.000 --> 59:08.000
There's an airport, a private airport to the left.
59:08.000 --> 59:17.000
What's interesting is this area where the object came from and where it seemed to go to, there was a gentleman we ran into when we presented Louvon Symposium in Orlando.
59:17.000 --> 59:19.000
He was a radiation specialist.
59:19.000 --> 59:29.000
He didn't know anything about the case, but he had run into Lonnie Zamora and Socorro in a gift shop and Lonnie found out he was in radiation and he asked Lonnie, could I have been radiating?
59:29.000 --> 59:30.000
Which is interesting.
59:30.000 --> 59:31.000
This was in the 80s.
59:31.000 --> 59:33.000
So Lonnie was still thinking about this thing.
59:33.000 --> 59:37.000
The gentleman we talked to said, I'm going to drive up there and see what's in the mountains.
59:37.000 --> 59:38.000
Well, it's all secure.
59:38.000 --> 59:40.000
It's a top secret base.
59:40.000 --> 59:42.000
You can't get anywhere near there, which is interesting.
59:42.000 --> 59:45.000
There's a lot of uranium ore in this area, too.
59:45.000 --> 59:50.000
So here we put a compilation together of the 12 minute interview with Lonnie Zamora.
59:50.000 --> 59:52.000
Hopefully we have enough time for all of this.
59:52.000 --> 01:00:01.000
So yeah, this is about the end of our presentation, but we just put a montage together so you're not bored listening to Lonnie, but Lonnie is going to describe what's going on.
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:03.000
You'll hear some interesting things in this interview.
01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:07.000
This is Walter Schrode after Lonnie has been talked to by the FBI.
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:15.000
This is Walter Schrode, your roving reporter at KSRC Radio in Socorro, New Mexico.
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:33.000
We have with us this afternoon, Mr. Lonnie Zamora, the Socorro patrolman that while chasing a car, found himself in an area about two miles west of Socorro and one mile east of KSRC Radio station, at which time he reports he came upon an unidentified object resting on board.
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:41.000
And as he drew closer, the object took off with a loud roar, starting a blue-red flame and disappeared in the sky.
01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:51.000
Every number of guards and Socorro people have gathered here in front of these studios of KSRC to catch a glimpse of Mr. Zamora as he arrives and welcome him with their car horn.
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:55.000
And she says, Lonnie, after coming upon this object, just what did happen?
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:28.000
The car that had turned over saw the rear-end of the roof and carried one out there to investigate.
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:30.000
It doesn't look like somebody was being hurt.
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:37.000
That time, I saw this white thing, a cheap, blue-green object.
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:40.000
It looked like an alien.
01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:43.000
Yeah, from the distance, I thought it looked like an alien.
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:47.000
It looked like a car, I think, there, in one sense.
01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:50.000
It looked like a car that had turned over a time.
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:52.000
I thought it was a vehicle car.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:56.000
And did it have any kind of markings on it, any kind, you know?
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:30.000
It was probably right into an area that they don't want to talk about when you just say so.
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:34.000
And it happened about 5.30, right after noon.
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:39.000
But that was about 5.50, about 10 minutes to take.
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:42.000
And we had to call the police.
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:45.000
I don't know if you were in the investigation.
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:48.000
The police arrived and saw this object.
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.000
I didn't know where it was.
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:54.000
I tried to call two partners, John and the police.
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.000
The police would come up there and help me on this.
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:01.000
He said, yes, I'll be right there in about a few minutes.
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:05.000
And he arrived just about two or three minutes after the hour.
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:08.000
He had taken off and left.
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:15.000
But all of the other people were still about a couple of months up there when he arrived.
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.000
So that direction had went it.
01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:22.000
But I was over the top of the mountain, and we heard a report that it was the true glow.
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000
It was dragging something.
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:26.000
We heard some...
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000
There was a very low flow of ground.
01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:31.000
Since the time I was in there, there was a very low flow of ground.
01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:36.000
Up to the bird-like meal there, we started to see it.
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:38.000
Now, I also...
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:42.000
It was reported to me that when you first go up into this area,
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:45.000
and there's a size of this object that's more of a running ad,
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:46.000
and it was going...
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:50.000
There was some sort of stress sound.
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:52.000
It was that very...
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:56.000
I remember having a little bit of a...
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:59.000
I started running a little bit.
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:00.000
I don't blame you.
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:03.000
It wasn't even scary to me yet.
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:09.000
Now, you did say that you saw two other people dressed in white uniforms.
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.000
But did they have helmets on like space men or anything?
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:15.000
I don't know if you could say there were people...
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:18.000
I saw something quite powerful.
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:21.000
I could say it was like there was something in white cover all around.
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:25.000
But you couldn't identify them as actually being a human being.
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:28.000
You and I are two of them.
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:34.000
But you didn't know whether they turned into a saw you or what.
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:38.000
Well, to what...
01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:44.000
I would say that this white object turned into a homing radio.
01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:50.000
I would say there were two because one was from the front and the other was from the back.
01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:58.000
You had a chance to know what kind of a doorway they had to this flying object.
01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:00.000
You didn't know if it was over or over.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:08.000
And when they took off, it made a loud, loud groan sound.
01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:14.000
You could hear the very loud noise, roar or something.
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:15.000
This is the route there.
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:17.000
Yeah, about 20 people were found.
01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:18.000
Things disappeared.
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:19.000
The sound was...
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:21.000
It disappeared very, very quietly.
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:24.000
You could hear kids running up there.
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:28.000
And now these markings are left on the ground.
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:32.000
Now the reports that I've had and I haven't had a chance to go and take a look in the winds yet
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:35.000
and you probably spoiled a lot of that anyway,
01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:39.000
was that there were deep indentations in the ground,
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:44.000
approximately 10 inches wide and 6 to 8 inches deep,
01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:46.000
about 15 feet apart.
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:48.000
That is our correct report.
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:56.000
Well, I would say it was about 19 feet apart from the group.
01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:00.000
And were there any other friends, my footprints around the area,
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:05.000
that I had to take off or anything when you were making it at the gate?
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:09.000
There were no friends, but I wouldn't know if there were footprints or anything.
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:11.000
Friends.
01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:15.000
You could identify it as actually being a footprint.
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:19.000
In the indentations, I mean, somebody might have walked there or somebody might have walked there.
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:22.000
Somebody's mocha under the canoe.
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:25.000
When I got there, there was nobody around there yet.
01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:29.000
Now there was, according to a report on one of the news,
01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:33.000
the television stations in Albuquerque claimed that they had a call
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:39.000
just about 5.30 in Albuquerque of a sighting about flying objects
01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:40.000
flying in this direction.
01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:42.000
Did you hear anything about that?
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:44.000
Bluebirds and what's sure...
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:46.000
This is a very rough road.
01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:51.000
...that someone in Albuquerque saw this object flying in this direction just prior to the sighting.
01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:56.000
And which collaborates with the fact that there was something here.
01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:59.000
Now it's revealing, I guess, revealing evidence that it's lying there.
01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:02.000
For the people that I talked to and they're around in the area,
01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:07.000
that they are quite sure that something landed there and something took off from this spot
01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:11.000
because of not only the imprint that it left in the ground,
01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:16.000
but the fire that it started and the method of which the fire,
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:21.000
the power that it was using kind of spread itself as it took off.
01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:26.000
I realized a little before I knew that because I'd seen it.
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:35.000
And what was your immediate reaction as you realized that there might be an object from outer space?
01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:40.000
Well, I didn't think it would be this object from outer space
01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:46.000
because I don't believe in things like this in my state.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:49.000
Well, it was something that you'd never seen before.
01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:52.000
It ran out to this area there, it ran in the other direction.
01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:58.000
Well, what's careful was not knowing it's been a flame that's been in there.
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:01.000
I've already explained that it took off.
01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:06.000
It was a blueish, orange flame.
01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:10.000
This object was a little blue off the first one inside.
01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:17.000
And you notice where the arms that were sitting on retracted back into the object.
01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:19.000
It was a little better than that.
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:21.000
It had arms.
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:25.000
And if I could run and get it regular, at that time I would not do it.
01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:30.000
Are there any other things about this thing that you think the audience might be interested in?
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:34.000
Well, I think it's the data from the U.P. about the town.
01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:37.000
You know a lot, a lot.
01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:45.000
And you get into this area, and you get a nice guy after you get over on the pearl ice.
01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:49.000
You know, I was a little moved to the pearl ice mine.
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000
Then from there on, they just told me that you could break it up in the air.
01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:02.000
So anything, anything you would look at, see what they're doing.
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:06.000
Well, do you think we're going to get any more out of this?
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:08.000
Oh, not really.
01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:11.000
But that's quite an interesting experience.
01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:17.000
I'm sure that this caused an awful lot of comment.
01:09:17.000 --> 01:09:21.000
Does any investigator that's promoted...
01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:24.000
That's pretty much our presentation.
01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:29.000
Hopefully you have more education on this particular case.
01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:36.000
You saw all the different interpretations of art and shows that tried to get it right and got it wrong.
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:44.000
So now you know what the truth is versus the interpretive, non-investigative interpretations you'll see on the media.
01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:46.000
Ben, you want to talk about the book really quick?
01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:49.000
Yeah, the book, Ray had found a case in his house.
01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:52.000
We have some copies outside signed by Ray.
01:09:52.000 --> 01:09:54.000
They go for 300 bucks on eBay.
01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:55.000
We're selling for 70.
01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:56.000
The money's for Ray.
01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:57.000
He's not in good health.
01:09:57.000 --> 01:09:58.000
He's 79 years old.
01:09:58.000 --> 01:10:00.000
He's just had major surgery.
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:02.000
But it's a very rare book.
01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:04.000
They're in pristine condition.
01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:06.000
There's about 60 copies left.
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:13.000
And when Lonnie's daughter, who I've been in contact with, asked Lonnie about the case,
01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:17.000
Lonnie pointed to Ray's book, which he had a copy of.
01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:19.000
And he said, that's the only guy that got it right.
01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:22.000
So, you know, we have, it's still an unknown.
01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:27.000
And this case is one of the best close encounters of the third kind in the literature.
01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:30.000
And like I said, this is the case that keeps giving.
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:32.000
As we dig further, we find more cases like it.
01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:33.000
We find more witnesses.
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:35.000
We find more corroboration.
01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:38.000
We found a lot of egg-shaped objects cited this time.
01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:43.000
And so we're going to go back to score on next year and dig even further and do like they do on the Bigfoot show,
01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:44.000
where we have a town meeting.
01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:48.000
Anybody that knows anything or has any photographs, come meet us.
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:51.000
And then we're going to go visit a couple of other sites there.
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:53.000
So we appreciate it.
01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:56.000
And since John Metry is here, we want to give him special thanks.
01:10:56.000 --> 01:11:00.000
And he was one of the providers of that video, as Ben mentioned earlier.
01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:06.000
But Ray Stanford has been just tremendous in filling us with all the information on this case here.
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:09.000
And everyone else you see in that list as well.
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:12.000
That's us with Martin Willis when we went to Ray's house.
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:17.000
And we actually broadcasted from his, I want to call it a loft is what it feels like, because it was like 100 degrees up there.
01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:18.000
It was hot, yeah.
01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:20.000
And in the middle of it, we're sweating profusely.
01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:22.000
Ray just starts taking his clothes off.
01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:24.000
And he's just sitting there half naked.
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:28.000
We had to turn the air conditioner off because the microphone for the radio was really sensitive.
01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:32.000
So I was sitting there thinking, I don't know, do we join him?
01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:34.000
We just kept sweating like pigs.
01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:36.000
But anyway, that's the Hangar One show.
01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:38.000
And you guys are familiar with a lot of these websites.
01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:39.000
So that's it.
01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:40.000
Thanks.
01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:41.000
Thanks.
01:11:43.000 --> 01:11:46.000
I don't know if you have time for questions, Don, or...
01:11:47.000 --> 01:11:48.000
Question?
01:11:48.000 --> 01:11:53.000
Yeah, that same day in New York, upstate New York, it was a next-shaped object, a site.
01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:55.000
Yeah, I've looked into that.
01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:58.000
And there's a little bit of maybe he made that up.
01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:00.000
Yeah, I've dug into that.
01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:02.000
And I found all the records of it.
01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:06.000
And a lot of people seem to think he made that up after he heard this story.
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:08.000
So I can't put a whole lot of faith in that one.
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:12.000
Any follow-up on that speeder?
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:13.000
On the what?
01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:15.000
The speeder the policeman was chasing.
01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:17.000
Nah, he let, you know...
01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:19.000
He got away.
01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:21.000
Yeah, Lonnie was on random patrol that day.
01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:23.000
That's another thing people don't realize.
01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:24.000
He was on random patrol.
01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:28.000
So to get him to that area as a hoax, not easy to do.
01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:29.000
Not easy to do.
01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:35.000
You said you're going back out there next year, but you've never really done a soil sample test on that area?
01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:38.000
After all this time, I doubt there's anything of soil.
01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:39.000
We could probably pull it up.
01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:42.000
The one thing we noticed is the creosite bushes are still there.
01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:45.000
And one of them right in the center is much bigger than all the others.
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:46.000
That was my next question.
01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:50.000
Is anybody done a sample on the plant life there in say a half a mile away?
01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:08.000
My name is Jan Harzan.
01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:10.000
I'm the executive director for MUFON.
01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:18.000
We are a scientific research organization that basically collects siting reports from the public and then goes and investigates them.
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:24.000
Our mission statement as an organization is the scientific study of UFOs for the benefit of humanity.
01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:26.000
And we have three primary goals.
01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:28.000
We investigate UFO reports.
01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:31.000
We promote research into the UFO subject.
01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:33.000
And we educate the public.
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:37.000
We are the UFO subject and we educate the public on our findings.