1 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:25,159 One of the richest sources of knowledge about man's ancient past is the art he left behind. 2 00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:30,560 In the earliest times, human beings have recorded their impressions on the walls of... 3 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:37,280 on the surfaces of pottery and stone, and in the form of sculptures. 4 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,519 But when artifacts are found which portray images of dinosaurs, are we to conclude that 5 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:48,359 man and dinosaurs lived at the same time? 6 00:01:48,359 --> 00:01:52,900 In this program, we will investigate two of the largest and most controversial... 7 00:01:52,900 --> 00:01:57,900 of artifacts ever found which show humans interacting with dinosaurs. 8 00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:04,219 The acomborou figurines of Mexico and the ecostones of Peru. 9 00:02:04,219 --> 00:02:12,740 Do these artifacts suggest that ancient artists were eyewitnesses to living... 10 00:02:12,740 --> 00:02:17,740 According to our present understanding of man's development, this is impossible. 11 00:02:17,740 --> 00:02:22,740 While dinosaurs flourished during the Jurassic period, they supposedly became... 12 00:02:22,740 --> 00:02:27,500 65 million years before man walked the earth. 13 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:32,379 The acomborou figurines and the ecostones have been investigated by some scientists 14 00:02:32,379 --> 00:02:34,180 and labeled a hoax. 15 00:02:34,180 --> 00:02:38,780 Yet others feel these investigations were superficial and inconclusive. 16 00:02:38,780 --> 00:02:43,160 They claim the collections have been unfairly judged because of the implications of man 17 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,460 and dinosaurs living together. 18 00:02:46,460 --> 00:02:52,980 As a result, both of these amazing collections of art have remained mired in... 19 00:02:52,980 --> 00:02:59,060 Now an independent archaeologist takes an unbiased look at these controversial... 20 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:15,580 and reveals the amazing story behind them. 21 00:03:15,580 --> 00:03:20,500 When the Spanish first arrived in Mexico 400 years ago, they encountered artistic 22 00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:24,860 expressions that were completely foreign to their way of thinking. 23 00:03:24,860 --> 00:03:27,780 Fantastic temples reached to the sky. 24 00:03:27,780 --> 00:03:32,460 Statues and carvings so bizarre, the conquistadores believed they could only be... 25 00:03:32,460 --> 00:03:33,460 devil. 26 00:03:33,460 --> 00:03:39,580 Today, in the town of Acomborou, a collection of clay figurines continues to baffle all 27 00:03:39,580 --> 00:03:44,260 who gaze upon them. 28 00:03:44,939 --> 00:03:49,699 The Acomborou collection, found in Mexico in the 30s and 40s and excavated in the 50s, 29 00:03:49,699 --> 00:03:51,659 is an amazing subject. 30 00:03:51,659 --> 00:03:57,780 It has over 33,500 individually made, not mole made, artifacts. 31 00:03:57,780 --> 00:04:02,899 One of the most spectacular and controversial aspects is the representations of apparent 32 00:04:02,899 --> 00:04:08,699 dinosaurs, which were presumably extinct at least 60 million years ago. 33 00:04:08,699 --> 00:04:14,579 It all began 50 years ago when an amateur archaeologist named Valdemar Yulesrud... 34 00:04:14,579 --> 00:04:19,459 a clay figurine that was unlike anything he had ever seen before. 35 00:04:19,459 --> 00:04:23,639 When Yulesrud learned that local farmers had been finding similar statues in the area 36 00:04:23,639 --> 00:04:27,099 of Bull Mountain, he began to collect them. 37 00:04:27,099 --> 00:04:31,860 He was initially puzzled by what appeared to be Egyptian and Sumerian styles among the 38 00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:33,819 growing collection. 39 00:04:33,939 --> 00:04:42,139 It includes representations of blacks, orientals, eskimo, of South American, Asia... 40 00:04:42,139 --> 00:04:46,100 animals, of bearded white faces. 41 00:04:46,100 --> 00:04:48,100 It goes on and on. 42 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:53,659 The most startling artifacts in the Acomborou collection are dozens of strange... 43 00:04:53,659 --> 00:04:54,659 figures. 44 00:04:54,659 --> 00:05:00,180 They are portrayed in a wide variety of interactions with humans, from people bein... 45 00:05:00,180 --> 00:05:07,180 the giant reptiles, to much more intimate relationships between man and beast. 46 00:05:07,180 --> 00:05:17,379 To Yulesrud, these images were tangible proof that man and dinosaurs lived at the same... 47 00:05:17,379 --> 00:05:21,899 Independent researcher John Tierney has been tracking the Acomborou mystery since he first 48 00:05:21,899 --> 00:05:25,560 saw the bizarre figurines over 40 years ago. 49 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:31,720 This Acomborou discovery is either the greatest hoax in the entire history of... 50 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,560 it is one of the greatest archaeological discoveries ever made. 51 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,939 If it's authentic, it's going to upset the orthodox concepts and timescales in many... 52 00:05:40,939 --> 00:05:41,939 of study. 53 00:05:41,939 --> 00:05:51,560 Archaeology, anthropology, zoology, history, paleontology, even psychology and religion. 54 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,759 For the people of Acomborou, the story of Valdemar Yulesrud and his fantastic... 55 00:05:56,759 --> 00:05:59,439 has become a local legend. 56 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:05,519 Over a period of 10 years, Yulesrud amassed over 33,000 clay figurines. 57 00:06:05,519 --> 00:06:13,160 I went to his house one day and it was loaded. 58 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,600 Boxes everywhere, figurines, dinosaurs. 59 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,600 It was fantastic. 60 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:19,600 I was overwhelmed. 61 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,640 I used to visit him with a friend from grammar school. 62 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:31,200 He would always let us come in and gaze at his enormous collection, his esteemed... 63 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,080 as he called it. 64 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:39,920 He extended an open invitation to anyone from our school to come and study the artifacts. 65 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,280 He led us from room to room. 66 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:45,160 He was sleeping in the bathtub at the time. 67 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,200 It was just so loaded with these artifacts. 68 00:06:49,199 --> 00:06:54,079 He would always explain to us how significant the collection was. 69 00:06:54,079 --> 00:07:00,839 We were so impressed by its enormous size and importance. 70 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:06,399 To his credit, Yulesrud never tried to commercialize or profit from the collectio... 71 00:07:06,399 --> 00:07:10,879 attracted the serious scientific attention he felt it deserved. 72 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:18,120 In 1954, the Mexican authorities sent a team of official archaeologists, four members, 73 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,560 very prominent archaeologists, to a combo. 74 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:29,000 They at the site, mind you at a site of their own choice, excavated scientifically samples 75 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,000 of these Yulesrud artifacts. 76 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:35,040 They agreed that they had to be authentic, but three weeks later they filed a report 77 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,480 claiming they could not have been authentic because of the fantastic representations 78 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,199 of dinosaurs and other creatures. 79 00:07:42,199 --> 00:07:44,840 That is where the situation has remained ever since. 80 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:50,000 This is something that has been largely ignored by the scientific community simply... 81 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,439 it's so incredible it can't be true. 82 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:58,719 The implications of this discovery are so immense that it would seem to me that anyone 83 00:07:58,719 --> 00:08:04,599 of education and intelligence would not risk until they found an answer to it. 84 00:08:04,599 --> 00:08:09,319 Tierney's challenge was accepted by Neil Steady, an archaeologist who has worked fo... 85 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:12,639 government for over 20 years. 86 00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:16,319 I am what is known as a contract archaeologist. 87 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:21,279 I'm not locked in to an established mindset. 88 00:08:21,279 --> 00:08:26,800 I've seen reports from both camps and some people claim that no, they were artifacts 89 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,120 that were created on the spot for him and they were sold to him, whereas other people 90 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:38,439 claim no, they were found in the area and they are authentic ancient artifacts. 91 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:44,680 Are these items of ancient manufacture or are they of modern manufacture? 92 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:47,680 And that's what we're going to try and judge. 93 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:52,000 The first hurdle to confront Tierney and Steady was the exact location of the fabled 94 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,000 collection. 95 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,600 There was a real concern that the entire collection could be lost. 96 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:03,320 Town councilman, Senor Ignacio Nares, recalled rumors that several old boxes of... 97 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,560 were stored in a locked room nearby. 98 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,639 Could this be the legacy of Valdemar Julesrud? 99 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:18,839 The councilman was intrigued and granted permission to investigate. 100 00:09:18,839 --> 00:09:23,379 Senor Nares and his colleagues had only recently been elected to office. 101 00:09:23,379 --> 00:09:27,679 They had never seen the entire Julesrud collection and expectations were high. 102 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:45,279 The next morning, the team was ready to enter the storeroom, but the door had been locked 103 00:09:45,279 --> 00:09:50,319 for years and the key was nowhere to be found. 104 00:09:50,319 --> 00:09:57,159 I'm not sure how long this door has been locked, but there are apparently several... 105 00:09:57,159 --> 00:10:02,079 or more, maybe ten thousand artifacts locked in this room behind us. 106 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,720 Nobody's seen this whole collection, I don't know how many years. 107 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:19,759 Finally, Senor Nares gave the order to break into the storeroom. 108 00:10:19,759 --> 00:10:27,320 The original collection was said to contain more than 33,500 figurines. 109 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:35,800 It says here something like 42 pieces, it says how many pieces, that gives you 40,000 110 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,520 pieces, a promise. 111 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,680 If that figure remains true, which of course you don't know. 112 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:55,680 According to rumor, many of the statues had gone missing, or were broken or stolen. 113 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:02,519 The idea today is to go through every artifact, however many there are, and if t... 114 00:11:02,519 --> 00:11:06,639 out to be modern renditions, that's part of the show. 115 00:11:06,639 --> 00:11:07,639 What can you say? 116 00:11:07,639 --> 00:11:10,159 What does that look like to you? 117 00:11:10,159 --> 00:11:13,839 I've never seen one. 118 00:11:13,839 --> 00:11:18,719 As the storeroom began to yield its treasures, it became clear that there were... 119 00:11:18,719 --> 00:11:21,359 of artifacts to be examined. 120 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:28,960 Bill worked methodically, categorizing the figurines by style, size, color, and subject. 121 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,000 It would take time, but he was determined to examine each and every artifact. 122 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,840 I can't believe this man has walked onto the scene. 123 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,440 He's a professional archeologist, and he's just a type of open-minded person that we've 124 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,759 been looking for over the years. 125 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:48,759 Here we have these two dinosaurs, which I suppose are representing a dimodon by the 126 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:49,759 fin. 127 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:52,480 They're interesting, they only have two front legs. 128 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,059 Were they done in the 1940s? 129 00:11:55,059 --> 00:12:00,720 If they were done in the 1940s, people knew what dinosaurs looked like, and they were 130 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,840 a fairly common item that people were aware of, and so it would be easy to make something 131 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:06,840 like this. 132 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:16,480 If they date late as 1000 AD, already we have some problems, because even at 1000 AD,... 133 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,560 that we know of had been digging up and putting together dinosaur skeletons, so ho... 134 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:22,039 they know what it looked like? 135 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:28,680 Let's suppose this artifact itself actually dated 4000 BC. 136 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:34,560 If it dated 4000 BC, it wouldn't be so much the human factor as our dinosaur factor we'd 137 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:38,920 have to bring forward, rather than pushing humans back. 138 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,399 Did man live at the time of the dinosaurs? 139 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:45,159 I personally find that very difficult to believe myself. 140 00:12:45,159 --> 00:12:51,000 I'd rather believe that some dinosaurs lived to a much later stage than we believe today. 141 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,679 What I want to know is what the truth is, and give us a scientific basis to be able 142 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,919 to substantiate that truth. 143 00:12:59,919 --> 00:13:04,539 Even with the help of volunteers, it would take four days to examine and categorize... 144 00:13:04,539 --> 00:13:06,600 statue in the store room. 145 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,000 We've now cleaned out the aisle, and it looks like, well we've got light in here now too. 146 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:20,600 We've got about, oh man, oh man look at this. 147 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,600 They didn't tell me this, there's a whole nother door here. 148 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:31,519 Oh man, there's a whole room here. 149 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:36,799 Halfway through the investigation, Neil and his team had examined over 10,000 individual 150 00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:37,799 statues. 151 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:43,240 He was beginning to form an opinion as to the authenticity of the figurines. 152 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,279 I'm having some great doubts about the large part of the collection. 153 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:52,399 I'll give you a quick example. 154 00:13:52,399 --> 00:14:00,120 This pot was made out of a piece of clay, which they formed the bowl, and then they 155 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:07,559 had a stem sticking up here, and a knife was taken, and cut four ways to create these... 156 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,719 As we examine the sides of the cut, you can see where grains of sand were dug along, 157 00:14:12,719 --> 00:14:16,679 pushed by the instrument that did the cutting. 158 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,359 That means that you had to have something that was rigid enough, such as a very hard 159 00:14:20,359 --> 00:14:27,079 plastic or in fact, metal, which would imply the civilization that did this had metal. 160 00:14:27,079 --> 00:14:32,119 And it's those types of things that are bringing up questions. 161 00:14:32,119 --> 00:14:37,379 As Neil's doubts grew, the two investigators began to differ in opinion. 162 00:14:37,379 --> 00:14:41,059 Even though I respect Neil's work, I'm going my own way. 163 00:14:41,059 --> 00:14:42,779 Neil is going his way. 164 00:14:42,779 --> 00:14:49,100 These artifacts could have been made by as many as a half a dozen different cultures, 165 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:54,259 different places at different times, for different reasons, by different methods. 166 00:14:54,259 --> 00:15:00,700 There is a civilization in the area known as Chipequoddo civilization, which flourished 167 00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:04,059 in pre-Columbian times, in fact, before Christ. 168 00:15:05,019 --> 00:15:10,339 We are finding some artifacts are of that civilization, but there seems to be a whole 169 00:15:10,339 --> 00:15:16,259 another style of artifacts that are the ones that everyone has been questioning. 170 00:15:16,259 --> 00:15:21,019 As we look among the questionable artifacts, there is this. 171 00:15:21,019 --> 00:15:25,500 It all comes apparently from one deposit, clay deposit. 172 00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:30,299 What I'm trying to do here, look for a piece of carbon. 173 00:15:30,299 --> 00:15:35,620 To obtain the age of the artifacts, Neil took small samples from two specimens, a 174 00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:39,979 primitive face and a figure resembling a dinosaur. 175 00:15:39,979 --> 00:15:44,939 These samples would be carbon dated by a professional laboratory when he returned t... 176 00:15:44,939 --> 00:15:50,139 That's going to be all I need if I can get it. 177 00:15:50,139 --> 00:15:55,019 The next test would be to try to find a figurine actually buried in the ground. 178 00:15:55,019 --> 00:15:59,059 According to the reports gathered by Tierney and others, the majority of the collection 179 00:15:59,059 --> 00:16:04,059 had been unearthed along the base of Cerro Toro, or Bull Mountain. 180 00:16:04,059 --> 00:16:08,419 They were buried in shallow pits in groups of about 20 to 40. 181 00:16:08,419 --> 00:16:13,459 It was said you could find them almost anywhere along the foot of the mountain. 182 00:16:13,459 --> 00:16:18,739 Neil consulted a map of the area and calculated the chances of finding new... 183 00:16:18,739 --> 00:16:20,899 in unexplored soil. 184 00:16:20,899 --> 00:16:28,059 With the permission of Senor Nares, the team initiated an archaeological dig. 185 00:16:28,059 --> 00:16:33,939 We moved this much earth, we have an 80% chance just to statistics of finding the 186 00:16:33,939 --> 00:16:35,579 same kind of artifacts they have. 187 00:16:35,579 --> 00:16:39,059 We're going to find, I suspect, all sorts of different stuff. 188 00:16:39,059 --> 00:16:43,339 But if we do that much, we can say, hey, the statistics tell us 80% chance. 189 00:16:43,339 --> 00:16:47,019 That's darn good chances anybody could take it in Las Vegas. 190 00:16:47,019 --> 00:16:52,939 Before long, pieces of clay statues began to appear. 191 00:16:52,940 --> 00:17:00,700 These two seem to be pot handles of legs are similar in structure as to size and structure 192 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,140 of a lot of those animals. 193 00:17:03,140 --> 00:17:05,500 There's the possibility that in fact they're related. 194 00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:09,420 What we have to demonstrate is are they the same type of pottery or not, do they date 195 00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:12,059 the same or not. 196 00:17:12,059 --> 00:17:16,460 The team worked methodically, digging and sifting down through the stratified layers 197 00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:22,340 of earth, looking for remnants of previous cultures. 198 00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:26,459 Once we set up the stratification, we can compare it with the other side where the 199 00:17:26,459 --> 00:17:27,459 machines are dug. 200 00:17:27,459 --> 00:17:28,459 Then we'll have a point of... 201 00:17:28,459 --> 00:17:29,459 Look at this one. 202 00:17:29,459 --> 00:17:30,459 Uh-oh, uh-oh. 203 00:17:30,459 --> 00:17:40,179 It looks like we found something similar to his stuff. 204 00:17:40,179 --> 00:17:45,419 We found a small artifact which looked very similar to some of the stuff that was in 205 00:17:45,419 --> 00:17:46,980 the Jewels Road collection. 206 00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:48,859 It does fit the collection. 207 00:17:48,859 --> 00:17:54,659 However, it fits the non-controversial part of the collection, not the controversial 208 00:17:54,659 --> 00:17:58,740 part, which is the dinosaur-like figures. 209 00:17:58,740 --> 00:18:04,019 After several hours, the team had excavated some interesting artifacts, but none of them, 210 00:18:04,019 --> 00:18:10,099 according to Neil, resembled the controversial artifacts in Jewels Road's... 211 00:18:10,099 --> 00:18:14,339 I think we feel that they're digging in the wrong place. 212 00:18:14,339 --> 00:18:17,099 I would say that it's the wrong spot to begin with. 213 00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:21,019 However, I say that Neil Speedy would be Neil Speedy. 214 00:18:21,019 --> 00:18:23,379 He's very adept at his business. 215 00:18:23,379 --> 00:18:25,219 He has his own reasons for choosing his site. 216 00:18:25,219 --> 00:18:31,419 I, however, would have gone directly to the old site and cast around in two spots that 217 00:18:31,419 --> 00:18:36,099 we have reason to believe could be more valuable initially. 218 00:18:36,099 --> 00:18:42,299 In the 1970s, several compelling artifacts turned up in a very unusual location. 219 00:18:42,299 --> 00:18:47,460 Jewels Road's writings had attracted the attention of a pair of unlikely... 220 00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:52,659 professor of anthropology Charles Hapgood and Earl Stanley Gardner, creator of the... 221 00:18:52,659 --> 00:18:55,139 hero Perry Mason. 222 00:18:55,139 --> 00:18:59,500 Hapgood reasoned that since the foundations of the houses on Bull Mountain were erected 223 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:05,779 on unbroken ground, no one could claim statues found under them could have been... 224 00:19:05,779 --> 00:19:09,339 There were claims made that these were being made modernly. 225 00:19:09,339 --> 00:19:15,659 So in 1955, Hapgood demonstrated that he could take them out from under a house that 226 00:19:15,659 --> 00:19:18,299 had been built 25 years previously. 227 00:19:18,299 --> 00:19:22,859 While dining in the home of a Comberos chief of police, Hapgood mentioned rumors that 228 00:19:22,859 --> 00:19:27,119 statues could be found by digging almost anywhere in the area. 229 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:32,779 He convinced his host to let him dig a hole in the hard-packed dirt floor of his home. 230 00:19:32,779 --> 00:19:41,539 He tore a hole in the cement floor of the house and dug down I don't know how far and 231 00:19:41,539 --> 00:19:45,220 eventually came up with some pretty good pieces. 232 00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:51,460 I tend to believe that if Charles Hapgood in 1955 excavated these objects through the 233 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:56,339 concrete hard floor of a house, that other houses along there must have had the same 234 00:19:56,339 --> 00:20:00,779 capabilities of production, that sort of a find. 235 00:20:00,779 --> 00:20:03,220 Neil was willing to give it a try. 236 00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:05,579 We're riding all over the old site right now. 237 00:20:05,579 --> 00:20:06,579 Is that right? 238 00:20:06,579 --> 00:20:08,899 So this may have been where they dug them up? 239 00:20:08,899 --> 00:20:13,420 Yeah, originally there was a ditch, a roaded ditch that ran down here and Jules Wood was 240 00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:17,980 riding his horse down when he discovered the first figurine. 241 00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:22,859 In an attempt to replicate Hapgood's experiment, the team located a suitable ho... 242 00:20:22,859 --> 00:20:25,099 block of the police chiefs. 243 00:20:25,099 --> 00:20:31,539 The trick would be to convince the homeowner to let them dig. 244 00:20:31,539 --> 00:20:39,379 We were trying to replicate what Hapgood did quite a few years ago and we went down 245 00:20:39,379 --> 00:20:44,339 four and a half, maybe a little bit more, on feet. 246 00:20:44,339 --> 00:20:47,879 No one else has ever excavated here. 247 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:56,240 The statistics read to us that in this large of a space, which is six foot by four foot 248 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,600 or three foot wide, we should have found at least three figurines. 249 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,880 We found several bags of shards, which we will analyze, but we found no figurines... 250 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,800 which of course is quite disappointing in relationship to the collection that we're 251 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:11,800 studying. 252 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,500 And I would say that the thing that we need to do at this time is analyze what we have 253 00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:18,440 and take it from there. 254 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:24,220 It looks as though it isn't going to fit in with the stories that we've been told about 255 00:21:24,220 --> 00:21:25,220 the collection we're studying. 256 00:21:25,220 --> 00:21:28,799 It wasn't a spot I would have selected myself. 257 00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:35,099 I would have continued to dig on the site directly above the present level of the house 258 00:21:35,099 --> 00:21:37,099 that's constructed there today. 259 00:21:37,099 --> 00:21:39,140 That's a little far afield. 260 00:21:39,140 --> 00:21:43,039 We don't know how far the objects were before. 261 00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:49,720 The house dig was within 100 feet of where Hapgood had done his house dig and found 262 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:50,720 his evidence. 263 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:56,559 Now, we leave these people with this huge hole in their patio, which we've tried to 264 00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:01,039 convince them to convert to a swimming pool now that it's there, but they've asked us 265 00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:05,799 to go ahead and fill it back in, so that we'll start doing. 266 00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:11,039 John did suggest that we dig farther up the apron at Bull Mountain. 267 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:16,279 The reason I chose not to is because observing the area where he wanted to dig,... 268 00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:24,759 at the most was a foot to two feet deep, and it was mostly made up of large rocks, six 269 00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:29,279 to eight inches, which would have long since pulverized any type of figurines which would 270 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:31,839 have been under them. 271 00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:36,460 For Neal, the last piece of the puzzle would fall into place when he received the... 272 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:38,680 analysis of his samples. 273 00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:43,840 Meanwhile, the investigation rekindled a 40-year-old debate. 274 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,000 There are many unanswered questions about this collection. 275 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:57,840 Most importantly, who could possibly have manufactured more than 33,000 figurines? 276 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,519 There was this man named Odilon Tinaghero, and he was the one, with his family and other 277 00:23:02,519 --> 00:23:06,200 artisans who began making these clay figurines. 278 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,840 Funny as it sounds, he saw a series of pictures on boxes of matches that were... 279 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:16,960 that time, the early 40s, and he copied them, copied pictures of dinosaurs and other... 280 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:17,960 animals. 281 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:18,960 Absolutely impossible. 282 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:29,960 It would take a scholar, along with a huge amount of people, to turn these out, and 283 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,759 turn them out so well. 284 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:37,960 They say that it would take thousands of years to create so many pieces, but that's 285 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:38,960 not true. 286 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,480 Here, the craftsmen can make up to a hundred, even five hundred a day. 287 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:48,559 That's a ridiculous claim that they could have been made at the rate of five hundred 288 00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:50,759 a day. 289 00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:54,839 Several months later, Neal received the test results from the lab. 290 00:23:54,839 --> 00:24:00,240 The human face was carbon dated at 4,000 years old, close to what Neal expected fro... 291 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,240 artifact. 292 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:07,759 However, the dinosaur-like figurine was dated at 1,500 years old. 293 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:14,160 Rather than solve the mystery, these test results only added fuel to the controversy. 294 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:21,680 When we dated the dinosaur-like figure, the idea was to hopefully obtain some of the... 295 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:28,279 material, such as straw, that is used many times within such a figurine to strengthen 296 00:24:28,279 --> 00:24:29,279 it. 297 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:35,240 Now, within the clay deposits itself are organic materials that were there since th... 298 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,799 of the formation of the clay deposit. 299 00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:45,359 I believe what we obtained was the date of the clay, rather than date of filler... 300 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,359 Steeding runs it both ways. 301 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,440 If the carbon-14 test shows that they're old, it's got to find some out. 302 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:58,440 The field observations, I find, a figurine that would not have lasted in the soil 1,500 303 00:24:58,600 --> 00:24:59,600 years. 304 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,600 It is a very soft-baked figurine. 305 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,519 It is very crumbly. 306 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:08,519 I don't think it would have lasted 20 years in the soil. 307 00:25:08,519 --> 00:25:14,960 All that contradiction tells me that the laboratory test has not given us a true... 308 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,240 age of the figurine in question. 309 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,360 There was no possible way, scientifically, that he could have visually determined that 310 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,720 the Jules Rueb controversial type had been made since the turn of the century. 311 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,120 I really have reached the point where I have to say that Neil Steedy seems to be the... 312 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,120 Cousseau of modern archeology. 313 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:41,120 Today, the Acombaro figurines are on display for anyone to see. 314 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:47,120 The imagination of artisans in Acombaro is extremely vivid. 315 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:51,120 If you're going to study these figurines, just look at them as part of Mexican culture 316 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:52,120 and nothing else. 317 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:57,519 It's a world-class discovery and a world-class scientific scandal. 318 00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:00,519 Let's see what happens from here on. 319 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:09,519 Peru. 320 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:15,519 Rich with mysterious landscapes, ancient ruins, and unanswered questions. 321 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,920 Hundred-ton blocks of granite fitted together with the precision of a jigsaw puzzle 322 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,920 suggest a technological capability far beyond our understanding. 323 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:32,920 Megalithic temples perched atop the Andes Mountains evoke images of another world. 324 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:38,920 The Nazca lines crisscross the desert for 20 miles with the accuracy of a laser. 325 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,920 Gigantic figures are made of one continuous line, as if drawn from the air by the finger 326 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,320 of a god. 327 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,320 Some feel the mysteries of Peru are merely the work of indigenous cultures. 328 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,320 But one man insists they are evidence of a technologically advanced civilization 329 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,320 that flourished millions of years ago. 330 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,320 He claims he has the proof of their existence. 331 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:11,320 In 1966, in the nearby town of Ica, Dr. Javier Cabrera began a collection of... 332 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,320 engraved stones. 333 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,720 Carved on these stones are images that seem impossible. 334 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,720 Skilled surgeons performing a complex heart transplant, using acupuncture. 335 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,720 Ancient pilots hovering above the ground, in a flying machine. 336 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Astronomers gazing at the stars through what appear to be telescopes. 337 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,720 According to Dr. Cabrera, these inscribed stones are records of an ancient culture 338 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,720 which was far more scientifically advanced than any we have ever imagined. 339 00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:50,319 I thought it was really far out and completely loopy and cranky, but the... 340 00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:57,319 I was profoundly attracted to them, very interested, and at the same time very... 341 00:27:57,319 --> 00:28:02,319 So I call it an intellectual shock. 342 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:08,319 I've even called it an intellectual cataclysm because it challenged my training, basically. 343 00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:14,319 Dr. Cabrera calls these 11,000 artifacts a library in stone. 344 00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:21,319 They seem to be pregnant with knowledge and meaning, but what was their meaning? 345 00:28:21,319 --> 00:28:25,319 I was completely at loss. 346 00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:30,319 While the level of technology recorded on the stones has stirred much controversy, 347 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:34,319 vivid portrayals of dinosaurs are even more disturbing. 348 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:42,319 Many of the stones accurately depict Brontosaurus, Stegosaurus, Tyrannosaurus R... 349 00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:44,319 How can this be? 350 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:50,319 According to Dr. Cabrera, these ancient scientists knew how to kill the giant... 351 00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:55,319 Dinosaurs had two major nerve centers, the brain and the pelvic ganglion. 352 00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:59,319 If either were disabled, the giant could be brought down. 353 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:05,319 Images on the Ica stones show men attacking one or the other nerve center with hand axes. 354 00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:11,319 Because the engravings on these stones show scenes of the universe and planet Earth 355 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:16,319 with the continents in significantly different positions on the globe, 356 00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:21,319 and also show plants and animals that are considered extinct today, including... 357 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:25,319 we are forced to admit that the beings depicted in these stones 358 00:29:25,319 --> 00:29:31,319 lived millions and millions of years ago, far before men were supposed to have existed. 359 00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:37,319 From a geologist's point of view, there is at least a 60-million-year gap in history 360 00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:42,319 between the demise of the dinosaurs and the appearance of man, 361 00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:45,319 or at least homo sapiens sapiens as we know it. 362 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:52,319 So it would be an enormous review, a revolution in scientific thinking 363 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:57,319 to postulate that they might have coexisted. 364 00:29:57,319 --> 00:30:02,319 For years, Dr. Cabrera has extended an open invitation to the scientific community 365 00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:05,319 in the hopes that the Ica stones would be validated. 366 00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:11,319 Many scientists are aware of the Ica stones, but most refuse to investigate them. 367 00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:20,319 Present-day men, scientific men, believe that the humanity of the 20th century is the... 368 00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:24,319 It is very hard for them to imagine that, in the past, 369 00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:30,319 there were beings with more knowledge and more intelligence, much greater beings tha... 370 00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:39,319 It polarizes people, either utter disbelief, and people say it's impossible, it's not... 371 00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:44,319 Very rarely can someone just look at them dispassionately. 372 00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:51,319 Sophia Maleska, a geomorphologist, was sponsored by the Institute of Noetic Sciences 373 00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:54,319 to conduct a preliminary study of the Ica stones. 374 00:30:54,319 --> 00:31:03,319 My wish is that archaeologists, both in Peru and abroad, would take the problem serious... 375 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:09,319 to examine it in a fresh way, unsullied by all the controversy and the polemic. 376 00:31:10,319 --> 00:31:16,319 Neil Steady, intrigued by Maleska's report, decided to visit the collection himself. 377 00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:21,319 I love dinosaurs. I would love to believe that man lived with dinosaurs. 378 00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:25,319 I'd love to believe that somebody actually could have a pet brontosaurus, 379 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:33,319 or the whole story that we see in Jurassic Park, I mean, what an adventure. I would l... 380 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:38,319 The story began when a friend gave Dr. Cabrera a stone for his birthday. 381 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:41,319 On it was inscribed the image of a fish. 382 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:48,319 Because of his training as a medical doctor, Dr. Cabrera recognized the fish as a... 383 00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:52,319 which has long been extinct. He wondered who could have made the inscription. 384 00:31:53,319 --> 00:32:03,319 The collection itself is unusual in that you have themes that are not portrayed in othe... 385 00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:15,319 There is no civilization that I know of which shows brain transplants, stomach transplan... 386 00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:24,319 In this series of stones, according to Dr. Cabrera, we see details of an advanced... 387 00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:30,319 In the first stone, a pregnant woman is reclining with a tube attached to her arm. 388 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:34,319 This tube is removing blood which is passed to a small bottle. 389 00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:38,319 The bubbles indicate that a chemical exchange is taking place. 390 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:44,319 According to Dr. Cabrera, a hormone is being filtered out and the blood returned to the... 391 00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:52,319 This hormone, which only pregnant women have, is an anti-rejection hormone, which natura... 392 00:32:53,319 --> 00:33:00,319 In the last stone of the series, the new heart is irrigated with this hormone and... 393 00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:07,319 It is obvious that these beings were depicting the many technological feats the... 394 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:12,319 such as the unusual flying machines shown in some of these stones. 395 00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:18,319 In these stones, ancient pilots are riding in a craft which resembles a bird. 396 00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:22,319 In some drawings, these flying machines are hovering over dinosaurs, 397 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,319 while the co-pilot seems to be observing the heavens through a telescope. 398 00:33:27,319 --> 00:33:32,319 In many of the Eco-stones, men seem to be gazing at stars and comets. 399 00:33:32,319 --> 00:33:39,319 Dr. Cabrera believes that they were recording the comet which crashed to Earth and cause... 400 00:33:39,319 --> 00:33:46,319 They do have a similar art style which makes them look like they all should be grouped... 401 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:51,319 After collecting and studying these amazing artifacts for almost 30 years, 402 00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:57,319 Dr. Cabrera has a fascinating interpretation of what this ancient library means. 403 00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:07,319 You can see by the very large brain capacity of the beings depicted in these stones tha... 404 00:34:07,319 --> 00:34:15,319 Present day man who thinks he discover all knowledge is not as intelligent as the man... 405 00:34:19,319 --> 00:34:28,319 These stones carry a message, a fundamental message left by an advanced race of humans... 406 00:34:29,319 --> 00:34:35,319 They themselves faced a catastrophic demise and they told their story the only way the... 407 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:44,320 by inscribing images of their world on stones, teaching the next human race how t... 408 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:55,320 The problem with the reasoning that Dr. Cabrera uses is that he says the message... 409 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,320 And the problem with that is there is no scientific reasoning there. 410 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,320 What we are looking to judge at this moment is the antiquity of the stones. 411 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,320 The reading will make no difference as far as proving the antiquity. 412 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,320 Proving the age of the Ica stones is more difficult than one might assume. 413 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:19,320 There is no scientific test that can accurately date when a stone was carved. 414 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,320 If you date the stone itself, what are you dating? The age of the stone. 415 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,320 The age of the stone. The stone could have been made 20 million years ago. 416 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,320 And so the stone will date 20 million years old. 417 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,320 So what we are more interested in is the patina that covers the stone. 418 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:44,320 The patina will be the oxidation or the aging that sometimes made up of algae and not ju... 419 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,320 The proof of antiquity is elementary. 420 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:56,320 I did laboratory tests at the University of Lima, the University of Bonn in Germany. 421 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,320 And I also sent samples to Joseph E. Brunridge of NASA. 422 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:10,320 All came to the conclusion that the engravings in these stones are covered wit... 423 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:24,320 If we have a stone that has this patina and you etch something into it, as is done on ... 424 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,320 You can pick any stone you want and do whatever analysis you want on it. 425 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,320 Neil took two of the stones for further study. 426 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:40,320 Although there were many artifacts to examine, the most important element in... 427 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,320 The context in which the artifacts were found. 428 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:55,320 The river Ica, several years ago, flooded its banks and washed away a new area, opening ... 429 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:04,320 Some of the treasure hunters of Ocucaje discovered the cave and when they went... 430 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:13,320 They brought the stones to Ica and the people of Ica thought, they are not real, they ar... 431 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,320 Dr. Cabrera has stated that there was a cave and in fact that he has been to the cave. 432 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:24,320 He described the interior of the cave and the contents of the cave. 433 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,320 Therefore, it has become a very real cave in our discussions. 434 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,320 However, what is the evidence of the cave? 435 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:41,320 The only evidence of the cave are not photographs, are not maps, are not picture... 436 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,320 It's Dr. Cabrera's work. 437 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:51,320 Despite Neil's numerous requests to see the cave for himself, Dr. Cabrera refused to... 438 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,320 I sincerely hope that no one reveals the location of the cave. 439 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:06,320 I hope with all my soul that it's not found by people looking merely for archaeologica... 440 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,320 This would be a great mistake. 441 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,320 We would lose all the marvellous material that is there now. 442 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:20,320 It would be dispersed around the world and the sense of the messages on these stones... 443 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,320 Dr. Cabrera is understandably very cautious about it and I think he's right 444 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:33,320 because only when a team of archaeologists, Peruvian and possibly American or an... 445 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:42,320 is ready to go there to check it out should that be done because otherwise too much... 446 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:50,320 and then it would cover all the scientific data that might come from a pure find. 447 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:59,320 The desert town of Ococaje has long been known for the grave robbers or Huacarros w... 448 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,320 Neil reasoned that if Huacarros had originally found the cave, maybe they coul... 449 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:11,320 Rumour had it that someone had unearthed a new cache of Ica stones from an ancient... 450 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,320 A midnight meeting was arranged. 451 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,320 The Huacarros claimed the stones were found beneath the decaying remains of a mummy, 452 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,320 suggesting they could be at least hundreds of years old. 453 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,320 But once again, the context of these artefacts could not be verified. 454 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:33,320 Grave robbers rarely admit the source of their discoveries for fear of arrest. 455 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,320 I need some type of hard evidence. 456 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,320 We have the artefacts out of context. 457 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:48,320 Not knowing how they were placed in context originally, that is all the surrounding... 458 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,320 then we don't have any idea what goes with them. 459 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,320 So we have to judge the artefacts by themselves. 460 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,320 So to say they're found in a cave is irrelevant. 461 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,320 It doesn't matter where they're found, they're now out of a cave, out of context. 462 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:10,320 At the museum in Ica, many remnants of ancient cultures are on display, 463 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,320 but noticeably missing from their shelves are inscribed stones. 464 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,320 Neil learned why from Peruvian archaeologist Fernando Herrera. 465 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,320 The inscribed stones in the museum are kept away from public view 466 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,320 because of the controversy surrounding Dr. Cabrera's Ica stones. 467 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:33,320 Mr. Herrera offered a rare glimpse of these controversial artefacts to his fellow... 468 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:44,320 The authentic stones found in Ica tombs are much lighter and have quite a different... 469 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,320 than do the stones there in Dr. Cabrera's collection. 470 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:55,320 True, they portray for the most part domestic animals and some non-domestic animals of t... 471 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:02,320 but the style on it is they have a lot finer workmanship on them 472 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:08,320 and the cuts aren't nearly as deep or as brusque as they are on the Cabrera stones. 473 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:17,320 My view is that we have again a very complex picture of a core of ancient stones 474 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,320 created by a very sophisticated ancient culture. 475 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:27,320 And then layers upon layers like cultural stratas of other cultures 476 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:40,320 who just copied what the ancient peoples did or developed it their own ways up to quite... 477 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,320 The investigation seemed to be at an impasse. 478 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,320 If no one would reveal the location of the cave, perhaps there was another road to take. 479 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,320 Neal's path led to the door of Basilio Achulla. 480 00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:02,320 We took these two stones to one of the people that claims to have fabricated the stones ... 481 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,320 And by surprise we showed them and said, do you recognize these? 482 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:10,320 He goes, oh yeah, I did those about ten years ago among a series of them. 483 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,320 And when asking them to describe other stones that he did at that time period, 484 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,320 he described the stones that were on either side above and below these same artifacts. 485 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,320 For a long time I was working in the fields and it was a lot of hard work. 486 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,320 When I first saw some of the ceramic pieces of the engines, I started copying them to... 487 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:40,320 Then I saw that it could be done in stone also, so I started looking for soft stones... 488 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,320 Doing that was much easier than working in the fields. 489 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,320 I've brought Dr. Cabrera about 11,000 stones, but he also has some real ones. 490 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,320 Do you have any idea how many? 491 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,320 I don't know, maybe about 5,000. 492 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:09,320 After speaking to several people in Ocucaje, we find that we have quite a few artisans ... 493 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:15,320 and in fact, as a summation, all of the stones that are in Dr. Cabrera's collection. 494 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,320 Dr. Cabrera admits that many of the stones have been faked to sell to tourists. 495 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:25,320 However, he maintains that all the stones in his collection are real. 496 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,320 If any fake stones exist today, it is only a recent occurrence. 497 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:38,320 It is only now that they have become famous, now that the whole world, including people... 498 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,320 have learned what is inscribed on these stones. 499 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:49,320 But I can easily tell which are real and which are copies by how they are engraved. 500 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:56,320 The engravings on a recent stone, a fake stone, they don't have the patina in the... 501 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,320 This allows us to tell whether the stone is ancient or recent. 502 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,320 From what we were told in the field, 503 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:14,320 Dr. Cabrera himself brought drawings out to people and said, this is the drawing I wan... 504 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:21,320 Dr. Cabrera doesn't know the origin of the stones they bring him. He doesn't know I'm... 505 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:28,320 The whole thing calls for great caution because one has to differentiate very... 506 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:35,320 between the core of ancient stones and the modern curios that are being done for... 507 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:42,320 The question with the Cabrera stones, of course, is that it has what appears to be ... 508 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:48,320 except the bottom of the grooves of the carved grooves on each stone. 509 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,320 It should have aged fairly evenly, and it hasn't. 510 00:44:54,320 --> 00:45:00,320 For myself, I'm not sorry that I've chosen this difficult path, 511 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:06,320 but I realize that by taking this path I've brought suffering upon my family. 512 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,320 I have hurt them. 513 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:14,320 But when a man comes to hold a certain conviction of the truth he has discovered,... 514 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,320 Defend it even to the death necessary. 515 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,320 Mine wouldn't be the only case in history, the case of Javier Cabrera. 516 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,320 There are many, many parallels throughout the history of science. 517 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:34,320 It is true, of course, that I can be judged as a man who preferred science to his own... 518 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:43,320 But I know that there will be a day when my children's pain will turn to happiness. 519 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:51,320 You can never have such happiness if you haven't gone through the pain of defending... 520 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,320 I'd buy that, if you can show me the evidence. 521 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,320 You can tie me up so that I can take no notes. 522 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,320 You can blindfold me. 523 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,320 You can hold me at gunpoint all the way there. 524 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:12,320 Take as long as you want to to get there, so that I can't remember which turns as I'm... 525 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,320 I will put my life in your hands. 526 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:25,320 And then when we get there, you undo my eyes, I take some pictures, and then I leave... 527 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,320 But that couldn't be done. 528 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,320 Why couldn't it be done? I never got a good answer. 529 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:39,320 Of course, I think the obvious answer, and I have come to believe the obvious answer, i... 530 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:46,320 Until we go back to the source, the origin of the Ica Stones, we won't ever know for sure. 531 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:54,320 And I feel that the scientific establishment need to take them seriously enough to a... 532 00:46:54,320 --> 00:47:01,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the I... 533 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:08,320 Their sources may never be revealed, and the authenticity of these collections never... 534 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:16,320 But if anomalous evidence is simply ignored, valuable knowledge about the history of ma... 535 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:23,320 Very recently I was speaking to a couple of colleagues at a convention, and the... 536 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,320 why would anyone waste their time doing this type of stuff? 537 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:32,320 And the answer to those colleagues simply is, because you won't. 538 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,320 Someone needs to. Someone needs to be not afraid to go into the stuff that is... 539 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:42,320 And to my colleagues, I'd like to say, don't be afraid. It doesn't hurt. 540 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:09,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 541 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:14,320 And I feel that the scientific establishment need to take them seriously enough to a... 542 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:19,320 And I feel that the scientific establishment need to take them seriously enough to a... 543 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 544 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:36,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 545 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:37,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 546 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:38,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 547 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:39,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 548 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 549 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 550 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:42,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 551 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the... 552 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:44,320 The Acombero figurines are said to have been found at the foot of a mountain, and the...