1 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,000 You 2 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,280 In 3 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,900 1996 the first mammal was cloned Dolly the sheep 4 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,799 Dolly was an exact copy of her mother in every possible way 5 00:01:10,239 --> 00:01:15,319 From that point it was only a matter of time before the ability to clone a human being... 6 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:22,240 Ever since the cloning of Dolly the debates of this highly charged issue on whether or... 7 00:01:22,439 --> 00:01:27,960 Has raged with ever-increasing fury and intensity while there has yet to be any... 8 00:01:28,479 --> 00:01:32,439 Mandate resolution or regulations governing this brand-new technology 9 00:01:33,639 --> 00:01:37,479 While many people have considered this technology is nothing less than playing God 10 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:44,119 Others regard it merely as scientific and medical progress and so goes the great hum... 11 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,560 This program presents both sides of this debate so that people may be able to decid... 12 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,479 If they want to play God and clone humans 13 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:59,200 If you think of the developments in medicine that have occurred in the last 50 years or... 14 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,200 like anesthetics antibiotics 15 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:07,200 organ transplantation and the contribution that they've made to human health and... 16 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,199 opportunities than have been developed in the last hundred years 17 00:02:13,199 --> 00:02:16,319 Cloning once thought of as wild science fiction 18 00:02:16,319 --> 00:02:18,319 But it's not a matter of the future 19 00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:26,319 Cloning once thought of as wild science fiction fantasy has now become a reality a... 20 00:02:26,319 --> 00:02:30,319 surrounding this scientific advancement are struggling to catch up with this new... 21 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:39,319 Some other closely related technologies that seem scientifically impossible at the turn... 22 00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:41,319 are commonplace practices today 23 00:02:42,319 --> 00:02:48,319 Over time yesterday's science fiction fantasy often becomes present-day scientific fact 24 00:02:48,319 --> 00:02:54,319 In the process cultural and political attitudes usually evolve to accommodate th... 25 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:08,319 The moral ethical and religious debates concerning cloning however have spawned... 26 00:03:08,319 --> 00:03:13,319 In addition science itself continues to be divided in whether we should proceed with... 27 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:23,319 Within this debate there appears to be a clear-cut distinction between the cloning ... 28 00:03:26,319 --> 00:03:36,319 Is cloning a full-term human being a concept better left alone or is our curiosity and... 29 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:48,319 And with regards to cloning technology can human beings be relied upon to draw the... 30 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:55,319 As humankind continues its venture into the realm of human cloning these and many more... 31 00:03:55,319 --> 00:04:04,319 Cloning is a word that is a broad word it's applied to plants and animals but with... 32 00:04:04,319 --> 00:04:15,319 Such that you would take a cell any cell from the human body take its nucleus out take a... 33 00:04:15,319 --> 00:04:25,319 And it would form a human embryo and if things work out you put the embryo back in... 34 00:04:25,319 --> 00:04:32,319 Less than a century ago people were horrified by the fact that the human body was a huma... 35 00:04:32,319 --> 00:04:39,319 And that the human body was a human being and that the human body was a human being 36 00:04:39,319 --> 00:04:48,319 Less than a century ago people were horrified by the artificial insemination of animals 37 00:04:48,319 --> 00:04:56,319 Later people were again horrified when organ transplantation was developed and even mor... 38 00:04:56,319 --> 00:05:05,319 Most recently the birth of the first test tube baby Louise Brown where an egg was... 39 00:05:05,319 --> 00:05:09,319 Created a storm of religious and ethical protests and controversy 40 00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:26,319 Today however people don't think twice at the mention of in vitro fertilization and now... 41 00:05:27,319 --> 00:05:37,319 In vitro fertilization although the clergy has struggled with the idea we have come t... 42 00:05:37,319 --> 00:05:46,319 If that's the only way that it can be made and as far as putting organs into human... 43 00:05:46,319 --> 00:05:59,319 That is also an appropriate form of transplant but to clone an individual woul... 44 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:04,319 We no longer need men and women to get together and to become a couple 45 00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:10,319 Is a cloned carbon copy of an organism however a good thing? 46 00:06:10,319 --> 00:06:16,319 A human clone would be an exact copy of an individual in every physical and genetic... 47 00:06:19,319 --> 00:06:28,319 I think the argument from science is that many people in science think a child... 48 00:06:28,319 --> 00:06:31,319 And all the other stuff is science fiction and emotionalism 49 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:37,319 Science hates to close down options especially if they are based on ignorance ... 50 00:06:37,319 --> 00:06:44,319 There are things that people originated by cloning might actually teach us 51 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:54,319 Any technology has its good side and its bad side and if you take a good technology one... 52 00:06:54,319 --> 00:07:05,319 And you put a low consciousness scientist or person politician if that person is coming... 53 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:09,319 A low consciousness will take a good technology and corrupt it 54 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:17,319 However if there is a technology that appears to be maybe dangerous or bad and you take ... 55 00:07:17,319 --> 00:07:21,319 Who takes into account all types of ethical considerations 56 00:07:21,319 --> 00:07:26,319 Then they can actually take a technology that may seem more dangerous and turn it in a g... 57 00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:45,319 The initial attitudes towards and directions taken in human cloning technology were... 58 00:07:48,319 --> 00:07:55,319 In 1996 British embryologist Dr. Ian Wilmot was the first scientist to successfully cl... 59 00:07:55,319 --> 00:08:00,319 In that case a sheep was cloned and its offspring was named Dolly 60 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:09,319 Overnight Dolly became the icon of cloning, a crowning achievement to some and the edge ... 61 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:19,319 We use sheep for our research in developing this technique because there are many ways... 62 00:08:19,319 --> 00:08:27,319 And we were very confident that the technique that works in sheep would also work... 63 00:08:30,319 --> 00:08:38,319 This is Dolly. Dolly was cloned from a mammary gland cell taken from a six year o... 64 00:08:38,319 --> 00:08:46,319 That cell was cultured in the laboratory for several weeks and then it was transferred ... 65 00:08:46,319 --> 00:08:53,319 An egg from which the maternal DNA had been removed and that created what we call a... 66 00:08:53,320 --> 00:09:02,320 That embryo is activated by a small electric shock and in a small proportion of cases... 67 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:15,320 Before Dolly scientists believed that the genetic material or DNA of cells was... 68 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:23,320 Muscle or skin or bone or soft tissue, although it contained all the blueprints... 69 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:36,320 The discovery that the genetic material of a differentiated cell could be made to behav... 70 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:49,320 The remarkable thing about all this is that people each step of the way have said, thi... 71 00:09:49,320 --> 00:10:03,320 When I started out in 1997 there was a textbook on mammalian physiology that said... 72 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:09,320 And what Ian Wilmot basically did is prove that that law of nature was false 73 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:20,320 With the huge success of Dolly, Wilmot inadvertently offered a method that... 74 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:34,320 As soon as the news of Dolly broke, along with the implications for human cloning,... 75 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:43,320 The Clinton and Gore administration stated that any discovery that touches upon human... 76 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,320 It is a matter of morality and spirituality as well 77 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:54,320 Each human life is unique, born of a miracle that reaches beyond laboratory science 78 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:06,320 President Clinton was a politician and he was responding to the immediate yuck factor... 79 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,320 You have to look at where that public response came from 80 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:21,320 If you look at movies, at science fiction, there are dozens of movies that portray... 81 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:31,320 Here's this doctor, Dr. Frankenstein, who makes this monster that terrifies people 82 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:38,320 And that's kind of the concept that people have that scientists are doing these... 83 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:46,320 I mean, if the concept is, only do research that's going to turn out to be good for... 84 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:55,320 Only do research that's going to be perfect and good for mankind, only other research ... 85 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,320 You might as well forget it, we're going to be back in caves 86 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:10,320 Ever since the Clinton administration questioned the pursuit of human cloning... 87 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:18,320 There were immediate moratoriums on research with human embryos and bans on government... 88 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:24,320 Several countries have even passed laws preventing such research to continue 89 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:32,320 However, some believe that even a near global ban would not stop someone, somewhere, fro... 90 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,320 It probably won't be done in this country 91 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:47,320 Actually, they asked me about this in the New York Times a couple weeks ago, and I said,... 92 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:52,320 And I said, that person would be known as the Kovorkian of reproduction 93 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:58,320 So you wouldn't want to do it in this country, it would destroy your career,... 94 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,320 But the technology's there, and it will be done in other countries 95 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,320 But what happens in the rest of the world, in India, Pakistan, or Indonesia, we can't... 96 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:18,320 And it's my view that one of those countries, which probably feels a little bit insecure... 97 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:25,320 Is going to do that, show that it has a place at the world table, and it will be a... 98 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:35,320 Perhaps the most useful potential benefit to humanity of human cloning would be as an... 99 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:45,320 The only practical reason to clone someone, to clone a human being, not to clone for... 100 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:54,320 Would be in a couple that was infertile, or a person who was infertile, and had no chanc... 101 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:59,320 So you could use their somatic cells in order to make a human being 102 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:05,320 So that could bring the joy of having a child to that couple or that individual 103 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:15,320 And when you keep going back to saying, look, you have to use in vitro fertilization to ... 104 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:21,320 Only 18 people out of 100 take home a baby, most states do not reimburse for in vitro... 105 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,320 It costs $8,000 an attempt, most of the people that use it are not going to pay fo... 106 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:33,320 And you begin to see this is not a technology that many people would ever use and would ... 107 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:38,320 Once you do that, it doesn't seem quite so scary 108 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:53,320 What is scaring many governments, organizations, and clergy, of all politica... 109 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,320 They are loudly voicing their opposition to full term human cloning 110 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Many oppose genetic research such as cloning that produces waste embryos and fetuses 111 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:11,320 The moral concern over waste human embryos and fetuses certainly has merit 112 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:18,320 Taking the cloning of Dolly as a prime example, nearly 300 embryos were created,... 113 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:27,320 And four of the five clones created along with Dolly went to full term, but all of... 114 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:36,320 So, you know, people say, well, Ian Wilmot, you know, a lot of embryos were used to... 115 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,320 I mean, I don't think embryos count 116 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,320 The technique's going to get better, it's going to get better 117 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:50,320 I mean, some people care about embryos, but, you know, a fetus that miscarries, that's ... 118 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,320 But an embryo, it's not a big deal 119 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:03,320 These lost embryos and full term fetuses may be a risk people are willing to take when ... 120 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,320 But it is quite another consideration when it comes to human beings 121 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:13,320 One of the practical problems with cloning, of course, is it's still experimental... 122 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:18,320 And I think Ian Wilmot took 277 tries to get Dolly 123 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:24,320 There were a few that took and then died, but Dolly was the only one who survived to term 124 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,320 And plainly, there's a huge practical, ethical issue here 125 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:34,320 If we jump the species barrier to human beings, are we going to get a better embryo? 126 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:42,320 If we jump the species barrier to human beings, are we going to fertilize hundreds... 127 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,320 in the cloning technique in order to get one survivor? 128 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,320 I think most people would be repulsed by that suggestion 129 00:16:54,320 --> 00:17:00,320 I think most people don't know the difference between therapeutic embryo cloning and adu... 130 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:05,320 But there are some people who believe that embryos are tiny human beings 131 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,320 And are very passionate about not letting this go forward 132 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:19,320 Our objective is to get away from the need to use human eggs and therefore to create ver... 133 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:24,320 But nobody under any circumstances should be, in our view, allowed to implant those eggs 134 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:31,319 So that they could grow into an embryo and through full development into a baby, into... 135 00:17:31,319 --> 00:17:34,319 That's where we think the line should be drawn right now 136 00:17:34,319 --> 00:17:37,319 And indeed is in many countries, including the UK 137 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:42,319 One of the questions here is whether embryos count 138 00:17:42,319 --> 00:17:46,319 In sexual reproduction, about half of embryos fail to implant 139 00:17:46,319 --> 00:17:51,319 So we sometimes have a false view that every embryo becomes a person 140 00:17:51,319 --> 00:17:57,319 In in vitro fertilization to create 18 babies probably takes 900 embryos 141 00:17:57,319 --> 00:17:59,319 It's not a statistic that most people know about 142 00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:01,319 It's a very inefficient procedure 143 00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:02,319 A lot of embryos are wasted 144 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:04,319 No one objects to that 145 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:06,319 No one at all 146 00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:16,319 Interestingly, the one international treaty on bioethics is the European Convention on... 147 00:18:16,319 --> 00:18:20,319 Which has now been signed on to by many European countries 148 00:18:20,319 --> 00:18:26,319 And it does specifically prohibit the creation of human embryos for research 149 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:29,319 And it was drafted before cloning became a possibility 150 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:34,319 And therefore it's been amended to ban human cloning in the sense of cloned babies 151 00:18:37,319 --> 00:18:43,319 Therefore, the political and moral arguments seem to assert that although cloning... 152 00:18:43,319 --> 00:18:47,319 We should not be attempting to clone full term human beings 153 00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:51,319 Supporters of this point of view include the pioneers of cloning 154 00:18:55,319 --> 00:18:59,319 Each person, each child should be wanted as an individual 155 00:18:59,319 --> 00:19:03,319 And if you set out to make a copy of somebody who is here 156 00:19:03,319 --> 00:19:07,319 You're saying that you want the new baby to be like that person 157 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:10,319 And that is not a fair thing to do to a child 158 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:14,319 That summarizes the problems very very succinctly 159 00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:21,319 But it's for that reason that I don't think that there is any suggested proposal to ma... 160 00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:23,319 That any of us are comfortable with 161 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:34,319 As we proceed in human genetics, I think we should have a rigid oversight process with... 162 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:39,319 Because clearly we are dealing with such fundamental issues here 163 00:19:39,319 --> 00:19:44,319 That the more rigorous the ethical oversight 164 00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:48,319 The better off science will be and the public will be 165 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:54,319 Then at least they can have the reassurance that what is occurring is in their best... 166 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:02,319 The possibility of human cloning also raises many other serious questions 167 00:20:02,319 --> 00:20:05,319 Is the newborn infant a bag of bio data? 168 00:20:05,319 --> 00:20:09,319 An automated commodity programmed to grow, reproduce and die? 169 00:20:09,319 --> 00:20:13,319 Would cloning humans perpetuate such a notion? 170 00:20:13,319 --> 00:20:17,319 Many argue that cloning undermines the uniqueness of the individual 171 00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:21,319 Raising profound religious and ethical questions 172 00:20:25,319 --> 00:20:30,319 Within the biblical world view which Jews and Christians and also Muslims hold to 173 00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:35,319 Which in fact is a world view shared in many dimensions here by other religious traditi... 174 00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:39,319 It's very hard to see how human cloning can have a place 175 00:20:39,319 --> 00:20:47,319 Because it represents a watershed in our interference in human procreation 176 00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:51,319 Not simply by helping out as in assisted reproduction generally 177 00:20:51,319 --> 00:20:56,319 But of course by supplanting it with photocopying, manufacture, process 178 00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:00,319 Well as far as the Bible is concerned 179 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:05,319 The Judaic Christian belief is that an embryo is considered to be a life 180 00:21:05,319 --> 00:21:09,319 To make a human being the way we know it today 181 00:21:09,319 --> 00:21:15,319 It takes two people, it takes a man and a woman, an egg and a sperm combined together 182 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:18,319 That is what God gave us the ability to do 183 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:23,319 Once we decide to eliminate that and we start doing for ourselves 184 00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:27,319 Without God's intervention we feel that we become like God 185 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:31,319 And we become God ourselves and once man starts to think that he is God 186 00:21:31,319 --> 00:21:35,319 He will eventually destroy himself 187 00:21:35,319 --> 00:21:40,319 Further it's argued that cloning is subject to gross abuse by the scientific community 188 00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:44,319 Some assert that certain avenues should be off limits to science 189 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:48,319 And if scientists are not willing to draw the line for themselves 190 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:50,319 It's not a good thing to do 191 00:21:50,319 --> 00:21:53,319 If scientists are not willing to draw the line for themselves 192 00:21:53,319 --> 00:21:57,319 It's up to elected representatives to do it for them 193 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:03,319 Our evidence is that scientists like everybody else can be tempted 194 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:08,319 And the temptation would be very strong for commercial reasons, reasons of scientific... 195 00:22:08,319 --> 00:22:10,319 Trying to improve the human race 196 00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:14,319 And then we get into a whole sci-fi scenario which really isn't very far ahead of us 197 00:22:14,319 --> 00:22:17,319 Which I think most of us don't want to get into 198 00:22:18,319 --> 00:22:24,319 What I've seen the pattern is, is that corruption and abuse have leaked in... 199 00:22:24,319 --> 00:22:27,319 No matter how much it attempts to be regulated 200 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:30,319 No matter how much ethics is brought up 201 00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:37,319 No matter what type of constraints are put on scientists or federal funding is pulled 202 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:41,319 The bottom line is that corruption is going to leak in and abuse us 203 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:44,319 I think what we're really speaking of here is eugenics 204 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:50,319 And eugenics is basically the science of improvement of the human race through bett... 205 00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:59,319 It's through the precise choosing of traits and characteristics that we judge to be... 206 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:08,319 In the early 20th century, 30 states in the United States adopted eugenics laws 207 00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:12,319 Requiring citizens to be sterilized with conditions thought to be inheritable 208 00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:17,319 Such as insanity, criminal tendencies, retardation and epilepsy 209 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:20,319 Similar laws were also enacted in other countries 210 00:23:20,319 --> 00:23:25,319 Including Germany in 1933 when Adolf Hitler came into power 211 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:29,319 It's well known that Hitler himself had a true desire to be cloned 212 00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:31,319 Along with his master race 213 00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:37,319 And desperately wanted to develop cloning technology as an added tool to accomplish ... 214 00:23:42,319 --> 00:23:50,319 Hitler judged himself to be an expert at knowing what was superior and what was... 215 00:23:50,319 --> 00:24:00,319 And he took that to a place where he actually had intentions of wanting to filter out fr... 216 00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:03,319 People that he thought were inferior 217 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:07,319 And he wanted to utilize eugenics in terms of creating a superior race 218 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:09,319 And we all know where that led to 219 00:24:09,319 --> 00:24:13,319 To the murder and annihilation of millions and millions of people 220 00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:23,319 That would be naive to say that there's nothing to fear 221 00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:26,319 I mean there are, sure, there's some fear there 222 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:30,319 I think the fear is exaggerated and played upon 223 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:35,319 I mean, you know, they make lots of monster movies about biology 224 00:24:35,319 --> 00:24:39,319 I mean, nobody makes monster movies about business or law 225 00:24:44,319 --> 00:24:51,319 In any event, while many consider this fear of the potential abuse of human cloning... 226 00:24:51,319 --> 00:24:59,319 Still others worry about a future dictator who fancies the idea of populating the wor... 227 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:04,319 Anything can be misused, I mean, it's a technology 228 00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:07,319 I mean, hip replacements can be misused 229 00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:12,319 I don't think, things like cloning are not good or bad 230 00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:16,319 I mean, it's just, it's a technology, it's a piece of knowledge 231 00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:24,319 The Europeans, partly because of the more religious character of public policy in... 232 00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:29,319 Europeans don't go to church, but they want their public policy to reflect the... 233 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,319 And also the significance of Germany and the German conscience 234 00:25:32,319 --> 00:25:36,319 Because the Germans know all about science gone wrong 235 00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:39,319 They know not to trust scientists any more than anybody else 236 00:25:39,319 --> 00:25:46,319 They know that in their history, they essentially hold key to the conscience of ... 237 00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:51,319 And so in Germany, I mean, the Greens and the Christian Democrats and everybody in betwe... 238 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:54,319 They banned cloning in Germany ten years ago 239 00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:03,319 Also within the realm of possibilities are health risks resulting from gene mutation 240 00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:09,319 Making full-term human cloning a dangerous exercise, especially in the early research... 241 00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:15,319 While cloning may produce a perfect infant, it may also produce a child that is... 242 00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:18,319 Along with hundreds of waste embryos and fetuses 243 00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:23,319 Who is going to accept responsibility for their creation and destruction? 244 00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:30,319 Let me make one thing extremely clear 245 00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:36,319 Here I'm speaking both for the Rosman Institute and for Geron and Geron Biomed 246 00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:43,319 We do not see any justification for anyone using this technology to copy people 247 00:26:43,319 --> 00:26:49,319 To make identical copies of people or as a reproductive mechanism or technique 248 00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:53,319 We just don't think it's right and we don't think anyone should be trying it 249 00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:58,319 We think it's dangerous, but even if it was right, we think it's extremely dangerous a... 250 00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:10,319 In addition, it's feared that this technology applied to human beings would duplicate an... 251 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:13,319 Passing them down to future generations 252 00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:18,319 In other words, diversity in the gene pool would cease to exist as could the species 253 00:27:18,319 --> 00:27:24,319 If uncontrolled and unregulated cloning of full-term human beings was carried out in ... 254 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:33,319 Some other more radical possible uses of human cloning technology could in fact be... 255 00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:38,319 Should this technology be used by unscrupulous and corrupt individuals and... 256 00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:43,319 Consider for example the idea of creating a clone or a brain-dead human copy 257 00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:49,319 To use as an incubator in which to grow perfectly matched organs or tissues for... 258 00:27:49,319 --> 00:27:55,319 Or even to have a new body created in which to transplant another person's brain 259 00:27:55,319 --> 00:28:03,319 Such science fiction like scenarios, though almost too horrific to contemplate, loom j... 260 00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:14,319 The ethical discussion with somebody who was very wealthy cloned someone 261 00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:20,319 So that they were exactly the same as they were as far as immunologic factors 262 00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:24,319 And they would take organs from that person so that they could live longer 263 00:28:24,319 --> 00:28:26,319 That's the ethical consideration 264 00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:34,319 There are many ways in which medical science can advance cures and other benefits to... 265 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:40,319 The notion that it can properly do that through essentially using human beings for... 266 00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:44,319 I think is still very shocking to a lot of people and for some rather good reasons 267 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:53,319 Okay, this is the common fallacy that you would clone a millionaire or somebody woul... 268 00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:55,319 They later use it as an organ source 269 00:28:55,319 --> 00:29:00,319 I mean you can't kill people for their organs, you can't take their organs out 270 00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:06,319 A identical twin can't rip a kidney out of his brother and take it 271 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:15,319 And so that copy of the millionaire's genotype is going to have free will, pain,... 272 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,319 He's going to want to live, he's not going to want to be an organ resource 273 00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:21,319 And so it would be murder to do that 274 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:27,319 Yes, that's fun to think about or titillating to think about, but the truth is nobody's... 275 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:31,319 I mean that's appalling, that's another human being 276 00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:39,319 If such a possibility were ever to become a technological and biological reality 277 00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:43,319 It would certainly change the definition of what it means to be human 278 00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:50,319 A less contentious use for human cloning technology would be a very difficult task 279 00:29:50,319 --> 00:29:58,319 The use of human cloning technology has already brightened the horizon for people ... 280 00:29:58,319 --> 00:30:05,319 The cloning of human cells in petri dishes and test tubes to form skin and cartilage ... 281 00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:12,319 Which could make it possible to create human ears, noses and replacement skin for graft... 282 00:30:12,319 --> 00:30:19,319 In addition, there has been very promising research into the treatment of diabetes,... 283 00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:26,319 Whereby actual organ tissue may be cloned to replace a failing heart or kidney or pancr... 284 00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:36,319 There will be attempts made in the not too distant future to try to clone human organs 285 00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:47,319 Because I think all of us recognise that there are thousands of people in this coun... 286 00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:57,319 Or a kidney or a heart and I think you will see a serious attempt to clone human organs 287 00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:08,319 And I think that's a good target to have so that people who do need to have an organ... 288 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:15,319 Cloning human tissue and organs is not nearly the same as cloning a full term human being 289 00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:21,319 While the techniques and procedures are essentially the same in the beginning, the... 290 00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:28,319 At present, while this technology is not yet available, it is within sight as research... 291 00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:35,319 When we meet again in five years to talk about our progress, I think we'll be at th... 292 00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:44,319 The utility of combining cellular immortalisation with telomerase, the... 293 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:54,519 And the customisation of those cells and tissues by new methods of 294 00:31:54,519 --> 00:32:02,519 And the customisation of those cells and tissues by nuclear transfer to produce cel... 295 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:10,519 That will integrate into your dysfunctional organ and repair it and cure your... 296 00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:17,519 That would be an acceptable way of cloning 297 00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:28,519 Anything to save a human life, anything to enhance the quality of life is permissible... 298 00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:35,519 So cloning a heart or a liver or a kidney or anything that saves a person would be... 299 00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:41,519 Cloning an exact duplicate of a human being from scratch would be unacceptable 300 00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:52,519 Our interest is to take the biology inherent in cloning animals and learn how to clone... 301 00:32:52,519 --> 00:33:04,519 That's our interest, where there is a compelling medical need and no other route... 302 00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:14,519 Now the problem here is that it's a distraction from the fact or from the caus... 303 00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:24,519 It's because of poor diet, it's because of use of incredible amounts of toxic pestici... 304 00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:28,519 Technology is, however, advancing at mind-boggling speed 305 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:38,519 It appears that limited cloning may well become first a legitimate treatment as... 306 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:50,519 However, full-term human cloning would always be a prospect just beyond the horizon that... 307 00:33:50,519 --> 00:34:02,519 As another way of enticing public support for their cause, advocates of human cloning ha... 308 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:11,519 At first sight, it would not appear so, since Dolly was cloned from a 6-year-old ewe and... 309 00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:21,519 One of the interesting findings that have been published recently is the observation... 310 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:31,519 The telomeres are caps on the end of chromosomes and they're supposed to protec... 311 00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:26,940 And what we're finding is that the telomeres are not just a 312 00:34:27,940 --> 00:34:40,940 One of the interesting findings that have been published recently is the observation... 313 00:34:40,940 --> 00:34:49,940 The telomeres are caps on the end of chromosomes and they're supposed to protec... 314 00:34:49,940 --> 00:35:00,940 And what we're finding is that Dolly has inherited that life history, that her... 315 00:35:03,940 --> 00:35:15,940 With all of these foreseen and unforeseen dangers and consequences that human clonin... 316 00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:22,940 Have banned any research on human embryos or have banned government funding for any hum... 317 00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:39,940 However, some say that those scientists, politicians and religious clergy who have... 318 00:35:45,940 --> 00:35:58,940 The bioethicist movement, which began in the 1970s, attempts to bring both sides of the... 319 00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:08,940 This is done in the hope that ultimate resolutions and regulations governing such... 320 00:36:15,940 --> 00:36:26,940 My job as a bioethicist, and I think I'm a little bit different than the rest, is not... 321 00:36:27,940 --> 00:36:39,940 If you go back to test tube babies, very alarmist phrase, just like genetic... 322 00:36:39,940 --> 00:36:49,940 And it's a very good thing that they got educated. Now, 50,000 babies have been... 323 00:36:52,940 --> 00:37:05,940 When you talk about in vitro fertilization, you're still talking about the equation... 324 00:37:05,940 --> 00:37:15,940 You're not talking about actually cloning an individual from scratch where the male and... 325 00:37:15,940 --> 00:37:24,940 Once man takes the position that he can create life in his image, he becomes God... 326 00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:29,940 And when he becomes God himself, he starts to believe that he can do no wrong 327 00:37:29,940 --> 00:37:36,940 He starts to believe that he is the beginning, or she for that matter, is the... 328 00:37:36,940 --> 00:37:43,940 And we could end up destroying the world and having no human beings left on this earth 329 00:37:46,940 --> 00:37:58,940 If one takes the view that God created us and therefore that we ourselves take part in... 330 00:37:58,940 --> 00:38:05,940 The idea being that he made us and therefore if we make our others, we're just followin... 331 00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:15,940 When we break out of begetting, procreating, into manufacture, we may want to use the w... 332 00:38:15,940 --> 00:38:20,940 It's difficult to see how you can put these two kinds of creation in the same category 333 00:38:20,940 --> 00:38:33,940 As stewards of creation, this technology may well be desirable as a potential cure for ... 334 00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:38,940 But serious debate concerning the control of this technology is equally desirable 335 00:38:38,940 --> 00:38:48,940 If the moral and ethical aspects of scientific and medical technology are not... 336 00:38:48,940 --> 00:39:03,940 There are people who thought mosquitoes carried HIV, and it's a good thing we didn... 337 00:39:03,940 --> 00:39:14,940 Well, in the same way, we don't want to make public policy based on ignorant things tha... 338 00:39:15,940 --> 00:39:20,940 So we need a time for people to kind of be educated, I think 339 00:39:20,940 --> 00:39:31,940 And the word, it's even difficult to talk because the word a clone, a cloning has su... 340 00:39:31,940 --> 00:39:44,940 Plainly, we're just at the very beginning of an explosion in which we're going to be a... 341 00:39:44,940 --> 00:39:50,940 And so this is a great time to be having this conversation as we try and get a policy... 342 00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:55,940 We're developing a policy framework for these things, so the Europeans have some basic... 343 00:39:55,940 --> 00:40:01,940 Here in the States, I think we have very little of a policy understanding within wh... 344 00:40:01,940 --> 00:40:18,940 Can a line be drawn that allows scientists to continue to conduct research, make medical... 345 00:40:18,940 --> 00:40:35,940 I don't think under present, under the present state of knowledge of human geneti... 346 00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:41,940 I think that in the area of genetics, we have certain major goals that should be fulfilled 347 00:40:41,940 --> 00:40:51,940 We have an obligation, I believe, to pursue the field known as gene therapy 348 00:40:51,940 --> 00:41:04,940 In other words, the field that will be able to either alter or provide genes that will... 349 00:41:04,940 --> 00:41:12,940 And I think that the science of genetics is largely focused in that area 350 00:41:12,940 --> 00:41:27,940 Perhaps as long as the possibility exists for humans to succumb to misguided conscience,... 351 00:41:27,940 --> 00:41:37,940 We need to be sure that the scientists and the scientific community have earned our... 352 00:41:37,940 --> 00:41:54,940 And I don't see that that has happened. I don't see that the scientists have ever... 353 00:41:54,940 --> 00:42:07,940 I look at technologies that right now are also fairly new, that are being abused. Fo... 354 00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:17,940 I think that there's corruption in any field. I mean, there are great people and there a... 355 00:42:17,940 --> 00:42:34,940 I mean, I think that the society does have the concept that scientists are purer than... 356 00:42:34,940 --> 00:42:47,940 But the majority of scientists are honest, hardworking people that are just trying to... 357 00:42:47,940 --> 00:43:09,940 The question here is, can you really hold the line between negative eugenics and positiv... 358 00:43:09,940 --> 00:43:27,940 And no one's talking because no one wants to give their secrets up because there's all... 359 00:43:27,940 --> 00:43:42,940 And there's got to be some kind of context that you put this in to make it make sense... 360 00:43:42,940 --> 00:44:10,940 So there's another round of public debate and policy debate that needs to happen. We jus... 361 00:44:10,940 --> 00:44:35,940 So what came then happened as a surprise in an environment in Europe which has been ve... 362 00:44:40,940 --> 00:45:02,940 Public confidence is eroded by these odd cases. But on the other hand, what happens... 363 00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:30,940 By being very open and very honest about what you're trying to do, that there are risks,... 364 00:45:32,940 --> 00:45:55,940 For the present, heated debates will continue in the effort to arrive at a cloning... 365 00:45:55,940 --> 00:46:14,940 At the same time, there seems to be an equally universal distaste for cloning ful... 366 00:46:14,940 --> 00:46:26,940 The objections have more to do with the rights of cloned individuals and the moral... 367 00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:44,940 Given the profound implications of human cloning on the future of humanity, there's...